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[StormCell]

The game evolves and devolves naturally, just keep our hands off of it. Control the cheating and the game will work itself out. That USED to be the beauty of the sport. They haven't changed the distance to first but you STILL have close plays. Hitters will need to adapt to the switch and hit opposite field, learn to lay down a bunt. Nah, we have to meddle with it and make rule changes every year. For comparison, the stats below are from 1978. Let it play out and stop micromanaging the game. Also....playoff hockey is on!!!! Watch that.

Guidry: 25-3, 1.74 ERA, 273⅔ IP, 248 SO, 9.6 WAR

Rice: .315/.370/.600, 46 HR, 139 RBIs, 121 R, 7.6 WAR

This is simply not the case. Some things have happened to evolve the game in a very intentional manner while other things have been prohibited to stop the game from evolving in a chaotic way. Without a doubt, the league had been looking the other way on a wide variety of PEDs that every baseball player in the game was using because overall it was good for the game and put the best product on the field. This had been going on since at least the 1960s if not even longer.

What you have today is a version of baseball where hitters go to the IL with stubbed toes and banged up wrists, and pitchers sometimes go to the IL with arm soreness and miss the whole rest of the season due to teams being cautious.

Examples of a game evolving because we're unable to keep our hands off of it: the strike zone has gotten smaller over the past 15 years despite no formal rule changes. For decades, umps were comfortable with calls at the sides of the plate, but with more cameras and umpire reviews than ever before umps are much less likely to call a strike at the corners. Conversely, they're more likely to issue strikes at or just below the knees and as high as a hitter's chest. This has had all kinds of impacts to the game, and it's all because of technology making it clear as day when an umpire's strike zone doesn't perfectly align with the plate.

Then there's defensive shifts, which I think the league would have been perfectly within the right to have prohibited or at least added regulations around it to prevent it from getting to an extreme. Why these are bad is because it makes baseball boring. It looks unfair for certain types of hitters, and to say "just hit it the other way" does not resolve the fact that teams actually want you to do it because that would decrease your likelihood of going long.

 

[SlimySnake]

Which just goes to show that analytically driven baseball is far less interesting and entertaining to watch. Point in fact, fans hate how long the games have gotten. Games have gotten a lot longer because of two big reasons. The first is the way that pitchers operate nowadays. They often are limited to just under 100 pitches, and they make all 100 of them within about 6 innings. That means they are throwing a lot of pitches that aren't resulting in putouts. The second problem is that teams are burning through relief pitchers in a game of chess to retire the other team. It's tiresome. Half the guys who enter the game have to be lifted an out or two later. Even if you are one of those fans who can look past the evolution here and find joy in the individual match ups, you have to admit that it makes for a much longer affair and lost in the mix are the match-ups of old. The last baseball game I got to attend, I still remember who the starting pitchers were. I got to see Tom Glavine vs Kerry Wood and the Cubs. Nowadays, if you attend a game you're probably much less interested in who is starting because they'll be gone before the 6th anyway.

That's a good point. It explains why the walk rates are so high because pitchers now just nibble around the corners all game knowing they wont make it past the 6th anyway.

My biggest pet peeve when going to watch games is seeing the relief pitcher come in and then take another 5 minutes getting ready. Like why?!! You were throwing in the bullpen already. Why do you get to come in and take another five minutes getting ready? I think they get something like 10-15 throws and I remember just being bored to death waiting for like 10 relief pitchers to get ready in the last half of the game.

We baby pitchers way too much. Hitters dont get batting practice when pinch hitting. If they are lucky they might have some indoor batting cages in their home ballpark but visiting players dont even get that.

We need to limit pitchers to one inning minimum. If you cant get three outs in a league thats hitting .230 on average then you probably shouldnt be pitching in the major leagues.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Slimy,

Good video. I watched it.

One thing I find amazing. If this stuff is so sticky, the pitchers seem to have figured out how to throw with accuracy by putting on just enough so it doesnt lead to wild throws (even though the narrator says players are getting beaned).

 

[StreetsofBeige]

That's a good point. It explains why the walk rates are so high because pitchers now just nibble around the corners all game knowing they wont make it past the 6th anyway.

My biggest pet peeve when going to watch games is seeing the relief pitcher come in and then take another 5 minutes getting ready. Like why?!! You were throwing in the bullpen already. Why do you get to come in and take another five minutes getting ready? I think they get something like 10-15 throws and I remember just being bored to death waiting for like 10 relief pitchers to get ready in the last half of the game.

We baby pitchers way too much. Hitters dont get batting practice when pinch hitting. If they are lucky they might have some indoor batting cages in their home ballpark but visiting players dont even get that.

We need to limit pitchers to one inning minimum. If you cant get three outs in a league thats hitting .230 on average then you probably shouldnt be pitching in the major leagues.

I think they let pitchers warmup on the mound because I think bullpens are flat grounded.

 

[SlimySnake]

Slimy,

Good video. I watched it.

One thing I find amazing. If this stuff is so sticky, the pitchers seem to have figured out how to throw with accuracy by putting on just enough so it doesnt lead to wild throws (even though the narrator says players are getting beaned).

Actually, the sticky stuff increases the spinrate which adds movement to the ball. So something like a 2 seam fastball that cuts in to right handed hitters or a cutter to left handed hitters would move more with a higher spin rate. It's actually whats made breaking balls so much more harder to hit because they now break more than ever.

