Support NeoGAF

[Inuhanyou]

True. All candidates have skeletons. Sanders' skeletons were so specifically repellent to WWC voters that a Trump win would have been considered likely. They matched up with Trump's perceived strengths quite nicely. Sanders would have been opened up like a soft peanut.

This Bernie would have won shit is just not true.

I don't really see how that is the case unless you believe that left wing ideas are inherently bad and disliked by a majority of voters, in which case you would be wrong.

Your skeletons claim doesn't really have merit, when everything Sanders runs on in his policy platform is majority supported by the citizenry, when it comes to expanding medicad social security, and government programs.

Your essentially stating that Trump could have exploited Sanders to a worse degree than he did Clinton, and that would have had to be a miracle to happen when she has a lot more baggage by default.

Hillary and the Democrats have been losing for the past 8 years because all they know how to do is run away from their base for a variety of reasons

 

[Amir0x]

True. All candidates have skeletons. Sanders' skeletons were so specifically repellent to WWC voters that a Trump win would have been considered likely. They matched up with Trump's perceived strengths quite nicely. Sanders would have been opened up like a soft peanut.

This Bernie would have won shit is just not true.

I don't know if Bernie would have won or lost. The fact is it doesn't matter. He lost to Hillary and yea it was fair and square. And then Hillary lost, as repellent as it was winning the popular vote by that much and still losing. Now it is time to move on and double down on ensuring Democrats win by any means necessary.

Problem is some people still need to learn the lesson that there are consequences when seeking purity. So to me best outcome is everyone realizing politicians are liars and work to elect the one most likely to pass some progressive legislation rather than none.

 

[nocturnalis]

Wait, you guys actually didn't know about this? Well do you know about the nuclear waste that he championed to dump on a poor Latino community in Texas because Vermont didn't want to deal with it?

 

[Confounding Factor]

double down on ensuring Democrats win by any means necessary.

Democrats stand for nothing, why vote for them? If that isn't clear from the 2016 elections and these special elections then I don't know what is.

Sure the $15/hr wage is a good start (not enough IMO) but there needs to be a lot more to offer.

Politics is about ideas and Dems have nothing to offer anyone. "Not Trump" won't cut it.

They deserve their time in the wilderness.

 

[nocturnalis]

Democrats stand for nothing, why vote for them? If that isn't clear from the 2016 elections and these special elections then I don't know what is.

Sure the $15/hr wage is a good start (not enough IMO) but there needs to be a lot more to offer.

Politics is about ideas and Dems have nothing to offer anyone. "Not Trump" won't cut it.

They deserve their time in the wilderness.

Different states have different economies. Sure $15 sounds good for California and New York, but it could be detrimental to states that are poor.

 

[Amir0x]

Democrats stand for nothing, why vote for them? If that isn't clear from the 2016 elections and these special elections then I don't know what is.

Sure the $15/hr wage is a good start (not enough IMO) but there needs to be a lot more to offer.

Politics is about ideas and Dems have nothing to offer anyone. "Not Trump" won't cut it.

They deserve their time in the wilderness.

Saying they stand for nothing is thoughtless, empty rhetoric. I can list a hundred super progressive policy points they regularly endorse, that would improve the lives of hundreds of millions in this country. Points that are at the foundation of the entire Democratic organization.

At best your only true argument is that they are poor at messaging. Which i dont know may be true but not worth not supporting the only party with a shot at helping the American people.

But you seriously said you want Trump to dismantle our government so you clearly don't care how many people suffer for your nonsense ideology.

 

[nocturnalis]

Saying they stand for nothing is thoughtless, empty rhetoric. I can list a hundred super progressive policy points they regularly endorse, that would improve the lives of hundreds of millions in this country.

At best your only true argument is that they are poor at messaging.

And they also revealed that they don't care about issues that don't affect them, but want everyone to kowtow to the issues that are important to them. That's a really juvenile way to run a government that is supposed to represent a broad range of people.

 

[Confounding Factor]

Different states have different economies. Sure $15 sounds good for California and New York, but it could be detrimental to states that are poor.

Everyone deserves lower wages except me.

 

[JetBlackPanda]

Wait, you guys actually didn't know about this? Well do you know about the nuclear waste that he championed to dump on a poor Latino community in Texas because Vermont didn't want to deal with it?

