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Batman v Superman Ultimate Cut |OT| - Men are still good (out now)

Veelk

Banned
Uhh, Caine did the following: make breakfast and give advice. That is about it Calling Irons one trick pony but naming Caine Alfred as the better one...yeah no. Irons did way more. He actually helps on missions, does research, builds stuff and still takes care of Bruce etc. If anything Caine was the stereotype Alfred; the loveable grandpa figure.

I guess pulling Bruce out of a burning building is typical Alfred material? What about the time he rescues him after he was douced in fear gas? Two straight up hero moments that involve him actively, personally rescuing Batman.

And that's just Begins.
 
I guess pulling Bruce out of a burning building is typical Alfred material? What about the time he rescues him after he was douced in fear gas? Two straight up hero moments that involve him actively, personally rescuing Batman.

And that's just Begins.

To be fair, those are also films solely focused on Batman whereas this one has to split focus between two protagonists
 

006hyd_diane_lane_004.jpg

Indeed..
 

Veelk

Banned
To be fair, those are also films solely focused on Batman whereas this one has to split focus between two protagonists

Fair, but we still have the problem of characterization. Every line Irons gives is either stoic or sarcastic. It's hard to catch an emotional range on the guy, compared to Michael Caine, who goes from happy to sarcastic, to sad, to determined, to upset, etc. Again, Batman had the fight of his life, where he and alfred legitimately thought that he would probably die, and he has absolutely no reason during the fight nor after it.

I fully appreciate Iron's abiltiy to be sarcastic, I really do. If there was an audio of Irons just saying sarcastic things at the listener for three hours, I'd happily listen to it. But he just doesn't compete with Caine's Alfred as an actual character.
 

IconGrist

Member
I guess pulling Bruce out of a burning building is typical Alfred material? What about the time he rescues him after he was douced in fear gas? Two straight up hero moments that involve him actively, personally rescuing Batman.

And that's just Begins.

Yea, because there are no further examples of Alfred heroically saving Bruce. :p
 
At the end of Man of Steel, I thought Perry White and co. knew that Clark was Superman, but now Perry's being all JJJ on him.

I like Clark's extra investigatory scenes though.

In truth I'm not clear on whether Perry knows or not.

I will say, Perry calling Clark a nerd is, you know, despite the loose clothes you can see his well defined delts.
 
Just saw the extended cut, thought it was awesome. Cleared up a lot of poor editing for me, and definitely made Superman feel more like a main character than he was in the theatrical.

ugh, fuck this movie.

You could always exit the discussion if you hate the movie so much. I realize this is probably foolish to say to the top poster for this thread, but still...
 
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Lord Virgin

Unconfirmed Member
I guess pulling Bruce out of a burning building is typical Alfred material? What about the time he rescues him after he was douced in fear gas? Two straight up hero moments that involve him actively, personally rescuing Batman.

And that's just Begins.

Point being? You are dodging everything I said when comparing the two but instead just name two things Caine did in the movies. To prove he is not a one trick pony? Fair enough, but neither is Irons Alfred who in just one movie (not even a straight up Batman movie with limited screen time) showed to be useful for more stuff than Caine ever did.
 

Veelk

Banned
Yea, because there are no further examples of Alfred heroically saving Bruce. :p

Yeah, because he does other stuff. He alludes to a life of war, which is more interesting coming from the humble and soft grandpa than the gruff guy who'd you'd expect to have done rough shit in the past in TDK, engages bruce more constantly and consistently and actually makes some headway (as opposed to Affleck, who just rebuffs what Alfred says to the point that the only reason Alfred is speaking at all is so the audience can see how EXTREME Bruce is), and then makes a tearful departure from Bruce's life. It's good stuff.

I'm not going to make judgements on my predictions of what Iron's will do as Alfred, but given the direction this universe is headed in, he's probably just going to have some badass fight scenes because he's a gruff badass. And narratively, that's boring. I am not going to be surprised or interested when Alfred is revealed to be able to do hand to hand combat or whatever. If anything, I'm more curious where he got his engineering expertise.

Contrast! Contrast and range is what makes characters interesting and feel like people. Right now, Iron's is just a Sarcasm and halfhearted ineffective advice dispenser.

