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[TacticalFox88]

Not giving Superman an option to deal with Zod in a non-lethal way is a sign of bad writing, nothing more nothing less.

....

A non-lethal way?

What?

WHAT?

There is literally, LITERALLY, no prison on Earth that can hold Zod. Kryptonians shrugged off weapons from an A-10 and didn't even get so much as a paper cut. Zod and Supes going at it destroyed Metropolis.

And you think Supes can take him down using non-lethal means?

 

[unholyrevenger72]

....

A non-lethal way?

What?

WHAT?

There is literally, LITERALLY, no prison on Earth that can hold Zod. Kryptonians shrugged off weapons from an A-10 and didn't even get so much as a paper cut. Zod and Supes going at it destroyed Metropolis.

And you think Supes can take him down using non-lethal means?

Nah he wanted the boring anti-climactic ending where Zod doesn't go after the Scout Ship and stays on the black Zero to get sucked into the Phantom Zone with all the other Kryptonians

 

[JdFoX187]

Not giving Superman an option to deal with Zod in a non-lethal way is a sign of bad writing, nothing more nothing less.

Not really. The script had its issues and there should have been something more to show Clark's feelings of remorse after killing him beyond that scream and then cutting away to the light hearted exchange with the general. Plus this gives Clark a foundation for his no kill rule beyond just being a boy scout.

 

[.GqueB.]

Oh a Man of Steel thread. It's been a while. Seems many of you played the long game pretending this was a thread about Batman v. Superman.

Can't believe I fell for this :/

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

yeah, although i found letting his dead die and passing judgement on an entire civilization to be much more egregious issues. I probably wouldn't be so irritated by it all if they hadn't gone on and on about him leading us into the light and and aspiring to be greater then solving the conflict in the same violent, selfish manner that we've been doing for centuries anyway.

he was raised on Earth. he's going to solve things like an Earthling would.

Not giving Superman an option to deal with Zod in a non-lethal way is a sign of bad writing, nothing more nothing less.

what exactly could he do?

Not really. The script had its issues and there should have been something more to show Clark's feelings of remorse after killing him beyond that scream and then cutting away to the light hearted exchange with the general. Plus this gives Clark a foundation for his no kill rule beyond just being a boy scout.

dropping a drone a foot away from the general's car and then telling him he's not under the military's control a "light hearted" exchange? LOL.

Oh a Man of Steel thread. It's been a while. Seems many of you played the long game pretending this was a thread about Batman v. Superman.

Can't believe I fell for this :/

we got a respite. it was nice while it lasted.

 

[Mariolee]

SPOILERS

Spoiler

"I won't snap your neck, I'm going to take you to prison," an on-the-nose response to criticisms of the first movie. Of course Superman later loses his cool and threatens to break the bad guy's back, so he hasn't quite internalized everything yet.

What terrible dialogue. I really hope Faraci didn't post it word for word. This is Goyer levels of bad.

 

[Schweinehund]

Only feasible way I could have seen superman stopping zodd from the position he was in is by suddenly developing frost breath. Hoping they're going to use that in BvS.

 

[kunonabi]

I mean I know he was having this problem killing Zod.. But he wasn't heart broken for the thousands in the city because of him?

And another thing.. Why are people so mad about this? Superman fucking killed Zod in Superman 2. Why is it a problem now?

Who says I didn't have a problem with it then? Just because I was a fan of Reeve's performance doesn't mean I always liked how they wrote the character, especially in Superman II.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

Who says I didn't have a problem with it then? Just because I was a fan of Reeve's performance doesn't mean I always liked how they wrote the character, especially in Superman II.

so you just have a problem with Superman killing?

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

Wait are people seriously mad at MoS because he killed Zod at the end?

People complained when Burton Batman killed
People complain when Batman doesn't kill
People complain about Superman killing Zod
...

 

[hammertomb]

SPOILERS



What terrible dialogue. I really hope Faraci didn't post it word for word. This is Goyer levels of bad.

Depends on how its delivered.

 

[TheVampire]

....

A non-lethal way?

What?

