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[PHOENIXZERO]

Jimmy Jimmy Jimmy... *Shakes head*.

 

[Corpekata]

Was there any hint that she was purposely lying? I didn't get that impression

There isn't. People suggesting she was are acting like she also watched Breaking Bad. Her "manipulation" only would make sense if she had the same omnipotent knowledge the viewer does of his character and fate.

 

[Grinchy]

Was there any hint that she was purposely lying? I didn't get that impression

I was surprised when a single person had that impression, but there are so many people thinking it. I don't know where people are getting this weird illogical idea from.

So, her plan was to act like she heard gunshots because that would somehow get Mike to buy her a new house? That plan doesn't make any sense. People actually think that this is the plot that's taking place?

 

[Always-honest]

Didn't think season one was really great (good enough though) but i'm really loving season two so far.

 

[UrbanRats]

It's not idiotic or unrealistic for him to protect his firm's reputation over the case.

For a partner, this is just one of many cases, and winning it is not worth even a slight dent to their brand. For Jimmy, and the viewer, this case is everything. He wouldn't be able to reason with his boss because his boss would have legitimate reasons for not wanting to air the ad.

Right, but that's my point, the ad was so completely vanilla and inoffensive, that there was little reason to worry.
But perhaps they'll prove me wrong in the next episode.

Maybe they would've objected to the tackyness, i guess.

 

[Madouu]

Right, but that's my point, the ad was so completely vanilla and inoffensive, that there was little reason to worry.
But perhaps they'll prove me wrong in the next episode.

Maybe they would've objected to the tackyness, i guess.

I believe the partners haven't seen the ad yet.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Mike being "manipulated", lol

She's traumatized and it broke Mike's heart. He's trying to help the only way he knows how.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

Dammit Jimmy, you're slipping.

 

[Optimusdouche]

Liking this season much more than the first, but I still feel it's very ill conceived.

Anytime you have to work backwards in such a manner, you are painting yourself into a corner what you can do, narratively speaking.

It will always be about how Saul becomes Saul. There's no room for it to surprise or get better. And at times it barely even fits. It doesn't make sense why he is so gung ho about bending and breaking the rules. Saul has to become this dirtbag small time lawyer, but it doesn't feel natural at all, this journey they are contorting him into.

And this is always the problem. Prequels such as these always require twisting characters and plots into things that don't really fit.

 

[pj]

I was surprised when a single person had that impression, but there are so many people thinking it. I don't know where people are getting this weird illogical idea from.

So, her plan was to act like she heard gunshots because that would somehow get Mike to buy her a new house? That plan doesn't make any sense. People actually think that this is the plot that's taking place?

That's exactly the impression I got. How is it an illogical plan if it worked?

She's clearly lying because mike was outside all night. "it wasn't there before", "i heard them at exactly 2:13", she didn't call the cops, she didn't want him to stay the night because she knew nothing would happen.

What is the point of showing mike being out there all night with nothing happening if not to show us that she's making it up?

Honestly I don't see how you could come to any other conclusion

 

[-griffy-]

That's exactly the impression I got. How is it an illogical plan if it worked?

She's clearly lying because mike was outside all night. "it wasn't there before", "i heard them at exactly 2:13", she didn't call the cops, she didn't want him to stay the night because she knew nothing would happen.

What is the point of showing mike being out there all night with nothing happening if not to show us that she's making it up?

Honestly I don't see how you could come to any other conclusion

I think you're assuming she is maliciously making it up, whereas she might actually believe she heard a gunshot and the mark on the garage is from a bullet because she's scared and paranoid. She probably heard some innocuous sound at 2am and freaked out, then went outside and found some mark that was already there and deduced wrongly that it is a bullet hole.

 

[Veelk]

That's exactly the impression I got. How is it an illogical plan if it worked?

She's clearly lying because mike was outside all night. "it wasn't there before", "i heard them at exactly 2:13", she didn't call the cops, she didn't want him to stay the night because she knew nothing would happen.

What is the point of showing mike being out there all night with nothing happening if not to show us that she's making it up?

