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[abacab driver]

In regards to that quote, I must ask: why not make the journey more fun by using clever level design, rather than introducing a new mechanic?

We have seen VERY little of how the levels are designed from a gameplay perspective.
There is no way to assume the level design doesn't compliment the new game mechanic.

 

[kbear]

because merging two already existent gameplay mechanics doesn't really brings any freshness in my opinion..it just covers a lack of creativity

I might be wrong, but then again, everyone else in this thread as well, George included

What do you consider new and refreshing then? I'd like to hear a few examples.

 

[Sydle]

At first sight, I was skeptical, but after both watching the Kotaku video and reading the Wired, IGN, and 1UP previews, I'm more excited than ever. The level of creativity involved in standard play of the game is astonishing: this seems to me the best application of "puzzles" in games yet.

I just can't help but revel in the idea! Need to reach a tough spot? Develop a vehicle that can get there, hop out, traverse the remaining platforms, and arrive at your destination. But developing said vehicle is where the creative challenge blooms -- the game screams ingenuity on the fan's behalf and on the developer's behalf. Rare, if you can polish up the environments, and tighten the "nuts and bolts" of the basic mechanics, I'm sure you have another AIAS award winner on your hands.

It has been a while since I last felt this uplifting feeling of developer innovation ("while" being about a year or so ) after reading about a game, but I must say it's fully warranted for latest installment in the Banjo Kazooie series.

If the next two Rare titles that follow Viva Pinata: Trouble in Paradise and Banjo Kazooie: Nuts and Bolts are developed with even a fraction of the inventiveness that I've played with and seen in Viva Pinata and the Banjo videos respectively, Rare may nab a top seat as some of the industry's most talented developers -- again.

This is the correct reaction.

I'm looking forward to many games this year, but none have me excited like Banjo. Plz don't delay it. Thank you.

 

[Spectral]

All jokes aside it's like Twisted Metal with furries. At least it takes open ended gameplay to another level. Gettin tired of all the GTA.

 

[Sharp]

I watched all the videos. It looks pretty fun, but it really isn't a traditional platformer, which was kind of what I'd been hoping for. I wouldn't mind it being a collectathon--I actually had fun with DK64. Oh well.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

You will like what they tell you. What right do YOU have to expect a sequel!?

What right do YOU have to dictate the direction of a developer's creative development?

Seriously, the level of entitlement is just absolutely outrageous. It IS a sequel. It could work, it could fail, but unless you can pony up the scratch to form a dev house and buy the IP off Rare, you might not LIKE what THEY tell you, but you are going to get it.

 

[FightyF]

Yes you're much too good to play 'nintendo fanboy' card.

But hey I hope we can get back on track now.

How does calling other people "fucks" for their opinion, getting back on track?

Why don't you challenge my points instead? You want to talk about the game, don't you? You want to get back on track here, right?

So, why is it a bad thing if a vehicle is used to effectively run and jump around a level? Anyone? I mean, you guys obviously want to talk about the game here...let's discuss this.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

the ability to customize your vehicle/weapon/thingamajig? I hope you aren't being serious

My point was that you aren't seeing the forest for the trees. In a macro sense, the game doesn't exactly seem that far removed from the first games. In the old games, you collect currency that allows you to move to new areas by unlocking the barriers or by allowing you new/improved abilities to reach those new areas. With the new game, you seem to have the same structure in place except that the somewhat narrow freedom of the original games has been expanded to the creation and customization of those abilities. As one of the previews says, the powerups aren't necessarily to do with Banjo and Kazooie themselves, but rather the vehicles and abilities that they have based on your collection and implementation of the various component parts. And the 'thingamajig' genre doesn't exist.

 

[TheDarkKnight774]

I'm not sure where i stand with this game

I never played the first 2 BK games but i'll admit i was hoping to see a more traditional HD platformer. Platformers are just rare these days

I like legos, but the focus on this creativity didn't get me as jazzed as say..LBP. Maybe its the interface? Also the focus on the vehicles is interesting but i need to see it more before i can tell if its for me.

