Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
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Bernie or Busters are flocking Philly to protest DNC, city projecting 35-50k protesto
- Thread starter RustyNails
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The last time a presidential candidate went from being 10 points up to losing the election was Jimmy Carter in his 1980 loss to Ronald Reagan. History shows that complacency on the part of the Democrats would be unwise.
Mr. Giggles
Member
OriginalThinking
Member
Ideological extremism is a dangerous thing whichever way you face. As I've gotten older I've realised that compromise is not a dirty word or deed, it's essential to progress, and progress is often slow and painful. You do not get everything you wish for. It's about taking an entire country forward and that is not easy with any population, especially not one with the political divisions that are deep seated within America. In my youth, I might have felt differently. I probably would have been more opinionated. Perhaps I would have been a "Bernie or Bust" supporter. I now understand that you have to grab the best deal that's on offer and the one that's realistic. Maybe as I've gotten older it's less about being a dreamer and more about pragmatism.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
I don't take it that much at face value. When I see these demonstrations, I see people who just want Hillary to go more to the left. And I think very few of them will vote for Trump. We've seen over and over again, that people don't actually vote the way they say they vote. At worst I think, most people are going to vote for a third party.
And look, historically, in the US and the world, third parties have been important. They have the power to push an agenda from the big parties if they make enough ruckus, and it is always up to the establishment to decide if it is worth embracing, or if they think the smaller rabble rouser are making a ruckus.
This sort of argument and rhetoric being imposed here, that if you are a single issue voter, that you're giving it away to whatever evil that persist is bullshit.
That's the same kind of logic that was used against single issue movements who supported womens rights or parties that abolished slavery.
Sometimes these parties become absorbed into the big parties, and thus can start affecting things from within, and other times, these small single-issue parties start a popular agenda that gets traction.
What these people are doing is not wishing for Trump to be president. They just want Hillary to move further left, just as Bernie did. And didn't get a lot of shit he wanted in the end? He is not president, but it'd be hard to argue that he didn't start a conversation about the issues he cared about.
There is good reason to believe that these people are just living out what Bernie said; "If Hillary wants my voters, she has to earn them". And here we are. Progressives asking Hillary to be more progressive.
It's not all or nothing, or idealism. It's just fighting for what you care about. It's fucking moronic to talk about pragmatism being the only way forward. Particularly when these people are mostly insignificant in numbers. The whole point for them is getting attention. Most likely Hillary is not going to care and it's not going to matter. She needs to center votes, and she cannot go more left. Still doesn't mean there is anything wrong with using your voice to display your dissatisfaction with these policies. If you cannot deal in good faith, congrats to you. If you don't feel the most unpopular democratic candidate in history speaks to you, congrats to you.
Time to stop excusing everything Hillary does, and let her put on her big boy pants and show she is a leader for them, or tell them to fuck off of or just ignore them. Nothing wrong with all 3, though I'd give props to her for just saying her piece.
TL;DR - Pushing Hillary to the left, is not a vote for Trump. People threatening not to vote for Hillary is not something one should take a face value. It's not the responsibility for these protesters to care about Hillary having to be pragmatic. That is not their job. Their job is to say what they want and make themselves be heard.
Hillary is a bad candidate, but not bad enough to lose to Trump.
Then you're supporting Trump. End of story. You're okay with Trump being elected.
Just to be clear, Bernie is totally on board with Hillary now. You can expect him to give a big speech tomorrow about how important it is to vote for Hillary Clinton because the other guy is a Nazi.
Anybody who's still a Buster post-Bernie is either trying to destroy America or petulantly acting out and relying on actual adults to protect the country from their behavior.
balladofwindfishes
Member
The electoral college math isn't there
jack_package_200
Banned
Considering Trump polls at 0% with african americans and 12% with latinos, I don't think he has a shot.
Anyone with any kind of empathy towards their fellow man would not vote Trump. He represents the worst kind of bigotry.
Anyone with any kind of empathy towards their fellow man would not vote Trump. He represents the worst kind of bigotry.
They'll just be Bernie-or-bust and not vote - or vote third party, which still helps Trump.
Trump has every chance of winning. Especially if he flips rust belt states like Ohio.
What a load of dangerous nonsense. This displays a level of ignorance that is terrifying going into such a crucial election.