But it looks like this stuff is now going to be a thing of the past because MLB is finally cracking down on it the last week or so. It will be interesting to see the numbers going forward. I think the deadened ball might still keep the overall average from climbing too much.

I think they let pitchers warmup on the mound because I think bullpens are flat grounded.

I have a very simple solution for that. ;p

 

[StormCell]

That's a good point. It explains why the walk rates are so high because pitchers now just nibble around the corners all game knowing they wont make it past the 6th anyway.

My biggest pet peeve when going to watch games is seeing the relief pitcher come in and then take another 5 minutes getting ready. Like why?!! You were throwing in the bullpen already. Why do you get to come in and take another five minutes getting ready? I think they get something like 10-15 throws and I remember just being bored to death waiting for like 10 relief pitchers to get ready in the last half of the game.

We baby pitchers way too much. Hitters dont get batting practice when pinch hitting. If they are lucky they might have some indoor batting cages in their home ballpark but visiting players dont even get that.

We need to limit pitchers to one inning minimum. If you cant get three outs in a league thats hitting .230 on average then you probably shouldnt be pitching in the major leagues.

For f'ing real. To the guy sitting at home watching TV, it feels like a continuous onslaught of commercials that are definitely generating someone some revenue.

And another point of interest in this new age game: Shane Greene is a relief pitcher who remained a free agent after the season started. The Braves finally signed him like 4 weeks ago. He has had to go through what seems like an entire simulated spring training to finally join the damn team. What the f gives??? This guy is a reliever. Since when does it take anyone a month to get ready for baseball when spring training used to just be a time to work on new stuff and generally get loosened up. I remember when it took, at most, 2 weeks for a guy to be game ready assuming he wasn't totally out of shape.

I feel like this is just more evidence of the gaping hole that performance enhancers have left in the game. Players are taking absurdly long to get ready, and teams walk on egg shells with any sort of soreness or tightness the player feels. It used to be that they would just take uppers or greenies and go play.

 

[SlimySnake]

Very interesting inside info from Buster Olney. He got some details on a meeting between the owners, MLB, Players Association and the Umpires that took place last week.

Some details:
- Starting this week, Umpires will receive Scouting info that lists all the suspected pitchers and their tells. MLB has been collecting this info over the course of this season.
- Umps will be allowed to search players and eject them
- 10 Game Bans WITHOUT pay.
- Position Players were turning in their own pitchers by submitting to MLB video evidence of their teammates applying illegal substances. Crazy stuff.
- Position players/Hitters are the ones who forced MLB's hands.



This is unrelated, but when it comes to improving the game of baseball, robo umpires need to come in sooner than later. Umps are having an awful year (could be due to the ball moving around due to spinrate) but stuff like this is way too common. Look at how far outside that pitch is, and it is not even that uncommon. Has happened 3 times in the last 10 Yankees games.

 

[Neil Young]

This is simply not the case. Some things have happened to evolve the game in a very intentional manner while other things have been prohibited to stop the game from evolving in a chaotic way. Without a doubt, the league had been looking the other way on a wide variety of PEDs that every baseball player in the game was using because overall it was good for the game and put the best product on the field. This had been going on since at least the 1960s if not even longer.

What you have today is a version of baseball where hitters go to the IL with stubbed toes and banged up wrists, and pitchers sometimes go to the IL with arm soreness and miss the whole rest of the season due to teams being cautious.

Examples of a game evolving because we're unable to keep our hands off of it: the strike zone has gotten smaller over the past 15 years despite no formal rule changes. For decades, umps were comfortable with calls at the sides of the plate, but with more cameras and umpire reviews than ever before umps are much less likely to call a strike at the corners. Conversely, they're more likely to issue strikes at or just below the knees and as high as a hitter's chest. This has had all kinds of impacts to the game, and it's all because of technology making it clear as day when an umpire's strike zone doesn't perfectly align with the plate.

Then there's defensive shifts, which I think the league would have been perfectly within the right to have prohibited or at least added regulations around it to prevent it from getting to an extreme. Why these are bad is because it makes baseball boring. It looks unfair for certain types of hitters, and to say "just hit it the other way" does not resolve the fact that teams actually want you to do it because that would decrease your likelihood of going long.

I think we're saying the same thing here...maybe, I don't know, because I agree with what you said....except the shift.

Baseball is not a game made for the modern ADD, Tik Tok, attention span of a squirrel on meth culture. Shit, it was barely made for the pre internet crowd. My whole life, people have complained that the game is boring, too slow, season is too long. To the longtime fans....we know that's the game...it's ALWAYS been like that (even with the roid era). The problem is, the suits WANT to appease the new fan and I guess you can't blame them since it's all about the money. So they keep fiddling with the game and it loses a bit of what made it great year after year. But, I have hope as some things are just a constant.... hitting a round ball with a round bat is STILL hard as fuck to do and you need more than 3 leagues from AAA on down to find the best of the best.

 

[0neAnd0nly]

Y’all missing out on the real action now, and I am being serious.

Similar neutering has taken place in college with BBcore, but it’s still more action than the MLB. Still usually scoring more, sometimes a LOT more. The real fun however lately is college softball. You’re missing out if not watching. The college champ game begins tonight (best 2 of 3) with FSU and Oklahoma. It’s a 1 seed vs. a 10 seed that battled its way out of the losers bracket, and both teams are hot as fire and scoring a ton. Heck, FSU played a game at 1 AM 3 nights ago thanks to weather delays, and it was HYPE.

Check it out tonight if bored. It’s fun, much faster today than the MLB for sure.

