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Batman v Superman Ultimate Cut |OT| - Men are still good (out now)
- Thread starter Ahasverus
- Start date
well, that was still pretty terrible
wonder woman is the only fun character
batman is super solid, and desperately needs to be in a good movie
everything superman related just bogs the movie down. adams & cavill are bland, but lex is far and away the worst part of the movie. what a terrible performance by eisenberg. he really should have been a "real" jimmy olsen as intended. as-is the character is barely watchable.
2 strikes, DC. i hope Suicide Squad is good, i hope Margot Robbie steals the show and i hope it all leads to a shift in focus towards the Batverse with Affleck in charge instead of Snyder.
and maybe double down on beating Marvel to the female-hero punch. get that spin off movie with Harley & Ivy/Batgirl/Birds of Prey going ASAP.
wonder woman is the only fun character
batman is super solid, and desperately needs to be in a good movie
everything superman related just bogs the movie down. adams & cavill are bland, but lex is far and away the worst part of the movie. what a terrible performance by eisenberg. he really should have been a "real" jimmy olsen as intended. as-is the character is barely watchable.
2 strikes, DC. i hope Suicide Squad is good, i hope Margot Robbie steals the show and i hope it all leads to a shift in focus towards the Batverse with Affleck in charge instead of Snyder.
and maybe double down on beating Marvel to the female-hero punch. get that spin off movie with Harley & Ivy/Batgirl/Birds of Prey going ASAP.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
My wife said to me during the "The bell has been rung, it cannot be unrung" scene: "Did this guy get an Oscar for this role? He deserves one!
Gotta be one of the most polarizing movies out there, at least some The Cable Guy.
Gotta be one of the most polarizing movies out there, at least some The Cable Guy.
Was she being sarcastic? I kinda got what they were goin for with Lex and whilst I don't it was bad, I wouldn't give him an Oscar.
The only complaint about Lex that bugs me is calling him a Ledger Joker rip off. There's only one scene I can think of where the two have similar mannerisms and it's when Ledger Joker says, "...I wouldn't know what to do with it if I caught it!" Other than that he was either very cold and somewhat creepy or laughing manically - neither of which Eisenberg Lex did so I don't know where the comparison stems from.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
Not at all. She didn't like the movie, but thought he did a fantastic job at being creepy, disturbed, maniacal, and menacing in the way only a physically unimposing man can be.
For the record, I like the idea of Lex as a sociopathic weirdo, but didn't LOVE Eisenberg's performance. Didn't think it was horrible, either.
morningbus
Serious Sam is a wicked gahbidge series for chowdaheads.
Did you spend 3 hours watching it or 2 and a half?
The easiest way: Do you remember the African Woman that Lex Luthor
pays to lie to the congressional committee?
If so, you watched the Ultimate Cut as everything involving her was cut from the film.
Doctor Ironic
Member
Only the scenes of her after her first testimonial were cut.
The better metric is if you saw
Batman doesn't have to be a detective in every incarnation.
The one who has a change of heart and apologizes right before the hearing? Where the aide is trying to keep her out of the office? Yeah, that was there. And Superman was shown flying some people out of the bomb zone before a guy said he needed room to work. OP makes it sound like that was also new.
No wonder I was flummoxed at the shitty reception it got. Movie wasn't bad at all. Replace Luthor with even a mediocre villain and it could have been quite good.
EDIT: Yeah I saw that communion scene. Huh. I lucked out.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
Yeah, totally unnecessary. That and some blasphemous phrases I don't care for, either. Snyder2Edgy4Me.
Why does Snyder get shit for this when Civil War had Spiderman saying shit at least once and I am pretty sure they swore at least 3 times. BVS ultimate edition had like what two and one of them was cut short.
Grizzlyjin
Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
My guess would be that the Spider-Man one was played to comedic effect. Like a teenage kid who doesn't say it very often being in awe of something and swearing.
So when it so up in this R rated cut with CG blood, it comes off a little more tacked on. It wasn't really an issue for me personally, but I can see where someone would feel it's unnatural despite the tone of this film.
The image of Lex motioning for them to bring Zod's body forward while smiling is an iconic moment of mad scientist Lex.
Eisenberg just needs a better director to encourage more of that.
Still though. The changes were so minor the rating didn't change in most regions. I know I seem like Snyder's biggest acolyte but it just seems like people find shit to bitch about whilst they let other shit fly. *cough* every Batman ever killing *cough*
I just wish you'd stop trying to make points of comparison. I only follow this thread casually now, but a lot of your talking points amount to "But mom, he doing it too". Context is usually the reason why BvS gets hit for things other movies do. It's the reason there is a world of difference between Baleman's killings vs Batfleck's killings, even when circumstances are otherwise similar. And context is the reason one swearing is juvenile and unnecessary vs another that can be called appropriate.