 

[bigmakstudios]

Have you ever seen Gahiggidy's game room?

Seriously, this is getting ridiculous. I have no loyalty to Nintendo. In fact, I fucking hate Wii Sports. But I'm also extremely disappointed with how Rare has changed the game play from BK1 and 2 to Nuts and Bolts. How is it unfair to be skeptical of the heavy emphasis on vehicles, when in the original games, Banjo and Kazooie were controlled directly? Have those of you who have attempted to shut out any negativity ever considered that some of us liked to control Banjo and Kazooie on foot, and that needing to use vehicles eliminates that draw to the game?

 

[bigmakstudios]

nm

 

[legend166]

What right do YOU have to dictate the direction of a developer's creative development?

This is such garbage. Of course we can't dictate the direction of a game. What we can do, however, is be dissapointed in said direction.

Why is it such a bloody outrage if someone is dissapointed with a game?

 

[Sharp]

How does calling other people "fucks" for their opinion, getting back on track?

Why don't you challenge my points instead? You want to talk about the game, don't you? You want to get back on track here, right?

So, why is it a bad thing if a vehicle is used to effectively run and jump around a level? Anyone? I mean, you guys obviously want to talk about the game here...let's discuss this.

It's not a bad thing... but that doesn't mean it was what we were all hoping for, either. I am definitely a huge fan of customization, that's why I'm so hyped for Spore, but that's not necessarily what I look for in a platformer. Oh well, I'm sure it will be a great game regardless.

 

[mm04]

Wow this thread really turned into something crazy. I tell you what, I had really no interest in Banjo before today's videos and now I really want to play it. I'm not a huge fan of pure platformers. The creative aspect of this game has really caught my attention, though. I think it looks brilliant and I can't wait to fuck some people up in MP when I attach those giant springs to the side of my vehicle! Good job, Rare. Now knock my socks off with a new Perfect Dark.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

It's not a bad thing... but that doesn't mean it was what we were all hoping for, either.

What were you hoping for?

 

[markom58]

Just got home from work. Saw Banjo. Saw 30 pages. Tired. Recap pls? :lol

 

[icecream]

Because you are being disappointed for the wrong reasons.

How is it unfair to be skeptical of the heavy emphasis on vehicles, when in the original games, Banjo and Kazooie were controlled directly?

Good thing you can still control the actual characters and have a set of abilities then, huh?

 

[jordan0386]

I dunno, proven developer, track record, good games currently on Xbox platforms.

Shit like that.

 

[Kujo]

My anticipation for any game has never dropped as far or fast as it has right now. Not to say it still can't be a good game, but this just isn't for me I guess.

I loved Kameo though, I hope there will be a sequel to that eventually.

 

[Rlan]

Finally saw the "rare_ep1cut2.wmv" movie.

So they've REMOVED ALL OF KAZOOIE'S MOVES?!? WHAT'S THE FUCKING POINT THEN?

Banjo's entire moveset was "Punch" and "Roll". Kazooie was everything else. So now Kazooie's whole thing is holding the staff?

Wtf.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

This is such garbage. Of course we can't dictate the direction of a game. What we can do, however, is be dissapointed in said direction.

Why is it such a bloody outrage if someone is dissapointed with a game?

You can be disappointed all you want. But he said "What right do YOU have to expect a sequel?"

The answer is none. Not unless you make it yourself.

 

[MisterHero]

How does calling other people "fucks" for their opinion, getting back on track?

Why don't you challenge my points instead? You want to talk about the game, don't you? You want to get back on track here, right?

So, why is it a bad thing if a vehicle is used to effectively run and jump around a level? Anyone? I mean, you guys obviously want to talk about the game here...let's discuss this.

The "fucks" comment was a last resort to get people including yourself to stop generalizing the opinions in this thread. For the most part, I don't feel people are expressing disappointment because they want to. I'll try not to do it again but you have to try dealing with the problem rather than play the blame game.

.......

It's not a bad change to the series, but I'm afraid that it's going to take some explanation for some to get used to. This is a major addition/change to the gameplay, and some things like the complexity build-a-vehicle HUD could hinder it.