I fully understand the desire to push to the left and for a far more progressive political system. It needs a lot of reform. But we can fight for that in the years to come with Hillary in office, which may be far from idea but so much safer for liberal politics. Any progressive steps we've made in recent times will be eroded under a Trump presidency and possibly set back decades.
If you respect Bernie's platform and believe in his vision don't set any possibility of it being realised back decades by enabling that bigot. Please.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
This sounds about right.
The worst part is that they've formed a community within themselves to reinforce their insane, self-destructive beliefs. When you have 100 people telling you you're right to protest the candidate yours supports after falling out, then whatever you say to those people will simply fall to deaf ears
metalslimer
Member
Trump could win this election. It's important not to be complacent, but can people explain Donald's Trump's path to 270 with literally every minority overwhelmingly against him. You cannot win with the white vote. Another factor is that Hilary Clinton could actually lose the popular vote and still win the electoral college with the advantage the Dems have baked in
Trump can flip Ohio and PA but if the Latino vote overwhelmingly goes against him in NV and FL it doesn't matter. No one has put out a viable path to 270 for Trump that matches with the polls we currently have
Trump can flip Ohio and PA but if the Latino vote overwhelmingly goes against him in NV and FL it doesn't matter. No one has put out a viable path to 270 for Trump that matches with the polls we currently have
Melkezadek
Member
Off topic, but related. This was an interview Al Jazeera did with Noam Chomsky talking about both Sanders and Clinton. He talks about voting and what it means not to vote in the first 2:20 minutes. It illuminates what most people are trying to say here. It's a good interview if you wanna watch the whole thing. I respect his opinion on the matter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btJfkPBLULg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btJfkPBLULg
I feel like the only way you can make a statement like both sides being equally as bad is being a straight white male.
It must be nice being on Easy Mode.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
You say this, but do you recognize that the privilege and benefits you have are largely due to your ancestors who engaged in political extremism? The founding of the United States itself is an act of political extremism. The most divisive and meaningful legislation ever passed in the name of freedom and equality were an act of ideological extremism and uncompromising ideals.
What is the value in being condescending towards those who pushed for that monumental level of progress in the face of all this "sit down, progress is slow. maybe in 30 or 40 years".
Sometimes, the things that have really mattered came in sweeping commitments, ultimatums and resolutions.
There is room for both being a compromiser and relentlessly dedicated to convinctions. And you're not a demon for either. And you're not helping evil either way. It concerns me if the rhetoric is just that pulling a golden mead lets-meet-in-the-middle-on-everything-or-your-are-an-extremist-who-helps-nazis. That is just not fair.
I don't know. I just feel like a Bernie vote in spite of the presumptive nominee is incredibly short sighted to your interests even if your views do align more with his than with Clinton's. Maybe as a multi-faceted minority I'm used to compromising/ big picture mentality and feel like voting strategically against Trump is more important than voting in vain to make a statement.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
EVERY Bernie or Buster i've met, including friends, is exactly this, and incredibly immature. They really won't listen to reason. Bernie sincerely needs to emphasize just how important it is that they vote for Hillary instead of appealing to incredibly pointless idealism in the face of a white supremacist. We literally have an example of how that kinda shit is extremely dangerous in the same year as this election. It's called Brexit. Don't fuck around and waste your vote.
Progressives that are willing to lose a SCOTUS seat or 2 to make a point aren't progressives in my opinion.
So if someone says "i'm willing to let the house burn for 4 years" remind them that there is more at stake than the presidency. The SCOTUS wields an extreme amount of power.
So if someone says "i'm willing to let the house burn for 4 years" remind them that there is more at stake than the presidency. The SCOTUS wields an extreme amount of power.
The founding of the US was an incredibly delicate compromise, with many representatives of the continental congress being vehemently against separation. New York, for instance, was facing the full might of the British navy should they declare independence. Drastic and somewhat shady measures had to be undertaken in order to ensure a 13-0 vote, with representatives conveniently missing to protect their reputation and back room bargains struck between political opponents.
Just saying, politics is messy and has always been messy. The rose colored glasses of romanticized history can't change that.
There's a larger number of undecided voters in this election. For Trump to win, he would have to pull in 70 percent of white male voters. A larger undecided pool means statistically better chances.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/of-course-trump-can-win/
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/03/donald-trump-needs-7-of-10-white-guys-213699
BluePigGanon
Member
So much this.
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
Just be grateful that Bernie isn't Jeremy Corbyn.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
Right, but even predating that, the very act of usurping and scheming to go independent is an act of ideological extremism.
