-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Better Call Saul S3 |OT| Gus Who's Back - Mondays 10/9c on AMC
- Thread starter TheOddOne
- Start date
Well, he is right that Jimmy only seems to be able to hurt people. Jimmy himself expressed this sentiment in this very episode. He cannot create, he can only destroy.
He just happened to turn that talent toward a positive and self sacrificial end. What he destroyed was his relationship with the elderly. And he did hurt them... They believed he was their friend, so to hear him say the things he said about them was hurtful.
It's just that in those ruins, something positive was able to come forth.
But I do disagree completely that Jimmy can be considered culpable for Chuck's suicide. His actions caused stuff to happen which in turn other people to act a certain way, which in turn put Chuck where he was, but kind of 3rd, 4th, nth degree of responsibility can only be seen in hindsight from an omniscient point of view. It's not something anyone can actually control and be responsible for.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Because they knew they were being played too.
I think you were supposed to see Jimmy burning his scam by exposing himself to the seniors as a redemptive moment, and I don't think it's coincidental that we see Chuck die soon after.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
You're reaching. You're trying to find a reason for Chuck's suicide other than he was simply mentally ill.
The whole point of the Irene thing was proving Chuck wrong. Jimmy isn't responsible for Chuck killing himself, Chuck went insane because of his mental illness and refusing to get help. The foreshadowing had been there for a long time.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
The point of that sequence was to make the audience feel good for the main character and then horrified at an event that the main character not only has no control over but does not even know about.
It was not Jimmy's Walter White moment. This isn't Breaking Bad.
RecRoulette
Member
The scene with Chuck destroying the house with the music was so goddamn amazing. A haunting, miserable scene. And Jesus that last scene, godspeed Chuck. McKean better get a goddamn Emmy.
Also, Gus knows what Nacho did. He saw Nacho give the paramedic an almost full bottle of pills.
Also, Gus knows what Nacho did. He saw Nacho give the paramedic an almost full bottle of pills.
Well, they didn't seem to really give a damn before Jimmy mentioned it lol! Guess they will renege on it just to get revenge xP
What's also kinda dumb about Jimmy's confession is that he could've made himself seem so much more sympathetic, ala: "My brother took my job! I can't pay my bills, my girlfriend thinks I'm a failure, we were thinking of maybe starting a family (stretching the truth there but whatever) but now that's impossible etcetera, I did the wrong thing for all the right reason etcetera." The old ladies would still be angry but would maybe have an "Oh Jimmy, you should've told us, we don't need the money but we'll still settle just to help you" attitude
DeadFrom Reddit:
Well....he technically proved him right. Jimmy did, as seemingly always, what Chuck said he would. He hurt people. He picked a target and left it in ruins to get something he wanted.
What Jimmy rejected was Chuck's invitation to become a full monster, uncaring of the consequences he had. Chuck invited Jimmy to live a life of no regrets, and Jimmy said fuck you to that. That's why he took his powers of destruction and directed them toward himself.
It's just odd. Chuck is always right about Jimmy, atleast in the things he objectively does. But for those things, he wants Jimmy to be the bad guy, and he often is. But Jimmy doesn't want to fill that role, even if he often does because that's just what he's good at.
But I do agree that Jimmy's not responsible for Chuck's death. See my edit for that reasoning.
No he isn't. "He always destroys" is simply wrong, and by saying what he did to salvage the Irene thing was just more destruction you're willfully ignoring what that was about to fit a narrative. The point with Chuck is that he only saw one side of Jimmy, not Jimmy the fully formed human being.
brickarts295
Member
Jesus, for a group of writers, actors and directors to maintain this high level of quality after 3 season and a 5 season masterpiece before this. The BB/BCS crew is on a legendary status right now.
Bounceounce
Member
Which is funny, because in my interpretation Chuck clearly recognized that he was either hurting everyone around him or at least that's how he's always be perceived, and the guilt/regret for that/the way he ruined his entire life, was eating away at him and lead him to project the advice that he couldn't take himself in terms of being cold towards the world, onto Jimmy, ruining himself even more in the process.