Because someone's going to explain/demonstrate this process of manipulating the vehicles to interact with the environment, t's not one of those apparent changes that will get fans onboard right away.

The fact that the trailers showed like 5 seconds of on-foot play does not reassure the existing fans. That should be understood. I don't think people want to hate the game.

I myself am looking forward very much to seeing more of it.

 

[BobFromPikeCreek]

Just got home from work. Saw Banjo. Saw 30 pages. Tired. Recap pls? :lol

People whining cause they wanted a pure platformer, people whining because people whining that they wanted a pure platformer.

 

[Flakster99]

Big difference in opinion and agenda. Thats all im sayin

I know from time to time my cranky, elitist, jaded self is unleashed, the monster needs to be fed sometimes.

It's a merrygoround man. Nobody wants to make a stinker, or us as gamers wanting to play a stinker, it's about preference and getting it across in a non tom foolery manner, to which many seem to purposely fail for whatever reason. /shrug

 

[witness]

*image removed*

 

[flintstryker]

It hurts because it's true? Is that why you had to resort to insults here?

Come up with a valid point and then come back and talk.

well playing the nintendo loyalist bullshit isn't exactly valid either.

 

[abacab driver]

Just got home from work. Saw Banjo. Saw 30 pages. Tired. Recap pls? :lol

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11155238&postcount=252

 

[Blader]

Finally saw the "rare_ep1cut2.wmv" movie.

So they've REMOVED ALL OF KAZOOIE'S MOVES?!? WHAT'S THE FUCKING POINT THEN?

Banjo's entire moveset was "Punch" and "Roll". Kazooie was everything else. So now Kazooie's whole thing is holding the staff?

Wtf.

The vehicles are meant to act as a substitute for Kazooie's movies, I believe.

 

[Quazar]

This thread fucking rocks. I have no clue what to expect to read anymore. Rare has delivered.

 

[bigmakstudios]

Because you are being disappointed for the wrong reasons.


Good thing you can still control the actual characters and have a set of abilities then, huh?

What
An employee from Rare has said that Kazooie has no abilities in Nuts and Bolts. Why should we believe otherwise, especially when considering that, in total, the game play videos have only included a few seconds of ground controls, and no Kazooie abilities?

 

[Kafel]

dp

 

[Kafel]

George, do you know if we'll have the chance to play a demo ?

 

[Sydle]

Just got home from work. Saw Banjo. Saw 30 pages. Tired. Recap pls? :lol

Haters hate because it's something different than what they were expecting. They want an HD makeover of antiquated gameplay.

Others are gushing over the innovativations.

Some are sitting on the fence.

There's been one ban so far.

 

[Linkhero1]

[MG]http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/4253/1210718314743oh6.jpg[/IMG]

:lol :lol :lol Oh God you ruined Banjo for me forever.

 

[bigmakstudios]

You can be disappointed all you want. But he said "What right do YOU have to expect a sequel?"

The answer is none. Not unless you make it yourself.

wtf
How did I NOT have the right to expect a sequel, erroneously or not?

 

[tak]

There's been two bans so far.

fixed

 

[Sharp]

What were you hoping for?

More of the same, really. I've always been a fan of more of the same, as long as there were no glaring problems with the original, and since I don't mind collectathons BK was that way for me. Again, I wish Rare the best of luck and I'm sure it'll be a fantastic game, but... eh. I think it's also the fact that mixing vehicles with platforming hasn't worked that well in the past a lot of the time (Shadow, Jak II...) Yes, I know everyone says it works well.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=188867

So Banjo's back and what we saw looked great, even if it was only a tiny portion of what's in store. There are still a lot of questions we'd like answering and we would have liked to see how intuitive the whole user-generated content element of the single-player game really is. But it looks like we'll have to wait until MS and Rare gives us some quality time with the quest to find that out for ourselves.

