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[Balphon]

http://www.270towin.com/states/New_York

I think this'll be the last time I reply to one of these posts. They have seemed less than educated about the situation.

I'm not saying your voting for Trump as a lark is likely to have any consequence. I'm just saying that doesn't make it any less stupid.

If you want a more serious retort, by assuming your vote for President has no value (which is likely correct, as you say) you've reduced the act of voting to a wholly symbolic one. And your choice in so doing is to demonstrate complete indifference to the actual evils Trump stands for because you think it would be funny.

 

[EatinOlives]

It's sad to me that you say that when I've clarified multiple times that I am voting on everything I could even theoretically have an influence over.

I do appreciate your conviction though, I wish I had the confidence you had in our presidential selection process. I will admit, when I started following elections I certainly had that vigor in me, perhaps it's just seeing the process repeatedly that has worn on me.

If you're voting for down-ticket (and you should be), what exactly stops you from doing straight-ticket even if you in your mind think there's no real effect?

If you already live in a strong blue state, your vote will reinforce that strength. If you're like me and vote in a strong red state, your vote inches the state closer to purple. And mind you, Texas IS turning purple. If I maintained that my vote "didn't matter", it would quickly seem apparent that it's a self-defeating argument, because if everyone else voting blue said the same thing it would only help the state remain red.

 

[brainchild]

One distinction:

Bernie Supporters heed his words.

Bernie-or-Busters are a different breed. They claim that they're serious about his issues and movement, but they're willing to condemn it to death if they don't get precisely what they want.

We see these groups being used interchangeably all the time, often in disingenuous ways.

I can detect no lies in this post.

 

[sans_pants]

If Trump wins by one vote solely because I made it in NYS, and didn't need those electoral votes to get past the post, no, my vote wouldn't have made a difference. I get what you're saying, but mathematically it wouldn't have.

I think I'd consider myself less of a Bernie supporter and more of somebody who is sick of seeing his supporters constantly shit upon for no decent reason? If anything it's the electoral college that pisses me off, take that out of the equation and we wouldn't have this entire petty debate.

bruh, vote your conscience. if you think trump is better than hillary, go for it

 

[alr1ght]

And this ladies and gentlemen, is why people wanted Bernie to change his tone after he had all but lost in February. He played a dangerous game with Trump sitting on the other side and hopefully it doesn't come back to bite everyone.

 

[Acerac]

None of the comments on the first page are for Bernie supporters who are now on board to vote in November. They are for supporters who are still in this "Bernie or Bust" bullshit. It's over. Move on.

That isn't to say HillGAF are guilty in their mud-slinging, but trying to paint Sanders supporters as innocent is straight bullshit.

That has always been one of my issues, when I hear part of a group getting insulted, I always mentally apply it to the entire group. It has caused me issues in the past, and rereading the first page it seems that I have made that mistake again. Fair call, my apologies for my misinterpretation of the situation.

I'd never paint Sanders fans as saints, but you must admit, the insults have largely gone one way on this board for quite some time now. Of course, were we on Reddit we'd not be having this conversation.

 

[Sianos]

I agree with HylianTom: actual Bernie supporters who care about his furthering his policy goals aren't going to stomp their feet and vote for his policy diametric opposites. The Busters are the next next generation of reactionaries who will be justified by pundits saying supposedly they became that way because repeated cell division makes you conservative, when the truth was they merely had no principles they understood to begin with.

Shockingly, the same people who can't be assed to come out to vote in midterms and then whine about it couldn't be assed to come out to their own protest. How surprising.

 

[Speely]

One distinction:

Bernie Supporters heed his words.

Bernie-or-Busters are a different breed. They claim that they're serious about his issues and movement, but they're willing to condemn it to death if they don't get precisely what they want.

We see these groups being used interchangeably all the time, often in disingenuous ways.

Thank you. Very succinct way to put this madness. I am a huge Bernie supporter, but this Bernie or Bust nonsense is scary to me, and dangerous for America (and potentially the world.) I'm going to go ahead and continue my Bernie support by taking his good advice and vote Democrat in the GE.

