Being bad at fighting games is the single most frustrating thing in my gaming history
- Thread starter Dr_Boris_Goltz
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ShinMaruku
Member
Boy is Hamad mad at SF4 come watch his stream and be enlightend. He said this game has no tools to teach.
You can do both Calamity Synphony and the other ultra scary command throw just by rotating the stick twice away from your opponent iirc and then pressing the corresponding buttons dating back to SC2 at least. Good luck hitting any human player that way though lol
Karsticles
Member
I bet all the folks claiming you need inborn talent to excel at fighting games would get stomped by Brolylegs:
Interview w/ Broly, Disabled Super Street Fighter : https://youtu.be/83nSodg-HTU
Interview w/ Broly, Disabled Super Street Fighter : https://youtu.be/83nSodg-HTU
Gumption to
*bleep bloop*
Scientific Progress Goes *"Hadoken!"*
And yet you somehow managed to make the most worthless post in this thread.
Grats on the talent.
*bleep bloop*
Scientific Progress Goes *"Hadoken!"*
And yet you somehow managed to make the most worthless post in this thread.
Grats on the talent.
I gave up being good at fighting games a long time ago. I suck at them, but enjoy messing around with friends. I own all of the big ones (MvC, DoA, SF, etc.) yet I suck so bad at them. Gave up playing online a long time ago because it wasn't fun getting thrashed constantly. It's still cool to learn a couple of moves and pull them off when I want to, but that's about the extent of it for me. There are some folks who are just simply awesome at these games. Unfortunately, that isn't me. I've come to accept that.
same here! most fighters are a bit much for me.
I like smash enough that I can at least know what every character is capable of to a reasonable degree, and just adjust for people's playstyle.
Sometimes I feel like half of street fighter or mortal kombat (for me) is fighting the game, on top of out thinking your opponent. I'm even okay at those games in a super casual situation, I get the controls a casual amount, but the combos for each character, how to *do* the combos, managing super meters (im awful at those) and then actually fighting!
Im also had at "real" racing games, Mario kart being the one I'm best at. Ohwell
OP, and I'm sure this has been mentioned a thousand times already, but learning fundamentals is way more useful than trying to memorize combos that are most likely ineffective or highly situational. Yeah, we all want to do long fancy combos but that's jumping into the deep end.
Learning fundamentals such as when to block or when to punish goes so much further, and the way you do this is by ACTIVELY putting effort into improving and breaking down the habits that make you shitty. You pushed a button and the dude caught you with a higher priority move? Stop mashing (and I repeat, stop mashing). Blocked so long that you eventually got caught? Try taking a risk. Risk doesn't work out? Take a different risk. If you can notice a pattern in your play or you use a go-to game plan over and over, your opponent will inevitably figure it out, and staying steps ahead of your opponent and being unpredictable are things you need to win.
Learning fundamentals such as when to block or when to punish goes so much further, and the way you do this is by ACTIVELY putting effort into improving and breaking down the habits that make you shitty. You pushed a button and the dude caught you with a higher priority move? Stop mashing (and I repeat, stop mashing). Blocked so long that you eventually got caught? Try taking a risk. Risk doesn't work out? Take a different risk. If you can notice a pattern in your play or you use a go-to game plan over and over, your opponent will inevitably figure it out, and staying steps ahead of your opponent and being unpredictable are things you need to win.
Laws00
Member
I've been playing fighting games wrong since 1991.
It wasn't until SF4AE2012 that I fully understood how to play online against people.
i didnt understand footies stuff. oh i played people online beat them but i didnt understand
for some reason sfa3 was my best game. My thought pattern as teen was a lot different then when I was in mid to late 20s.
wish i stuff have drive and youthfulness but with the understanding of concepts and fundamentals that i have now to apply in games.
It wasn't until SF4AE2012 that I fully understood how to play online against people.
i didnt understand footies stuff. oh i played people online beat them but i didnt understand
for some reason sfa3 was my best game. My thought pattern as teen was a lot different then when I was in mid to late 20s.
wish i stuff have drive and youthfulness but with the understanding of concepts and fundamentals that i have now to apply in games.
