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Batman v Superman Ultimate Cut |OT| - Men are still good (out now)

D

Discotheque

Banned
there is no logic to the nightmare scene. But yeah the whole thing is supposed to be a vision of an alternate future as presented by The Flash. Having him wake up from it (twice!) is just a dumb decision from the filmmakers to confuse the audience. Personally I think they should have cut it from the movie, would have helped big time.

Yeah Lex invited Clark to the party, he's playing games with these heroes and I imagine he really enjoyed seeing batman and superman face to face without them knowing it. There are so many inconsistencies in this film that I question why I like the movie but I just totally bought into the world they presented. God it really needed another run through on the script though. I like the ideas presented in here but half of it gets contradicted by something else. At the end of the day I just really liked their approach to superman (stupid vision aside) in our world and also a majority of the Batman stuff. Also I'm a sucker for Fong's visuals. They are heavily stylized and color-graded but it works for me.
 
S

Shaanyboi

Banned
brianmcdoogle said:
Ok, but I have then a followup question. Bruce Wayne was dreaming, had his Mad Max sequence, wakes up, and then has this vision, and then wakes up again? So, The Flash, who again, am I supposed to know who this is within the confines of the movie from the poorly shot security camera footage and the mask covering most of his face, traveled from the past into the future to speak to Bruce Wayne in a dream? He has a dream, is Mad Max, wakes up, see this vision of The Flash, and wakes up again? Huh? And why speak of Lois Lane and not Martha McGuffin Wayne/Kent?



I guess, but it seems to come out of nowhere. The computer does't assume the shape of any other stuff, so it just happens to form an alien, and I was confused, other than thinking "well, i guess this is setting up a sequel or something stupid".

Side question: who invited Clark Kent to the party? Was it Lex Luthor?
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The order of events completely fuck up whatever possible coherence could have been pulled from that Mad Max sequence. If Flash just popped through while Bruce was sitting in the cave, grabbed Bruce, and then we see the nightmare? Atleast you could extrapolate from that "Oh he saw a vision of the future because of the Flash opening a hole in time" or some shit. Instead... it's nonsense to anyone who isn't a DC fan and knows what a parademon is.

And yeah, the assumption is that it was Lex who sent the invite. It seems he really wanted to make a joke to Bruce about not picking a fight with Clark and felt compelled to say it in person.
 
D

Dalek

Member
dmshaposv said:
ITT: good cinematography = shadowy silhouettes in grim dark scenes.


Unfotunately, thats not how it works. Even someone like Roger Deakins believes cinematography isnt about being good or bad - it'd rather be not talked about if anything.

The snyder/fong esque cinematography is too forced - too many portentous shots like super jesus floating. It is also very very derivative. Snyder just recreates iconic scenes from comic frames. And apes gimmick of the time (snap zooms, abrams style anamorphic flares).

On the other hand, TDK cinematography is a class apart. Nolan/pfister cinematography is always trying to deliver crisp clarity in ridiculously dark scenes. They went with the big sensor imax cameras for this reason. The lighting in every shot never feels derivative but natural - but there is so much depth in every scene. The wide shots in most chase scenes have a breathtaking scale none of shaky cam earth terraforming scenes in MoS had. And one is just a bunch of cops after batman vs. alien invasion of an entire city.

The major difference between snyder/fong and nolan/pfister is subtlety. It goes a long way.
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This is a great post. There are so many GAFers that think just because a movie has dark scenes it has good "cinematography". I remember in the thread for the recent Fantastic Four trailer there were people praising the "cinematography" of the film...simply because the director turned a few lights off.
 
D

Discotheque

Banned
nah I think BvS legit has very solid shots. I wouldn't put it over TDK/TDKR though but I do absolutely find it to be one of the best shot superhero films. No need in reducing every fan of Fong's visuals to being that single-minded. Not to mention him and Pfister are just going for completely different styles. Fong isn't attempting subtle here, this movie looks appropriately bombastic and mythical.

Whereas Pfister seemed to be looking at Mann for inspiration instead, who shoots city streets and workmanlike professional cops/criminals like no other. I vastly prefer TDK but I love what Snyder/Fong did with BvS visually. Also I think they filmed a better introduction to Batman honestly when comparing the Begins scene and the one in here. It was very seedy and sold batman as a demon of the night.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
BvS has a lot of legit quality shots. I would put TDK over it in terms of overall quality but BvS definitely has some good stuff in it.

