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[BobFromPikeCreek]

Would there honestly be this much hate directed toward the game if it wasn't called Banjo Kazooie?

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

wtf
How did I NOT have the right to expect a sequel, erroneously or not?

You're getting a sequel. But you don't get to demand that it be exactly the same kind of game as the first. It's not BK 3. BK: Blank.

 

[soco]

The formula worked fantastically. I don't get why Banjo and Kazooie need vehicles. And this has been said many times before, but this would have worked better as a new IP. There is absolutely no reason this style of gameplay had to feature Banjo and Kazooie. I can see how some people find the vehicle building/customization thing cool, but it's not for me. I just don't get what the downside of creating a new IP for this gameplay mechanic, and then doing a more tradtional BK would be.

it would only have worked 'fantastically' for some bit of time. many people probably would've found it dated. Why did Mario need to go to space or get a water pack or Yoshi?. in each case he retained only some of his moves. the powerups that had most of his moves got changed for the large part and added some different ones. if this hadn't have happened, only a handful of fans would likely still be around.

the downside is that any new IP isn't as easily recognizable. it doesn't instantly have millions of people who played the original two and want an evolution of the series.

 

[Sydle]

And just to point out, Jak & Daxter already had a level DEDICATED to a vehicle and liberal use in the game already.

Are you talking about the dune buggies in the desert? I suppose the Hopper is relative, using it to jump those island chains, but otherwise it comes nowhere near the level of innovation seen in Banjo.

 

[Zozz]

The comparisons with Mario are so stupid. First of all all those changes never truly changed the platforming action. No Mario has caused such a shift in the genre Sunshine almost did but as in the different step as Banjo.

 

[FightyF]

Heh, I totally missed the point that Yoshi was essentially a platforming vehicle for Mario that gave him extra abilities as well.

 

[Nicktals]

That's not besides the point at all. It's a new approach to the gameplay, in which the focus is greater freedom, and a new take on the 'abilities.' If you don't like the direction, that's perfectly fine. But there's no reason to dislike the game simply 'because it's not exactly like the other BK games' because it's more in line than it departs from it.

The 'abilities'? What new ability does kazooie have? Banjo? What can they do? Not what can their vehicles do. What can they do?

And yeah it has more in line than it departs. Because they shoehorned this franchise into this gameplay mechanic. This is not a natural fit for Banjo and Kazooie, based on what they established the franchise to be about in the first two games.

 

[Costanza]

Just read the CVG preview... this game is gonna be soooo good.

 

[Sydle]

The comparisons with Mario are so stupid. First of all all those changes never truly changed the platforming action. No Mario has caused such a shift in the genre Sunshine almost did but as in the different step as Banjo.

If you look past the vehicles, the underlying mechanics of the Banjo series are fully intact.

 

[Zozz]

Heh, I totally missed the point that Yoshi was essentially a platforming vehicle for Mario that gave him extra abilities as well.

But it was not centered so much around it, Yoshi was essentially something that Mario could do by itself, they just needed a character.

 

[Link Man]

We have seen VERY little of how the levels are designed from a gameplay perspective.
There is no way to assume the level design doesn't compliment the new game mechanic.

Yes, but I was asking why the level design couldn't be made to better compliment the 'traditional' gameplay mechanic.

It's like they have a bland level, and instead of saying, "Hey, let's make the level more interesting to traverse," they're saying, "Hey, let's leave the level as it is, but give the player more abilities."

But this is just going off that quote. I'm arguing about the philosophy of the matter, not the implementation.

 

[DjangoReinhardt]

There are some interesting ideas. I have no faith in Rare's ability to pull them off, though.

 

[CowboyAstronaut]

Would there honestly be this much hate directed toward the game if it wasn't called Banjo Kazooie?

The game would probably be welcomed with open arms if it was published by Nintendo or Sony. Then it would be "cool and creative"

Anyway, to say I'm excited about the concept of this game is an understatement. This game will live and die based on how well Rare constructs the levels to be taken advantage of the various vehicle creations that people will come up with.

There has to be a challenge there, probably nothing too extreme but challenging nonetheless, that really forces people to use their heads in order to come up with a way to properly advance in the level. After learning what I learned about Banjo today I'm coming away far more interested and excited about the possibilities in the next upcoming Banjo game than I could've ever hoped to have been were the game to be exactly like it's predecessors.

 

[MisterHero]

I understand wanting more of the same. What I don't understand is how there is a double standard.