I do miss MLB of old. My memories in Turner Field will never fade. People who have never physically sat in a hyped MLB stadium back in the 90s-00s don’t understand. It’s a blast.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I can understand players, coaches and owners all doing it silently not wanting to rock the boat, but I am disappointed umps never called them out. It's obvious they know the balls are be gummed up, but aside from a handful of clips showing umps checking hats and gloves, they all basically let it fly.

I guess they didn't want to rock the boat either. Or MLB told them to shut up about it and only check stuff when asked too. So even though umps are part of the league and want to save their jobs, I wished they would act more independent and call out garbage on the field.

 

[SlimySnake]

For f'ing real. To the guy sitting at home watching TV, it feels like a continuous onslaught of commercials that are definitely generating someone some revenue.

And another point of interest in this new age game: Shane Greene is a relief pitcher who remained a free agent after the season started. The Braves finally signed him like 4 weeks ago. He has had to go through what seems like an entire simulated spring training to finally join the damn team. What the f gives??? This guy is a reliever. Since when does it take anyone a month to get ready for baseball when spring training used to just be a time to work on new stuff and generally get loosened up. I remember when it took, at most, 2 weeks for a guy to be game ready assuming he wasn't totally out of shape.

I feel like this is just more evidence of the gaping hole that performance enhancers have left in the game. Players are taking absurdly long to get ready, and teams walk on egg shells with any sort of soreness or tightness the player feels. It used to be that they would just take uppers or greenies and go play.

I think thats just the analytics guys. I see that all the time. Players get rested even though the DH everyday. Like wtf. Why does he need rest, he doesnt even field? I was watching jomboy and he pointed out how there are other teams that play their guys everyday. There is no scheduled rest day other than the off days the entire team gets. I was like wtf because the yankees do not play their best guys if they have played 5 days in a row. Their relief pitchers dont pitch more than two days in a row. I am like wtf these guys are athletes. They have trained for this their entire lives. Let them play everday. That's literally what baseball is all about.

The funny thing is that they still get injured all the time so clearly the rest isnt working. If anything, I think not playing everyday actually keeps the body from adapting. We know its true for hitting. The more at bats you get the better you feel at the plate. But the analytics driven teams like the Yankees dont believe in common sense anymore. Other teams dont care and they dont have nearly as many injuries as yankees do.

But yeah, lets bring back PEDs. Keep steroids out for now, but amphetamines' arent that bad imo. They dont give you extra strength, shrink your balls or make you beat up your wife so lets just try it out for a year or two and as long as its an even playing field I dont think the players will care. Hell, even with steroids, who cares if they go bald or get a smaller dick, it's their body. I am Pro choice for men.

 

[StormCell]

I think we're saying the same thing here...maybe, I don't know, because I agree with what you said....except the shift.

Baseball is not a game made for the modern ADD, Tik Tok, attention span of a squirrel on meth culture. Shit, it was barely made for the pre internet crowd. My whole life, people have complained that the game is boring, too slow, season is too long. To the longtime fans....we know that's the game...it's ALWAYS been like that (even with the roid era). The problem is, the suits WANT to appease the new fan and I guess you can't blame them since it's all about the money. So they keep fiddling with the game and it loses a bit of what made it great year after year. But, I have hope as some things are just a constant.... hitting a round ball with a round bat is STILL hard as fuck to do and you need more than 3 leagues from AAA on down to find the best of the best.

This is true. Baseball has always been a sport that was ahead of its time, even ahead of itself (somehow). People who are mostly okay with today's game have pointed out to me that change has been a constant. In its earliest form, the pitcher was only there to put the ball over the plate so the other team could hit it. It was of big controversy when pitchers began to rely on trickery to prevent the other team from hitting. What a beautiful thing was born of that change. From there, it was a strange sight for a starter to not finish a game he started, and from that came relievers and eventually closers.

It's a sad thing when the sport (as you knew it) fades and a new thing replaces it, because in a way baseball symbolizes your aging and your eventual fade away from life. I hardly recognize baseball as it is now partly because I grew up in age full of larger than the game heroes and mythological legends, and so now it seems strange to me when elite ace pitchers become human in their early 30s and hitters we had pined for to add to our lineups are washed up by age 33. To think of what Bonds was doing at ages 36-39, you realize just how unrealistic the game had become.

Still, it was a much better game to watch.

 

[SlimySnake]

Y’all missing out on the real action now, and I am being serious.

Similar neutering has taken place in college with BBcore, but it’s still more action than the MLB. Still usually scoring more, sometimes a LOT more. The real fun however lately is college softball. You’re missing out if not watching. The college champ game begins tonight (best 2 of 3) with FSU and Oklahoma. It’s a 1 seed vs. a 10 seed that battled its way out of the losers bracket, and both teams are hot as fire and scoring a ton. Heck, FSU played a game at 1 AM 3 nights ago thanks to weather delays, and it was HYPE.

Check it out tonight if bored. It’s fun, much faster today than the MLB for sure.

I do miss MLB of old. My memories in Turner Field will never fade. People who have never physically sat in a hyped MLB stadium back in the 90s-00s don’t understand. It’s a blast.

lol i might give it a shot.

And yes, I think baseball stadiums have been domesticated since the 90s. It feels like everyone is there with their kids and girlfriends. People walk around near bars and chill out with their friends as if they arent even there to watch the game. I love the almost religious intensity of idiot fanboys going nuts instead of making sure their gf is having a good time.

Compare the atmosphere in the post 9/11 world series and the Cubs 2003 Steve Bartman NLCS series to now and its not even close.