Honestly I don't see how you could come to any other conclusion

There is clearly something not adding up here, but that would imply not only a certain degree of malice toward a loving figure in her life, something she hasn't shown before, centered around a truly stupid sounding plan of "pretty to hear gunshots, get new house"

I'm not gonna say it lies outside the realm of possibility, same with how no one saw chuck's real feelings toward Jimmy coming despite the clues. However, with this character, all we know is that she loved Mike's son, is affectionate enough with him to call him pop occasionally, and he has been going out on limbs for her already.

Why this doesn't add up is something that will be answered soon enough, but it doesn't really jive with the limited characterization she's been given thus far. More likely, it seems to me, some kind of stressor is making her see things that aren't there. She's always come across as a bit neurotic to me, personally. So my guess is that she's losing it. She seemed genuinely worried atleast.

Besides, if nothing else, she knows Mike well enough to know he'll be there for her (or his granddaughter at least) regardless of the cost. She doesn't NEED to scheme him. She could go walk up to him with something as simple as "I need a better house" and from there he'd work as needed to achieve this.

 

[pj]

I think you're assuming she is maliciously making it up, whereas she might actually believe she heard a gunshot and the mark on the garage is from a bullet because she's scared and paranoid. She probably heard some innocuous sound at 2am and freaked out, then went outside and found some mark that was already there and deduced wrongly that it is a bullet hole.

The way she acted when she first told him about it seemed like she was hiding something. Why so against him staying if she's that scared?

The way she just turned around and left after he said "i'll get you out of here" was weird. No thank you? No hug?

The way she was adamant about the chipped plaster being new was weird.

Either way it probably doesn't matter since it doesn't seem like he's going to confront her about it, unless she does something like that again. I just don't think it's crazy to not take her actions at face value.

 

[Optimusdouche]

I think the scene is meant to show us Mikes devotion to her and the kid.

Obviously, she is being paranoid. She's not trying to scam Mike, otherwise, Mike would've known immediately.

He could've let her know she is wrong, because he was there all night, and that it was probably just the newspaper, and that it's her trauma and memories linked to the house manifesting itself, but since he is so devoted, he would rather set her at ease by not telling her this and just moving her.

 

[PantherLotus]

Whether or not the daughter-in-law is manipulating Mike or just succumbing to post traumatic stress is unclear, but the show certainly wants us to think that Mike doesn't care either way ... because of his own guilt for what happened to his son.

 

[pj]

There is clearly something not adding up here, but that would imply not only a certain degree of malice toward a loving figure in her life, something she hasn't shown before, centered around a truly stupid sounding plan of "pretty to hear gunshots, get new house"

I'm not gonna say it lies outside the realm of possibility, same with how no one saw chuck's real feelings toward Jimmy coming despite the clues. However, with this character, all we know is that she loved Mike's son, is affectionate enough with him to call him pop occasionally, and he has been going out on limbs for her already.

Why this doesn't add up is something that will be answered soon enough, but it doesn't really jive with the limited characterization she's been given thus far. More likely, it seems to me, some kind of stressor is making her see things that aren't there. She's always come across as a bit neurotic to me, personally. So my guess is that she's losing it. She seemed genuinely worried atleast.

Besides, if nothing else, she knows Mike well enough to know he'll be there for her (or his granddaughter at least) regardless of the cost. She doesn't NEED to scheme him. She could go walk up to him with something as simple as "I need a better house" and from there he'd work as needed to achieve this.

Her character hasn't done much so far, I agree. A lot of people didn't pick up on these "clues" so they may be laying the groundwork for more obvious things later.

Like you said she's neurotic and stressed, so taking the rational path of just asking Mike to move may not have occurred to her.

I don't doubt she's genuinely worried. She may have even heard gun shots the first two times, but I do not believe she heard or even thinks she heard them the third time.

 

[Niraj]

I think she is. She's paranoid. The house reminds her of her dead husband who died because he wasn't a crooked enough cop. She's probably just scared that whoever killed her husband might come back someday to finish off her or her daughter.