There is no double standard. You're going "Nintendo fanboys lulz" because the first two games happened to be on the N64.

Personally I admired BK for what it did with the SM64 formula. Waiting 10 years to see how far they could go in that direction is exciting but what came out is not what fans were expecting and they're going to have to adjust to that.

Why is it that you'd rather call them fanboy viewpoints rather than understand where they're coming from? Because MS/Rare's pride might get hurt? *rolls eyes*

It seems they are content with what they are doing. All they have to do is reassure the fans of the original games. Release more media showing non-vehicle gameplay, or something.

The game would probably be welcomed with open arms if it was published by Nintendo or Sony. Then it would be "cool and creative"

If it were a Nintendo-published game they probably wouldn't like the framerate stutters, or the apparent complexity of the Vehicle-builder.

If it were a Nintendo-published game I would be just as honest with these concerns because I don't expect such issues with Nintendo games.

Don't get me wrong, the idea is fantastic, but there's more than just having the idea to get people to like it.

 

[AniHawk]

Did Mario really need a waterpack?

I do remember playing SMS thinking, "why did they need to make a buddy-platformer out of Mario?" The best levels were the ones without FLUDD anyway. Galaxy's level design moved closer towards the older games' A-Z progression than any other 3D game (except SMS's FLUDDless levels). And SMS wasn't exactly praised around here either.

Why did Mario need to go to space or get a water pack or Yoshi?.

Now Yoshi is an interesting case:

Sidetracking just a little, when Miyamoto-san got Mario to ride Yoshi in Super Mario World, the thinking behind that idea was "functional". What I mean is that the SNES was a console which didn't allow a lot of sprites (the technical mechanism that allows graphics to be displayed on the screen) to be lined up on-screen at the same time. To explain why Yoshi ended up looking like that, it's because that shape allows you to limit the number of sprites lined up on screen when Mario and Yoshi are overlapping. You'll understand if you take a look at the original blueprint that Yoshi was designed purely from a functional point of view. So the reason Yoshi ended up being a dinosaur is not because we wanted Mario to ride a dinosaur. Rather, it was because something like a dinosaur was the shape which was allowed by the technical limitations.

I think this is also somewhat true of the first Banjo-Kazooie. I don't know if there are any interviews available of that game's design progression, but I think the characters were originally made to be functional. I doubt they designed a bird and bear combo team and built a game around that second. Because the characters were already pretty functional, the vehicles feel redundant, and Nuts and Bolts looks like it's really an original game but it slaps on a known IP so it will sell.

As long as it stays away from crap that plagued Jak II (world too big, too many races, etc), I think it'll be fine. The LEGOish aspect actually has me really interested in playing the game. I can see where some people are disappointed or cautious though.

 

[Teknoman]

Wow this thread really turned into something crazy. I tell you what, I had really no interest in Banjo before today's videos and now I really want to play it. I'm not a huge fan of pure platformers. The creative aspect of this game has really caught my attention, though. I think it looks brilliant and I can't wait to fuck some people up in MP when I attach those giant springs to the side of my vehicle! Good job, Rare. Now knock my socks off with a new Perfect Dark.

Wait what? There is multiplayer in this game?

 

[Gribbix]

I'm not sure if these have been posted yet, but here are three new screenshots from Famitsu:

 

[Ariexv]

Wait what? There is multiplayer in this game?

8 Player(I think) with several different game mods.... track racing, objective to objective racing, a King of the hill type thing, and a few others.

 

[MaizeRage25]

You know what I hate about this place? No one is ever happy.

Take Gears 2. Game looks great, but people complain because it looks just like the original. Same thing with Halo 3. Posters on here say, 'Oh, looks like Halo 2 in HD'. I could go on.

Then, Rare shows the new Banjo game and people are pissed because it's nothing like the original. Same thing happened with Burnout Paradise. OH NO, it's open world this game is going to suck. Guess what, that game turned out great.

Face it, most people on here just like to bitch and complain. It's like a bunch of damn 5 year olds post here.

I'm going to the freaking OT.

 

[CowboyAstronaut]

Well I've officially given up who cares I'll just enjoy learning more about this new Banjo game.

People are way too close-minded to see the possibilities of this game and are acting as if the game has been taking in a direction totally different from the previous games effectively losing it's entire identity.

I look forward to seeing this game in a more advanced state later on.