WHAT?

There is literally, LITERALLY, no prison on Earth that can hold Zod. Kryptonians shrugged off weapons from an A-10 and didn't even get so much as a paper cut. Zod and Supes going at it destroyed Metropolis.

And you think Supes can take him down using non-lethal means?

Even after their fight Zod and Superman still didn't have any cuts and bruises.
It looked like they could have gone on fighting like that for another 10 hours.

 

[broncobuster]

People complained when Burton Batman killed
People complain when Batman doesn't kill
People complain about Superman killing Zod
...

Spider-Man's villains kill themselves. Everybody wins.

 

[Discotheque]

It's mr chud Devin faraci fuck that dude. I refuse to believe his rumors because the second you give him some credibility then the terrorists win!

 

[OneEyedKing]

What terrible dialogue. I really hope Faraci didn't post it word for word. This is Goyer levels of bad.

Knowing that Faraci seems to want this movie to fail and has to adopt a smug and snarky tone every time he writes about it, it wouldn't surprise me if he wasn't quoting dialogue verbatim just to make it sound stupid. Assuming his rumors are even right to begin with.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

Spider-Man's villains kill themselves. Everybody wins.

LOL

 

[kunonabi]

so you just have a problem with Superman killing?

Usually, yes. But if you are going to do it than it should be properly built up and with consequences.. As I say him resorting to it in his first time out just sets a bad precedent and flies in the face of everything the movie was supposedly saying about the character. It's the context in MoS that bothers me as it seems like they really only did it for shock value.

 

[unholyrevenger72]

Usually, yes. But if you are going to do it than it should be properly built up and with consequences.. As I say him resorting to it in his first time out just sets a bad precedent and flies in the face of everything the movie was supposedly saying about the character.

How was it improperly built up? as for the consequences we'll probably see them in BvS. As for killing being contradictory to what he is suppose to be, inspirational; how is only taking a life when all of humanity is at stake something not to aspire to?

 

[Sibersk Esto]

I mean, I don't recall Clark having any explicit rule against killing in mos. Considering the contractual nature of most movie stars I doubt this will be the last time he kills someone on screen. Then Henry cavill can scream or something

 

[unholyrevenger72]

I mean, I don't recall Clark having any explicit rule against killing in mos. Considering the contractual nature of most movie stars I doubt this will be the last time he kills someone on screen. Then Henry cavill can scream or something

He'll reach his final form and simply be God, and can deus ex machina everything into submission thus never having to kill

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Superman will continue his transformation into batman by "not saving" most film antagonists

 

[unholyrevenger72]

Superman will continue his transformation into batman by "not saving" most film antagonists

Can't wait for composite Superman

 

[Compbros]

I think Superman vs Luthor will go like this.

Supes, pick Lex up by the throat

Lex "Go ahead kill me, just like Zod, show the world who you really are"

Supes drops Lex to ground and begins laughing hysterically

Lex "What are you doing? What's so funny? Stop Laughing at me!"

Supes "Sorry, it's just that you honestly believe you're as dangerous as Zod, and that i'd have to stoop to killing you in order to save humanity. That's just too funny".

Supes continues to laugh hystrically. Enraged, Lex punches Supes, shattering his hand and succeeds in making Supes laugh harder.

That's new 52 stuff, that Supes is a dick. I'd much rather it go like Max Landis' vision of the Doomsday fight.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RWMc-EdDRY (39:05)

 

[Ermac]

Well, guess I'm not seeing Hobbit in theaters. Thanks for saving me 20 bucks WB.

 

[DaveH]

Ramblings....

I think one reconciliation of the dialogue is if the "big bad" in question is actually

Spoiler

Batman, whose goal is to push Superman's buttons and test the limits of the alien's patience. The article casts Batman as "cautious" not condemning. Someone with Batman's inclinations would justifiably be concerned that Superman's heroism could be tested and cracked. Iron-willed Batman has probably come right up to that edge many times himself in his career, say nothing of a country bumpkin with god-like powers.