 

[brainchild]

And this ladies and gentlemen, is why people wanted Bernie to change his tone after he had all but lost in February. He played a dangerous game with Trump sitting on the other side and hopefully it doesn't come back to bite everyone.

A fringe of crazed voters is not Bernie's fault. These people weren't going to change their minds in February. You might as well say that Bernie should never have run in the first place.

 

[SneakersSO]

I'm a Sanders supporter. I won't be voting for Hillary in November, nor will I be voting for Trump either. This election has literally shown just how awful both sides of the political spectrum are willing to be for the sake of their respective views on the greater good.

I'm not a Bernie or Bust supporter - if another candidate, whether independent or a democrat, were to arise whose history & ideals line up with my own, i'd vote for them in a heart beat. As it stands, i'll most likely be filling in my vote for Bernie Sanders or another 3rd party candidate.

 

[cdyhybrid]

Bigger revolution - this or Chip Kelly with the Eagles?

 

[semisonic]

I don't need justification to make decisions that don't have any influence over anything.

I ain't got a justification for why I prefer Cheerios over Corn Flakes either.

Man, this is some gross-ass shit right here. I mean, you knew that already, but still. But whatever man, you do you. I'll just remember to skip over your name next political thread I see you in.

 

[sans_pants]

I'm a Sanders supporter. I won't be voting for Hillary in November, nor will I be voting for Trump either. This election has literally shown just how awful both sides of the political spectrum are willing to be for the sake of their respective views on the greater good.

I'm not a Bernie or Bust supporter - if another candidate, whether independent or a democrat, were to arise whose history & ideals line up with my own, i'd vote for them in a heart beat. As it stands, i'll most likely be filling in my vote for Bernie Sanders or another 3rd party candidate.

both sides are the same....

 

[SneakersSO]

both sides are the same....

No, no they aren't. They're both really shitty, just in completely different ways. Neither party are anywhere near ideal, and both have ruined the political landscape & electoral system that we have before us.

 

[Sianos]

A fringe of crazed voters is not Bernie's fault. These people weren't going to change their minds in February. You might as well say that Bernie should never have run in the first place.

No, what you might as well have said is "it would have been wise for Bernie to not have been so incendiary in February and inadvertantly help foster an environment for the Busters".

Now I don't personally think in the grand scheme of things this will be an issue since he has since cooled down and worked towards unity and Hillary was similar in 2008, but the point being made is not that he shouldn't have run. Just that he should have tempered his rhetoric and not tacitly endorsed the "boys and girls who cried FRAUD" crowd.

 

[Speely]

A fringe of crazed voters is not Bernie's fault. These people weren't going to change their minds in February. You might as well say that Bernie should never have run in the first place.

Agreed. And holding out might have created some pressure to affect some party policies and reforms, which by most accounts actually worked. The Democratic Party will be better off for Bernie's efforts imo. His supporters should be proud of that and get to work on voting Dem in the election, then mobilizing for the midterms.

Crazy fringe gonna crazy fringe.

 

[Acerac]

I'm not saying your voting for Trump as a lark is likely to have any consequence. I'm just saying that doesn't make it any less stupid.

If you want a more serious retort, by assuming your vote for President has no value (which is likely correct, as you say) you've reduced the act of voting to a wholly symbolic one. And your choice in so doing is to demonstrate complete indifference to the actual evils Trump stands for because you think it would be funny.

If you're voting for down-ticket (and you should be), what exactly stops you from doing straight-ticket even if you in your mind think there's no real effect?

If you already live in a strong blue state, your vote will reinforce that strength. If you're like me and vote in a strong red state, your vote inches the state closer to purple. And mind you, Texas IS turning purple. If I maintained that my vote "didn't matter", it would quickly seem apparent that it's a self-defeating argument, because if everyone else voting blue said the same thing it would only help the state remain red.