No, you're ignoring his methods.
How? How did he salvage Irene's relationships?
By destroying. Himself, in this case.
Like, this isn't even subtext. Jimmy says it himself. He's struggling to build some kind of window for Irene to come back into the fold with her friends, and he can't. He says to Kim. "I can't create. I can only destroy." And then he realizes what he can do to salvage her relationship. An act of destruction.
Destoryers aren't necessarily bad people (Chuck thinks they are, or that they ought to be in any case. His telling of Jimmy that he should abandon his regrets isn't because he thinks he's being disingenuous, but because he just wants the simple narrative that Jimmy is just a bad guy), as his act of destruction in this episodes a positive end. But destroy is what Jimmy does.
What he did directly resulted in Irene getting her friends back. Jimmy and Kim have a loving relationship. Jimmy has hired people and given them jobs. That's not destruction. You're seeing what you want to see.
Simplifying all Jimmy's actions as mere acts of destruction is ignoring all of the good work he has also done for his clients, such as the work he's put into his clients' wills or most notably, the foundation of the Sandpiper case.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
I think the hardest part about the ending is that we all know someone that bad, either through depression or bipolar or what have you. We all know someone who could easily give in and take their life. I commend the writers for writing and shooting such a ridiculously raw scene.
And McKean for just going all in. At any point during that entire episode, he could have made Chuck's horrific breakdown a gigantic mistake in his career. The ending especially. Where the fuck did he have to go in order to put on the face that he did in the final scene?
And McKean for just going all in. At any point during that entire episode, he could have made Chuck's horrific breakdown a gigantic mistake in his career. The ending especially. Where the fuck did he have to go in order to put on the face that he did in the final scene?
*throws up hands*
If you cannot see that Chuck is fundamentally right about his methodology being destruction, something Jimmy himself admits in this exact episode before literally committing that exact act with the elderly, then I can't make you. It seems your rejection of it is that you conflate destroyer with immoral person, and I already said that was not the case. If you are unable to make a distinction between those two things, there isn't really an understanding we can come to.
You make a good point. There is stuff that he created. But it's not that Jimmy is wholly incapable of creation (though it should be noted that Chuck who found the detail that made Sandpiper into the multimillion dollar lawsuit that it is. It's hard to say whether Jimmy would have caught it, since he doesn't have Chuck's encyclopedic knowledge of the law. The Schwichart lawyer didn't when he first glanced at it.), it's that destruction is his bread and butter, and it's something he does almost instinctively, or atleast inevitably.
If Jimmy wants something, and all other options have been exhausted, he'll destroy whatever he needs to to get his end. And that end can be positive or negative, but it's how he works.
spawnsniper
Member
Bravo!!! great ending to the season. /i cant wait until next season. for now im dry for a month....NFL(cowboys fan) preseason starts in Aug. lest hope July goes by quick.
Jimmy destroys, that's part of who he is, but he doesn't only destroy. He creates and loves too. Weren't you the one saying how we have to appreciate these characters as complex? Why are you now suddenly so dead set on simplifying things?
See above post. I am fully accepting of Jimmy's aspects of being a creator. The terms aren't mutually exclusive.
And you're mistaken if you think destroyer is a moral simplification. Or atleast you are conflating 'destroyer' with 'evil'.
I am not saying that Jimmy is simple or evil just because he's a destroyer. I'm just saying that Chuck called him a destroyer, and he is objectively correct. Even Chuck doesn't fully associate destroyer with evil, because he says he believes Jimmy's emotions of regret and caring to be genuine. He just wants Jimmy to be simple and evil. Something Jimmy refused to do by his actions in this episode.
RecRoulette
Member
Goddamn, didn't notice the suicide hotline number at the end until I rewatched the ending. Good of them to put it there.
This is a rare time I agree with you. Kim even says "play to your strengths" right before he figures out what he needs to do.