So what if Batman at the end of his career and usefulness to humanity, sets out for one last death-wish of a mission... to see if this Superman is the genuine article or just an alien apocalypse and tyrant waiting to happen. Batman makes it his mission, "with prep-time", to annoy the Man of Steel to the breaking point, to see if Superman will or could, kill again and slide down that slippery slope towards despotism.

Batman is trying to get Superman to "kill" him.

In that context, Superman threatening to break Batman's back after being pushed to the brink by Batman (tricking him into thinking Lois is dead, for example) is plausible, excusable, and a nod to the comics. Superman with his hands wrapped around Batman's throat wanting to, but not, killing Batman would be a crazy inversion of The Dark Knight Returns, while preserving both characters.

"Clark…in all the years to come…in your most private moments…I want you to remember…your hand…at my throat…I want…you to remember…the one man who beat you."

Except... like The Dark Knight Returns, he doesn't beat him because Superman doesn't kill Batman. Superman passes the test... hopefully forgives Batman for his insane methods... and they move on to the next threat.

[Think about it... if Batman is an antagonist, Lex Luthor is a villain, and Doomsday is allegedly in this film... is there room for another "big bad" unless it is one of these three?]

 

[DaveH]

...what I really dont understand is how kryptonians died of anything when they got to earth...but I think I saw some dead bodies in the arctic ship that colonists used across the galaxy...

They died before arriving on Earth. This can be used as an explanation for why they didn't colonize Earth. Or you can use a Prime Directive like explanation given their reticence to execute criminals (Zod committed high treason and still isn't facing an explicit death penalty, only a de facto one). Or you can use the Prequel comic. It's ultimately immaterial.

Ultimately they never reasonably explained why Zod knowing how fragile the codex was and the state of the future of krypton was....ignored that he was nigh unstoppable on earth as is...along with all his fellow kryptonians...many of which were warrior class. . . .

Why am i risking all that when I can do the codex and rebirth after i've subjected the planet??

Don't forget that General Zod was convicted and sentenced for attempting a coup... that is, betraying, rebelling, and being a traitor to the government he serves.

Those who are traitors have the reasonable tendency to fear betrayal themselves and worry about traitors in their midst.

This is reinforced by the fact Zod only trusted a total of two Kryptonians and himself to go to Earth and gain access to super powers. If Zod absolutely trusted his crew, there's no reason he couldn't have drop-shipped them all around the planet to enforce his plan.

It's clear that Zod doesn't have that absolute trust of his crew. And for good reason. If someone in a lesser caste or rank like, say, Jax-Ur were to taste that god-like Superman-level power... do you see these criminals cooperating with Zod and giving that up out of mere loyalty so that they can serve under his rule?

In a powerless society, Zod's military caste and might can still control things by force. In a powered society, Zod is just another equal. Zod's whole problem with the Council was that they didn't follow his eugenic ideals, so I doubt he wants to give up that control when forming a new Krypton.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Ramblings....

I think one reconciliation of the dialogue is if the "big bad" in question is actually

Spoiler

Batman, whose goal is to push Superman's buttons and test the limits of the alien's patience. The article casts Batman as "cautious" not condemning. Someone with Batman's inclinations would justifiably be concerned that Superman's heroism could be tested and cracked. Iron-willed Batman has probably come right up to that edge many times himself in his career, say nothing of a country bumpkin with god-like powers.

So what if Batman at the end of his career and usefulness to humanity, sets out for one last death-wish of a mission... to see if this Superman is the genuine article or just an alien apocalypse and tyrant waiting to happen. Batman makes it his mission, "with prep-time", to annoy the Man of Steel to the breaking point, to see if Superman will or could, kill again and slide down that slippery slope towards despotism.

Batman is trying to get Superman to "kill" him.

In that context, Superman threatening to break Batman's back after being pushed to the brink by Batman (tricking him into thinking Lois is dead, for example) is plausible, excusable, and a nod to the comics. Superman with his hands wrapped around Batman's throat wanting to, but not, killing Batman would be a crazy inversion of The Dark Knight Returns, while preserving both characters.