I'll reply to both these posts at the same time, as my answer is largely the same to both. Honestly, much of it is lost faith in the system. While I'm certain to influence any election I can, knowing that the system is set up in a way that essentially negates any influence I'd have over the national election is disheartening at best.

You guys are right, of course. Symbolically, voting straight ticket is the right thing to do. It just feels horrible knowing that all it is is a symbol.

Man, this is some gross-ass shit right here. I mean, you knew that already, but still. But whatever man, you do you. I'll just remember to skip over your name next political thread I see you in.

If you're not going to actually say anything worthwhile when replying to my posts that would be appreciated, thank you.

 

[GameAddict411]

35K as a low estimate? I think the DNC should definitely have physiatrists volunteering to help all of these delusional people. They refused the win to Hillary even though she won by majority, and now they are ignoring Sanders endorsement. These protests won't help anyone and the DNC is definitely responding to the leaked emails without these people.

 

[megalowho]

I'm a Sanders supporter. I won't be voting for Hillary in November, nor will I be voting for Trump either. This election has literally shown just how awful both sides of the political spectrum are willing to be for the sake of their respective views on the greater good.

I'm not a Bernie or Bust supporter - if another candidate, whether independent or a democrat, were to arise whose history & ideals line up with my own, i'd vote for them in a heart beat. As it stands, i'll most likely be filling in my vote for Bernie Sanders or another 3rd party candidate.

Sorry, but you sound like the definition of a Bernie or Bust voter who doesn't fully grasp the stakes of a Trump presidency or how first past the post electoral systems function. I hope the forthcoming week convinces you to vote Democrat in the fall if you care about turning the ideals you support into political action.

 

[kirblar]

I'll reply to both these posts at the same time, as my answer is largely the same to both. Honestly, much of it is lost faith in the system. While I'm certain to influence any election I can, knowing that the system is set up in a way that essentially negates any influence I'd have over the national election is disheartening at best.

You guys are right, of course. Symbolically, voting straight ticket is the right thing to do. It just feels horrible knowing that all it is is a symbol.

It's not a symbol (see: Brexit) - you are just being forced to compromise as an individual voter instead of being given a plethora of candidates like you're picking from a fighting game roster.

People have been bitching about this forever, but it keeps the power in the center this way instead of causing the system to bounce between polarized extremes.

 

[WhateverItTakes]

I'm a Sanders supporter. I won't be voting for Hillary in November, nor will I be voting for Trump either. This election has literally shown just how awful both sides of the political spectrum are willing to be for the sake of their respective views on the greater good.

I'm not a Bernie or Bust supporter - if another candidate, whether independent or a democrat, were to arise whose history & ideals line up with my own, i'd vote for them in a heart beat. As it stands, i'll most likely be filling in my vote for Bernie Sanders or another 3rd party candidate.

However you slice is, Hillary is near Bernie on the left of the political spectrum. Maybe nowhere near as close as you'd like, but Hillary in office will push America further to the left then it is currently. And therefore, it'll be closer to being the America that Bernie, your candidate, wanted to achieve by running.

Bernie's endorsed her. If Bernie was your guy, this is what he wants you to do now. Even if you hate the whole system, why not follow his directions on this, and help create a better future?

 

[Sianos]

No, no they aren't. They're both really shitty, just in completely different ways. Neither party are anywhere near ideal, and both have ruined the political landscape & electoral system that we have before us.

How are both parties really shitty? And please don't conflate "really shitty" and "not near ideal", because this is a democracy and forty percent of the electorate supports a xenophobic blowhard... the conditions in America mean we can't get votes for the ideal yet, and must instead lay strong foundations for the development of long term projects - that would be more stable anyways - as the country trends more to the left even among Democrats.

I have plenty evidence as to why the Republican party is shitty, so I'm more curious towards what you, a liberal, find so extremely off putting about your candidate of choice's party.