It's a great gesture for Irene and her friends, but has also completely fucked up his clientele. When his suspension is up, there is no way in hell he can go back to doing what he was doing before.
This is a rare time I agree with you. Kim even says "play to your strengths" right before he figures out what he needs to do.
It's a great gesture for Irene and her friends, but has also completely fucked up his clientele. When his suspension is up, there is no way in hell he can go back to doing what he was doing before.
Chuck said all he does is destroy and that he can't change. I think part of the whole point of Jimmy's character arc through this is that Chuck is wrong, and it'll be especially clear when the show wraps up. I'd nearly bet my account on there being at least one episode devoted to a post-BB redemption arc in the final season.
No, that's where you're wrong. Chuck does not say that's all he does. Go back and check if you don't believe me.
What he says it's something he can't help doing. He's saying it's an inherent aspect of his personality, not the whole of his personality. He just wishes he could write Jimmy off as evil for doing it, because evil people wouldn't have regrets like Jimmy does.
But we do know that Jimmy continues to play to his strength as he becomes Saul eventually. And even if we get that post BB episode you're talking about...so what? It will just mean that that Jimmy rejected Chuck's advice to not feel bad about his actions in the end. But he still did them. One episode of him trying to amend stuff isn't can't erase what seems to be a decade long career of making it his business.
It'll mean that Jimmy can change and ultimately, after everything, isn't the man his brother believed he was. There's no doubt in my mind that that's the destination this show is headed for.
I really think Chuck is dying tonight
God dammit.
Except that in your scenerio, he will have been, save for the last few days of whatever this post-BB thing hypothetically happens.
It's not exactly a slam dunk win against Chuck, is it? "Hahaha, see bro? I can change! And it only took me years and years and years of doing that exact thing you accused me for it to happen." I mean, it's like pretending Darth Vader wasn't a monster most of his life because Luke turned him to the light side on his death bed. It's a positive change, but it doesn't erase the past. At best, Chuck will have been mostly, 97% right instead of 100%.
Also, keep in mind what we know about post-BB Jimmy. He sits at home and watches his Saul Goodman videos to feel better about himself. And in a moment of personal crisis, he sides with a petty thief that was committing an actual crime. It's a petty crime, but when he saw it happening, he sided with the guy who stole the store property from a presumably innocent party. That doesn't really imply to me that he's a goody-two shoes in the future.
Lastly, a running theme of Vince's work is having people accept themselves for who they are, even if who they are isn't a positive thing. Walt died happy that he lived his life the way he wanted, even though it meant destroying hundreds of lives. Mike eventually goes to work for Gus as his personal hitman, because his skills make him good at that. Hank was distaught in the time he was crippled until he was able to be a cop. The conflicts often go around how dissatisfied men tend to be if they cannot do the jobs they like doing, even if the job is morally wrong.
In that theme, the natural conclusion would be for Jimmy to accept that he is a destroyer. Not make some kind of care-bears 'he was a good person deep inside all along' aesop.
As usual, you're going off the rails and becoming petulant over a TV show. You have this incredibly irritating tone where your interpretation of characters is the only right one, and that anyone who doesn't agree is a child or dumb. I'd tell you to try and dial it back, but I know you won't. I don't agree with your worldview at all.
Just read this. Did not know they confirmed Chuck is legitimately dead. Thought there was a chance he survivrd. Well fuck.
Not much to say, episode was amazing as always. RIP Chuck. Despite everything, it was a tragic way to go.
I think this is officially better than BB for me now. It probably already was for a lot of you, but now I'm sure.
I think so? It definitely caught my attention, as I don't recall Kim ever doing that before.
I think this is officially better than BB for me now. It probably already was for a lot of you, but now I'm sure.
I think so? It definitely caught my attention, as I don't recall Kim ever doing that before.
stenbumling
Unconfirmed Member
That's what they want you to think. #ChuckLives
So is he the best character on the show?