I think that to her, being in that house makes her a target. And Mike can see all of that. So he feels like if he can get her out of there, she'll stop feeling so paranoid. And of course he feels like his son's death is his fault, so he's responsible for his son's wife's well-being.

I agree with you mostly, but she already knows her husband's killers won't be coming back. That was the tail end of the conversation she and Mike had last season. "You know what happened. The question is, can you live with it?"

 

[UrbanRats]

I believe the partners haven't seen the ad yet.

For the sake of argument, i was treating boss and partners as one entity.

Mike being "manipulated", lol

She's traumatized and it broke Mike's heart. He's trying to help the only way he knows how.

I agree, she wasn't being malicious at all, imo.

 

[rekameohs]

The point is that his law farm would have had something against it. Recall the earlier scene where a blue swirl was enough to cause the partners concern.

Not to mention that ads, especially for law firms, especially need to be scrutinized very closely to make sure that everything is up to standard. I don't think Jimmy showed anywhere in the ad that the woman was a paid actress, not an actual Sandpiper resident (notice how real ads do this). Nor does he mention that she was actually a past client of his before him working at Davis & Main.

There's a whole can of worms that could be opened that could jeopardize the integrity of the whole firm if they don't closely scrutinize how they advertise, and the partners would certainly not like that being done on just one case. This case may be Jimmy's entire life, but for Cliff, it's just one of several, and he doesn't want his firm's reputation threatened by some hotshot upstart. If it's not this ad, it might be something else. That's why Cliff is furious.

Of course, Jimmy did indeed solicit clients in the first scene (by paying off the driver). Just wait till the partners find out about that.

 

[UrbanRats]

Not to mention that ads, especially for law firms, especially need to be scrutinized very closely to make sure that everything is up to standard. I don't think Jimmy showed anywhere in the ad that the woman was a paid actress, not an actual Sandpiper resident (notice how real ads do this). Nor does he mention that she was actually a past client of his before him working at Davis & Main.

All the more reason why Jimmy's decision was stupid.
And those changes are minuscule from a visual standpoint, yet massive on a technical level.

 

[Vlad]

It's true that Walt's hands were tied, but there's a scene earlier on where they're talking in a bar and Walt's trying to get Mike to help him kill Gus, which was before he had his sights set on killing Hank, who only became a danger because Walt drunkenly encouraged him to keep the investigation going rather than closing the book with Gale being Heisenberg. There were loads of careless mistakes Walt made because of his pride, even if he was justified in saving Jesse by killing the dealers.

If I'm remembering the BB timeline correctly, that scene in the bar was right after Gus tried to have Walt and Jesse killed and killed Victor off. As fas as Walt knew, Gus was in the market for another cook and would still have gotten rid of Walt at the earliest opportunity. I can't fault him at all for not wanting to risk his life on the possibility that Gus was willing to let bygones be bygones, especially after the whole boxcutter+Victor incident. And yes, Walt's drunken bragging was what got Hank back on Gus' trail, but there's no way Gus could have known that.

I think she is. She's paranoid. The house reminds her of her dead husband who died because he wasn't a crooked enough cop. She's probably just scared that whoever killed her husband might come back someday to finish off her or her daughter.

Why would that house remind her of her husband? Wouldn't they both have been living in Philadelphia until his death, and she moved to Albuquerque afterwards?

 

[Alpende]

I don't think Mike is being manipulated. I got the feeling he knows her story is bullshit/shifty. He just wants to help out and doesn't need to be manipulated.

 

[Klocker]

I don't think Mike is being manipulated. I got the feeling he knows her story is bullshit/shifty. He just wants to help out and doesn't need to be manipulated.

we are not saying mike is being manipulated, Mike knows shes playing him to a degree he just doesn't care because he wants to help and knows it is not a good situation for his grand daughter

But that does not preclude her from wanting out of that neighborhood and making some shit up to get Mike to act.

 

[Corpekata]

Why are people getting the idea she is trying to get Mike to act in the sense of getting her a new house exactly?