That feel OP, I just got Street Fighter 3 online last week and I'm trying to get good, but its hard
Feels amazing when you have a good round though, online I'm struggling to find matches, and when I do I'm getting blitzed
I decided to main Chun-Li so i've only been using her and I'm making slow progress I think
In the arcade mode I've only managed to get 4 or 5 fighters in, and my best ever score is a C
Feels amazing when you have a good round though, online I'm struggling to find matches, and when I do I'm getting blitzed
I decided to main Chun-Li so i've only been using her and I'm making slow progress I think
In the arcade mode I've only managed to get 4 or 5 fighters in, and my best ever score is a C
Strictly speaking Smash here since it's the one I play the most. Defence is the one I mess up too much. I'm slowly getting better but I still keep messing up my timing with air dodges and shielding.
ShinMaruku
Member
Inborn talent can be mental as well.
Look at Stephen Hawking. Can you do what he does?
The only inborn talent that you need to compete at the highest level of fighting games (which kind of makes this a moot point in regards to just being good at the genre) is the ability to exploit mindgames. This is why the mental process of something like high level Poker can easily be adapted for fighting games. The thing is, more and more fighting games are designed to be less about in depth mind games, except at the absolute highest level, so this is something that you hardly even need to concern yourself with if you're just trying to learn them at a competent level.
If you are able to watch a match and see how exactly one person read his/her opponent and executed on that read without needing it explained to you, then the only thing holding you back from being good, or even great at the game is your ability to execute those tactics yourself, which comes with practice.
If you are able to watch a match and see how exactly one person read his/her opponent and executed on that read without needing it explained to you, then the only thing holding you back from being good, or even great at the game is your ability to execute those tactics yourself, which comes with practice.
Im average at fighting games, but I know how to get good, I'm just lazy lol. My first game was tekken 1, and I have been playing fighting games my whole life. I was the guy who would win around the neighborhood but would get destroyed online. I was definitely a combo practicer and didnt realize I was playing them wrong until Tag 2. Where I improved a TON. I dont look at hardcore forums for advice, But here is how I think you get good
go to practice mode
1. Learn to move. Something I think is extremely over looked. Know your characters forward and backward walk speed, their forward and backwards dash speed and range. know their forward and backwards jumping range Learn any advanced moving techniques (korean backdashing in tekken, wave/plink dashing in marvel, etc)
2. Learn to block. Know when to block, high and low, have knowledge of over heads and lows. You should also know to break throws
3. Know normals, know the speed, damage, and range of every normal. Know how far each normal reaches. You have to be able to know what button to press without even thinking about it. Then set the cpu to block so then you can know which normals are "safe" (your character goes back to the neutral position before the blocking animation ends for the other character)
4.Know strings. In MKX strings are the little canned combos that every character has. (ie: x, square, o) know the range, damage, and speed of every string, so you know what string to do when the opponent is within a certain range. Then set the CPU to block to know which strings are safe. Switch between a stand block, and crouch block cpu. Know which string to start within a certian range AND which strings will hit a stand block and crouch block opponent within that range
5. Know specials. Learn every special move and be able to do it 10/10 times. Know the range and speed of every special. Then switch the CPU to stand and crouch block to know which specials are safe, or which range do they become safe. Do the same for EX specials and make sure you really know the difference between the regular and the EX version
6. Learn combos. After learning all of that then Learn combos. Have many combos for different situations. Make sure these combos are optimal damage or lead into a situation where you can "mix up" your opponent (the opponent has to make a choice about blocking and the wrong one can lead to more damage.) or reset them (return them to a neutral position where you can mix them up) Have combos for many positions on the screen and not where you have to be touching your opponent in the corner as these situations rarely happen in a real match. Have combos that may start with a jumping attack, air to air, overhead starting combos, etc
And finally the reason why I will never be more than "Average" at most fighting games
7. Learn steps 1-6 for every character in the game. You have to know exactly what options your opponent has at any time. Knowing what your opponent can do is just as important as knowing what your character can do. You will know which moves you can do at a given time based on what options your opponent has.