 

[StormCell]

I think thats just the analytics guys. I see that all the time. Players get rested even though the DH everyday. Like wtf. Why does he need rest, he doesnt even field? I was watching jomboy and he pointed out how there are other teams that play their guys everyday. There is no scheduled rest day other than the off days the entire team gets. I was like wtf because the yankees do not play their best guys if they have played 5 days in a row. Their relief pitchers dont pitch more than two days in a row. I am like wtf these guys are athletes. They have trained for this their entire lives. Let them play everday. That's literally what baseball is all about.

The funny thing is that they still get injured all the time so clearly the rest isnt working. If anything, I think not playing everyday actually keeps the body from adapting. We know its true for hitting. The more at bats you get the better you feel at the plate. But the analytics driven teams like the Yankees dont believe in common sense anymore. Other teams dont care and they dont have nearly as many injuries as yankees do.

But yeah, lets bring back PEDs. Keep steroids out for now, but amphetamines' arent that bad imo. They dont give you extra strength, shrink your balls or make you beat up your wife so lets just try it out for a year or two and as long as its an even playing field I dont think the players will care. Hell, even with steroids, who cares if they go bald or get a smaller dick, it's their body. I am Pro choice for men.

I was actually wondering what had happened to the Yankees! Braves have got themselves an analytics GM as well, and we've all been convinced that Brian Snitker is the worst at bullpen management, but I've always thought that had to be a crock because surely they would defer to the analytics on these decisons! Surely!!

I've never seen teams abuse the minor leagues the way I have seen this man, the GM, abuse it. Gwinnett may as well be an expanded roster for the team, because we keep a taxi running 24/7 to endlessly swap out minor leaguers with a few of our roster spots. I feel like this has destroyed some of our top pitching prospects, but the analytics must be loving the results. This team probably won't make the playoffs, but if it saved a bunch of dollars on 3 roster spots then I guess that's a win.

 

[SlimySnake]

This is true. Baseball has always been a sport that was ahead of its time, even ahead of itself (somehow). People who are mostly okay with today's game have pointed out to me that change has been a constant. In its earliest form, the pitcher was only there to put the ball over the plate so the other team could hit it. It was of big controversy when pitchers began to rely on trickery to prevent the other team from hitting. What a beautiful thing was born of that change. From there, it was a strange sight for a starter to not finish a game he started, and from that came relievers and eventually closers.

It's a sad thing when the sport (as you knew it) fades and a new thing replaces it, because in a way baseball symbolizes your aging and your eventual fade away from life. I hardly recognize baseball as it is now partly because I grew up in age full of larger than the game heroes and mythological legends, and so now it seems strange to me when elite ace pitchers become human in their early 30s and hitters we had pined for to add to our lineups are washed up by age 33. To think of what Bonds was doing at ages 36-39, you realize just how unrealistic the game had become.

Still, it was a much better game to watch.

It's terrible what they did to Bonds. He was like Trevor Bauer. He wasnt the first one to do it and he was given no choice but to take steroids because MLB turned a blind eye to all the cheaters like McGuire and Sosa. Bonds had already won 3 MVPs before he started taking steroids. he needs to be in the hall of fame.

I was just reminiscing about how ESPN would switch to his at bats every time he came up. Even after his record 2001 year. They would just switch to his every at bat and every at bat he would get either a hit or a homerun or walk. I have never seen anything like it since. MLB has a video on youtube of Bonds hitting a massive homerun in the 9th inning of a world series game against Troy Perceival. 20 years later, thanks to a recent lawsuit by an Angels clubhouse employee, we find out that the first guy to experiment with illegal substances was Troy Percival. So Bonds was beating cheaters who were using steroids and using sticky substances.

Just send him to the hall of fame and put an asterisk on his Homerun record. Simple.

 

[SlimySnake]

I was actually wondering what had happened to the Yankees! Braves have got themselves an analytics GM as well, and we've all been convinced that Brian Snitker is the worst at bullpen management, but I've always thought that had to be a crock because surely they would defer to the analytics on these decisons! Surely!!

I've never seen teams abuse the minor leagues the way I have seen this man, the GM, abuse it. Gwinnett may as well be an expanded roster for the team, because we keep a taxi running 24/7 to endlessly swap out minor leaguers with a few of our roster spots. I feel like this has destroyed some of our top pitching prospects, but the analytics must be loving the results. This team probably won't make the playoffs, but if it saved a bunch of dollars on 3 roster spots then I guess that's a win.

Yeah, the yankees do that too. Must be an analytics thing. It makes no sense but they recently brought up three pitchers to start a game and then sent them back literally the same day. I dont get it. The NY press doesnt get it. The announcers dont get it. And thats whats so frustrating because it doesnt make sense. Just imagine what it does to the psyche of a developing player. No matter how well he pitches, he is getting sent back down. Analytics cant capture that.

 

[StormCell]

It's terrible what they did to Bonds. He was like Trevor Bauer. He wasnt the first one to do it and he was given no choice but to take steroids because MLB turned a blind eye to all the cheaters like McGuire and Sosa. Bonds had already won 3 MVPs before he started taking steroids. he needs to be in the hall of fame.

I was just reminiscing about how ESPN would switch to his at bats every time he came up. Even after his record 2001 year. They would just switch to his every at bat and every at bat he would get either a hit or a homerun or walk. I have never seen anything like it since. MLB has a video on youtube of Bonds hitting a massive homerun in the 9th inning of a world series game against Troy Perceival. 20 years later, thanks to a recent lawsuit by an Angels clubhouse employee, we find out that the first guy to experiment with illegal substances was Troy Percival. So Bonds was beating cheaters who were using steroids and using sticky substances.