"Clark…in all the years to come…in your most private moments…I want you to remember…your hand…at my throat…I want…you to remember…the one man who beat you."

Except... like The Dark Knight Returns, he doesn't beat him because Superman doesn't kill Batman. Superman passes the test... hopefully forgives Batman for his insane methods... and they move on to the next threat.

[Think about it... if Batman is an antagonist, Lex Luthor is a villain, and Doomsday is allegedly in this film... is there room for another "big bad" unless it is one of these three?]

This is pretty much how they met for the first time during the Byrne run. Although your suggestion seems to make it unlikely they would ever really get along

 

[spoonztt]

Is the teaser trailer coming with The Hobbit?

 

[guek]

You know what's a clear indication of poor writing? When you have to write paragraphs upon paragraphs to try and fill plot holes with extraneous assumptions.

Of all the dumb shit in MoS, the bit of writing that pisses me off the most is that they had the audacity to give Zod the line "either you die or I do" and then proceed to have Superman prove him right minutes later. Because Superman giving in to extreme violence to prove the villain correct is so inspirational.

 

[DaveH]

You know what's a clear indication of poor writing?

I think it's an indication of people who fail to exercise basic deduction.

The answers are actually quite short: "That's silly if you just thought about it."

The problem is people didn't think about it. Naturally, having to think for someone is going to be a more lengthy response than a thoughtless critique. Much like yours. "If you just thought about it" you'd realize why explanation is always longer.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

You know what's a clear indication of poor writing? When you have to write paragraphs upon paragraphs to try and fill plot holes with extraneous assumptions.

Of all the dumb shit in MoS, the bit of writing that pisses me off the most is that they had the audacity to give Zod the line "either you die or I do" and then proceed to have Superman prove him right minutes later. Because Superman giving in to extreme violence to prove the villain correct is so inspirational.

i believe the line was "There's only one way this ends, Kal. Either you die, or I do."

that's two ways

 

[guek]

I think it's an indication of people who fail to exercise basic deduction.

The answers are actually quite short: "That's silly if you just thought about it."

The problem is people didn't think about it. Naturally, having to think for someone is going to be a more lengthy response than a thoughtless critique. Much like yours. "If you just thought about it" you'd realize why explanation is always longer.

Your explanation is nothing more than leaps in logic designed to arrive at a predetermined conclusion. But far be it from me to keep you from thinking you're the smartest guy in the room.

 

[DaveH]

i believe the line was "There's only one way this ends, Kal. Either you die, or I do."

that's two ways

The line could have been rewritten to avoid this, but it's not untrue depending on what kind of "or" is being used. "Or" is actually quite ambiguous, which is why in programming we have XOR, EOR, EXOR, OR (and prefixes like J) to determine precisely what logical operation is being raised.

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

Is the teaser trailer coming with The Hobbit?

No. Showings for Hobbit started Tuesday evening (midnight showings have turned into 7:30, 8, and 10PM showings).

 

[Sibersk Esto]

The line could have been rewritten to avoid this, but it's not untrue depending on what kind of "or" is being used. "Or" is actually quite ambiguous, which is why in programming we have XOR, EOR, EXOR, OR (and prefixes like J) to determine precisely what logical operation is being raised.

David Goyer: Cunning linguist

 

[DaveH]

Your explanation is nothing more than leaps in logic designed to arrive at a predetermined conclusion. But far be it from me to keep you from thinking you're the smartest guy in the room.

Better than being bitter without basic deduction.

How are plot hole allegations any different and not "leaps in logic designed to arrive at a predetermined conclusion?"

The allegation that Mars can be terraform is a leap in logic that because Earth can be, any planet can be, despite that being intuitively untrue (there's a reason such protest grasps at Mars and not a gas giant), simply because they want to assert an alleged hole.

The allegation that Zod should have fielded all the Kryptonians is a leap in logic that Phantom Zone criminals would all be absolutely loyal to and follow Zod's plan after tasting god-like power. Considering even Zod wasn't loyal to the Council, raising the issue is purely designed to arrive at an alleged hole.