Mike works as a toll booth operator. He is not the character from Breaking Bad yet, he's far from it. She probably makes more money than he does. To go from him giving her some money to help with living expenses to attempting to finagle a piece of real estate from him is going for 0 to 60 in a split second. It makes no sense for her to have these expectations of him at this point in the story.

 

[Klocker]

She knows Mike was a dirty cop and he shows up with envelopes stuffed with money so in her mind there could be plenty more where that came from.

So why could both not be true, that shes is scared, paranoid living there and that she is trying to appeal to Mike's concern for them (by making up or exaggerating a story) to take even better care of her and her daughter?

I have an easier time believing that, then just that she's straight up bat shit crazy. But maybe she is nuts?

 

[EdibleExplosives]

I didn't think for one second she was manipulating Mike. She's just traumatized from her husband's death.

 

[Leunam]

She knows Mike was a dirty cop and he shows up with envelopes stuffed with money so in her mind there could be plenty more where that came from.

So why could both not be true, that shes is scared, paranoid living there and that she is trying to appeal to Mike's concern for them (by making up or exaggerating a story) to take even better care of her and her daughter?

I have an easier time believing that, then just that she's straight up bat shit crazy. But maybe she is nuts?

She probably assumes the money comes from some other form of non-criminal side work. If she knew where it came from, especially knowing how Mike was involved in her husbands death, she would likely only want to distance herself even further to protect her daughter.

 

[pj]

Why are people getting the idea she is trying to get Mike to act in the sense of getting her a new house exactly?

Mike works as a toll booth operator. He is not the character from Breaking Bad yet, he's far from it. She probably makes more money than he does. To go from him giving her some money to help with living expenses to attempting to finagle a piece of real estate from him is going for 0 to 60 in a split second. It makes no sense for her to have these expectations of him at this point in the story.

I don't think he's literally going to buy her a house (at this point anyway), but he will up his contributions to allow her to rent a place in a better neighborhood.

Like Klocker said, she gets cash in an envelop every week. Why wouldn't she think it's possible to get a little more for herself?

I've watched too much TV to believe this lady is just a scared traumatized widowed single mother who's innocently imagining gun shots all the time.

 

[adj_noun]

I didn't think for one second she was manipulating Mike. She's just traumatized from her husband's death.

Basically, yeah.

 

[Alpende]

we are not saying mike is being manipulated, Mike knows shes playing him to a degree he just doesn't care because he wants to help and knows it is not a good situation for his grand daughter

But that does not preclude her from wanting out of that neighborhood and making some shit up to get Mike to act.

I see. Thanks for clearing it up

 

[GeeTeeCee]

I didn't think for one second she was manipulating Mike. She's just traumatized from her husband's death.

I agree with this.

In fact, I'd argue that it was Mike who did a teensy bit of manipulating. He knew there was no threat, but chose not reveal this in order to ensure that his granddaughter gets to live with him. I'm probably wrong on this, but it was what I took away from the episode.

 

[Sami+]

Really loving this season so far.

Can't say I agree with Mike's daughter in law playing him like some seem to think. I think it's just trauma.

 

[Veelk]

She may have even heard gun shots the first two times, but I do not believe she heard or even thinks she heard them the third time.

That makes even less sense. She is paranoid enough to delude herself into believing it the first two times, but this time is somehow arbitrarily cured because Mike stayed out that night (while not knowing that he did) and is just suddenly lying because.....why?

We have evidence for neuroticism. We have zero evidence for any level of malice to Mike, and plenty of evidence for the opposite. Again, it's possible, but your argument makes little sense to me. She faking fear of gunshots, which she may have genuinely panicked about before, in order to hussle a house out of Mike, whom is already helping her and as far as she knows doesn't have that kind of cash on him? She's not even the one who suggested moving out, that's was all Mike.

She's neurotic enough to lead to legitimate delusions, but enough of a masterful manipulator to play mike into a barely related response (what if he just got her some body guards? what if the only house he can get is shittier than what she has now or a hotel?) that she has no reason to think he's capable of delivering out of some kind of malice that, unless you have something to add, is entirely without cause to the one man who has been taking care of her up until now?