Just send him to the hall of fame and put an asterisk on his Homerun record. Simple.

I admit that I was initially one of those guys who was really angry at MLB, Barry Bonds, and Roger Clemens for the PEDs. I was wrong back then, of course, and I had no idea how the game would change. The thing about those guys (Bonds, Clemens) is that I feel like they're the ones who upset the basket, and they're the ones who ultimately have ruined the game, IMO. I've felt like Barry Bonds had already had one of the all-time best careers when he suddenly took it to a whole other level. He basically went Tom Brady on the league. It wasn't sufficient for him to have one of the greatest careers ever. He had to have the best career ever. The same goes for Roger Clemens who had already won 3 Cy Young awards before revitalizing his career and going on to win 4 more, iirc.

So, I was wrong to hate PEDs, but don't you think that Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens basically blew the top off of the league's dirty little secret? I feel like these guys are the reason why the game cleaned up the way that it did.

 

[SlimySnake]

I admit that I was initially one of those guys who was really angry at MLB, Barry Bonds, and Roger Clemens for the PEDs. I was wrong back then, of course, and I had no idea how the game would change. The thing about those guys (Bonds, Clemens) is that I feel like they're the ones who upset the basket, and they're the ones who ultimately have ruined the game, IMO. I've felt like Barry Bonds had already had one of the all-time best careers when he suddenly took it to a whole other level. He basically went Tom Brady on the league. It wasn't sufficient for him to have one of the greatest careers ever. He had to have the best career ever. The same goes for Roger Clemens who had already won 3 Cy Young awards before revitalizing his career and going on to win 4 more, iirc.

So, I was wrong to hate PEDs, but don't you think that Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens basically blew the top off of the league's dirty little secret? I feel like these guys are the reason why the game cleaned up the way that it did.

Yeah, it makes sense. It exposed MLB's indifference. IIRC, an internal MLB investigation showed that somewhere around 115 players were taking steroids in the early 2000s. That amounted to something like 15%. To me, MLB legalized it by not punishing players right away and profiting off of the sosa and McGuire battles.

I was more pissed at A-Rod. He got caught multiple times and still kept trying to find ways to take PEDs. Bonds and Clemens deserve the hall of fame because of their pre steroid output. ARod was roiding before he even got the minor leagues.

 

[MastaKiiLA]

I admit that I was initially one of those guys who was really angry at MLB, Barry Bonds, and Roger Clemens for the PEDs. I was wrong back then, of course, and I had no idea how the game would change. The thing about those guys (Bonds, Clemens) is that I feel like they're the ones who upset the basket, and they're the ones who ultimately have ruined the game, IMO. I've felt like Barry Bonds had already had one of the all-time best careers when he suddenly took it to a whole other level. He basically went Tom Brady on the league. It wasn't sufficient for him to have one of the greatest careers ever. He had to have the best career ever. The same goes for Roger Clemens who had already won 3 Cy Young awards before revitalizing his career and going on to win 4 more, iirc.

So, I was wrong to hate PEDs, but don't you think that Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens basically blew the top off of the league's dirty little secret? I feel like these guys are the reason why the game cleaned up the way that it did.

The thing is that no one knows how long the sport's been dirty. They were using amphetamines in the early days. We know steroids have been in sports for a very long time. No reason to think they weren't used long before the time of Canseco. I always like to point to Nolan Ryan. While he's never been accused of juicing, he's also a strange outlier as a tall guy who threw heat into his 40s, and had the 5th most innings pitched, with over a quarter of his starts being complete games.

The idea that steroids lead to big, burly muscles has been proven false many times. Hedo Tukoglu got busted for PEDs in basketball, and he's not exactly jacked. PEDs helped to extend many careers in the MLB. The league office wants fans to believe that they busted the culprits, so that no further questions are raised. However, there are reasons to question how deep the rabbit hole goes, and why the names who helped revive the sport are the ones who have to take the blame. They're just fall guys IMO. They're victims of the MLB's ineffective stewardship of the game. Simple pawns to distract from bigger issues.

 

[MastaKiiLA]

Yeah, it makes sense. It exposed MLB's indifference. IIRC, an internal MLB investigation showed that somewhere around 115 players were taking steroids in the early 2000s. That amounted to something like 15%. To me, MLB legalized it by not punishing players right away and profiting off of the sosa and McGuire battles.

I was more pissed at A-Rod. He got caught multiple times and still kept trying to find ways to take PEDs. Bonds and Clemens deserve the hall of fame because of their pre steroid output. ARod was roiding before he even got the minor leagues.

ARod was juicing in high school. He bulked up either in his junior or senior year. The guys on my team talked about it a lot. It was first noticed when we played them in football, as he got noticeably bigger over one year. He was quarterback for Westminster Christian. I only ever saw him his senior year, the first time we played them in baseball. I have to admit, he was an absolute stud. Dude could play. He toyed with our best pitcher. Watching him take infield practice was one of the highlights of my baseball career.

 

[SlimySnake]

ARod was juicing in high school. He bulked up either in his junior or senior year. The guys on my team talked about it a lot. It was first noticed when we played them in football, as he got noticeably bigger over one year. He was quarterback for Westminster Christian. I only ever saw him his senior year, the first time we played them in baseball. I have to admit, he was an absolute stud. Dude could play. He toyed with our best pitcher. Watching him take infield practice was one of the highlights of my baseball career.