Oppo don't stoppo

 

[Wall]

I love that this whole thing was initiated by Trump's campaign chair in Vermont, who also happens to be trying to assume the office that would prosecute the case. And the decsision regarding whether or not to prosecute the case is going to be made by people connected with Trump.

GAF would go beserk if this were happening to a politician that was popular with most members.

Here is a link to the politico article the national reporting is based on:



Jane Sanders comes out looking pretty bad, but as the article points out, bank fraud is hard to prove. The stuff connecting Bernie to the whole thing looks like a whole lot of nothing.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Yeah a lot of money was spent in Georgia and Ossoff still lost. It's pretty hilarious.

Democrats are a joke. Really our whole FPTP voting mechanism is trash, let a lone the fact we have 52 old men in suits deciding the fate of millions of Americans that could lose healthcare insurance.

I hope Trump completely dismantles our government somehow. It's gridlock by design and only cares for a small rich class.

Education in the United States certainly is trash. Your civics/government teacher, if you had one, should be drawn and quartered.

 

[Amir0x]

And they also revealed that they don't care about issues that don't affect them, but want everyone to kowtow to the issues that are important to them. That's a really juvenile way to run a government that is supposed to represent a broad range of people.

Again you can say that, even though it is meaningless. Because only one party is going to promote policies that help the average American. Stop sabotaging your only shot, because real people are going to suffer as result.

 

[OG Shaka Zulu]

LOL what an election. All 3 top candidates under FBI investigation.

 

[PabloBolivar]

LOL what an election. All 3 top candidates under FBI investigation.

Trump isn't tho

 

[wolfhowwl]

No one died when Bernie lied.

 

[nocturnalis]

Everyone deserves lower wages except me.

I don't think that. I think that their wage will be equal in purchasing power. $15 in many states is a lot more than $15 in California.

 

[Amir0x]

Yay Ben ghazi is back!

 

[plagiarize]

I love that this whole thing was initiated by Trump's campaign chair in Vermont, who also happens to be trying to assume the office that would prosecute the case. And the decsision regarding whether or not to prosecute the case is going to be made by people connected with Trump.

GAF would go beserk if this were happening to a politician that was popular with most members.

Here is a link to the politico article the national reporting is based on:



Jane Sanders comes out looking pretty bad, but as the article points out, bank fraud is hard to prove. The stuff connecting Bernie to the whole thing looks like a whole lot of nothing.

And I hope it turns out that way.

Seriously, I hope Bernie is innocent and the FBI agree. I wish no ill. I just take some small pleasure from the situation, for I presume what is pretty understandable reasons.

 

[Bounceounce]

Wait, you guys actually didn't know about this? Well do you know about the nuclear waste that he championed to dump on a poor Latino community in Texas because Vermont didn't want to deal with it?

I know that's a disengenuous representation of the actual "nuclear waste" dump/Sanders perspective on it, as to paint him as an "evil enemy" to minorities and hypocrite, along with many of the other disengenuous and pathetic race based attacks that still propagate this site and similar places.

 

[Confounding Factor]

Saying they stand for nothing is thoughtless, empty rhetoric. I can list a hundred super progressive policy points they regularly endorse, that would improve the lives of hundreds of millions in this country. Points that are at the foundation of the entire Democratic organization.

At best your only true argument is that they are poor at messaging. Which i dont know may be true but not worth not supporting the only party with a shot at helping the American people.

But you seriously said you want Trump to dismantle our government so you clearly don't care how many people suffer for your nonsense ideology.

Whatever its going to take to get the Democrats to move to the left. Otherwise they should perish.

A neoliberal capitalist party that embraces meritocracy thru the lens of education attainment guided by a professional class ideology should be completely disavowed. It is totally alien to the majority of Americans, and indeed the vote for Trump was a rejection of what the Democrats hold so dear.

Time to stop being so complacent when it comes to issues of inequality.

Democrats have helped? Go back to the Clinton years, he blew it on one of the worst trade deals ever with NAFTA and practically ended welfare. He did more damage than Reagan could have ever dreamed of.

And Obama? The man was gifted the biggest opportunity in this century to change the course of this country with what to do with the recovery, and he totally wasted it. He had most of the country on his side to send the banks to the woodshed but he ended up saving them.