If Texas want to separate for the US that would also be an act of ideological extremism, even if a compromise would be made, just due to the nature of how serious and impactful such a law would be.
Agreed. Anyone who just brushes off the dangers of a conservative Supreme Court is... let's say painfully short-sighted, to put it politely.
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
did someone say embarrassing charizard?
live footage from the protest
CHARIZARD used MOOBS on self.
It's super effective!
Yes. Yes we will.
I can't wait to tell my children about what America used to be like before the end times.
To be fair, the only way those seats get filled is if Trump wins the election.
The Republicans will literally block SCOTUS appointments until time stops if that's what it takes to prevent a Liberal-leaning SCOTUS.
eBay Huckster
Member
with the chicken littling attitude everyone on the left seems to have, maybe
TheLaughingStock
Member
Some conservatives say similar things about a liberal Supreme Court. Inherently very dangerous. Can't wait until we find out who gets the court that votes the way they want.
call_kotaku
Member
I don't think those people would even disagree with you, I'm just pointing out that lashing out spitefully or grasping at conspiracy theories isn't necessarily an uncommon reaction, or even something that's specific to Bernie supporters. For people who have been involved in past election cycles (or for people who are perpetually slighted or ignored by the establishment) it does seem ridiculous to choose this candidate as your hill to die on, but I don't want to call Bernie or Nothing supporters self-serving or undemocratic just for lacking perspective.
He has a chance still. After everything he has said and done, he still had a chance which si crazy. But the Democrats were handed probably the easiest candidate they could win against. Had another more capable Republican, more moderate and a better orator been against Hillary, at this point I think she may have lost eventually. Which really speaks to how messed up this election is. People really don't want to vote for both candidates but are going to vote for the lesser of two evils between the two which is Hillary by all means.
Had Trump not alienated Hispanics and women so much, he could have won this as well. It says something that even white Republican women are struggling to want to support him.
SneakersSO
Member
No, I am not okay with Trump being elected. I am not okay with neither Hillary or Trump being elected. I'm not voting for him or her & instead am voting for a 3rd party.
Melkezadek
Member
The next president will be Hillary or Trump whether you like it or not.
You are throwing away your vote and making it easier for Trump to get elected.
balladofwindfishes
Member
One of those two will be your president. Do you want a choice in which one gets selected?
SneakersSO
Member
Its a sad state of affairs for us as a nation that its come down to one of those two possible outcomes.
I loathe the idea of either getting elected. I'll vote for someone I actually agree with. If either of them are going to win this thing, its going to be without my vote.
LUFTRAUSER
Banned
He might. Trump supporters seem to care way more about him winning than Democrats care about Hillary winning.
Melkezadek
Member
I don't disagree.
It's kinda funny that it's Kaine was also on Obama's VP short list. It's like 2008 leftovers.
Aaronology
Member
I am sorry you were not able to vote for your perfect candidate this election cycle. Which Presidents have you voted for in the past that completely aligned with your political views?
Yeah, well, we're here. You can keep living in dream land or wake up and help the country move towards your ideal instead of waiting for your perfect unicorn candidate to come along.
SneakersSO
Member
Gore, Kerry, Obama 2x (would love a 3rd).
President Obama wasn't perfect, but its much better than any of the potential incoming slate.
My problems with Hillary aren't so much her proposed positions (although I have a ton of thoughts on a few points on that), but rather things outside of the platform, and I also will not be voting for someone who is backing the TPP (Kaine is a staunch supporter, and while Hillary has flip flopped on this, I do think she'll sign it or something similar but with a different title once elected despite saying she wouldn't).
You say this as if either of these two candidates will make any significant steps towards placing the country in a far more ideal position.
Don't worry though - i'll be voting down-ticket democrat for every position on the ballot outside of POTUS this election.
Sneakers, if you're willing to see a judicial shiv stuck into your causes for the next few decades, then you don't really give a damn about 'em as much as you claim you do.
And no amount of rhetoric changes this.
I will laugh so hard if that happens. Trump as the leader of the free world. It's crazy. I am planning to move to a country less affected by trump actions coz he won't even know where to find it in a map
Move to Canada! Our wall won't happen until next election cycle.
Hillary will appoint liberal Supreme Court justices which will allow her (and future) Democratic policies hold up in court. Trump will not.
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