Yeah, the youtube channel Baseball Doesn't Exist did a great video on how he gained like 20 pounds in high school all of a sudden. A-Rod is one guy I dont want in the hall of fame. He couldnt stop cheating. Not even on J Lo.

 

[GreatnessRD]

The Astros fucking cheated and won a World Series, and that pussy Manfred wouldn't touch the players responsible out of fear of the player's union.

Because Manfraud is a bitch ass whore. After he completely devalued the World Series Championship, I never looked at baseball the same again.

 

[Sacred]

The Astros fucking cheated and won a World Series, and that pussy Manfred wouldn't touch the players responsible out of fear of the player's union.

Half the league was using different sign stealing techniques and the Astros scapegoated for the league. Manfred refuses to punish the other teams that were finger pointed by other organizations, including the Yankees that still have a sealed letter that he won't release.

 

[Tschumi]

Baseball is just fucked every which way, and I'm really starting to hate it. And it's not just pitchers cheating. I'll list things I hate about modern baseball...

1. The strike zone has been squeezed with the advent of more cameras and actual strike zone/call tracking. Pitchers no longer live on the corners and north/south pitchers have excelled.
2. Defensive shifts have only contributed to pitching becoming dominant and have also destroyed some hitters careers. Advanced metrics and data analysis for teams has only contributed to making this worse with defensive placements and such. Hitters with certain tendencies to put the ball in certain places are fucked.
3. Baseball organizations figured out it's easier to find and draft pitchers who throw 95+ mph than it is to find pitchers with lots of smarts, hence the heavy reliance on bullpen arms who can throw 95+ mph and the normalizing of 4 to 5 pitchers pitching each game.
4. Hitters have more technology to help them hit the ball than ever before. Struggling with the slider? The pitching machine will give you countless excellent sliders to work against. While you're at it, watch hours of tape on tomorrow's starter so you can be sure to get a good launch angle on his slider.
5. K/9, K/bb, FIP, xFIP, blah blah blah. We get it, some pitchers can get most of the outs all by themselves, and pitchers who would let hitters get themselves out fucking suck. Whatever.
6. Fucking with the fucking baseball. It has actually hurt some pitchers who were still working on their stuff. Leave the baseball alone and focus on fixing the above issues.
7. Holy shit do great players go down for the most mundane reasons. Stubbed toe? miss a day or two. muscle tightness/back tightness? day to day. tight calf? miss a week. sore shoulder? out for months, possibly whole season.

Frankly, due to #7 I'm about ready for greenies to return to the game along with some PEDs aimed at keeping players healthy. Sick of the sore shoulders leading to pitchers being out for months to whole seasons with no specific injury event to point to. It's all ridiculous.

To be fair they've probably been doing half of #4 for decades, at least the tape room stuff

 

[Tschumi]

My ex wife also had a major cheating problem

Fucking golden sun you legend teezzy

 

[DetectiveBananas]

Which teams do you think will suffer the most if MLB actually cracks down on pitchers?

 

[SlimySnake]

UPDATE:

Its been a month and several pitchers have been exposed. The feared Yankees closed who was hitting 103 eariler this year with a 0.39 ERA in the first two months now has a 23 ERA since the ban. lmao.

Cole also has an ERA over 5 since the ban. Prior to the ban, his ERA was 1.3.

What a bunch of fucking cheaters.

_________________________________________________
Some stats from the NY Post:

But the Yankees had the majors’ second-best ERA (3.16) through June 2, and since the memo that there would be a crackdown went out on June 3, they had the fifth-worst (5.47).

 

[INC]

Cheating at rounders lol

 

[DeepBreath87]

UPDATE:

Its been a month and several pitchers have been exposed. The feared Yankees closed who was hitting 103 eariler this year with a 0.39 ERA in the first two months now has a 23 ERA since the ban. lmao.

Cole also has an ERA over 5 since the ban. Prior to the ban, his ERA was 1.3.

What a bunch of fucking cheaters.

_________________________________________________
Some stats from the NY Post:

Yet somehow they’ve managed not to decapitate hitters with uncontrollable fastballs.

 

[EverydayBeast]

Sign stealing, grip substance, steroids, have been going on for a while, Indians lost to the Astros and a chance to go to the World Series because someone in the crowd had a camera stealing signs.

If this cheating has been going on and you’re still getting hits you’re a freak and it’s chalked up to
Talent and hard work vs cheaters.

 

[OmegaSupreme]

I miss the old days when they were all drunks. At least they were honest drunks.

 

[CrankyJay™]

I saw Ohtani pitch to the Yankees last week, he was absolutely awful.

 

[Rock And Roll]

I saw Ohtani pitch to the Yankees last week, he was absolutely awful.

Ohtani is always bad in the first inning, he struggles with command. If he can make it out of the first he's good. I wouldn't attribute the one start due to a lack of sticky stuff, although I'm not saying he didn't use it.

 

[CrankyJay™]

Ohtani is always bad in the first inning, he struggles with command. If he can make it out of the first he's good. I wouldn't attribute the one start due to a lack of sticky stuff, although I'm not saying he didn't use it.

At what point do the umps start looking at the catchers as the ones putting crap on the balls?

 

[SlimySnake]

Ohtani is always bad in the first inning, he struggles with command. If he can make it out of the first he's good. I wouldn't attribute the one start due to a lack of sticky stuff, although I'm not saying he didn't use it.

