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Berserk |OT| - Big men, bigger swords, OFF THE BOAT - Berserk #344 24/6/2016

Being emphatic, having feelings etc doesn't make him not evil. It just makes him more complex and realistic evil villain. But he definitely is evil.

I think evil as someone who has malicious intents for every action he makes and for everyone that surrounds him. But maybe my definition is too narrow.

I do think that although he takes part in some horrific actions , he was not an horrific person.
 
I was talking about Griffith before the Occultation , Tricky I Shadow. He lives a life driven to one goal. But that doesn't mean he didn't cared for them. He saved Casca , he saved Guts , he saw young comrades of him die in battle and went to prostitute himself to feed them and give them more arms. They meant something for him.

It is actually necessary for him to be fond of them for the sacrifice , as stated to the Count. "The sacrificial offering to the ceremony is not just a mere lump of flesh and blood.It has to be very important and dear to your heart " It doesnt mean that he also didnt used them for his objective. That they were tools. But they meant something.

Without spoiling you anything , this is seen as a fragility by him , one which is brought up in a particular confrontation.

Very interesting....I didn't know that the sacrafice had to be very important and dear to your heart.
 

Subitai

Member
For anyone who hasn't seen it yet, Berserk: The Golden Age Arc I – The Egg of the King is up on Netflix now.
tumblr_nmaoggpkMZ1saehzfo1_540.jpg
Quoted for a new page.
 

Mumei

Member
Very interesting....I didn't know that the sacrifice had to be very important and dear to your heart.

Right. umop had a great post about this:

First it took him being psychologically destroyed, attempting suicide, and having his guilt manipulated by the Godhand, and he was still reluctant. Then Guts approaches him in his pitiful state, and his last bit of pride or self-preservation pushes him to fully reject his humanity to end his pain at having to confront himself. It wasn't even about his dream anymore, and I thought that that's made very clear by how everything happens. Obviously that doesn't make him a good person, though, but tragic yes.

Even in pursuit of his dream, a key part of understanding Griffith is that he's like a representation of Nietzsche's ubermensch. He's somehow more than even a giant in a peasant's body, and as would come with that (ultimately correct) self-assessment, he has a deep unconscious knowledge that he's meant to greatly influence the world. That conviction alone is enough to serve as the core of his personality and allow him to endure hardships that normal people would break under. It also makes him less than human in some cases, because he has to constantly have his gaze fixed on something abstract and intangible on the horizon which may or may not exist, so he's not really in touch with 'himself' apart from that. Then his entire former identity is dissolved, but he still has that unconscious knowledge of what he is or what he's meant for, now in a broken body and being entirely defeated by his circumstances. Realistically he has to give up on his dream, and he does. When it comes back it's in the form of desperation or having something to cling to to escape how pathetic he's made to feel. It's that he had humanity, but couldn't bear the pain of it, that drove him to make the sacrifice. It's extremely tragic.

His character is fatally flawed, but it's really not hard to understand why he does what he does, and the answer certainly isn't as simple as that he's just cold blooded. He both really is, and really isn't that.

I also don't think Griffith is nearly as compelling a figure if you approach him as someone who never really cared about the Band or Guts in particular. That said, it was his decision. The Count demonstrated in the opening chapters that it is possible to decide otherwise. But I think the decision was made by him running from his own humanity rather than out of a desire to see his dream made manifest.

I do think that Femto is most certainly evil, but I don't think that Griffith himself, even in his final moments, was motivated by avarice or will to power, but fear. I think his story has a very Greek tragic flaw (hamartia) ring to it, where the very thing that makes him special is also his downfall and the thing that makes him unable to face his own humanity.
 

Mael

Member
Right. umop had a great post about this:



I also don't think Griffith is nearly as compelling a figure if you approach him as someone who never really cared about the Band or Guts in particular. That said, it was his decision. The Count demonstrated in the opening chapters that it is possible to decide otherwise. But I think the decision was made by him running from his own humanity rather than out of a desire to see his dream made manifest.