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

No, no they aren't. They're both really shitty, just in completely different ways. Neither party are anywhere near ideal, and both have ruined the political landscape & electoral system that we have before us.

I mean on one hand you have the most progressive platform in American History with a candidate more left than Obama and on the other hand you have a literal corporatist fascist with a platform that will destroy millions of lives nationally and internationally...

Uh-huh..

 

[brainchild]

I'm a Sanders supporter. I won't be voting for Hillary in November, nor will I be voting for Trump either. This election has literally shown just how awful both sides of the political spectrum are willing to be for the sake of their respective views on the greater good.

I'm not a Bernie or Bust supporter - if another candidate, whether independent or a democrat, were to arise whose history & ideals line up with my own, i'd vote for them in a heart beat. As it stands, i'll most likely be filling in my vote for Bernie Sanders or another 3rd party candidate.

In effect, you will be no different than a Bernie-or-Bust supporter because there will be no candidate like Bernie to arise from the ashes come November and so you will end up voting for him anyway. Your distinction is meaningless.

However, if you're in a deep blue or red state, I'd say your vote for Bernie will be harmless, so in that case, it doesn't really matter.

 

[GameAddict411]

The whole GAF anti-Bernie attitude is disgusting. The few times that I've tried to engage in dialogue on GAF in political threads, I get run out by the Hill-Shills on GAF. They're childish and rude. If you haven't drank the Hillary Kool-Aid, you may as well not even try to have a conversation about politics on GAF. If these attitudes are representative of the democratic party, I do not want to be associated with it. I'm tempted to vote for Trump just to watch this dumpster fire of a political party burn, especially after all of the corruption that has been exposed.

The irony and stupidity in this post is incredible. You talk about shitty attitude but yours is by far the worst in this thread. You claim to support Sanders, but will support Trump to piss off "Hill-Shills" lmao what an amazing jump of logic.

 

[Crisco]

Anytime I read anything to the effect of "both sides are the same", I just auto-translate to "I know nothing about politics and don't vote anyway". Never been wrong.

 

[Bolivar687]

Got out of church this morning and all of Market Street east of City Hall was filled with protestors marching.

 

[GameAddict411]

Sorry, but you sound like the definition of a Bernie or Bust voter who doesn't fully grasp the stakes of a Trump presidency or how first past the post electoral systems function. I hope the forthcoming week convinces you to vote Democrat in the fall if you care about turning the ideals you support into political action.

Don't waste your breath on these people. I deal with these kind of people on daily bases. Some of them are my friends, and they use the same argument. The reality of the situation is that they don't even vote. I laughed so hard when a guy was bitching when " Crooked" Hillary win the primaries. When I asked him if he voted for Sanders he said he didn't lol. Why? "I Forgot." They don't vote period.

 

[sans_pants]

I mean on one hand you have the most progressive platform in American History with a candidate more left than Obama and on the other hand you have a literal corporatist fascist with a platform that will destroy millions of lives nationally and internationally...

Uh-huh..

but they were mean to bernie

 

[Balphon]

I'll reply to both these posts at the same time, as my answer is largely the same to both. Honestly, much of it is lost faith in the system. While I'm certain to influence any election I can, knowing that the system is set up in a way that essentially negates any influence I'd have over the national election is disheartening at best.

You guys are right, of course. Symbolically, voting straight ticket is the right thing to do. It just feels horrible knowing that all it is is a symbol.

I can totally respect feelings of disillusionment with and powerlessness within the system. It sucks.

Still, in this particular circumstance I think it's important to keep in mind the fact that the people most likely to be directly harmed by a Trump presidency oftentimes suffer those same feelings all the more starkly, and with good reason.

 

[Acerac]

Hmm... rereading the last page, I'm throwing this thread wildly off topic. My apologies to all, and I assure you I'm not taking any decision I make in the voting booth lightly.

 

[Plumbob]

I'm a Sanders supporter. I won't be voting for Hillary in November, nor will I be voting for Trump either. This election has literally shown just how awful both sides of the political spectrum are willing to be for the sake of their respective views on the greater good.