It'd honestly be better to try and just talk about what BvS does and how it works independently without having every defense for it resort to "Well, they did it"
Succinct Verbosity
Member
Ah yes. I can see why it was taken out and I have no idea why they added it back in.
He'll be back for the upcoming Justice League movie.
WadiumArcadium
Member
The dirt levitating around his coffin answers that question. There's no chance the first Justice League film won't have a Superman.
He actually says, "yea, well, what the fuck do you want?"
It's not nearly as in your face as "who the FUCK are you?!" The "fuck" was barely emphasized, lol. I'm looking at the scene right now. If you need a timestamp it's at 58:25.
That's what I thought when I saw that scene but son told me it was something else.
Context is everything and even then it still doesn't hold up. Keaton cracked smiles whilst blowing people up, Bale was only a fucking hypocrite oh and Jonah Nolan himself admitted Batman kills yet the apologists make excuses that it doesn't count cos reasons.
Also it's amusing you are calling swearing juvenile. When Spider-man a youth casually throws around swear words like no fucks given there are no comments about it being juvenile yet a character who finds out someone broke into their home and says "what the fuck do you want" it's "edgy"
Yes, 'cos reasons' is pretty important for making distinctions. I mean, it's like arguing "Masturbation is a normal and healthy thing, lots of people do it" when being arrested for masturbating in public. The statements you are making are perfectly, factually true, but context separates a leisure activity from a crime. Why? Well, reasons.
BvS masturbates in public is basically what I'm saying.
But whatever. We've been back and forth on this a lot, and I think our opinions have had every chance to find common ground without success at this point. I just find it funny when I said you'd make a stronger point by trying to argue why a thing works for BvS independently and you're response is to draw more comparisons.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
Veelk, your consistent anti posts in this thread are as much of a slog to read as his pro posts, fyi. You make the masturbation analogy, but what you are doing amounts to public mental masturbation is all...
Franchuzas87
Member
I saw it again. Third time, second with the ultimate cut.
I just like it. It's not amazing. It's not there with the best superhero films like The Dark Knight, Days of Future Past, Winter Soldier or Civil War (for me anyway). But it's good fun in some places.
I like the impotence of Bruce Wayne while he watches the Superman vs Zod fight. I like the Batmobile chase. I like the senate bomb subplot (better handled in the UC). I like most of the Batman related scenes. I like Wonder Woman even if there is little screen time for her.
Yeah, Doomsday and the death of Superman should have been in another film, it doesn't have the impact it deserves. But I'm happy for the most part. It's serviceable as a second entry in this cinematic universe. Let's hope future films like Suicide Squad, Wonder Woman or Justice League manage to elevate it.
I just like it. It's not amazing. It's not there with the best superhero films like The Dark Knight, Days of Future Past, Winter Soldier or Civil War (for me anyway). But it's good fun in some places.
I like the impotence of Bruce Wayne while he watches the Superman vs Zod fight. I like the Batmobile chase. I like the senate bomb subplot (better handled in the UC). I like most of the Batman related scenes. I like Wonder Woman even if there is little screen time for her.
Yeah, Doomsday and the death of Superman should have been in another film, it doesn't have the impact it deserves. But I'm happy for the most part. It's serviceable as a second entry in this cinematic universe. Let's hope future films like Suicide Squad, Wonder Woman or Justice League manage to elevate it.
No BVS doesn't. I am on my phone but I'll find the podcast interview where Jonah Nolan says his Batman kills and you'd still say it doesn't count. Bale killed Ra's, he killed a shit tonne of league of assassins, he killed Harvey, killed Talia context matters and all and the only difference is people let their hate boner for Snyder over shadow their objective thinking.
I think this where a lot of the push back comes from. For this being the first cinematic pairing of Batman and Superman only being "serviceable" didn't cut it.
okay
I don't understand how this doesn't get through to you. My argument isn't that Baleman never kills. It's never been that. It's absurd to say because Baleman is directly or partially responsible for many deaths. I'm not going to repeat it for the thousandth time because I doubt you'll get it now if you hadn't gotten it before.
But atleast understand that my criticism to BvS isn't "Batman's never killed before!" but "Batman's killing in this manner as is presented is shitty" I mean, it's just weird. I could tell you flat out a hundred times that it's not an argument about other Batmen never having killed before, and you still go after that strawman.
Also, I don't really care what creators say about their work from the outside. What matters is whats presented within the work itself to me and that alone when looking at the movie, so even if I did think Baleman never killed, Jonah or even Christopher Nolan saying so wouldn't be what'd change my mind.