Either way, assumptions are being made, but one set is consistent with the behavior we see on screen and the other isn't.

Well, as expected, you didn't think things through again.

 

[guek]

Lol. Funny.

 

[DaveH]

Lol. Funny.

Insightless contribution.

This is pretty much how they met for the first time during the Byrne run. Although your suggestion seems to make it unlikely they would ever really get along

If it's the second act and the third act is fighting together that could go a long way towards smoothing things. It's a fairly common film structure for two sides to be adversarial, a common enemy to be revealed, and then the two joining forces and bonding.

 

[unholyrevenger72]

Of all the dumb shit in MoS, the bit of writing that pisses me off the most is that they had the audacity to give Zod the line "either you die or I do" and then proceed to have Superman prove him right minutes later. Because Superman giving in to extreme violence to prove the villain correct is so inspirational.

Zod's Statement is a self fulfilling prophecy, and no matter the outcome, short of Deus ex machina, Zod's statement would come to pass.

 

[DonasaurusRex]

They died before arriving on Earth. This can be used as an explanation for why they didn't colonize Earth. Or you can use a Prime Directive like explanation given their reticence to execute criminals (Zod committed high treason and still isn't facing an explicit death penalty, only a de facto one). Or you can use the Prequel comic. It's ultimately immaterial.

Don't forget that General Zod was convicted and sentenced for attempting a coup... that is, betraying, rebelling, and being a traitor to the government he serves.

Those who are traitors have the reasonable tendency to fear betrayal themselves and worry about traitors in their midst.

This is reinforced by the fact Zod only trusted a total of two Kryptonians and himself to go to Earth and gain access to super powers. If Zod absolutely trusted his crew, there's no reason he couldn't have drop-shipped them all around the planet to enforce his plan.

It's clear that Zod doesn't have that absolute trust of his crew. And for good reason. If someone in a lesser caste or rank like, say, Jax-Ur were to taste that god-like Superman-level power... do you see these criminals cooperating with Zod and giving that up out of mere loyalty so that they can serve under his rule?

In a powerless society, Zod's military caste and might can still control things by force. In a powered society, Zod is just another equal. Zod's whole problem with the Council was that they didn't follow his eugenic ideals, so I doubt he wants to give up that control when forming a new Krypton.

Do you even believe that? None of that explains the stupid ass decisions Zod made to achieve his goal. You do not EVER forfeit immunity from retaliation and superior force of arms for any of that . The situation was simply Zod had a goal, he could not be stopped, the only thing fragile about his plane was his equipment. Even the codex was safe inside of superman. He then chose to start a world engine that wold make his band of 20 - 30 vulnerable before he stopped Kal El who had the power to stop the engine. He then decided to fly the ship from the artic safely to space because you know, last one left? No he flew it to Metropolis? Near Kal El who openly opposes you? He still had the advantage even with the world engine busted. Way too much fuck up in one sequence.

Movie was good though.

 

[TacticalFox88]

Dave-H, you need to watch the movie again.

There were far more Kryptonians on Earth than Just Zod, Faora, and Nam-Ek. Yes, they were in the background, but it's not to say that Zod didn't "trust" them with powers.

That's idiotic considering that Kryptonians gain power with or without Zod's consent, considering their biology.

 

[BLACKLAC]

Where in the film would you pick up Zod not trusting the Kryptonians he arrived with...?

 

[unholyrevenger72]

Do you even believe that? None of that explains the stupid ass decisions Zod made to achieve his goal. You do not EVER forfeit immunity from retaliation and superior force of arms for any of that . The situation was simply Zod had a goal, he could not be stopped, the only thing fragile about his plane was his equipment. Even the codex was safe inside of superman. He then chose to start a world engine that wold make his band of 20 - 30 vulnerable before he stopped Kal El who had the power to stop the engine. He then decided to fly the ship from the artic safely to space because you know, last one left? No he flew it to Metropolis? Near Kal El who openly opposes you? He still had the advantage even with the world engine busted. Way too much fuck up in one sequence.

Movie was good though.