Arguably the most disappointing president in my lifetime. Obamacare was shit too. His entire "legacy" is a total joke, look how easy it is for Trump to shit all over it. The man was worthless.

 

[Razorskin]

BUT
HIS
BANK
LOANS

 

[Wall]

Yay Ben ghazi is back!

Of course it's back. Some of the same people behind this were behind the Benghazi smear-job!

 

[Whompa02]

And they also revealed that they don't care about issues that don't affect them, but want everyone to kowtow to the issues that are important to them. That's a really juvenile way to run a government that is supposed to represent a broad range of people.

That's not true at all. Democrats care far more about a broad range of people than any party in government right now. Unfortunately they're completely misrepresented by those in power and influence at the moment.

 

[plagiarize]

Whatever its going to take to get the Democrats to move to the left. Otherwise they should perish.

A neoliberal capitalist party that embraces meritocracy thru the lens of education attainment guided by a professional class ideology should be completely disavowed. It is totally alien to the majority of Americans, and indeed the vote for Trump was a rejection of what the Democrats hold so dear.

Time to stop being so complacent when it comes to issues of inequality.

Democrats have helped? Go back to the Clinton years, he blew it on one of the worst trade deals ever with NAFTA and practically ended welfare. He did more damage than Reagan could have ever dreamed of.

And Obama? The man was gifted the biggest opportunity in this century to change the course of this country with what to do with the recovery, and he totally wasted it. He had most of the country on his side to send the banks to the woodshed but he ended up saving them.

Arguably the most disappointing president in my lifetime. Obamacare was shit too. His entire "legacy" is a total joke, look how easy it is for Trump to shit all over it. The man was worthless.

But what about Bernie's tax returns?

I don't know if I can trust someone under FBI investigation...

Spoiler

Seriously though, can we at least talk about the actual news?

 

[nocturnalis]

I know that's a disengenuous representation of the actual "nuclear waste" dump/Sanders perspective on it, s to paint him as an "evil enemy" to minorities and hypocrite, along with many of the other disengenuous anx pathetic race based attacks that still propagate this site and similar places.

It's not so disingenuous when the man refused to hear the pleas of the people who lived there because he didn't represent them. He did some shady shit, but people chose to ignore it because he said things they liked. We all do it, but a lot of Bernie fans acted like he was politically pure which is BS for someone who has in Congress for as long as he has been.

 

[Amir0x]

Whatever its going to take to get the Democrats to move to the left. Otherwise they should perish.

A neoliberal capitalist party that embraces meritocracy thru the lens of education attainment guided by a professional class ideology should be completely disavowed. It is totally alien to the majority of Americans, and indeed the vote for Trump was a rejection of what the Democrats hold so dear.

Time to stop being so complacent when it comes to issues of inequality.

Democrats have helped? Go back to the Clinton years, he blew it on one of the worst trade deals ever with NAFTA and practically ended welfare. He did more damage than Reagan could have ever dreamed of.

And Obama? The man was gifted the biggest opportunity in this century to change the course of this country with what to do with the recovery, and he totally wasted it. He had most of the country on his side to send the banks to the woodshed but he ended up saving them.

Arguably the most disappointing president in my lifetime. Obamacare was shit too. His entire "legacy" is a total joke, look how easy it is for Trump to shit all over it. The man was worthless.

Essentially none of your post is true, so ill focus on the only thing that even caught my curiosity.

Exactly what would you have had Obama do to make Obamacare tougher to dismantle? Further back, how would you have had him pass a better health care bill?

I'll wait because I expect the explanation to be hilarious.

 

[Toxi]

And Obama? The man was gifted the biggest opportunity in this century to change the course of this country with what to do with the recovery, and he totally wasted it. He had most of the country on his side to send the banks to the woodshed but he ended up saving them.

Arguably the most disappointing president in my lifetime. Obamacare was shit too. His entire "legacy" is a total joke, look how easy it is for Trump to shit all over it. The man was worthless.

You were born in 2009?

 

[hollomat]

Surprised this didn't happen a while ago. From what I read it seemed a clear abuse of power to me. Really screwed over all the students at the school. Maybe I didn't have all the facts.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Whatever its going to take to get the Democrats to move to the left. Otherwise they should perish.