Rare hasn't simply chosen to remake the original collect-'em-up in glorious HD and for that we applaud it. It takes nuts (and bolts) to try something new these days and if Nuts & Bolts was nothing but a remake of the first game, there would have been many critics come review time ("but it's just Banjo again").

We've seen and played new Banjo and haven't lost a single night's sleep worrying about the direction the bear and bird are going in. You shouldn't either.

 

[legend166]

Haters hate because it's something different than what they were expecting. They want an HD makeover of antiquated gameplay.

Others are gushing over the innovativations.

Some are sitting on the fence.

There's been one ban so far.

Don't forget completely retarded generalisations!

 

[a Master Ninja]

new video! show game in action a little more

STOP 'N' SWOP ALL OVER MY TITS!

But seriously, I don't get the hate. This looks like a game that gives the player a lot of freedom to be creative. It looks fun.

 

[icecream]

What
An employee from Rare has said that Kazooie has no abilities in Nuts and Bolts. Why should we believe otherwise, especially when considering that, in total, the game play videos have only included a few seconds of ground controls, and no Kazooie abilities?

Didn't you make the same point earlier?

Up to you. You can use 'traditional methods' or use vehicles. 'Traditional' methods may work in some cases but not all. If you treat the vehicle pieces as abilities, then you get the idea. Combine the vehicle pieces to create the abilities you think you will need.

You can use them a lot, but in most cases you won't get very far. Think about it, the actual travelling around the levels in the old games wasn't the best bits. Trying to figure out what to do, discovering new worlds, interacting with daft characters, the humour and so on were Banjo's strengths. All we have done is make the travelling fun! I'm certain that there will be some players that have so much fun just messing around with the vehicles that they won't play the game 'properly' for long periods of time. In the same way that I thought that some players in Viva Pinata could get entertainment by simply watching their garden exist without actually doing anything to it.

Not to mention the extent of what we'll actually be able to do sans vehicles hasn't even been fully elaborated yet.

 

[Nicktals]

How does calling other people "fucks" for their opinion, getting back on track?

Why don't you challenge my points instead? You want to talk about the game, don't you? You want to get back on track here, right?

So, why is it a bad thing if a vehicle is used to effectively run and jump around a level? Anyone? I mean, you guys obviously want to talk about the game here...let's discuss this.

Because Banjo Kazooie, as a franchise, was defined by the first two games. Those games consisted of learning moves for Banjo and Kazooie, and then using bird and bear to solve puzzles, platform, and fight. Vehicles weren't involved, and certainly weren't a focus, and there was absolutely no reason to think they were needed.

The formula worked fantastically. I don't get why Banjo and Kazooie need vehicles. And this has been said many times before, but this would have worked better as a new IP. There is absolutely no reason this style of gameplay had to feature Banjo and Kazooie. I can see how some people find the vehicle building/customization thing cool, but it's not for me. I just don't get what the downside of creating a new IP for this gameplay mechanic, and then doing a more tradtional BK would be.


EDIT:

Didn't you make the same point earlier?


Not to mention the extent of what we'll actually be able to do sans vehicles hasn't even been fully elaborated yet.

That doesn't change the fact that the levels have been designed for vehicles/vehicle manipulation. So even if it's technically possible to play through the game without them, that's really beside the point.

 

[stewacide]

If anyone from Rare is reading: please simply the constructor UI as much as possible. Looks terribly complicated in these videos.

 

[Illuminati]

Oh goddammit who the hell wanted vehicles in this game. It's like Gary's Mod: Banjo Kazooie edition.

 

[CowboyAstronaut]

What people?

Seriously, what percentage of the marketplace out there is clamoring for a carbon copy return to the BK universe? Wouldn't a new approach that could potentially appeal to a newer demographic be better?

Dictating development based on nostalgic ideals seems really backward to me.

Thats the trick

It's so the game, had it been Banjo HD, could be ridiculed as the same exact game with the same tired mechanics trying to live off the name and better graphics. Or so people can Rare pretty much lost all the talented members in their team so all they can do is grab onto and ride the jockstrap of the older games because they are too afraid to try something new.