Joelstinton14
Member
Watched the Ultimate cut last night (didn't see the TC).
Well the film certainly has ambition. But it pretty much falls apart under EVERYTHING they tried to throw in there.
Hearing a lot of bad stuff about it, i was prepared to fear the worst, but there is actually quite a bit i enjoyed about the film but it hard to exactly pin down what it was. That's not to say it isn't a bad film, because it is. Has some major issues but it won me over a bit.
There are a lot of things to discuss and i think that is a good thing.
Eh, the film is so big i don;t know where to even begin. The frustrating thing is, there is actually a really good film in this, but what as been delivered isn;t quite it.
Script just needed stripping back a bit (or a lot), tighten up the main story, made Luthors play more clearer, as well as batman and superman own motives and i think that would have been enough. Make the film about that, rather than everything else. The film started out as a modern thriller ala Sicario/Zero Dark Thirty and i think it should have stayed in that frame set. Dispense of
the stuff altogether, but i guess they needed something to make
A generous 3/5. For ambition and to be fair it passed the time ok. A could have been. Or even a Should have been.
I didn't mind the Martha scene. I had one guy who told me that he thought the film referenced that Martha was both of them mums so i guess i was prepared for a real clanger. I didn't mind it because the film consistently had moments where the script directly didn't tell you what was happening, it expected you to put two and two together. I think it is also reasonable to assume Bruce couldn't figure out Supes identity.
Also Luthor again, i didn't mind. I thought he was fine. The trailer made him look awful, but his performance in general was rather toned down.
Well the film certainly has ambition. But it pretty much falls apart under EVERYTHING they tried to throw in there.
Hearing a lot of bad stuff about it, i was prepared to fear the worst, but there is actually quite a bit i enjoyed about the film but it hard to exactly pin down what it was. That's not to say it isn't a bad film, because it is. Has some major issues but it won me over a bit.
There are a lot of things to discuss and i think that is a good thing.
Eh, the film is so big i don;t know where to even begin. The frustrating thing is, there is actually a really good film in this, but what as been delivered isn;t quite it.
Script just needed stripping back a bit (or a lot), tighten up the main story, made Luthors play more clearer, as well as batman and superman own motives and i think that would have been enough. Make the film about that, rather than everything else. The film started out as a modern thriller ala Sicario/Zero Dark Thirty and i think it should have stayed in that frame set. Dispense of
Doomsday
Bruce come round.
A generous 3/5. For ambition and to be fair it passed the time ok. A could have been. Or even a Should have been.
I didn't mind the Martha scene. I had one guy who told me that he thought the film referenced that Martha was both of them mums so i guess i was prepared for a real clanger. I didn't mind it because the film consistently had moments where the script directly didn't tell you what was happening, it expected you to put two and two together. I think it is also reasonable to assume Bruce couldn't figure out Supes identity.
Also Luthor again, i didn't mind. I thought he was fine. The trailer made him look awful, but his performance in general was rather toned down.
Franchuzas87
Member
Probably. I'm a big fan of Batman films (both Burton and Nolan versions, didn't care for Schumacher), but not that much of Superman. I was hyped, but just middly. It wasn't the event of the decade or something. Still, I was a bit disappointed, because I really like other films from Snyder like 300 or Watchmen, and BvS didn't quite reach that level (for me). But with the ultimate cut and adjusted expectations I'm starting to get more fond of it.
However, I get it. See Superman and Batman in the same film was a big deal for a lot of people, so is easy to get annoyed at the result. Something similar happened with Avengers 2 not too long ago, and I also find that film entertaining (more than most stand-alone MCU entries).
He's 100% not really dead.
The problem they have is they can have his resurrection happen in the first 5 minutes of Justice League and thus telling the audience his death didn't matter and that he's basically invulnerable.
Or they spent half the movie wasting time on a justice league movie without Supes while they figure out his resurrection.
If they were gonna kill him I think they should have done it after the first Justice League movie. We're now gonna be left with a death either having no impact or one that will bog the film down.
You can use that argument against anything with known sequels. The problem wasn't doing Death of Superman, the problem was spending 10 minutes on it at the tail end of a 3 hour movie.
Sure. First and foremost the execution was bad. Spider-Man 2 did "Spider-Man no more" after only knowing that Spider for a film and a half and it was fucking great.
Since seeing BvS in theatres in February, I went on a bit of a Superman binge:
-Watched the entire Superman TAS
-Watched Superman 1978
-Read All Star Superman and Superman: Secret Identity
and it only reinforced what I already knew: Snyder's Superman SUCKS. There is so much awesome Superman material to pull from, and he instead opts to make Superman this unlikable asshole.