And BvS also has some really bad shots/tones/lighting in it as well.
 
B

broncobuster

Banned
dmshaposv said:
ITT: good cinematography = shadowy silhouettes in grim dark scenes.


Unfotunately, thats not how it works. Even someone like Roger Deakins believes cinematography isnt about being good or bad - it'd rather be not talked about if anything.

The snyder/fong esque cinematography is too forced - too many portentous shots like super jesus floating. It is also very very derivative. Snyder just recreates iconic scenes from comic frames. And apes gimmick of the time (snap zooms, abrams style anamorphic flares).

On the other hand, TDK cinematography is a class apart. Nolan/pfister cinematography is always trying to deliver crisp clarity in ridiculously dark scenes. They went with the big sensor imax cameras for this reason. The lighting in every shot never feels derivative but natural - but there is so much depth in every scene. The wide shots in most chase scenes have a breathtaking scale none of shaky cam earth terraforming scenes in MoS had. And one is just a bunch of cops after batman vs. alien invasion of an entire city.

The major difference between snyder/fong and nolan/pfister is subtlety. It goes a long way.
Click to expand...

Fong didn't work on Man of Steel. It's quite noticeable how the styles differ between the two, despite them being conflated with one another. As for shots aiming to make Superman seem majestic, at least in BvS it's in the context of talking heads discussing his role in the world. It can get overboard from time to time but those in particular are well suited to the moment, thematically. Superman arriving to the court hearing is a better example, imo. And while I personally I prefer Pfister's style, he's not a great contrast to Fong, aside from the Batman connection.
 
S

Shaanyboi

Banned
I feel I should also mention how hilariously in-your-face the funeral scene is now with the zoom in close to the priest practically saying "SUPERMAN'S GOING TO COME BACK TO LIFE. SUPERMAN'S COMING BACK TO LIFE. SUPERMAN'S COMING BACK TO LIFE."
 
P

peanutbutterlatte

Member
The fact this film refers to Superman as "The Superman" just seems so pretentious.

Just started watching it and the Bruce/Alfred scene is the first one where I'm willing to actually pay attention.
 
E

Effect

Member
peanutbutterlatte said:
The fact this film refers to Superman as "The Superman" just seems so pretentious.

Just started watching it and the Bruce/Alfred scene is the first one where I'm willing to actually pay attention.
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This is the problem when some people watch this film. You need to pay attention from start to finish because a lot is tossed at you. Even more so with the UC. Doing commentary on the first viewing or trying to analyze it is a bad idea. Just watch and pay attention if you're watching this film for the first time. On a second watch through try to pick it apart.

However if one isn't willing to pay attention, that's not asking to much of a person, for any whatever reason they really shouldn't watch or at least they shouldn't bother talking about the film in any critical way.
 
MisterHero

MisterHero

Super Member
"The Superman" is a stand-in for metahumans. To be fair though, metahumans wouldn't even fit because he's Kryptonian, not a scientifically or mythologically enhanced human.

If they had said "The Ubermensch" or Overman, Batman would also qualify because all that means is they are people able to create and impose their own rules/will. Justice League is a created by these people, not by normal law. Though FDR helped create the Justice Society IIRC

It works.
 
B

Blader

Member
bob_arctor said:
Why do you think the film makers did that, aside from being uppity, elitist snobs, I mean.
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BvS is Snyder's attempt at making a DC version of Watchmen. Superman isn't Superman because he's Manhattan; Batman isn't Batman because he's Rorshach. "The Superman" (which is what Manhattan is also referred to as) is Snyder looking at Supes through the Watchmen prism.
 
B

Bleepey

Member
Blader said:
BvS is Snyder's attempt at making a DC version of Watchmen. Superman isn't Superman because he's Manhattan; Batman isn't Batman because he's Rorshach. "The Superman" (which is what Manhattan is also referred to as) is Snyder looking at Supes through the Watchmen prism.
Click to expand...

Is that too unreasonable? Superman being like Dr Manhattan ain't too farfetched. Roarshach I don't quite understand.
 