Yes any guy off the street can become the EVO champ its just that most people off the street wont do steps 1-7 and just want to do combos and go online as fast as they can. Me included
I just try to learn other characters by playing online, but not only are most people not the best online, you wont run into an equal share of all the characters
TL;DR practice
EDIT: oh yea and DONT try to get good by playing against the CPU. The cpu has input reads and sometimes has exploitable things that wouldnt happen to a real opponent. (umvc CPU NEVER blocked a raw foot dive)
go to practice mode
1. Learn to move. Something I think is extremely over looked. Know your characters forward and backward walk speed, their forward and backwards dash speed and range. know their forward and backwards jumping range Learn any advanced moving techniques (korean backdashing in tekken, wave/plink dashing in marvel, etc)
2. Learn to block. Know when to block, high and low, have knowledge of over heads and lows. You should also know to break throws
3. Know normals, know the speed, damage, and range of every normal. Know how far each normal reaches. You have to be able to know what button to press without even thinking about it. Then set the cpu to block so then you can know which normals are "safe" (your character goes back to the neutral position before the blocking animation ends for the other character)
4.Know strings. In MKX strings are the little canned combos that every character has. (ie: x, square, o) know the range, damage, and speed of every string, so you know what string to do when the opponent is within a certain range. Then set the CPU to block to know which strings are safe. Switch between a stand block, and crouch block cpu. Know which string to start within a certian range AND which strings will hit a stand block and crouch block opponent within that range
5. Know specials. Learn every special move and be able to do it 10/10 times. Know the range and speed of every special. Then switch the CPU to stand and crouch block to know which specials are safe, or which range do they become safe. Do the same for EX specials and make sure you really know the difference between the regular and the EX version
6. Learn combos. After learning all of that then Learn combos. Have many combos for different situations. Make sure these combos are optimal damage or lead into a situation where you can "mix up" your opponent (the opponent has to make a choice about blocking and the wrong one can lead to more damage.) or reset them (return them to a neutral position where you can mix them up) Have combos for many positions on the screen and not where you have to be touching your opponent in the corner as these situations rarely happen in a real match. Have combos that may start with a jumping attack, air to air, overhead starting combos, etc
And finally the reason why I will never be more than "Average" at most fighting games
7. Learn steps 1-6 for every character in the game. You have to know exactly what options your opponent has at any time. Knowing what your opponent can do is just as important as knowing what your character can do. You will know which moves you can do at a given time based on what options your opponent has.
Yes any guy off the street can become the EVO champ its just that most people off the street wont do steps 1-7 and just want to do combos and go online as fast as they can. Me included
I just try to learn other characters by playing online, but not only are most people not the best online, you wont run into an equal share of all the characters
TL;DR practice
EDIT: oh yea and DONT try to get good by playing against the CPU. The cpu has input reads and sometimes has exploitable things that wouldnt happen to a real opponent. (umvc CPU NEVER blocked a raw foot dive)
90% of my matches on MKX have been relatively lag free, and I dont have trouble doing most combos. I have a ps4, using a hardwired connection, what are you guys using
Aaron-Lagann
Banned
When I picked up Super Street Fighter 4 I couldn't beat the AI on medium. I then hopped online, got wrecked. Kept playing. Kept playing. Kept playing. Eventually I started winning and got good enough to play in tournaments and do pretty well.
It just takes a lot of time. Like, a LOT of time. You have to really want to get good at fighting games to get good at fighting games. If you don't enjoy the game even while losing, you're probably not the type of person who will get good at fighters.
It just takes a lot of time. Like, a LOT of time. You have to really want to get good at fighting games to get good at fighting games. If you don't enjoy the game even while losing, you're probably not the type of person who will get good at fighters.
ShinMaruku
Member
Most important piece of info right here in this topic.