They wouldn't be completely vulnerable though, Yellow Sun + Kryptonian atmosphere = Super Strength, Speed & Invulnerability. Zod started the world engine so they would not have to deal with learning to cope with their super senses.

 

[IconGrist]

Zod explicitly states he wants to terraform so any new Kryptonian children created from the Codex did not have to endure the physical pain from Earth's natural atmosphere. Martha mentioned Clark being constantly sick as a child. As far as we know, given what little information there is, Clark surviving the process of adapting as a child could have been nothing but luck.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

Usually, yes. But if you are going to do it than it should be properly built up and with consequences.. As I say him resorting to it in his first time out just sets a bad precedent and flies in the face of everything the movie was supposedly saying about the character. It's the context in MoS that bothers me as it seems like they really only did it for shock value.

one day he will inspire, today was not that day. today (meaning the events of MoS) he learned about making tough choices. and learning how to trust. and he learned that the world is not black and white.

You know what's a clear indication of poor writing? When you have to write paragraphs upon paragraphs to try and fill plot holes with extraneous assumptions.

Of all the dumb shit in MoS, the bit of writing that pisses me off the most is that they had the audacity to give Zod the line "either you die or I do" and then proceed to have Superman prove him right minutes later. Because Superman giving in to extreme violence to prove the villain correct is so inspirational.

my answer above covers this a bit but it's safe to say that Superman had no choice. Zod was not going to let him make the easy choice. and is this the new narrative now to nitpick about? that the movie Superman didn't inspire you?

 

[bryanee]

Zod explicitly states he wants to terraform so any new Kryptonian children created from the Codex did not have to endure the physical pain from Earth's natural atmosphere. Martha mentioned Clark being constantly sick as a child. As far as we know, given what little information there is, Clark surviving the process of adapting as a child could have been nothing but luck.

I was about to post this.

In the novel Zod also says "I want to breathe the air of Krypton again. I want to feel the solid weight of our world beneath my feet." They should of had something like that in the movie as well.

 

[guek]

one day

my answer above covers this a bit but it's safe to say that Superman had no choice. Zod was not going to let him make the easy choice. and is this the new narrative now to nitpick about? that the movie Superman didn't inspire you?

Superman isn't a real person. The movie is a work of fiction, and if any insurmountable obstacles do happen to exist, it's a product of the writing, not some kind of absurd inevitability. The movie also never explicitly makes it clear there are no alternate means of stopping Zod. You're concluding that because that's the way the movie ended and since no alternative was presented, no alternatives exist. If the ultimate point they were trying to make was that superman had no choice but to kill, I think they did so very poorly. Such a conclusion is also not what I want from a superman movie, but that's my own subjective taste talking. You are of course free to disagree, just like I disagree he made the "hard" choice. Killing Zod himself was the easy way out, both for the plot and for Clark. Consider how you and others constantly say he had no choice. If that's true, how could it possibly be the difficult one? Superheroes, particularly Superman, are about defying the odds and doing the impossible. Succumbing to the odds may be more "realistic" and if that's what you wanted, I'm glad you enjoyed it, but I wasn't fond of that particular direction.

 

[IconGrist]

Consider how you and others constantly say he had no choice. If that's true, how could it possibly be the difficult one?

Umm... because he didn't want to kill? Just because it was his only choice doesn't mean it wasn't a hard one. I can understand you dislike what happened but that doesn't mean why it happened was actually bad.

 

[guek]

Umm... because he didn't want to kill? Just because it was his only choice doesn't mean it wasn't a hard one. I can understand you dislike what happened but that doesn't mean why it happened was actually bad.

A choice that is inevitable is an absence of choice. It's also a product of the writing, which I found poor. A lack of follow up on the trauma of taking a life was disappointing, and though it looks to be addressed in bvs, that doesn't erase the disappointment I had with MoS.

There's also the fact that the scene in question poorly conveyed an impossible decision. You can argue he has no choice but to put Zod down for good, but in that specific scene, there were plenty of ways to save that particular family without snapping his neck.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

you guys seem pretty worked up about the whole death thing. need some levity