A neoliberal capitalist party that embraces meritocracy thru the lens of education attainment guided by a professional class ideology should be completely disavowed. It is totally alien to the majority of Americans, and indeed the vote for Trump was a rejection of what the Democrats hold so dear.

Time to stop being so complacent when it comes to issues of inequality.

Democrats have helped? Go back to the Clinton years, he blew it on one of the worst trade deals ever with NAFTA and practically ended welfare. He did more damage than Reagan could have ever dreamed of.

And Obama? The man was gifted the biggest opportunity in this century to change the course of this country with what to do with the recovery, and he totally wasted it. He had most of the country on his side to send the banks to the woodshed but he ended up saving them.

Arguably the most disappointing president in my lifetime. Obamacare was shit too. His entire "legacy" is a total joke, look how easy it is for Trump to shit all over it. The man was worthless.

Yes, a massive depression would have improved things. Do you also not realize that the GOP vowed from day zero to block everything possible? As soon as they got power in 2010, that's what they did. There was little opportunity to bring the country left. What was done in that limited time was impressive.

Paul Ryan earlier this year even openly admitted they existed only to block anything and everything Obama proposed and that's why they're not used to governing yet.

You really need to educate yourself and understand the full context of the situation. The GOP has lied, cheated, and stolen to try to erase his accomplishments. I think it says a lot to where your loyalties really lie when you are blaming Obama/Democrats. You say you're for leftism, but you sure do parrot GOP talking points quite frequently.

 

[plagiarize]

Essentially none of your post is true, so ill focus on the only thing that even caught my curiosity.

Exactly what would you have had Obama do to make Obamacare tougher to dismantle? Further back, how would you have had him pass a better health care bill?

I'll wait because I expect the explanation to be hilarious.

If he'd been pure then surely the Democrats would have won a super duper majority in the house (which is obviously better than a super majority) and they wouldn't have sabotaged his efforts to pass more complete healthcare. Because everyone would have stopped being racist and voted every democrat back into office, if they just killed every trade deal, split up the banks, and did $15 minimum wage.

Because that's what progressives want. No trade deals, and smaller banks so that they can fail and people can lose their jobs, which would totally have been great for the economy.

Spoiler

$15 minimum wage would probably actually work.

 

[Confounding Factor]

Essentially none of your post is true, so ill focus on the only thing that even caught my curiosity.

Exactly what would you have had Obama do to make Obamacare tougher to dismantle? Further back, how would you have had him pass a better health care bill?

I'll wait because I expect the explanation to be hilarious.

He couldn't even persuade Lieberman to add a public option to Obamacare so it got dropped. Did Obama once ever go to the public directly to turn up the heat on those senators that refused certain initial provisions to the bill? Nope. What a spineless feckless "leader" he was.

Democrats should have changed the Senate rules for a simple majority to get some sort of UHC to pass thru (which is what Obama campaigned on and supposedly the kind of bill he wanted), but we ended up with a garbage marketplace insurance system that resembled what the conservative Heritage Foundation drafted up in 92.

Honestly I blame a lot of Obamacare for why Hilary lost last year. She was an awful candidate who ran a terrible campaign, but to be honest I think the loss had little to do with her.

 

[Toxi]

1. Destroy the only safety nets for millions of Americans
2. ???
3. THE DOWNFALL OF CAPITALISM

 

[BotoxAgent]

Whatever its going to take to get the Democrats to move to the left. Otherwise they should perish.

A neoliberal capitalist party that embraces meritocracy thru the lens of education attainment guided by a professional class ideology should be completely disavowed. It is totally alien to the majority of Americans, and indeed the vote for Trump was a rejection of what the Democrats hold so dear.

Time to stop being so complacent when it comes to issues of inequality.

Democrats have helped? Go back to the Clinton years, he blew it on one of the worst trade deals ever with NAFTA and practically ended welfare. He did more damage than Reagan could have ever dreamed of.

And Obama? The man was gifted the biggest opportunity in this century to change the course of this country with what to do with the recovery, and he totally wasted it. He had most of the country on his side to send the banks to the woodshed but he ended up saving them.

Arguably the most disappointing president in my lifetime. Obamacare was shit too. His entire "legacy" is a total joke, look how easy it is for Trump to shit all over it. The man was worthless.

Cornell West has a GAF account?