Deified Data
Banned
I don't blame you. I'm still struggling with MKX and enjoying the process of getting incrementally better but the second it stopped being fun I'd stop playing. Frankly I can say right now that I don't have the time or the commitment to become competitive beyond the lower echelons in the genre, and I'm content with that.
Why?
I see nothing wrong with not wanting to jump in deeper into the genre when most of the replies in this thread are saying that you have to put in a ton of time to get good at the games. Not everyone is looking to spend a majority of their gaming time on just one genre/game.
Simply put, if anyone is looking to get exceptional at this genre, but are not looking to spend MMO like time in doing so, then either it isn't for them, or they need to readjust their expectations for it.
ShinMaruku
Member
Exactly. People need to know what makes people love fighting games is what keeps many away from them. That is fine.
Cookie Dough
Member
I really like fighting games, I've always enjoyed them, but I am so terrible at them and I just can't get good at them. I've tried and tried, I have no problems with any other game, but there's just something about how fighting games work that just aren't compatible with how I work.
Doesn't stop me enjoying them though. MKX has been good fun of late, especially against people as derpy at fighting games as I am.
Doesn't stop me enjoying them though. MKX has been good fun of late, especially against people as derpy at fighting games as I am.
It's not about inborn talent, it's about people just being bad at things.
Let's say I wanted to be a basketball player. I'm tall, have a great build, understand the game and been playing it since I was a kid. But I've got terrible depth perception, my coordination is abysmal, and I've got the aim of a 6 year old. There's nothing physically wrong with me, but my brain just isn't wired to handle those basic things at a level I need to, and I'm not going to be a good basketball player because of it.
And this stuff isn't just a "you're bad or you're good" thing. It's a sliding scale and everyone falls somewhere on it. Some people are going to end up under "there's no hope", and there's not much they can do about it.
Yeah, (IMO) the majority of people can practice until they improve or overcome their shortcomings, but there's a point where it's just not worth it. Ther'es quiting because you don't feel like it, and there's accepting the fact that to get good, you have to sacrifice your life
(for more time on the clock)
A better example than baskteball is art. A lot of people say they just can't draw, something I had the same stance on as you (and a lot of oher posters) do with fighting games. But then I realized that my first "serious" drawing in high school came out better than some kids who'd been at it for years, and that everyone on my mothers side is somehow naturally inclined to art, even though none of them ever try unless they have to.
All you generally need to do to draw or paint is move an object, but I'm not going to show someone a video of a paralysed guy painting an ultra-detailed picture of a city at a birds eye view with a brush in his mouth, and say "why can't you do that, all you have to do is pratice." Regardless of if they can, I'm an asshole for saying that. Even worse if I've been at it for years and even I'm not at that level.
Karsticles
Member
No, but I also don't study astrophysics. If I did, I could do what he does.
Stephen Hawking, if you have ever watched him talk about himself, has been open about not amounting to much when he was young. It was only after he fell ill that he decided his life needed meaning, and he dedicated his time to ardent study. It wasn't a "gift", it was years of hard work. Ditto for Einstein or any other scientific "genius". We should really remove ourselves from this term. It is largely a myth.
Not all practice is effective practice. You can spend months in training mode and learn nothing. You can play a thousand matches and suck. Learning how to learn is something many people don't know how to do. It isn't natural talent, though. I am a great problem solver because my Dad taught me how to solve problems, and I played competitive chess for years. I honed those skills. I didn't become a great analytic reader until I was 28, but it did happen because I wanted it to. There are some things I still can't do that I will eventually accomplish, like learning a foreign language.
ShinMaruku
Member
Einstein was a mathematical prodigy. Of course that really separates true genius from everybody else is them beating at their craft having a great vision of themselves but it would be misleading that not having a natural talent did great dividends for their love of their craft.
Osu 16 Bit
Member
Not everyone can place top 8 at EVO. I play with a ton of guys who have passion and put in work and just can't get it done for many reasons. They just don't have it mentally. On the other hand I don't think you need the natural talent some think, like super fast reactions or execution. You can work hard on that and/or mask deficiencies. A competitive drive is more important. I do not excel in those areas but the will to win pushed me to that level. If you have the ability to play well in a competitive environment and you put in the work then you can place top 8 at EVO.