Why would she want a new home in the first place? She wants to leave because she feels threatened, but she's got a nice place otherwise. Why does she suddenly, unreasonably, want a whole new frikken house?

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

It's a fact that she lied to Mike. With that said, it doesn't mean she did it maliciously. She put him in a position where he basically had to help her out though. Either he calls her out on the lie/paranoia and pisses her off and then he may lose her and his grandkid. Or he gives into it and moves them in.

I don't buy that her paranoia was so strong that she knew the exact time and was 100% sure it wasn't there before and all that. She was spinning a story that wasn't true based on feelings that she's really making up. Again, she might not be doing on purpose but she's doing it.

 

[STILLethal]

Didn't like the part where Jimmy doesn't check with the boss about the commercial he made, any sane human who was in that position would check with their boss if it would be allowed or not.
I mean you got this amazing job, apartment, car, paycheck, woman you're seeing, and you give it up for that?
Makes no sense.
Now I know what Chuck means "To bear witness"....to bear witness to his downfall.
But still love the show and think Saul really wants to help people - but some of the things he does just make no sense..

 

[Veelk]

It's a fact that she lied to Mike. With that said, it doesn't mean she did it maliciously. She put him in a position where he basically had to help her out though. Either he calls her out on the lie/paranoia and pisses her off and then he may lose her and his grandkid. Or he gives into it and moves them in.

I don't buy that her paranoia was so strong that she knew the exact time and was 100% sure it wasn't there before and all that. She was spinning a story that wasn't true based on feelings that she's really making up. Again, she might not be doing on purpose but she's doing it.

You cannot lie on accident. Her information may be wrong, but that doesn't make it a lie. And again, why does she feel the need to lie in the first place? The one secret Mike kept in season 1 aside, they seem really close. Even if she suddenly became unreasonably demanding of mike, she should know she doesn't have to lie to get him to help her. She can literally ask for the moon from him, and he wouldn't be able to say no to her.

 

[SouSouRocket]

Why is sending people mailers not solicitation, btw? And a commercial isn't either?

I didn't think I saw anyone answer this so to take us back a few pages--they really just aren't as long as they follow the rules. The ethical rules are rather specific about solicitation and what's permissible in advertisements, for example one of the things you have to do is slap "attorney advertisement" on your mailers. Commercials are something we're all used to so it's maybe a bit easier to separate those out, but it's also important to note the ethical rules have only fairly recently allowed lawyers to advertise.

I think the idea is that attorneys can be very intimidating and persuasive and talking to an attorney in person is just too risky from an ethical perspective to allow without some really strict rules governing it. You see how Jimmy can talk his way into just about anything.

 

[ZangBa]

My first impression was that the mother was traumatized or going nuts, but then I remembered how adamant she was about Mike not staying there, which leads me to believe she isn't crazy and is actually purposefully lying to him.

I also didn't like how Jimmy didn't go his boss first with the ad. Even for his character, it just doesn't make logical sense to me. Does he just want someone to respond to his antics positively for once? I don't really get it.

 

[Cornballer]

Regarding his daughter-in-law: I didn't get the impression that there was anything nefarious behind her actions (i.e. that she just wants the money for a better place solely because she knows Mike will spring for it.) She seems genuinely distressed about the gunshots. There's perhaps some additional pressure or stress coming from somewhere else, but I didn't take it as a manipulative act.



Onion A|V club's Polite Fight:

- A single camera move can tell a story on Better Call Saul

Though this week’s Polite Fight begins with a discussion about Kim’s characterization in “Amarillo,” prompted by a comment from Tobias Lehigh Nagy, it soon evolves into a contentious philosophical discussion between Gus and John. John presents Gus with a small detail he’s noticed—the appearance of the number “3” in scenes between Jimmy and Kim—and talks about it in terms of the characters’ relationship (a theory John first advanced on a DVR Club video last year). Gus can’t help playing devil’s advocate, setting up an argument about the distinction (or lack thereof) between analysis and interpretation.