 

[JordoftheDead]

How can anyone hate on ths?! It's a platformer built on the idea of user-generated content. You could go through this game multiple times and probably solve every problem differently each time. That's fuck awesome.

Second.

 

[RattleHead_]

I'm not sure if these have been posted yet, but here are three new screenshots from Famitsu:
*sexy pics*

Awesome, it looks so good.

 

[Sydle]

Yes, but I was asking why the level design couldn't be made to better compliment the 'traditional' gameplay mechanic.

It's like they have a bland level, and instead of saying, "Hey, let's make the level more interesting to traverse," they're saying, "Hey, let's leave the level as it is, but give the player more abilities."

But this is just going off that quote. I'm arguing about the philosophy of the matter, not the implementation.

huh? The levels are made to compliment the vehicles. It's silly to think the implementation of vehicles were a product of the level design.

 

[tak]

Puzzle pieces!

 

[Nicktals]

it would only have worked 'fantastically' for some bit of time. many people probably would've found it dated. Why did Mario need to go to space or get a water pack or Yoshi?. in each case he retained only some of his moves. the powerups that had most of his moves got changed for the large part and added some different ones. if this hadn't have happened, only a handful of fans would likely still be around.

the downside is that any new IP isn't as easily recognizable. it doesn't instantly have millions of people who played the original two and want an evolution of the series.

And you know, there's a lot of information to answer you questions about Mario. I'll just say this: All of mario's abilities are designed around the gameplay. They wanted Mario to be able to have some vertical ability, so they put the rocket boost on the water back. They wanted to solve the camera problems of 3D platformers, so they went with spherical objects (there are many other documented reasons for this as well).

This game feels like the gameplay was designed around the vehicles/'abilities', and not the other way around. Which you really can't argue, because that's almost always the case of 'open' games like this.

EDIT: Also, no one has answered my question. Why did Banjo and Kazooie need vehicles? They could fly, swim, run quickly, jump high. I don't get how people can argue that vehicles are an evolution and not a departure.

Also, I'm all for evolution. But this is not an evolution. This is a departure. Banjo was never about vehicles, or manipulation of vehicles. It was about adventure and platforming. Solely. With linear solutions to the objectives at hand.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

I'm not sure if these have been posted yet, but here are three new screenshots from Famitsu:

pics

These pics are gorgeous.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Well I've officially given up who cares I'll just enjoy learning more about this new Banjo game.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. Just wait until the shock wears off.

 

[Teknoman]

HA! Kazooie abilities!

 

[Sydle]

Also, I'm all for evolution. But this is not an evolution. This is a departure. Banjo was never about vehicles, or manipulation of vehicles. It was about adventure and platforming. Solely. With linear solutions to the objectives at hand.

0_o

Then what was all the manipulation of Banjo's form to an ant, dinosaur, washing machine, bee, alligator, delivery truck, etc? You had to change into those through Mumbo and Humba Wumba to complete objectives. Those were the vehicles.

This is the exact same mechanic except you get to build the form you need to complete the objective. It is an evolution of the mechanic. You are wrong.

EDIT: In addition, starting with Banjo-Tooie, there was a heavy mechanical aspect to the series. It's a good fit.

 

[op_ivy]

HA! Kazooie abilities!

what is going on in this shot?

 

[TheKingsCrown]

Hmm. I am undecided on this. However, i can't read an 11 page thread right now. Is it even legal for Rare to use that Mario thing in their trailer?

 

[soco]

I think this is also somewhat true of the first Banjo-Kazooie. I don't know if there are any interviews available of that game's design progression, but I think the characters were originally made to be functional. I doubt they designed a bird and bear combo team and built a game around that second. Because the characters were already pretty functional, the vehicles feel redundant, and Nuts and Bolts looks like it's really an original game but it slaps on a known IP so it will sell.

it is redundant, i agree, but to me that's the underlying point. you've changed what the animations are but the core gameplay is going to be the same. who cares if the characters changed so long as you're doing the same basic things, the same humour still exists, and you're still having fun?

btw, that iwata story he has there sounds like he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about; it doesn't really make that much sense. i have to believe that it's horribly translated. you're not saving any sprites in the way that it's implemented as Yoshi ends up being a sprite as well.

 

[RattleHead_]

what is going on in this shot?

Looks like a roll/spin attack.

 

[Sydle]

what is going on in this shot?

What's going on in this shot is all the people bitching about Kazooie not being used just got seriously owned.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Looks like a roll/spin attack.