If this were the Banjo Kazooie we all know just with better graphics we would be hearing an entirely different style of complaint. I would be pleased with a new Banjo Kazooie title even if it was just the older games with improved graphics, but I got something more and that's a good thing.

It's obvious people wont want to see this game succeed so they can continue saying what a bad business decision Rare has been for Microsoft, but if this game is handled right and I haven't yet seen signs that it hasn't been, it could end up being a pretty big deal.

I also haven't seen enough yet to be sure it will be the great game that I and some others hope it will end up being, but just as i can't say for sure if it's going to be great or not people can't, based on the simple fact that it's trying something new, say this game wont be every bit as fantastic as the older Banjo Kazooie titles.

I think taking something as popular as Banjo Kazooie and taking such a risk with the implementation of those vehicles is exactly what Rare should be doing. What's with all this "do it in a new IP" mess? If they aren't going to be doing newer more interesting things with the IP that they have then they are simply better off without them. It seems like people would've preferred for Rare to have kept Banjo smaller and not make the world as big as they have in this new version of the game.

 

[M3wThr33]

And just to point out, Jak & Daxter already had a level DEDICATED to a vehicle and liberal use in the game already.

 

[layzie1989]

I was :O at the end when they ejected from the plane and that pod sprung out wings. That looked really cool.

 

[icecream]

That doesn't change the fact that the levels have been designed for vehicles/vehicle manipulation. So even if it's technically possible to play through the game without them, that's really beside the point.

That's not besides the point at all. It's a new approach to the gameplay, in which the focus is greater freedom, and a new take on the 'abilities.' If you don't like the direction, that's perfectly fine. But there's no reason to dislike the game simply 'because it's not exactly like the other BK games' because it's more in line than it departs from it.

 

[Sydle]

Allow us to explain. The level we were shown required Banjo to collect a certain amount of coconuts from a garden within the time limit given. Pick up enough and Banjo gets a Jiggy for his trouble. Fileccia loaded up a game save with a "here's one we made earlier" vehicle, a four-wheeled truck. Banjo then drove over to the garden, grabbed a load of coconuts (a few stones too), before driving back (slowly, due to the extra weight) to the coconut counting contraption. He just about passed the challenge but the ranking (that will be tagged to Leaderboards) wasn't great.

Fileccia loaded up another save, which had a ready-made helicopter with a huge magnet ready for lift-off. After taking to the air, the magnet picked up the coconut counting contraption, took it over to the garden and swallowed up all its contents in minutes. So rather than the designers giving you a new ability, you're given a set of tools, in the form of a vehicle editor, and you have to use your head.

How can anyone hate on ths?! It's a platformer built on the idea of user-generated content. You could go through this game multiple times and probably solve every problem differently each time. That's fuck awesome.

 

[FightyF]

well playing the nintendo loyalist bullshit isn't exactly valid either.

It's completely valid because I can dig up posts that totally fit the bill. We've all seen them, so I see little reason to bring them up. Secondly, it would derail the thread into something they would want anyways.

Because Banjo Kazooie, as a franchise, was defined by the first two games. Those games consisted of learning moves for Banjo and Kazooie, and then using bird and bear to solve puzzles, platform, and fight. Vehicles weren't involved, and certainly weren't a focus, and there was absolutely no reason to think they were needed.

The formula worked fantastically. I don't get why Banjo and Kazooie need vehicles. And this has been said many times before, but this would have worked better as a new IP.

The same could be said about Mario games, yet they don't get the same amount of hate. Did Mario really need to start flying? Did we really need other characters besides Mario in Mario 2? Did Mario really need a waterpack? Why did Nintendo stray from the Mario 64 formula and decide to have Mario jump around small planets? Should Nintendo have went with a new IP for each title?

There is absolutely no reason this style of gameplay had to feature Banjo and Kazooie.

Again, same could be said for Mario.

I understand wanting more of the same. What I don't understand is how there is a double standard.

I think Rlan's comments have been the strongest point for those thinking they should have went with another IP. If they did take away Kazooie's abilities, then what's the point of having him there?