You could always exit the discussion if you hate the movie so much. I realize this is probably foolish to say to the top poster for this thread, but still...

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=208642500&postcount=544

Like I say there, how much I like a movie isn't really that important to me.

Point being? You are dodging everything I said when comparing the two but instead just name two things Caine did in the movies. To prove he is not a one trick pony? Fair enough, but neither is Irons Alfred who in just one movie (not even a straight up Batman movie with limited screen time) showed to be useful for more stuff than Caine ever did.

Alfred actively coming in and rescuing Bruce makes him an active character, as opposed to Alfred in BvS whose role is entirely passive. He snarks at Bruce, he throws ignored advice, he works on his tools, etc.

Alfred of BB has a much greater impact on Bruce as a character because he has more range, there is more communication between the characters, and being an actually active part of his life by showing up to rescue him is more than just a function to keep him biologically alive. Alfred in BB, during the house fire scene, served to emotionally reinvorgorate Bruce into taking up the fight, renew his faith and get meet his opponent.

If the best thing you can say Iron's Alfred does is provide tech support, then he is a one trick pony, and his trick is being a plot device, not a companion.

What's wrong with a director putting symbolism in their film?

As a general technique applied to directors in general? Nothing, obviously.

Snyder, however, is very bad at using symbolism. The reference to Moby Dick adds no information we didn't already know, is distracting, inappropriately placed, and in general unnecessary. It's not that symbolism is bad, just that this is a bad instance of symbolism.
 
I am highly disappointed that Jena Malone is not Carrie Kelly.

I guess she'll show up in The Flash and bang Barry.

Edit: oh, so KGBeast had the branded criminal murdered.
 

LowRoller

Member
My favourite lex moment is the look of fear on his face when batman tells him he's going to arkham. Really makes me curious how much of batmans rogue gallery is locked up in there.
 

Alienous

Member
I really like a lot of BvS' ideas, and among those is Alfred being the Wayne family's head of security.

That just works so well. He's this guy who feels indebted to Bruce after letting him and his family down, even though it isn't his fault.
 

Cassano

Member
As a general technique applied to directors in general? Nothing, obviously.

Snyder, however, is very bad at using symbolism. The reference to Moby Dick adds no information we didn't already know, is distracting, inappropriately placed, and in general unnecessary. It's not that symbolism is bad, just that this is a bad instance of symbolism.

I'm sure you know, but symbolism can be used in multiple ways. It doesn't have to add new information; it can be used to as a tool to reinforce current themes/narratives in a film.

As far as being distracting and inappropriately placed: it's on screen for like 2 seconds, and is at the point of the film where 'ahab' is fighting the 'whale'. Seems like a perfect place to put it as any?
 
The Knightmare scene I get.

The Flash cameo in this spot is dumb.

Flash cameo is dumb for a bunch of reasons:

1.) It's not clear it's The Flash. Like, at all. Nobody casually recognizes that outfit. I have a similar complaint about the Robin suit. Moment was too brief to casually notice the R on the chest because most will be reading the hard-to-read text on the chest in the 1.5 seconds the suit is centered on screen.

2.) The soundFX going on at the time make it difficult to understand what he's saying, even on repeat watches.

3.) What he was saying is too cryptic to add anything to the movie. It he had spoken of some sort of dark future, that'd be cool. But it was just too broken up to make sense and thus added no value to the movie.

That said, I'm impressed that you guys haven't grown tired of dissecting and analyzing every inch of the film. I don't understand the need to do so. I'm pretty sure we could go through every popular movie of 2016 and pick out all the things we didn't like. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Movies are here for you to enjoy; not material for your upcoming thesis. Some of you guys really need to take a step back.
 

Bleepey

Member
It's stupid because it's extremely lazy and weird writing. Batman is hellbent on KILLING this guy whom he percieves to be a complete monster, he has a spear to his throat, ready for the kill-shot. Then because Superman says his mommy's name with no further explanation, Batman and him are "friends," a word he actually uses to describe Superman. I don't buy it as something that would actually happen between two men trying to kill each other.

Superman referring to his mother via her actually name is dumb and lazy writing as well. It just doesn't make sense.