I'm not a Bernie or Bust supporter - if another candidate, whether independent or a democrat, were to arise whose history & ideals line up with my own, i'd vote for them in a heart beat. As it stands, i'll most likely be filling in my vote for Bernie Sanders or another 3rd party candidate.

You're a Bernie or Buster.

More importantly, in November you have a chance to stand up to America's Hitler, and you'll refuse to take it.

That's on you, 100%.

 

[pigeon]

never understood this by the way.

It may be morally a good idea for me to become a doctor, but if everyone became a doctor we would have chaos.

Kant is talking about maxims, not individual actions. If your maxim for life was "being a doctor is better than not being a doctor just because" then Kant would criticize that maxim as not being a sensible one for all people. And obviously he'd be right, that's a dumb philosophical maxim.

If you had a maxim like "helping people is good" or "get paid YOLO" and that maxim led you to become a doctor then that's fine, depending on, like, how good you judge that particular maxim to be. Presumably it would not lead everybody else in the world to also become a doctor.

No, no they aren't. They're both really shitty, just in completely different ways.

Sure.

One party is literally nominating a Nazi, and the other party sent some snippy emails.

It's pretty telling that you think those are equally bad offenses!

 

[kirblar]

Got out of church this morning and all of Market Street east of City Hall was filled with protestors marching.

Were you snowblinded?

 

[The Llama]

Got out of church this morning and all of Market Street east of City Hall was filled with protestors marching.

Ah I missed the morning stuff, was out between 2pm-4pm. Got to see this, though.

 

[gohomehobo]

I'm a Sanders supporter. I won't be voting for Hillary in November, nor will I be voting for Trump either. This election has literally shown just how awful both sides of the political spectrum are willing to be for the sake of their respective views on the greater good.

I'm not a Bernie or Bust supporter - if another candidate, whether independent or a democrat, were to arise whose history & ideals line up with my own, i'd vote for them in a heart beat. As it stands, i'll most likely be filling in my vote for Bernie Sanders or another 3rd party candidate.

Hillary's platform is 80% similar to Bernie's and progresses the country further toward his views, if you are willing to forgo that for someone that is diametrically opposed to Bernie's views then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Breads]

My take away is that the Bernie or Busters are explicitly undemocratic and self serving people.

 

[jack_package_200]

My take away is that the Bernie or Busters are explicitly undemocratic and self serving people.

Democracy is great as long as I win.

Otherwise its bullshit

 

[Knoxcore]

Democrats are going to lose in November aren't we?

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

My take away is that the Bernie or Busters are explicitly undemocratic and self serving people.

Some of them are, just like some Hillary supporters are. Mind you, more Sanders supporters flock to Hillary, than Hillary-or-McCain'ers did in 08.


Realize that this is what standing up for your political convictions mean. Hillary going to the center is of no concern to these people. They care about their issues, about TPP and fracking and Israel, and so they should. No fucking way we would have the most progressive platform in history if it wasn't for people who wouldn't lend down to compromise.
These demonstrations are most likely insignificant. And saying "don't vote Hillary" is a short hand for I'll-vote-for-Hillary-if-she-comes-out-against-TPP.
Many people will say that she can't. She cannot do those things cuz reasons, but that is no no concerns to these people. Everybody votes selfish, and being single issue voter is what gave America a lot of its most progressive platforms.

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

Ah I missed the morning stuff, was out between 2pm-4pm. Got to see this, though.

That's a terrifying "whatever it is" of Bernie. Looks like something that would be used to burn in a ritualistic fashion.

 

[call_kotaku]

My take away is that the Bernie or Busters are explicitly undemocratic and self serving people.

I wouldn't go that far. There's an aspect of these sort of populist movements that just want a validation of their views and political agency, and it's natural to feel betrayed by the political establishment or become frustrated with other people's cynicism, especially if it's their first foray into politics.