From there, our hosts move on to examine some of the subtler touches in “Amarillo” that use the language of cinema to articulate Jimmy’s state of mind. John also expands on an observation he made in our recent inventory of great TV credit sequences, noting a small but potentially significant change to the credit sequences in the second season.

 

[Delicious Waffles]

I'm joining the "she's manipulating Mike" camp.

I feel she is mainly from earlier in the episode when she was making her daughter dinner and Mike gives her that envelope full of cash. She was very nonchalant about it, which immediately (if I remember correctly) led to her bringing up the "gunshots." To me, that struck me as odd, like a "oh thanks.. but let me tell you about this!" Mike should've said something once he found out what the "gunshots" truly were but, even if he did, I think she'd still be pressing to get out of the neighborhood and since he's providing her money, she'd try to squeeze something more out of him.

 

[Dr Prob]

I'm joining the "she's manipulating Mike" camp.

I feel she is mainly from earlier in the episode when she was making her daughter dinner and Mike gives her that envelope full of cash. She was very nonchalant about it, which immediately (if I remember correctly) led to her bringing up the "gunshots." To me, that struck me as odd, like a "oh thanks.. but let me tell you about this!" Mike should've said something once he found out what the "gunshots" truly were but, even if he did, I think she'd still be pressing to get out of the neighborhood and since he's providing her money, she'd try to squeeze something more out of him.

I think you're remembering incorrectly, Waffles! It was actually reversed, where Mike sensed something was wrong, she was resistant to talking about it, then he proceeded to draw it out of her.

 

[Delicious Waffles]

I think you're remembering incorrectly, Waffles! It was actually reversed, where Mike sensed something was wrong, she was resistant to talking about it, then he proceeded to draw it out of her.

Oh. Well then. I stand corrected. :X

 

[PepperedHam]

Liking this season much more than the first, but I still feel it's very ill conceived.

Anytime you have to work backwards in such a manner, you are painting yourself into a corner what you can do, narratively speaking.

It will always be about how Saul becomes Saul. There's no room for it to surprise or get better. And at times it barely even fits. It doesn't make sense why he is so gung ho about bending and breaking the rules. Saul has to become this dirtbag small time lawyer, but it doesn't feel natural at all, this journey they are contorting him into.

And this is always the problem. Prequels such as these always require twisting characters and plots into things that don't really fit.

But we know why Jimmy likes to do things the way he does them. He is a master at doing things his own way, and when he does things his own way he gets results no one else can. We saw this with how manipulative he can be when he's scamming people and now with how well he's getting results as a lawyer. But he knows these methods won't hold up to the higher ups so he goes behind their backs. He knows doing things the boring way isn't going to get results, and you can tell when only one person responded to their mailer, he had to go and solicit the folks on the bus because the boring by the books way just wasn't working.

We understand why he does these things because he's been set up as a guy who plays by his own rules since the beginning.

 

[Fry]

Man, I LOVE this show. Saul is such a GREAT character.

Thank you so much Vince.

 

[Permanently A]

Man... Chuck is going to be at that meeting to watch the video...

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Man... Chuck is going to be at that meeting to watch the video...

He's gonna have a heart attack when everyone loves it.

 

[ezekial45]

Man... Chuck is going to be at that meeting to watch the video...

He's gonna have a heart attack when everyone loves it.

He still has the 'disability', so probably not.

 

[minor effort]

Man... Chuck is going to be at that meeting to watch the video...

Not if there's a TV on. It'll take like ten spacesuits for him to withstand all that electromagnetic activity.

 

[JoeNut]

He's gonna have a heart attack when everyone loves it.

I don't think they're gonna love it, I think he'll get a bollocking for targeting sandpiper, I'm sure in the video it actually said "if you go to sandpiper" and surely that's illegal?

 

[Corpekata]

I don't think Chuck'll factor in. Ed Begley Jr was calling in his partners, not the entire staff on the case.

I imagine they'll be using the story just to show Saul further chafing at the corporate restrictions and lifestyle. It can't all just go back to Chuck, it'll get tiresome.