B

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
Blader said:
BvS is Snyder's attempt at making a DC version of Watchmen. Superman isn't Superman because he's Manhattan; Batman isn't Batman because he's Rorshach. "The Superman" (which is what Manhattan is also referred to as) is Snyder looking at Supes through the Watchmen prism.
Click to expand...


Yes, I know this Blader--though I don't agree that Bats is Rorschach exactly, Supes/Manhattan is a more 1:1 for me. I wanted to see what he would say though.
 
B

Blader

Member
Bleepey said:
Is that too unreasonable? Superman being like Dr Manhattan ain't too farfetched. Roarshach I don't quite understand.
Click to expand...

Well, I didn't say it was unreasonable, but at the same time, is it too unreasonable to want a Batman/Superman movie to have more in common with Batman and Superman than Watchmen? Treating Superman as a Dr. Manhattan analogue (which seems pretty backwards to me; Manhattan is a take on Superman, not the other way around) feels creatively lazy to me, especially since this same director already did a Watchmen movie.

Snyder leaned heavily on Watchmen for this movie and Batman Begins for MoS, so I'm interested to see how original (or not, I guess) his idea of Justice League ends up being.
 
U

UrbanRats

Member
Blader said:
Well, I didn't say it was unreasonable, but at the same time, is it too unreasonable to want a Batman/Superman movie to have more in common with Batman and Superman than Watchmen? Treating Superman as a Dr. Manhattan analogue (which seems pretty backwards to me; Manhattan is a take on Superman, not the other way around) feels creatively lazy to me, especially since this same director already did a Watchmen movie.

Snyder leaned heavily on Watchmen for this movie and Batman Begins for MoS, so I'm interested to see how original (or not, I guess) his idea of Justice League ends up being.
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I think it's a good take, especially since the juxtaposition of Dr.Manhattan side of superman (how the people perceive him) and his human side (how he perceives himself) should be the center of the plot.
Botched execution, but the idea was good.
 
A

Alienous

Member
UrbanRats said:
I think it's a good take, especially since the juxtaposition of Dr.Manhattan side of superman (how the people perceive him) and his human side (how he perceives himself) should be the center of the plot.
Botched execution, but the idea was good.
Click to expand...

BvS in a nutshell.
 
B

Bleepey

Member
tumblr_o9r75cPgh01uk1c13o2_500.gif

I saw this and thought to share.
 
A

Alienous

Member
Ninjimbo said:
Eh, not really. If you're open to the idea, the execution is fine. If you're against it, it's going to fall flat regardless in BvS's case.
Click to expand...

I'm a fan of pretty much all of Batman v Superman's ideas, including a Superman who is emotionally burdened by the weight of the world on his shoulders, whilst simultaneously trying to keep up appearances. They just execute on that really poorly.
 
B

Blader

Member
UrbanRats said:
I think it's a good take, especially since the juxtaposition of Dr.Manhattan side of superman (how the people perceive him) and his human side (how he perceives himself) should be the center of the plot.
Botched execution, but the idea was good.
Click to expand...
Like I said, I thought it was a somewhat creatively lazy idea, but I'm open to be won over in the execution of it. This movie did not do that for me.
 
D

DeathyBoy

Banned
Shaanyboi said:
The order of events completely fuck up whatever possible coherence could have been pulled from that Mad Max sequence. If Flash just popped through while Bruce was sitting in the cave, grabbed Bruce, and then we see the nightmare? Atleast you could extrapolate from that "Oh he saw a vision of the future because of the Flash opening a hole in time" or some shit. Instead... it's nonsense to anyone who isn't a DC fan and knows what a parademon is.

And yeah, the assumption is that it was Lex who sent the invite. It seems he really wanted to make a joke to Bruce about not picking a fight with Clark and felt compelled to say it in person.
Click to expand...

I just want to state that I'm a DC comics fan and that scene doesn't make a damn bit of sense if you know DC lore. The Flash can't make people have dreams of the future.
 
D

Discotheque

Banned
Nah. I'll keep calling it that. He looks like mad max batman. And it's a similar post apocalypse.