 

[nocturnalis]

That's not true at all. Democrats care far more about a broad range of people than any party in government right now. Unfortunately they're completely misrepresented by those in power and influence at the moment.

And on a large scale, most Democrats fight for these things. I'm saying people don't do their research and only look at things based on optics and idealism. Just a day or so ago, there was a thread on here about how it is Nancy Pellosi's fault that the Dems didn't take those districts in Georgia or South Carolina. It was pointed out numerous times that isn't Pellosi's fault because it is Tom Perez and Keith Ellison's (and the Dems wouldn't have won it anyway), but people thought that Pellosi should fired because of optics when she is actually good at her job.

 

[nocturnalis]

Essentially none of your post is true, so ill focus on the only thing that even caught my curiosity.

Exactly what would you have had Obama do to make Obamacare tougher to dismantle? Further back, how would you have had him pass a better health care bill?

I'll wait because I expect the explanation to be hilarious.

Well he couldn't have because he would have needed a supermajority, which was complicated by the illness of Ted Kennedy and the loss of his seat. Also Dems in red states were too busy trying to save their jobs instead of doing the right things. The propaganda against the ACA was extreme also. The backlash of AHCA is nothing compared to the vitriol that the ACA recieved.

 

[Kolx]

You either die a commie or live long enough to become the 1%.

And Bernie lived a long-ass time.

I laughed way harder than I should've at this.

 

[Confounding Factor]

Yes, a massive depression would have improved things. Do you also not realize that the GOP vowed from day zero to block everything possible? As soon as they got power in 2010, that's what they did. There was little opportunity to bring the country left. What was done in that limited time was impressive.

Yet Democrats had all the power when Obama won his first term, there is no excuse.

And yeah when he won re-election in 2012, he knew that he was going to be facing an obstructionist GOP again...so why didn't he fight? Why didn't he go directly to the American people?

Cause all he wanted was bipartisanship. That's not what Americans want. We want winners in our politics.

Obama wanted to be president, but not use the office in a progressive way.

Paul Ryan earlier this year even openly admitted they existed only to block anything and everything Obama proposed and that's why they're not used to governing yet.

Who cares what Paul Ryan said, he's just trying to save face from the embarrassment of not having enough votes when the ACHA was intially introduced.

You really need to educate yourself and understand the full context of the situation. The GOP has lied, cheated, and stolen to try to erase his accomplishments. I think it says a lot to where your loyalties really lie when you are blaming Obama/Democrats. You say you're for leftism, but you sure do parrot GOP talking points quite frequently.

And Democrats haven't done the same? You really think every Democrat policy over the last 40 years has been perfect?

Seriously what accomplishments? The whole trick to American politics is to prolong fixing problems that would help Americans in their everyday lives.

 

[Twig and Berries]

Brady Toensing being involved in this makes me question some motive but looking forward to seeing the outcome of the investigation.

Kinda surprised but not surprised this isn't being brought up much, at least not in the first few pages.

Well I hope he's exonerated but if Bernie deserves to feel the burn, that's that

 

[Whompa02]

And on a large scale, most Democrats fight for these things. I'm saying people don't do their research and only look at things based on optics and idealism. Just a day or so ago, there was a thread on here about how it is Nancy Pellosi's fault that the Dems didn't take those districts in Georgia or South Carolina. It was pointed out numerous times that isn't Pellosi's fault because it is Tom Perez and Keith Ellison's (and the Dems wouldn't have won it anyway), but people thought that Pellosi should fired because of optics when she is actually good at her job.

Fair point. I was definitely one of the people asking why Pelosi was being witchunted from some. Nobody had anything concrete to offer as to why. She allegedly did most of the legwork to get Obamacare passed which was huge so I definitely had no beef with her.

Im starting to feel like Pelosi and Sanders are the current hot take candidates for why democrats can't get ahead.

 

[Amir0x]

He couldn't even persuade Lieberman to add a public option to Obamacare so it got dropped. Did Obama once ever go to the public directly to turn up the heat on those senators that refused certain initial provisions to the bill? Nope. What a spineless feckless "leader" he was.

He did go public, he did criticise Lieberman. False narratives don't help your argument, stick to the facts. He did try to persuade him. You want Obama to magic Lieberman to not be paid by special interests specifically aligned against a public option? Remember, Lieberman supported McCain.