I watched that inning live and Michael Kay pointed out how he is prone to walking hitters. Well, the Yankees walk a lot, and Othani just couldnt find the zone. He faced all 9 batters and just gave up two hits. The yankees have an awful .292 slugging percentage with 2 outs and RISP which is almost 100 points below the league average so all he had to do was just throw the ball over the plate and they wouldve eventually grounded into a double play.

I am guessing the next time he faces the yankees, he is going to destroy them. They are literally the worst hitting team in baseball. (fewest runs scored)

 

[DeepBreath87]

I watched that inning live and Michael Kay pointed out how he is prone to walking hitters. Well, the Yankees walk a lot, and Othani just couldnt find the zone. He faced all 9 batters and just gave up two hits. The yankees have an awful .292 slugging percentage with 2 outs and RISP which is almost 100 points below the league average so all he had to do was just throw the ball over the plate and they wouldve eventually grounded into a double play.

I am guessing the next time he faces the yankees, he is going to destroy them. They are literally the worst hitting team in baseball. (fewest runs scored)

How is that possible with all the money they've poured into sluggers in the past few years.

 

[Rock And Roll]

At what point do the umps start looking at the catchers as the ones putting crap on the balls?

Cant have Yadi looking bad

I watched that inning live and Michael Kay pointed out how he is prone to walking hitters. Well, the Yankees walk a lot, and Othani just couldnt find the zone. He faced all 9 batters and just gave up two hits. The yankees have an awful .292 slugging percentage with 2 outs and RISP which is almost 100 points below the league average so all he had to do was just throw the ball over the plate and they wouldve eventually grounded into a double play.

I am guessing the next time he faces the yankees, he is going to destroy them. They are literally the worst hitting team in baseball. (fewest runs scored)

Yeah anytime I've watched Ohtani start he tries too hard to get pinpoint location in the first. Not saying there's anything wrong with trying to get your release down but if you're walking batters constantly in the first it's probably better to just attack the zone and then start moving outwards as the game progresses. I think he might be over amped too at the start of the game.

 

[SlimySnake]

How is that possible with all the money they've poured into sluggers in the past few years.

It's a mystery. Analytics suggest that they have the fifth highest hard hit balls with 2 outs and RISP, but by far the lowest launch angles with 2 outs and RISP. That tells me that other teams analytics have figured out how to pitch to them. The problem with focusing too much on analytics is that the other teams have MIT nerds too.

The deadened ball this year could be another reason. They were hitting home runs left and right in 2018 and 2019 (broke HR records in both years) with juiced up balls, and now all of their hitters have seen their slugging numbers go down.

Yeah anytime I've watched Ohtani start he tries too hard to get pinpoint location in the first. Not saying there's anything wrong with trying to get your release down but if you're walking batters constantly in the first it's probably better to just attack the zone and then start moving outwards as the game progresses. I think he might be over amped too at the start of the game.

Despite his bad start, I gotta say that series with the Yankees proved to me that he is a total stud. A superstar. A big game player. Charming, good looking, incredible power (he hit an 80 mph curveball 117 mph into the stands in the first game of that series. Which is apparently a record difference in ball speeds) and the fact that he can pitch is insane. I kept trying to tell my 6 year old why this is so amazing because even I feel I am taking this for granted. No one has done what hes doing since Babe Ruth a 100 years ago.

No idea wtf hes doing in Anaheim. They wasted Mike Trout. I feel like no one knows who he is outside of Baseball. And now they will do the same to Otahni.

 

[StormCell]

I miss the days of dumb baseball.

 

[SlimySnake]

Great article.

MLB’s crackdown on sticky stuff has decimated Yankees star’s effectiveness

Data: FanGraphs; Chart: Andrew Witherspoon/AxiosGerrit Cole signed a nine-year, $324 million contract with the Yankees in 2019 — the largest ever by average annual value.Why it matters: If the first month of MLB's sticky-stuff crackdown is any indication, Cole and the Yanks may be in for a bumpy...

www.yahoo.com

By the numbers: On June 3, the day of Cole's 12th start of the season, word got out that MLB would soon begin enforcing its rule against foreign substances. Since then, he's been a completely different pitcher.

• His ERA and WHIP through his first 11 starts were a sterling 1.78 and 0.83, respectively. In six starts since, they're 5.24 and 1.22.
• He's striking out 20% fewer batters per nine innings and walking more than twice as many, while his WAR (wins above replacement player) has actually gone down.
• Wild stat: Cole has allowed as many home runs in his last three starts (five) as he did in his first 11.

 

[StormCell]

Great article.

MLB’s crackdown on sticky stuff has decimated Yankees star’s effectiveness

Data: FanGraphs; Chart: Andrew Witherspoon/AxiosGerrit Cole signed a nine-year, $324 million contract with the Yankees in 2019 — the largest ever by average annual value.Why it matters: If the first month of MLB's sticky-stuff crackdown is any indication, Cole and the Yanks may be in for a bumpy...

www.yahoo.com

By the numbers: On June 3, the day of Cole's 12th start of the season, word got out that MLB would soon begin enforcing its rule against foreign substances. Since then, he's been a completely different pitcher.

• His ERA and WHIP through his first 11 starts were a sterling 1.78 and 0.83, respectively. In six starts since, they're 5.24 and 1.22.
• He's striking out 20% fewer batters per nine innings and walking more than twice as many, while his WAR (wins above replacement player) has actually gone down.
• Wild stat: Cole has allowed as many home runs in his last three starts (five) as he did in his first 11.