I loved the outfit. A shame how useless the scene was to the film and practically detrimental as well in a way (unless snyder somehow gets his injustice timeline some more screen time in future films)
 
J

jackdoe

Member
Ashhong said:
Can you guys stop calling it a Mad Max sequence? It's stupid and lazy and makes no sense.
Click to expand...
Heh, just like the actual sequence itself. Such a terrible scene that was shoehorned into the Terrio script by Snyder and left in the movie because it was filmed on IMAX cameras.
 
B

broncobuster

Banned
Kind of wish it were more Mad Max and they combined the Batmobile scene and Knightmare scene. Get this contrast of Batman in the present using a tracking device, sneaking into Luthor's facility, to the Knightmare where he's chasing down the truck and blowing everybody away. Could've even hand-waved all the killing.
 
A

Ashhong

Member
jackdoe said:
Heh, just like the actual sequence itself. Such a terrible scene that was shoehorned into the Terrio script by Snyder and left in the movie because it was filmed on IMAX cameras.
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Is it 100% confirmed that Terrio put that in there? The scene itself was fine IMO. It just needed the proper context before and after to make it actually matter
 
J

JB1981

Member
Just finished Man of Steel for the umpteen time. I think it's a much better movie, particularly the action and overall pacing. I know it's hated by many but I think it is a good movie and I enjoy it despite its shortcomings.

re: mad max sequence, from what I have read Terrio did not want that scene in the movie but he was overridden by Snyder. Don't have a source for you though.
 
D

Discotheque

Banned
broncobuster said:
Kind of wish it were more Mad Max and they combined the Batmobile scene and Knightmare scene. Get this contrast of Batman in the present using a tracking device, sneaking into Luthor's facility, to the Knightmare where he's chasing down the truck and blowing everybody away. Could've even hand-waved all the killing.
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Awww hell. This idea would have been amazing, so much better than what we had. Plus the prospect of seeing batman get his convoy chase on in the post apocalypse would have been great. Batmobile scene in the present sucked anyways
 
L

Lord Virgin

Unconfirmed Member
JB1981 said:
Just finished Man of Steel for the umpteen time. I think it's a much better movie, particularly the action and overall pacing. I know it's hated by many but I think it is a good movie and I enjoy it despite its shortcomings.

re: mad max sequence, from what I have read Terrio did not want that scene in the movie but he was overridden by Snyder. Don't have a source for you though.
Click to expand...

Iirc Terrio was brought on late for a rewrite and one the first things he did was getting rid of the Knightmare scene. Personally, I want the Injustice/Mad Max JL movie to happen but given the situation that won't ever happen.

Also, MoS is great. That score though....Godtier.
 
B

Bleepey

Member
INST said:
Iirc Terrio was brought on late for a rewrite and one the first things he did was getting rid of the Knightmare scene. Personally, I want the Injustice/Mad Max JL movie to happen but given the situation that won't ever happen.

Also, MoS is great. That score though....Godtier.
Click to expand...

I always thought the knight are sequence was something that would pay off in a few movies as well as make Bruce feel he has to recruit metahumans
 
L

LosDaddie

Banned
I really hated Lex in this movie. But I guess I just prefer the traditional Lex, and not his son.


Ashhong said:
Can you guys stop calling it a Mad Max sequence? It's stupid and lazy and makes no sense.
Click to expand...

I'm still waiting for GIFs of the scene. People love to criticize Nolan's action need to take a look at all the soldiers swinging their guns at Batman in that scene.
 
S

SomedayTheFire

Member
Just watched it. It could have been amazing, however it was not. Not even close. The film looked nice, but that wore off after about 15 minutes.

Every scene seemed way way too long, Snyder seemed to want to linger and hold every scene. There are films where that technique works, but jesus it was so detrimental to this film. There was too much going on and I still felt like it wasted a good portion of the run time on pointless overly long scenes.
 
MisterHero

MisterHero

Super Member
bob_arctor said:
Yes, I know this Blader--though I don't agree that Bats is Rorschach exactly, Supes/Manhattan is a more 1:1 for me. I wanted to see what he would say though.
Click to expand...
Superman was detached in Kingdom Come. He couldn't make a decision on anything, and is only forced to act because Wondy and Bats have their own plans.

It's a Superman thing, especially in the context of The Trinity(tm).
 
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