The whole event was just silly, weird, and anti-climatic. It was the film's titular fight and ended in less than 10 minutes because their mom has the same name? Few exchanges after that? Superman can't even speak for himself, Lois says Martha's his mom.

If we're gonna use key words to describe why the moment was bad, I found it lazy, rushed, bizarre, and anti-climatic. Not the way you end the film's titular battle of the gods.

When people say this I conclude one of a couple of things:

1) they ignore the fact he said "you're killing Martha"

2) he tries to say Kent. Maybe the journalist wasn't that articulate because he had a very powerful allergen to his face and a boot to his neck.

3) if you wanted someone at your dying breath to save your mum's life and you have a secret identity. Are you gonna say save my mum or are you gonna say save Mrs So and So
 
That said, I'm impressed that you guys haven't grown tired of dissecting and analyzing every inch of the film. I don't understand the need to do so. I'm pretty sure we could go through every popular movie of 2016 and pick out all the things we didn't like. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Movies are here for you to enjoy; not material for your upcoming thesis. Some of you guys really need to take a step back.

But then the wrong team wins!
 

Alienous

Member
The Flash moment will work when you get the pay-off in a future film,
as Snyder has said (or implied) that we'll see Flash reaching back in time I'm a future movie
.

Also I'm pretty sure Batman v Superman is a movie that wants to be dissected and taken seriously. It tries to be more than just a blockbuster and people talk about the attempt.
 
The Flash moment will work when you get the pay-off in a future film,
as Snyder has said (or implied) that we'll see Flash reaching back in time I'm a future movie
.

Also I'm pretty sure Batman v Superman is a movie that wants to be dissected and taken seriously. It tries to handle heady themes, and people talk about the attempt.

Yeah, I know it'll have a payoff, but its just not that well done. Would rather it was clearer. Less weirdly cryptic and never mentioned again.
 

Veelk

Banned
Yeah, I know it'll have a payoff, but its just not that well done. Would rather it was clearer. Less weirdly cryptic and never mentioned again.

You know, I actually didn't mind Wonder Women viewing the trailers for the rest of the JL in theaters, but it was kind of silly watching it now. Especially with Wondy constant :eek: face during it. With the rock music playing in the background. And placed right before the titular fight too for some bizarre reason. I supposed it'd be awkward anywhere in the movie except at the very end maybe, but there, of all places?
 

RiccochetJ

Gold Member
Bought it from Amazon and watched it. Never saw the theatrical version. I quite enjoyed myself. I thought it was going to be horrible based on what I've read around here.

Things I liked:
* Batman - He was amazing. I loved the speed they had him move. None of the other movies did that. When he was Bruce, it was also pretty good.
I would have liked to see him being Bruce Wayne and running his empire though.
* Superman - I genuinely liked how they treated him. Don't know if it was missing in the theatrical cut, but I could understand how hard it is being him.
* Lex Luthor - Going for that Heath Ledger Joker vibe. I liked it. Especially during a certain scene.

Things I didn't like:
* Batman -
He was a bit murdery for my tastes.
*
Wonder Woman - She was amazing in the scenes she was in, but it was a bit out of nowhere.
* The frachiziness of it all. There was some scenes where they spent way too much time letting the audience know that they have plans.

Anyways, I liked it and don't think it was the complete dumpster fire that I saw some around here claim.
 
You know, I actually didn't mind Wonder Women viewing the trailers for the rest of the JL in theaters, but it was kind of silly watching it now. Especially with Wondy constant :eek: face during it. With the rock music playing in the background. And placed right before the titular fight too for some bizarre reason. I supposed it'd be awkward anywhere in the movie except at the very end maybe, but there, of all places?

Why not just have Bruce and Diana watch it together at the end credits or something
 
The confrontation between Lex and Superman on the rooftop is really good. I like it. Such uber drama.

Edit: wonder woman checking out Bruce's email is not that bad. Oddly placed, but at least out shows that she can kinda trust Bruce.
 
Wait, I'm confused: when did Clark figure out Bruce is Batman? Lex didn't tell him.

Oh, he put two and two together cause he was acting shady at the party.
 

kyser73

Member
I wonder if there will ever be a movie set in the many, many rehabilitation clinics for disabled henchpersons, all of whom have been seriously injured or crippled for life by the caring Batman.