I do think that Femto is most certainly evil, but I don't think that Griffith himself, even in his final moments, was motivated by avarice or will to power, but fear. I think his story has a very Greek tragic flaw (hamartia) ring to it, where the very thing that makes him special is also his downfall and the thing that makes him unable to face his own humanity.
If Griffith never cared about the band of the falcon, the sacrifice would have been pointless.
He did care about them but he cared about his dream more.
That's the whole thing of the behelit, he couldn't have sacrified something that he wasn't attached to.
That was shown with the count when he had to sacrifice his daughter to keep living, he offered Guts but he had no ties to him except for being the source of his suffering.
Griffith cared about the sacrified, Femto didn't.
 

Helmholtz

Member
Man, the discussions on this page about Griffith really remind me of how complex that character is. I think there are a lot of ways to interpret him.
I think it's interesting that before the eclipse happened, Griffith, in his mind at least, was trying to warn Guts to stay away.
I think there's no denying that the eclipse was evil. And it's the point where Griffith sacrificed any humanity he had left in order to achieve his dream. Before that he was certainly driven, willing to do a lot to get where he wanted to go. But nothing we were shown ever struck me as evil. The eclipse though, that was an act of pure evil and the point of no return. I find Griffith's return to his human body in recent manga chapters pretty interesting. It seems very hard to read; does he feel anything for the band at this point? The Rickert conversation seems to suggest he might.
Damn, I need to read the manga again!
 
Right. umop had a great post about this:



I also don't think Griffith is nearly as compelling a figure if you approach him as someone who never really cared about the Band or Guts in particular. That said, it was his decision. The Count demonstrated in the opening chapters that it is possible to decide otherwise. But I think the decision was made by him running from his own humanity rather than out of a desire to see his dream made manifest.

I do think that Femto is most certainly evil, but I don't think that Griffith himself, even in his final moments, was motivated by avarice or will to power, but fear. I think his story has a very Greek tragic flaw (hamartia) ring to it, where the very thing that makes him special is also his downfall and the thing that makes him unable to face his own humanity.

At the Eclipse, logically, you'd have to say 'well, we're all going to get killed anyway, might as well become Femto at this point." Can't imagine all those abominations would go "You know what, no pressure bro. We respect your decision and we'll let you guys go on your way. Good day, Sirs." lol might as well

I often wrestled with why Griffith threw away his dream after Guts left the group.

I used to think it was because Griffith came to realize how fragile his identity as the ubermensch was. A man he once dominated bested him in combat, but even moreso, he showed mercy in the duel when Griffith did not. Physical and moral superiority. Thus sending him into a bit of a frenzy to reassure his claim to the throne by fingerpopping Prince Charlotte. Certainly, these were the explicit reasons Griffith gave in the manga/show.

However, I came to see it more as a major blow to his only positive relationship... particularly with an adult male. That speech Griffith gives about what it takes to be his 'friend.' For a man who sees himself above all else, to say that his friend must be his equal is basically a proclamation that he has no friends. A miserably lonely guy. So when Guts bests him in combat to pursue his own dream (which he did simply out of his fondness and respect for Griffith), Griffith is forced to recognize Guts as his equal and thus only friend in the world. And Guts then subsequently walks out of his life presumably forever. So, in that moment maybe it's like he finally knew friendship and immediately lost it. Seems corny and a bit hamfisted, but maybe that's what drove Griffith to seek some kind of companionship from a devotee.

But still... Griffith was the hero who saved the Kingdom and had but only wait briefly for his prize. I've always been like "damn, just go rub one out and take a nap bro" knowing what would await him for his apparent attempt to usurp power in Midland. It is the only out of character thing Griffith really ever does, including his selfish actions during the Eclipse. I guess it was not fated to be.
 

Gun Animal

Member
To Berserk Aficionados, is it ok to watch the Berserk Movies and then continue the manga where the movies end, or should I read the manga from the beginning? For comparison, I didn't mind watching the first Hunger Games and then reading the rest of the books, despite changes like
Peeta's leg...
So small inconsistencies wouldn't bother me. I just want to know if there's any big, story defining events that I'm missing by skipping the Golden Age manga by watching the movies instead.
 