It's not a Bernie-specific thing, I'm sure the same kinds of things would've happened if Trump lost the primary this year, or if Obama didn't defeat Clinton in 2008.

 

[pigeon]

Some of them are, just like some Hillary supporters are. Mind you, more Sanders supporters flock to Hillary, than Hillary-or-McCain'ers did in 08.


Realize that this is what standing up for your political convictions mean. Hillary going to the center is of no concern to these people. They care about their issues, about TPP and fracking and Israel, and so they should. No fucking way we would have the most progressive platform in history if it wasn't for people who wouldn't lend down to compromise.
These demonstrations are most likely insignificant. And saying "don't vote Hillary" is a short hand for I'll-vote-for-Hillary-if-she-comes-out-against-TPP.
Many people will say that she can't. She cannot do those things cuz reasons, but that is no no concerns to these people. Everybody votes selfish, and being single issue voter is what gave America a lot of its most progressive platforms.

This is bullshit.

If you're a single-issue voter to the degree that "other guy is a Nazi" is not an important issue to you, then, just as with the Republicans who will vote for Trump because of taxes, you are de facto supporting white supremacy.

If Trump takes over America because people felt really strongly about fracking, those people are just as much quislings as Paul Ryan.

 

[brainchild]

I agree that Bernie supporters should follow Bernie's lead but let's dispense with the notion that just because Hillary and Bernie agree on most things policy-wise that Hillary shouldn't be viewed as a much worse candidate than Bernie in the eyes of a Bernie supporter.

The substance of any differences that Bernie and Hillary might have is exponentially more important than the amount of differences they might have. If those differences are deplorable and abhorrent, even a 2% difference could be too much for some people.

For me:

- Hillary's stance on the death penalty is absolutely disgusting and unacceptable
- based on her numerous foreign policy opinions in the past, I find Hillary to be way too hawkish
- Hillary has too many ties to special interest groups which puts her in a more difficult position to be effective in helping to get big money out of politics

Having said all that, I'm still voting for Hillary. But considering how serious the issues that I listed are for me, I consider her to be a bad candidate, even if I believe that she will be effective as she can be in doing what she wants to do.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Just tell me the truth guys...is Trump actually going to win this?

 

[Intheflorsh]

Just tell me the truth guys...is Trump actually going to win this?

Unlikely.

 

[El Odio]

Being completely honest this is the part of the Sanders base that completely bugs/confuses the hell out of me. I wouldn't mind being proven wrong but I can't remember any people make these crazy puppets or getting tattoos and the like for Obama, Bush, Hillary or any other real major candidate in recent memory. It's like the man himself is more important to them than anything he actually says.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Just tell me the truth guys...is Trump actually going to win this?

I mean

If Bernie and Bros manage to fuck this up

Yeah

Trump has a populist thing going on. Just like people didn't think Brexit could happen, here we are on the other side of the coin.

It's not just a Bernie thing tho. But these busters aren't helping.

 

[Fracas]

Just tell me the truth guys...is Trump actually going to win this?

I still think the Democrats will take it, but not without doing everything within their power to throw as hard as possible.

 

[megalowho]

Democrats are going to lose in November aren't we?

I used to laugh at the pure blooded RINO witchunts and demonizing of even slightly moderate politicians from the right. It's not as funny seeing it manifest on the left.

I haven't forgotten Nader's influence on the 2000 elections, and yes, it's scary seeing those same destructive and uncompromising sentiments take hold of liberals once more. These conversations are not new. The burn it down folks got what they wanted then, and here we are not two decades and one democrat president later ready to repeat the mistakes of the very recent past, with an even more odious candidate and erratic platform waiting in the wings to reap the benefits.

I worry as well, and can only hope passionate Bernie supporters who feel disenfranchised enough to throw their vote away keep an open mind throughout the forthcoming campaign season and debates before they enter the voting booth in November. Perfect cannot be the enemy of good, especially in the face of one of the great threats to the stability of the union we've seen in quite a while.