I really do love this huge ethical blindspot - I won't like him if he kills, but leaving a trail of permanently crippled people is A-OK.

Wait, I'm confused: when did Clark figure out Bruce is Batman? Lex didn't tell him.

Oh, he put two and two together cause he was acting shady at the party.

Maybe he used his super hearing and could eavesdrop on Bruce communicating with Alfred, which is what happens in the film.
 

venom473

Member
Wait, I'm confused: when did Clark figure out Bruce is Batman? Lex didn't tell him.

Oh, he put two and two together cause he was acting shady at the party.

I think he was able to listen in on the radio conversation between Bruce and his butler because he has some kind of superhuman hearing abilities?
 
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Lord Virgin

Unconfirmed Member
Wait, I'm confused: when did Clark figure out Bruce is Batman? Lex didn't tell him.

Oh, he put two and two together cause he was acting shady at the party.

Either that or you know, when he tells him to stop being Batman he just used his X-ray vision to see who is behind the mask.
 
Desiccated Superman in space is really creepy.

Wonder Woman is such a baller. And dat music.

Wonder Woman and Superman vs Doomsday is just fantastic to see on screen.

I wonder if there will ever be a movie set in the many, many rehabilitation clinics for disabled henchpersons, all of whom have been seriously injured or crippled for life by the caring Batman.

I really do love this huge ethical blindspot - I won't like him if he kills, but leaving a trail of permanently crippled people is A-OK.



Maybe he used his super hearing and could eavesdrop on Bruce communicating with Alfred, which is what happens in the film.

I think he was able to listen in on the radio conversation between Bruce and his butler because he has some kind of superhuman hearing abilities?

That's totally what I meant
 
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Lord Virgin

Unconfirmed Member
What would you say was the moral of this movie?
Was a moral necessary at all?

If your mother is named Martha, you are friends with BATMAN! How cool is that?!

But no, a moral is not necessary. Plenty of movies regarded as great (by the majority of people) don't have one.
 

AxelFoley

Member
Just saw the extended cut, thought it was awesome. Cleared up a lot of poor editing for me, and definitely made Superman feel more like a main character than he was in the theatrical.



You could always exit the discussion if you hate the movie so much. I realize this is probably foolish to say to the top poster for this thread, but still...


LOL damn.

I never understood people who talk about something so damn much that they don't like.
 
I see discussion about Gaf's favorite movie is still going strong. I'll watch the ultimate cut once I forget more things about the movie, it ain't easy to get me to sit through 3 hours.
 

Enosh

Member
watched if for the first time, loved it, great movie that just looks beautiful, only thing I didn't like was the email thing, honestly just screamed "studio meddling" to me

I really hope they don't go the marvel route with "lol funny one liners" in JL because of the backlash over this one...
 
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Lord Virgin

Unconfirmed Member
watched if for the first time, loved it, great movie that just looks beautiful, only thing I didn't like was the email thing, honestly just screamed "studio meddling" to me

I really hope they don't go the marvel route with "lol funny one liners" in JL because of the backlash over this one...

Yeah...about that.....
 
Jesse Eisenberg's quieter moments are better than his Joker moments. They should have toned him down a bit.

I agree with this. His Lex character could have been better if he toned down the Heath ledger impersonation. I also liked Lex's awkward speech at his event.


Wait, I'm confused: when did Clark figure out Bruce is Batman? Lex didn't tell him.

Oh, he put two and two together cause he was acting shady at the party.

It was a combination of things. First it was the phone conversations that Bruce was having with Alfred at the party. It was too suspicious for Clark not to notice. Second, Clark does have x-ray vision in this series. He could easily see right through the Batman disguise.

They also made it a big deal that
Superman couldn't see through the lead compartment of the wheelchair that was rigged with explosives. This gives away that he has x-ray vision.
 

IconGrist

Member
It was a combination of things. First it was the phone conversations that Bruce was having with Alfred at the party. It was too suspicious for Clark not to notice. Second, Clark does have x-ray vision in this series. He could easily see right through the Batman disguise.

They also made it a big deal that
Superman couldn't see through the lead compartment of the wheelchair that was rigged with explosives. This gives away that he has x-ray vision.

Not to mention the three times he uses x-ray vision in MoS.
 
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