That first scene when he confronted Chuck and made him actually consider his actions (threatening to tear down HHM at the first suggestion at retirement from his loyal friend of at least 17 years), and then he bought the guy out using money out of his own pocket, showing an extreme difference in values (Howard cares about the firm, Chuck cares about himself, his pride, and being right), and THEN Howard forced the man to face all the people of the firm that he had just threatened to destroy, while they look up to him with trust and glowing admiration.
It was such a powerful move, almost as strong as what Jimmy pulled at the bar hearing.
I was watching by myself, but I still said, "Damn, Howard."
firehawk12
Subete no aware
If Jimmy/Saul gets a redemptive arc set in the "present", I'll be really, really angry. Perhaps more angry than after the Lost and BSG finales. lol
This show is better as a whole
But Walter White as a character is far beyond anyone in this show, and his complexity and story line was the reason I loved BB so much. I didn't like Jesse as much as some others did, great character but a notch below Jimmy, Kim, Chuck, and Howard in this show.
I disagreed with you and cited my reasons for doing so. At no point did I say or imply that my opinion was the only right one or insulting anybody, or 'going off the rails' or anything your implying here. Hell, I complimented rekameohs for bringing up valid points of creation that Jimmy made that I wasn't thinking of when I first wrote my take on it.
I disagree with you because I genuinely just don't think the arguments your making hold water and bring up reasons and evidence to show why I feel that way. That's really all there is to it for me. What is it that you feel I should do exactly? Agree with parts of what you say just to placate you?
But I will say we shouldn't go down this hole because you're moving this in a personal direction. As of now, you're not making criticisms against my arguments about the show, you're making a criticism of my character. It amounts to meta-commentary, not talking about the show, which detracts from the topic, so I'm gonna stop now and I advise you to do as well.
Walter White is a legendary tier TV show lead character, like up there in the annals of time with Tony Soprano. I don't think Jimmy is there yet. I think that and BB's moments of heart pounding tension and excitement are what edge it out over BCS for me, but BCS is one of the best purely human dramas of all time.
Lord of Castamere
Member
Damn, Rip Chuck. That was haunting episode. The music when Chuck was ripping up the house, and then the music when Nacho was in the car was spot on.
I almost want the show to get cancelled. I don't think I'll be able to handle the Kim breakup. Every moment with Kim is a treat, especially when she's not in lawyer mode, and when Jimmy isn't hogging the spotlight.
I almost want the show to get cancelled. I don't think I'll be able to handle the Kim breakup. Every moment with Kim is a treat, especially when she's not in lawyer mode, and when Jimmy isn't hogging the spotlight.
CMojicaAce
Member
Amazing how the show can make me go from calling Chuck a piece of shit to feeling sad for him a few minutes later. Show is so good.
I got the impression Chuck's talk of regret is what started his illness. After that horrible thing he told Jimmy, I assume he regret it and felt so much remorse it made his pain worse. I think he cares a lot about Jimmy but bottles it all up and expresses it terribly, and it manifests in his weird allergy.
stenbumling
Unconfirmed Member
The season finale was very neat in a way I did not expect – I would be at least somewhat satisfied if there were no more seasons (god forbid). I mean, there are still a lot of things to tell and stuff we don't know, but there aren't really any loose threads that need further explanations. We can pretty much guess and use Breaking Bad as guide to figure everything out ourselves. The only real "mystery" that I feel that I need and want to know is Kim's fate. I really want more of Nacho too, but his "story" ended on a pretty good note and his non-influence on the story of Breaking Bad doesn't make his future potential story that critical to know.
Best season yet.
Best season yet.
Grizzlyjin
Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
I was actually wondering about that. Did Jimmy tell her off-camera? She seemed to be aware of the situation now, while she wasn't last week.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Yeah, in that one scene, he managed to make up for three seasons worth of bullshit.
It's been implied since season two that Kim knows everything.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Well, she was the one that originally told him to cover his tracks with Mesa Verde.
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
I'm glad Jimmy was able to make amends to the old women.