ShinMaruku
Member
Finally somebody else admits not everybody can get top 8 at evo. Passion and putting in work sometimes will never be enough.
It depends on what can hold your interest/feel fun for you.
Some people are drawn to certain characters/mechanics, some people love 2-D - some love 3-D...
It all depends on you, and it all depends on if you can get a group of players to play with roughly on your skill level. To me anyway.
It's way more enjoyable to figure stuff out as a sparring group than reading dozens of books and doing research on data and theory.
It's one thing to be a master of the heavy bag an a totally other thing to be in the ring with an opponent trying to knock your head off.
striferser
Huge Nickleback Fan
Eh, don't worry too much. That is just how fighting game are. You need to dedicate your time to be good at it. And yes, positioning is much more important than combo. And spamming projectile is totally legit move, don't let the trash talk make you thing that spamming projectile was a coward move.
It's terrible because anyone willing to simply humble themselves and not hold themselves to a competitive standard can enjoy playing fighting games. Find people of equal skill level online if you don't have friends interested irl and only take them as seriously as you want/need to.
That's what people did before the Internet blew the lid off this whole competitive gaming thing, creating a double consciousness among many that were previously ignorant of what competent play even was.
Fighting games are not hard. I'm sorry. They're just not. Playing them competitively, however, is.
But that's true for any competitive outlet, isn't it?
*edit*
And I'm bookmarking this thread for future reference for those that swear up and down that elaborate tutorials in FGs will help sell casual minded people on FGs. You've got this guy running for the hills. Grats.
Elaborate tuts only serve the converted, are a waste of resources and intimidate more than they actually help.
That's what people did before the Internet blew the lid off this whole competitive gaming thing, creating a double consciousness among many that were previously ignorant of what competent play even was.
Fighting games are not hard. I'm sorry. They're just not. Playing them competitively, however, is.
But that's true for any competitive outlet, isn't it?
*edit*
And I'm bookmarking this thread for future reference for those that swear up and down that elaborate tutorials in FGs will help sell casual minded people on FGs. You've got this guy running for the hills. Grats.
Elaborate tuts only serve the converted, are a waste of resources and intimidate more than they actually help.
To be fair, the original poster described not being good at fighting games as a longstanding bugbear.
ShinMaruku
Member
When a game is only played by the competitive then you will run into the fact that that specific game is hard. There is a sweet spot where people can get their fun and even get converted. However that window is short and is only served in the launch months. Past 3 months you only have the hardcore most of the time.
I don't see this as hard evidence to support that stance. The OP received several different comments that amounted to "this shit takes a lot of time to learn."
David Sirlin made a fantastic tutorial that thought you how to approach Super Turbo matches, and it floats around a half hour. I look at it as the "Teach a man to fish" tutorial, because it is well structured, cut out a lot of the fat, and was split up into a beginner, intermediate, and advanced section, so people can just look at the beginner section, and save the rest for later so they are not completely overwhelmed. Just because most current tutorials don't take into account that information overload for new players, does not mean that they can not be improved to be more inviting for newer players.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0cFs5mHQC4
They are not saying that execution, outside of maybe having absurdly fast reflexes, require natural talent. They are saying that the mental aspect requires it, which is what has been up for debate in the past few posts.
You are right. Then OP would fall under my "readjust your expectations" category.
Karsticles
Member
Why do you think people are prodigies? They practice when they are very young. Some people considered me a chess prodigy when I was young - it was because I played over 30,000 games of chess on the Internet Chess Club and had a chess coach. I wasn't "gifted".
I don't think you read his post.Finally somebody else admits not everybody can get top 8 at evo. Passion and putting in work sometimes will never be enough.
friskykillface
Banned
It does suck, makes me very emo cause i can practice and practice and do good in single player but when i play someone....i choke x suck
i just cant get the controls done, top left x top right x bottom right x bottom left are all a mess, i cant hit any of them
i just cant get the controls done, top left x top right x bottom right x bottom left are all a mess, i cant hit any of them
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Nah. If you're not good right away you don't have a God given gift and you should move on to another genre you are God approved to play. Know your limits and be defined by them.