It's not that surprising. I imagine he's having to learn how to throw the baseball again. It has a different feel and doesn't move like it had been.

 

[Excess]

Used to watch almost every Yankees game. Today, I couldn't even tell you who their players are anymore, let alone their record.

Fuck MLB, fuck the NFL, and fuck the NBA. NHL is a breddy gud gai tho.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Aroldis Chapman getting absolutely destroyed too since crackdown. June got to be his worst month long stint in his career. July already bad too.

Aroldis Chapman 2021 Pitching Game Logs | Baseball-Reference.com

 

[MastaKiiLA]

Has there been any analysis of spin rates since the crackdown?

I find it a bit amusing that I've taken far more interest in this cheating scandal than I have in the actual sport itself. Much like I'll spend hours watching John Bois do Chart Party or Pretty Good YT episodes on baseball, but haven't watched a game on TV in over a decade, and the only baseball action I've seen was a Marlins game I went to, where Ichiro hit what ended up being his last career HR.

Baseball isn't for me, but the metrics side of things has always been compelling.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Has there been any analysis of spin rates since the crackdown?

I find it a bit amusing that I've taken far more interest in this cheating scandal than I have in the actual sport itself. Much like I'll spend hours watching John Bois do Chart Party or Pretty Good YT episodes on baseball, but haven't watched a game on TV in over a decade, and the only baseball action I've seen was a Marlins game I went to, where Ichiro hit what ended up being his last career HR.

Baseball isn't for me, but the metrics side of things has always been compelling.

I hear ya.

Watching a baseball game is boring as hell unless it's playoffs.

But out of the sports I like the most: hockey, basketball, baseball (in that order), I find I enjoy looking at baseball stats the most. Its also the sport with giant salary spike contracts (as soon as a player gets one lucky season). Then skim baseball-reference salary section and laugh how a team is paying $20 million per year for next 5 years for a player that dropped like a rock after a big contract and doesn't even really play anymore.

Out of all the key sports, no doubt the sport with the most volatile contracts and rollercoaster performance from year to year.

 

[Shadowplay1979]

Very interesting inside info from Buster Olney. He got some details on a meeting between the owners, MLB, Players Association and the Umpires that took place last week.

Some details:
- Starting this week, Umpires will receive Scouting info that lists all the suspected pitchers and their tells. MLB has been collecting this info over the course of this season.
- Umps will be allowed to search players and eject them
- 10 Game Bans WITHOUT pay.
- Position Players were turning in their own pitchers by submitting to MLB video evidence of their teammates applying illegal substances. Crazy stuff.
- Position players/Hitters are the ones who forced MLB's hands.



This is unrelated, but when it comes to improving the game of baseball, robo umpires need to come in sooner than later. Umps are having an awful year (could be due to the ball moving around due to spinrate) but stuff like this is way too common. Look at how far outside that pitch is, and it is not even that uncommon. Has happened 3 times in the last 10 Yankees games.

I have never seen umpires as bad as they have been this year. Its almost getting to the point where you dont know if you should swing at a ball or not because the umps have been calling em so far outside.

 

[SireSmogMurk]

I have been off baseball since the strike of 1994. I remember the strike of 1994. The family was going through some of the hardest times we went through with finances being a chief concern, but at least young me had baseball. Younger me watched those pampered man child ball playing shits, who were extremely well paid, turn their backs on America. Up until the final second I swore loudly, "baseball won't do this to us, the cubs won't do this to us" ... but they did... they all did. The MLB further went on to set the record for largest number of games not played not due to inclement weather ( IE: The weather was fine but You didn't play because you were a diaper baby).

I've said it before but i'll say it here on GAF as well... I'll never watch another game of baseball until someone steals that record from them. Safe to say I don't think I'll ever have to worry about baseball ever again. I'm actually dismayed that people seem to have forgiven baseball.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I have never seen umpires as bad as they have been this year. Its almost getting to the point where you dont know if you should swing at a ball or not because the umps have been calling em so far outside.

Everyone knows players cheating. Umpires at fault. They know it. They could had checked players. I don't think pitchers have only been ratted out the past 2 months in history. I'm sure pitchers have been goofing around forever.

If umps have tossed out the occasional player for using a pine tar bat (George Brett HR), then toss out pitchers dicking around with substances too.

But they never have.

Only way around this is if MLB has purposely told umpires union to hold back or else the game looks bad. But now it comes to this and how sketchy it looks the whole time and not just a couple pitchers doing it making it hard to catch.

 

[Shadowplay1979]

Everyone knows players cheating. Umpires at fault. They know it. They could had checked players. I don't think pitchers have only been ratted out the past 2 months in history. I'm sure pitchers have been goofing around forever.

If umps have tossed out the occasional player for using a pine tar bat (George Brett HR), then toss out pitchers dicking around with substances too.

But they never have.

Only way around this is if MLB has purposely told umpires union to hold back or else the game looks bad. But now it comes to this and how sketchy it looks the whole time and not just a couple pitchers doing it making it hard to catch.

i was talking about their calls

 

[dave_d]

If umps have tossed out the occasional player for using a pine tar bat (George Brett HR), then toss out pitchers dicking around with substances too.

It should be pointed out that while Brett was thrown out after hitting a home run with a bat with illegal pine tar that decision got overturned because Brett..... Well ok it was really overturned because Brett was too popular so he gets away with it. (It was kind of cool how Martin screwed over Brett by forcing the umps to follow the rules.)