The world is against Superman in this film. He can't stop a bomb from going off and killing a bunch of people. Lex kidnaps Lois and Martha, and Batman wants to kick his ass all at once. HOW is he so unlikable? Why am I watching this movie wishing there was more Batman and Wonder Woman on the screen? I want to like Superman, but I can't.
I really look forward to Snyder's departure from the DCCU, which I have to imagine will be as soon as he finishes his contracted obligations, and we get a good Superman movie. That would be sweet.
I'm not entirely sure I'm following you here. Are you saying the events of BvS out of Superman's control make him unlikable or how he handled those situations?
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
If anything, the UC definitely makes Superman a more likeable, sympathetic character.
How he handled them. Just off the top of my head, WHERE IS SHEEEEE I WILL FUCKING KILL YOU WITH LASER EYES HULK SMASH came off so fucking weird and unlike the Superman character. This Superman completely lacks any kind of composure, which is something I always associated with the character. I know they're trying to portray him as this young whippersnapper who can't control his powers yet, which is why he fucking flies through buildings and accidentally blows a bunch of shit up and kills a million people... but I just don't buy it. Again, unlikable. Superman is unlikable!
But that's mostly the fault of the writing and Cavill's poor acting and severe lack of charisma.
There's more charm in these 5 seconds:
Than Cavill has had in two entire films.
How he handled them. Just off the top of my head, WHERE IS SHEEEEE I WILL FUCKING KILL YOU WITH LASER EYES HULK SMASH came off so fucking weird and unlike the Superman character. This Superman completely lacks any kind of composure, which is something I always associated with the character. I know they're trying to portray him as this young whippersnapper who can't control his powers yet, which is why he fucking flies through buildings and accidentally blows a bunch of shit up and kills a million people... but I just don't buy it. Again, unlikable. Superman is unlikable!
But that's mostly the fault of the writing and Cavill's poor acting and severe lack of charisma.
There's more charm in these 5 seconds:
Than Cavill has had in two entire films.
On the subject of Cavill I'm always a little off put with comments that he lacks charisma because he has loads of it. Maybe not Dwayne Johnson level but he's not deadpan or anything.
As for Superman, personally, him losing it over Martha seems in line. Even Reeve Supes lost it when Lois died and ignored his father's directive about interfering in human history to save her (which ultimately lacked any consequence).
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree then
The delivery of that "The bat is dead" line is the very definition of deadpan lol
I always thought Reeve losing it over Lois dying worked fine as the climax of that film. "All those powers, and I couldn't even save him" was a great, emotional scene. Now it's happened again.
Didn't feel nearly the same emotion with the WHERE IS SHE scene.
I don't mean within the movie. Him, haha. Sorry, should have been more clear. Lack of charisma in the movie is pretty much on Snyder.
My point is that Superman losing his composure isn't out of character. The execution, which is really where BvS seems to draw the most ire from, is going to determine one's feelings on it. Given the direction of Snyder's Superman his outburst was completely in line and I'd argue he maintained control better.
At a basic level Reeve Superman ignored his father's directive for a seflish reason. Lois was dead and Superman had no idea what the consequences of his actions would be but he did it anyway (even if nothing came of it he never questioned why interfering was forbidden). Cavill Superman at least managed to regain his composure.
I was running on 3hrs sleep z_z
It's still a really awkward F-bomb but I kinda love it for that reason
So I finally got around to watching The Ultimate Cut and after letting the dust settle this are my two cents:
Spoilers ahead.
Disclaimer: I did not see the TC and I avoided spoilers and trailers since the posters the SDCC in 2014 leaked.
This could have easily been two different movies. One ending with the "Do you bleed? You will" or even with supes going away. This movie should have been called Superman: Fallen God/Hero. It focus more on Supes conflicts between his powes, his human self (both emotionally and in the work place), and seeing and pursuing a Vigilante (which in many ways the movie paints Superman to be). This movie sets the stage for:
Batman V Sperman, in which the focus shifts aggresively. The main character is now Batman and his fears, demons, and confrontation with the man of steel.
I think after Man of Steel WB didn't want to take the chance to risk a flop, so including Batman from the get go (both in the title and the start fo the film) would ensure at least better numbers in the box office.
I liked the movie but the strugles between the two hypothetical movies I mentioned above is apparent. My wife liked it and peaked her interest on litle tidbits of the DC universe (she doesn't read comics and can barely mention superheroes other than the main cast of the MCU, Batman and Superman).