Moaradin

Member
Read from the beginning. The movies cut out a ton of shit, including some important stuff. I read the manga up to the end of the golden age saga before watching the anime and the movies. Watching the movies first would ruin a lot of the impact of cetain events without the proper buildup that the manga and to a lesser extent, the anime provides IMO.
 

Helmholtz

Member
To Berserk Aficionados, is it ok to watch the Berserk Movies and then continue the manga where the movies end, or should I read the manga from the beginning? For comparison, I didn't mind watching the first Hunger Games and then reading the rest of the books, despite changes like
Peeta's leg...
So small inconsistencies wouldn't bother me. I just want to know if there's any big, story defining events that I'm missing by skipping the Golden Age manga by watching the movies instead.
I haven't seen the movies, but I watched the Berserk anime first, then started the manga from the beginning.
The anime is very faithful to that one arc in the manga. I think the only thing you're missing is the introduction of a couple characters.
I'd personally recommend just starting the manga from the beginning, then maybe checking out the movies/anime after, since the manga is so well written and drawn, and you'd get 100% of the details that way. You'd also be seeing the events of the Golden Age the way the author intended.
 

Fjordson

Member
To Berserk Aficionados, is it ok to watch the Berserk Movies and then continue the manga where the movies end, or should I read the manga from the beginning? For comparison, I didn't mind watching the first Hunger Games and then reading the rest of the books, despite changes like
Peeta's leg...
So small inconsistencies wouldn't bother me. I just want to know if there's any big, story defining events that I'm missing by skipping the Golden Age manga by watching the movies instead.
I'm not an aficionado, but the manga is so awesome so far. I really wouldn't skip anything. And the Golden Age isn't even the beginning of the manga.
 

Gun Animal

Member
Thanks for the response. I'm already halfway into the second movie but I'll quit this and read through the manga first.

This is really making me want to play Dark Souls again... This time with a no-shield strength build, two handed greatsword for everything.
 
To Berserk Aficionados, is it ok to watch the Berserk Movies and then continue the manga where the movies end, or should I read the manga from the beginning? For comparison, I didn't mind watching the first Hunger Games and then reading the rest of the books, despite changes like
Peeta's leg...
So small inconsistencies wouldn't bother me. I just want to know if there's any big, story defining events that I'm missing by skipping the Golden Age manga by watching the movies instead.

This is a horrible idea. The movies/anime leave out so fucking much about the world and so many secondary characters that become crucial to the plot later on that you'll be lost.

I know it might feel like retreading ground, especially during the Band of the Hawk's arc, but there's enough different that you will get satisfaction from reading it.
 
So...when exactly was it said that the sacrafice had to be very important and dear to your heart? Unless I'm totally deaf I don't remember hearing anyone say that in the anime or the movies. I'm going to assume that it was said in the manga? If so that's a pretty massive detail to miss out for both the anime and the movies...
 
So...when exactly was it said that the sacrafice had to be very important and dear to your heart? Unless I'm totally deaf I don't remember hearing anyone say that in the anime or the movies. I'm going to assume that it was said in the manga? If so that's a pretty massive detail to miss out for both the anime and the movies...

Mang why haven't you read the manga???? Go read it. The anime and movies aren't shit.
 
Mang why haven't you read the manga???? Go read it. The anime and movies aren't shit.

Don't worry man, the first volume should be arriving in the mail any day now. I'm really looking forward to it!

I'm just scared that I might get completely hooked on it and have to pay a small fortune for all the volumes.
 
So...when exactly was it said that the sacrafice had to be very important and dear to your heart? Unless I'm totally deaf I don't remember hearing anyone say that in the anime or the movies. I'm going to assume that it was said in the manga? If so that's a pretty massive detail to miss out for both the anime and the movies...

You said you were already past the Golden Age...i thought you were reading the manga. Didnt want to spoil you man :)

It's in the first arc (manga). Which has no adaptation.
 
I just got the first book, and I'm already just about finished with it. :/

Ah manga....