Kinda looks like Kazooie is about to do an overhead smash with a Mumbo key/wand thing.

 

[Salmonax]

If you look past the vehicles, the underlying mechanics of the Banjo series are fully intact.

It's true - and who knows how they're going to streamline things before the game comes out? For all we know, they might even put all the mechanics in Banjo's backpack and make them accessible at any time with a button combination.

 

[Nicktals]

0_o

Then what was all the manipulation of Banjo's form to an ant, dinosaur, washing machine, bee, alligator, delivery truck, etc? You had to change into those through Mumbo and Humba Wumba to complete objectives.

This is the exact same mechanic except you get to build the form you need to complete the objective. It is an evolution of the mechanic. You are wrong.

Let's limit this conversation to BK1, since I felt BT was a bit too much. Too much focus on shooting, switching characters, etc...I haven't played BT in years, whereas I've logged hundreds of hours on BK, and replayed it last month.

Changing Banjo into an ant, crocodile, etc...was there to change up the gameplay for a (usually short), limited amount of time. It gave Banjo a new set of limited abilities, each character with certain set attributes that were used to solve certain set puzzles/obstacles. I don't like these 'open' games, with limitless solutions. I like the designers to design creative, moving puzzles with one or two possible solutions, using the moves they have created.

Also, what machine can I build that will shoot underpants? Or which one will I create so that I don't freak out the other crocodiles? Each form of Banjo was a new character. Now it's just a different machine. And will any of these machines make me smaller? BK was about Banjo and Kazooie. Not about building/editing machines.

 

[The Hermit]

Would there honestly be this much hate directed toward the game if it wasn't called Banjo Kazooie?

No.
This is the thing ,most people expected a similar game as Bk 1 or 2 (which I though it was a far cry from the original) and apparently they got someting quite diferent.

I think that we have seen too little to conclude anything at all, and that the people that are already hating it are wrong, but jumping at the jugular of said people is much worse.

 

[JordoftheDead]

These pics are gorgeous.

It is a beautiful looking game.

 

[DjangoReinhardt]

You know what I hate about this place? No one is ever happy.

Take Gears 2. Game looks great, but people complain because it looks just like the original. Same thing with Halo 3. Posters on here say, 'Oh, looks like Halo 2 in HD'. I could go on.

Then, Rare shows the new Banjo game and people are pissed because it's nothing like the original. Same thing happened with Burnout Paradise. OH NO, it's open world this game is going to suck. Guess what, that game turned out great.

Face it, most people on here just like to bitch and complain. It's like a bunch of damn 5 year olds post here.

I'm going to the freaking OT.

I can't believe that 34,000 people, who come from a variety of socioeconomic backgrounds across the world, refuse to come to consensus!

 

[icecream]

I felt BT was a bit too much. Too much focus on shooting, switching characters, etc...

I don't like these 'open' games, with limitless solutions.

This pretty much explains why you have trouble seeing BK3 as an evolution of the series. You're still wishing for a different BK2.

 

[WordAssassin]

I'm not sure if these have been posted yet, but here are three new screenshots from Famitsu:

Would you fucking look at that! BANJO AND KAZOOIE OUTSIDE A CAR. AND KAZOOIE IS USING SOME KIND OF AN ATTACK.

BLOW MY FUCKING MIND.

 

[MisterHero]

What's going on in this shot is all the people bitching about Kazooie not being used just got seriously owned.

wow I didn't expect that people learn more when more media came out!

I think MS should've seen that coming rather than just have minimal footage of one new feature and causing their fans to fly off the handle.

But what's done is done. Let's look forward to even more media!

 

[PhatSaqs]

Would you fucking look at that! BANJO AND KAZOOIE OUTSIDE A CAR. AND KAZOOIE IS USING SOME KIND OF AN ATTACK.

BLOW MY FUCKING MIND.

:lol

 

[Nicktals]

This pretty much explains why you have trouble seeing BK3 as an evolution of the series. You're still wishing for a different BK2.

I liked BT. Just not nearly as much as the first.

Also, going from linear solutions ---> open solutions is a departure for the series.

 

[HK-47]

You can be disappointed all you want. But he said "What right do YOU have to expect a sequel?"

The answer is none. Not unless you make it yourself.

My money that I'm willing to give Rare based on whether or not I like the game says I do...

 

[nincompoop]

Are you talking about the dune buggies in the desert? I suppose the Hopper is relative, using it to jump those island chains, but otherwise it comes nowhere near the level of innovation seen in Banjo.