Democrats should have changed the Senate rules for a simple majority to get some sort of UHC to pass thru (which is what Obama campaigned on and supposedly the kind of bill he wanted), but we ended up with a garbage marketplace insurance system that resembled what the conservative Heritage Foundation drafted up in 92.

So to be clear your strategy to make it HARDER for Republicans to dismantle his health care is to change a Senate rule which by definition would have made it infinitely easier to dismantle the second the Republicans gained a majority?

Holy shit lol

 

[televator]

Bernie voter here:

Well... FUCK.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

They had power for like 2 years and that was it. You really have no clue how anything works. Confounding, You need to spend some time on Wikipedia or something. Just spend some time there and see how deep the rabbit hole goes.

The United States is not built for rapid, uninterrupted progress.

 

[nocturnalis]

Fair point. I was definitely one of the people asking why Pelosi was being witchunted from some. Nobody had anything concrete to offer as to why. She allegedly did most of the legwork to get Obamacare passed which was huge so I definitely had no beef on her.

It's hard to get people to care about how things actually happen. Fake news may be a new name, but it has been a real lived phenomena for many years now.

 

[Confounding Factor]

The United States is not built for rapid, uninterrupted progress.

That's part of the problem. But there are a few rule changes that can be made which would make passing policies a bit more effective, regardless of what side is in power.

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

I love that this whole thing was initiated by Trump's campaign chair in Vermont, who also happens to be trying to assume the office that would prosecute the case. And the decsision regarding whether or not to prosecute the case is going to be made by people connected with Trump.

GAF would go beserk if this were happening to a politician that was popular with most members.

Here is a link to the politico article the national reporting is based on:



Jane Sanders comes out looking pretty bad, but as the article points out, bank fraud is hard to prove. The stuff connecting Bernie to the whole thing looks like a whole lot of nothing.

After reading this it seems like its a take down action, since it is rooted from a Trumpeter.

 

[Sirpopopop]

Democrats stand for nothing, why vote for them? If that isn't clear from the 2016 elections and these special elections then I don't know what is.

Sure the $15/hr wage is a good start (not enough IMO) but there needs to be a lot more to offer.

Politics is about ideas and Dems have nothing to offer anyone. "Not Trump" won't cut it.

They deserve their time in the wilderness.

"Not Trump" is an amazing policy.

Literally doing the exact opposite of what Trump is doing in almost any situation is the best way to go.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

That's part of the problem. But there are a few rule changes that can be made which would make passing policies a bit more effective, regardless of what side is in power.

About the only thing is nuking the filibuster. And up until 2016/2017, it was used mostly responsibly. GOP forced the issue with their unprecedented obstruction. Dems did get rid of it, btw, for court nominations. So to say they didn't take drastic measures to force even a basic level of movement is false.

Even the GOP hasn't touched it yet for legislation. But sure, moving forward, I don't think it has a place anymore. Not with how the GOP operates. But for it to even work how we want it to, Dems would need the House, Senate, and Executive.

But even then, it just means the next time they get power, they can easily overturn laws previously passed. Grinding progress to a halt.

 

[Confounding Factor]

He did go public, he did criticise Lieberman. False narratives don't help your argument, stick to the facts. He did try to persuade him. You want Obama to magic Lieberman to not be paid by special interests specifically aligned against a public option? Remember, Lieberman supported McCain.

Should have eliminated the filibuster, it's real sad that one man prevented a chance for a public option.

So to be clear your strategy to make it HARDER for Republicans to dismantle his health care is to change a Senate rule which by definition would have made it infinitely easier to dismantle the second the Republicans gained a majority?

Holy shit lol

Republicans wouldn't have the political power they have today if it wasn't for how bad Obamacare is and if we had some kind of UHC.

Obama never should have said "If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor, if you like your plan..."

 

[Toxi]

Seriously what accomplishments? The whole trick to American politics is to prolong fixing problems that would help Americans in their everyday lives.

Well my cousin's family isn't broke paying for his medical bills. I think that helps their everyday lives, but what do I know?

 

[The Technomancer]

Republicans wouldn't have the political power they have today if it wasn't for how bad Obamacare is and if we had some kind of UHC.

Whelp that's it for me tonight