I'm not sure why I didn't like it years ago. Maybe I was put off by the violence? Regardless, I'm liking it now. Puck is an interesting companion. How long does his comic-relief last (ignoring Golden Age)?
 

Houndi101

Member
I really don't know which is more agonizing to wait, this or A Song of Ice and Fire...
Atleast ASoIaF characters haven't been on a boat for 10 years...
 

Hypron

Member
I just got the first book, and I'm already just about finished with it. :/

Ah manga....


I'm not sure why I didn't like it years ago. Maybe I was put off by the violence? Regardless, I'm liking it now. Puck is an interesting companion. How long does his comic-relief last (ignoring Golden Age)?

It's still going...
 

Tizoc

Member
I wonder if there is a figure of Guts on a boat...I mean we got dead Yamcha figure, might as well go all the way, Japan!
 

Azuran

Banned
It doesn't really bother me, but it was unexpected based on what I know about the series.

There's plenty of comic relief characters in Berserk but most of them are either left out of the anime/movies or haven't been adapted yet, which gives people who haven't read the manga the wrong impressions that it's nothing but dark and gritty all the time.
 

Coconut

Banned
There's plenty of comic relief characters in Berserk but most of them are either left out of the anime/movies or haven't been adapted yet, which gives people who haven't read the manga the wrong impressions that it's nothing but dark and gritty all the time.

I'd say that's the only thing the animes has going for it. When you have women getting raped juxtaposed with puck talking about elf dimension fighting style it reminds me of what I hate about anime and Manga.
 

Siegcram

Member
Did you pay launch price for the Berserker Armor? I recently nearly pulled the trigger on one for 180€, but couldn't do it.
 

LaneDS

Member
Spent $120 last year on one and don't regret it at all. Even the girlfriend who normally can't stand shit like that remarked that it was pretty cool.
 

Fjordson

Member
Anyone have this one? http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BS3XXD4/?tag=neogaf0e-20

Not as badass as the Berserk armor one, but still pretty neat since it's from the Golden Age arc.

Also, I remember seeing some reviews on Goodreads from people complaining about the "flashback" (Golden Age) arc being way too long. Just blows my mind now that I'm almost done. It's amazing and seems absolutely pivotal to the series.
 
Anyone have this one? http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BS3XXD4/?tag=neogaf0e-20

Not as badass as the Berserk armor one, but still pretty neat since it's from the Golden Age arc.

Also, I remember seeing some reviews on Goodreads from people complaining about the "flashback" (Golden Age) arc being way too long. Just blows my mind now that I'm almost done. It's amazing and seems absolutely pivotal to the series.

I have that one! I like it, I've got it in the pose in picture 5.
 
Anyone have this one? http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BS3XXD4/?tag=neogaf0e-20

Not as badass as the Berserk armor one, but still pretty neat since it's from the Golden Age arc.

Also, I remember seeing some reviews on Goodreads from people complaining about the "flashback" (Golden Age) arc being way too long. Just blows my mind now that I'm almost done. It's amazing and seems absolutely pivotal to the series.

Yeah, like I said I have all the Figmas, that's the cheapest Guts you can get from Figma and the easier to find too. not a bad figure at all.
 

mcz117chief

Member
I forgot to show you, guys, what I recently got. BEHOLD !

JwkYV9c.jpg


It is 1:1 to the original sword. Me and a fellow blacksmith worked on this project for quite a while, we used dozens of pictures from the Manga to make is as close to the original as possible and we did get there :)

It is forged to my height, so 186cm long, from a hardened steel plate and I made the sheath myself.
Oh yeah, and the hilt and such are all full, no hollow spaces
 

RangerBAD

Member
I forgot to show you, guys, what I recently got. BEHOLD !

JwkYV9c.jpg


It is 1:1 to the original sword. Me and a fellow blacksmith worked on this project for quite a while, we used dozens of pictures from the Manga to make is as close to the original as possible and we did get there :)

It is forged to my height, so 186cm long, from a hardened steel plate and I made the sheath myself.
Oh yeah, and the hilt and such are all full, no hollow spaces

Obligatory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nwh8yWh5WU
 

Zolo

Member
Honestly, I've never really found Puck to be all that funny or anything, but I think his presence is welcome considering how absolutely dark the series becomes post-eclipse.