I think he's talking about how people complain about vehicles being added to Jak 2 while ignoring the fact that the zoomerator vehicle played a major role in Jak 1.

 

[Illuminati]

Would you fucking look at that! BANJO AND KAZOOIE OUTSIDE A CAR. AND KAZOOIE IS USING SOME KIND OF AN ATTACK.

BLOW MY FUCKING MIND.

Inside this mess of a game there is a Banjo and Kazooie game trying to escape.

 

[Alaskanbullworm]

I haven't seen this posted yet, but here's the storyline for Banjo-Kazooie (and if it did, then whoopsies). Straight from the Rare website.

It's been a long time coming, but Banjo and Kazooie are back in action - and so, to their exasperation, is dedicated arch-foe Gruntilda. The stakes have been raised, and Grunty's out to redevelop Spiral Mountain into tower blocks and shopping malls. Banjo and Kazooie's future is on the line!

Tired of the feuding between bear, bird and witch, a new player has stepped in: the mysterious Lord of Games (LOG), said to have been involved in creating every videogame ever released. He whisks the rivals away to his creative HQ in Showdown Town, and into an elaborate series of challenges held within his hand-made worlds. The winner gets the ownership deeds to Spiral Mountain, the loser an eternity of toil in LOG's videogame factory. The game is on!

However, things are a bit different this time around. The core gameplay mechanic - and the method by which worlds are traversed, challenges tackled and progress made - is the creation and customisation of vehicles, using components found, bought and won throughout Showdown Town. From wheels and weapons to springs and wings, all of which can be combined in any number and style, there's a staggering level of experimentation and personalisation for those willing to dabble. If you can imagine it, you can probably build it. But any adventurer with less confidence, experience or time on their hands can still jump in and take on the game with a pre-built range of vehicles. The Lord of Games might be heavy-handed, but he's big on equal opportunities.

However, it's not all change in Banjo-Kazooie country, as Banjo will still compete for Jiggies to unlock new destinations and hoard the musical notes that serve as legal tender. Familiar figures on hand to help include everyone's favourite shaman down at Mumbo's Motors and newly appointed tourist information officer Bottles; new faces on the block include porcine police chief Pikelet and overly competitive braggart Trophy Thomas. Outside Showdown Town you might just meet them all again, persuaded by LOG to turn thespian and act out hilarious themed roles in different worlds. You'll also have to take on Grunty's shiny army of mechanical Gruntbots, riding roughshod over Banjo's efforts to save the day.

For the first time in the Banjo universe there's also the opportunity to go online with players across your own world. Combine this with the riveting new solo adventure, and it looks like 2008 really will be the Year of the Bear. You might want to book a seat. When the comedy rattles and clanks die down, the garage door rolls up and Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts finally purrs into view, you'll be glad you did.

Sets it up quite nicely, and it sounds like there might be some kind of Bear-Bird personal time before LOG steps in.

Now the LOG speculation begins...

 

[Sydle]

Let's limit this conversation to BK1, since I felt BT was a bit too much. Too much focus on shooting, switching characters, etc...I haven't played BT in years, whereas I've logged hundreds of hours on BK, and replayed it last month.

Changing Banjo into an ant, crocodile, etc...was there to change up the gameplay for a (usually short), limited amount of time. It gave Banjo a new set of limited abilities, each character with certain set attributes that were used to solve certain set puzzles/obstacles. I don't like these 'open' games, with limitless solutions. I like the designers to design creative, moving puzzles with one or two possible solutions, using the moves they have created.

Also, what machine can I build that will shoot underpants? Or which one will I create so that I don't freak out the other crocodiles? Each form of Banjo was a new character. Now it's just a different machine. And will any of these machines make me smaller? BK was about Banjo and Kazooie. Not about building/editing machines.

I'm biting my tongue...I'm biting my tongue...I'm biting my...

Anywho, this is the mechanic of having a limited set of abilities to solve a problem, but the limit is of your design. That is evolution. I'm not even going to argue your dislike of "open" games, because it's a really poor attempt to justify your disposition.

Do you even need to shoot underpants or have to be careful about not freaking out crocodiles? Do you need to be smaller? The game is designed around the availability of parts rather than the availability of character forms. It IS the same mechanic, but has far, far more potential.

It's still about Banjo-Kazooie, they're just in a new situation with some new toys.