As for the Martha line, I liked it. Batman is presented as a broken man. He has has gone over the edge, he kills (which he has done in comics, and movies,so no surprise here), he brands people, he even lies to Alfred. Sometimes something so miniscule as a name out of place can be both the trigger for good and bad choices. Here it brings him back to sanity (or whatever we call batman normal status).
As for him using guns, he has even from the beggining, or are we all fogetting the golden age, The Dark Kingt Returns? He uses them sporadically, but he uses them.
I liked the Superman exploration of the dicotomy between being a human and an all powerfull being and what that generates on others (ejem, Dr Manhatan rings any bells?). I think it makes him a more complex character rather than a goodie two shoes that always picks between being good and being perfect. In this case he has to learn that wether good or bad there will always be repercusions, actions, emotions and fears of others which you can't control.
I loved Lex. He's not bad per se, just a little off and pissed at everything because his dad abused him (wether it was emotionally, physical o sexual is unclear). The actor was by far the best performance in the film. The scene when the Senator refuses to bring his materials in his house is tense as it can be, his microexpresions, gestures, everthing he does gives you an unnerving feeling. That is sublime.
The weakest link is Lois, but the again she is only a plot device (as she has always been) to explain why Superman didn't defeat his foes in one hit. Also the inclusion of Martha as this plot device is a little weird. I was there obviously to justify the Martha line. But I have to say, she is far better than in MoS.
On a side note, the batman fight scenes where awsome. Doomsday battle? Not so much, it felt a lot like General Zod V.2.
Sorry if its a little long or I have spelling mistakes. I'm on mobile. I tried to avoid referencing spoilers directly, should I tag them?
Also, after seeing the posters leaked from the SDCC I hoped to see more of the JL. Aquaman in particular...
Spoilers ahead.
Disclaimer: I did not see the TC and I avoided spoilers and trailers since the posters the SDCC in 2014 leaked.
This could have easily been two different movies. One ending with the "Do you bleed? You will" or even with supes going away. This movie should have been called Superman: Fallen God/Hero. It focus more on Supes conflicts between his powes, his human self (both emotionally and in the work place), and seeing and pursuing a Vigilante (which in many ways the movie paints Superman to be). This movie sets the stage for:
Batman V Sperman, in which the focus shifts aggresively. The main character is now Batman and his fears, demons, and confrontation with the man of steel.
I think after Man of Steel WB didn't want to take the chance to risk a flop, so including Batman from the get go (both in the title and the start fo the film) would ensure at least better numbers in the box office.
I liked the movie but the strugles between the two hypothetical movies I mentioned above is apparent. My wife liked it and peaked her interest on litle tidbits of the DC universe (she doesn't read comics and can barely mention superheroes other than the main cast of the MCU, Batman and Superman).
As for the Martha line, I liked it. Batman is presented as a broken man. He has has gone over the edge, he kills (which he has done in comics, and movies,so no surprise here), he brands people, he even lies to Alfred. Sometimes something so miniscule as a name out of place can be both the trigger for good and bad choices. Here it brings him back to sanity (or whatever we call batman normal status).
As for him using guns, he has even from the beggining, or are we all fogetting the golden age, The Dark Kingt Returns? He uses them sporadically, but he uses them.
I liked the Superman exploration of the dicotomy between being a human and an all powerfull being and what that generates on others (ejem, Dr Manhatan rings any bells?). I think it makes him a more complex character rather than a goodie two shoes that always picks between being good and being perfect. In this case he has to learn that wether good or bad there will always be repercusions, actions, emotions and fears of others which you can't control.
I loved Lex. He's not bad per se, just a little off and pissed at everything because his dad abused him (wether it was emotionally, physical o sexual is unclear). The actor was by far the best performance in the film. The scene when the Senator refuses to bring his materials in his house is tense as it can be, his microexpresions, gestures, everthing he does gives you an unnerving feeling. That is sublime.
The weakest link is Lois, but the again she is only a plot device (as she has always been) to explain why Superman didn't defeat his foes in one hit. Also the inclusion of Martha as this plot device is a little weird. I was there obviously to justify the Martha line. But I have to say, she is far better than in MoS.
On a side note, the batman fight scenes where awsome. Doomsday battle? Not so much, it felt a lot like General Zod V.2.
Sorry if its a little long or I have spelling mistakes. I'm on mobile. I tried to avoid referencing spoilers directly, should I tag them?
Also, after seeing the posters leaked from the SDCC I hoped to see more of the JL. Aquaman in particular...
ohhhhh lol. yeah from what I can tell from interviews and such cavill himself seems like a cool, likeable dude. I definitely blame the direction he's given, first and foremost.