By the mental aspect do you mean willing to train for hours? I dont think willingness to train is some sort of natural thing. Or is it understanding of the game?
/s?
I don't want to speak for other people here, but what I mean is the mental capacity to apply high level mind games, and the ability to clutch through high pressure situations. Of course I also stated that this stuff doesn't really matter unless you are aiming to play at a super high level, so this is a completely pointless discussion in regards to someone just looking to get competent at the genre. For some reason a bunch of people steered the conversation in the direction of being top 8 at EVO and refused to leave it.
Osu 16 Bit
Member
I think not wanting to play if you can't reach top 8 at EVO makes sense. I don't play non FG competitive games because I know I won't get to a level I am happy with.
People that fall under that have a competitive drive that is far from common. Most people playing these games, even at a competent level, probably aren't there. I'm sure they would be more than happy with reaching that level, but there are lots of people that just get a lot out of simply improving at the game.
EDIT: I especially doubt that someone that's starting from the ground floor in learning the genre is even thinking of going to any tournaments at all, let alone placing high at them.
shadowstar
Member
Common complaints are always related to combos. "I can't do them, in a fight they're hard and my mind goes blank, other people know better combos than me." Really that's the last reason people lose. It's always related to fundamentals. Someone posted the Street Fighter guide in here. Its applicable to all 2D fighters and should be read by everyone.
I also don't get the advice that you should start off with people on your level. A lot of us that have been playing since the arcade SF2 days started by getting our butts kicked by people better than us. The only thing you learn from bad players is bad habits. It's not like you're facing Justin Wong on the other side of the cabinet/internet.
A lot of players have been playing for so long that they go into every new title with a basic understanding of fundamentals and have a leg up on day 1 compared to new or casual players. These long time players just like the genre more than you (the causals) and there is no magic formula to beat someone at their passion in a game of pure skill. You can't catch up with that without playing a lot, losing a lot, playing against better players, watching better players, putting in the training time, and doing everything else you need to do to make up for years of passion.
I also don't get the advice that you should start off with people on your level. A lot of us that have been playing since the arcade SF2 days started by getting our butts kicked by people better than us. The only thing you learn from bad players is bad habits. It's not like you're facing Justin Wong on the other side of the cabinet/internet.
A lot of players have been playing for so long that they go into every new title with a basic understanding of fundamentals and have a leg up on day 1 compared to new or casual players. These long time players just like the genre more than you (the causals) and there is no magic formula to beat someone at their passion in a game of pure skill. You can't catch up with that without playing a lot, losing a lot, playing against better players, watching better players, putting in the training time, and doing everything else you need to do to make up for years of passion.
I see, I think all of that comes through training. I think if you want to get good at "fighting games" the best way is to get really good at one fighting game. If people who say they arent good at these games do the things I listed above for one game it will help them out with others. Tag 2 was the first fighting game I really wanted to get good at, I unlearned everything, I thought I knew and started with the basics. Learning about movement, footsies, pokes, etc. helped me get better at marvel as well. I can even tell how its helped me in mkx because now I dont have to learn about these concepts I already know them, I just had to learn how to apply them in MKX, these games build on eachother. I think these people thinking it requires some natural talent dont realize knowing how to practice is really important, on top of the hours you have to put in.
Osu 16 Bit
Member
I agree. I have that drive so I'm not interested in a multiplayer game if I am not playing at that level.
HomerSimpson-Man
Member
Yep, been playing fighters since the OG Street Fighter 2 arcade release. Street Fighter is one of my favorite franchises, even to the characters story-lines and what not.
But, 24 years later, when trying to play against other people, especially online, still sucking.
But, 24 years later, when trying to play against other people, especially online, still sucking.
Have you spent hours in training mode learning practicing simple seeming things like movement? Or is it all combo training?