Yeah. This is the same with me. Puck isn't funny to me, but it's nice to have him around when everything else around Guts is so awful.
 

Azuran

Banned
Yeah. This is the same with me. Puck isn't funny to me, but it's nice to have him around when everything else around Guts is so awful.

I find Puck hilarious. This panel will always crack me up no matter what:

puckultimatestrongone.jpg


His presence is just a breath of fresh air after all the killing and raping that goes on. That one happened right after the Rosine battle which was a pretty dark arc, so I just can't help but smile after everything that happened. It also led to the moment when Guts finally accepted Puck as his friend and companion which as good heartwarming moment in a manga like Berserk.
 

Fjordson

Member
Yeah, I like Puck. His dialogue isn't usually terribly funny, but he lightens things up. And some of the expressions Miura gives him are funny. Like what Azuran posted.
 

Mumei

Member
I find Puck hilarious. This panel will always crack me up no matter what:

puckultimatestrongone.jpg


His presence is just a breath of fresh air after all the killing and raping that goes on. That one happened right after the Rosine battle which was a pretty dark arc, so I just can't help but smile after everything that happened. It also led to the moment when Guts finally accepted Puck as his friend and companion which as good heartwarming moment in a manga like Berserk.

My favorite Puck moment is the bit about Betchi and cheese.
 
People really have no clue how much Puck and the new crew's team dynamic have helped Guts. I feel like the black swordsman is just a small part of the sum total that is Guts and it's honestly the most boring part to me if it's not a source of conflict like it has become later in the manga. His shining moment as the Black Swordsman must have been the Rosine arc (which was hardcore and amazing), but I've really enjoyed Guts as a leader and guardian because it has taken effort to grow into it. Guts is at his most natural as a Berserker and while it may be fun to watching monsters getting obliterated, it's predictable and too safe for his character.
You are being generous because you are filling in the blanks :)

I think i wrote this somewhere else , but Guts is depicted as a prick who follows the Band as a puppy because he lost to Griffith, He is stripped of any dignity.

He actually follows the Band in the raid (Griffith immediately sees his importance as a warrior) but he starts to get affectioned to them. After living such a lonely life , the camaraderie he encounters is extremely important to Guts . Him being accepted is a huge turn in his life , yet the movie skips that.
I don't know about that. I felt like a switch in my head was flipping every twenty minutes or so from missed details and situations even if I didn't remember what they were. It was kind of disappointing, but I pushed it into the back of my mind to try and enjoy some actual animated Berserk.

Guts was definitely stripped down to a bare minimum and I thought I did a good job of articulating that. This movie could have used an extra 15 minutes of material to make Guts and the Band of the Hawk shine.
I find Puck hilarious. This panel will always crack me up no matter what:

His presence is just a breath of fresh air after all the killing and raping that goes on. That one happened right after the Rosine battle which was a pretty dark arc, so I just can't help but smile after everything that happened. It also led to the moment when Guts finally accepted Puck as his friend and companion which as good heartwarming moment in a manga like Berserk.
Agreed

That scene is tied with him sitting on top of Magnifico's head to me when it comes to laughs. Puck really needs a better role to play in all of this, though. Part of me hopes he is the
Elf King's son
and he ran to get away from the lavish lifestyle. That would be freaking hilarious and it might open up a new avenue power-wise.
 
I agree, yours is better. Looks 1:1 like the real thing, unlike theirs.

Wish someone would make a 1:1 full size Dragonslayer, everyone always shortens it (just like the Man at Arms example compared to yours). I don't care if it would be impossible to use as a sword, the one in the damn manga's impossible to use unless you're Guts. I just want to see it.
 
I probably should buy two to three volumes at a time, because of how quickly I just got through the first. I did enjoy it, though.

Too bad I didn't like it in college. I could have gotten into the series much sooner.
 
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