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Bioshock Infinite | Official Spoiler Thread |

PaulloDEC

Member
Joking aside, what did you all take away from the story? I think Ill Saint made a lot of valid points except despite all those problems, for me the story did come together in the end. However due to the nature of the ending the discussion now seems to be largely about the specifics of time travel and multiverses. Once we can get past grasping the developer's idea of how all this works in their fictional world (and I think the OP has a reasonable explanation) isn't the next question about the themes and characters in the story? I'm still not sure what to make of "I'm both" and idea of choice/free will (and how it compares to the first Bioshock).

Even after all of the alternate timeless and parallel realities, I think the thing that interested me most about the story was the way the characters were gradually revealed to be different from how they first appeared, or in some cases, the way they changed before our eyes.

I particularly liked the way Booker and Elizabeth switched roles towards the end. It's so strange to me to think back on how I viewed Booker at the beginning of my first run; he seemed like a strong character, someone with some control and mastery over his life. He'd accepted a dangerous mission to a strange land, and he took it all in his stride. Elizabeth on the other hand began as a childlike figure, full of wonder and excitement at the world.

Cut to the end of the game and it's a different picture. Elizabeth has grown at a rate of knots, recreated as an almost world-weary woman with power and wisdom beyond any other force in the story. She takes control of not only her own life, but the lives of Booker and every other citizen of Columbia.

Booker on the other hand is shown for what he really is. A man who's committed atrocities for employers his whole life, eventually left broken and weary, descending into drink and gambling. By the time he reaches Columbia he's even more of a powerless chump than he was before, operating under the instructions of people he can't even remember meeting. In a story that focusses primarily on a girl kept locked away for her entire life, it's actually Booker who turns out the more pitiable. I found that fascinating.
 
So, the crux of it all, is accepting that:

When the universe encounters a paradox due to a choice, it systematically wipes out all timelines associated with that choice, and only allows the timelines with an alternate choice to be made.

Therefore, since Booker accepting baptism and becoming Comstock always winds up in a paradox, the universe goes, "No", wipes those timelines out, and only allows timelines featuring baptism rejection to exist.

Hence, the post-credits scene.

Am I...on the right track?
Precisely. Coincidentally, this is the simplest explanation I've seen. The ending is basically relying on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novikov_self-consistency_principle
EDIT: Beaten by Screaming Meat somewhere earlier.

What my brain is just coming around to realize, is that:

The Luteces basically didn't like the sequence of events that occurred in their timeline. So, they actively sought to create a paradox, as a means of wiping out those timelines. Would that be correct?

Timeline destruction.

Fascinating.

But at the end of the day...given an infinite number of realities...aren't there realities where the Luteces didn't actively seek to do this? And thus, Comstock went ahead and survived?

Doesn't a multiverse theory's central tenet hold that ALL possibilities happen? Everything conceivable occurs, in some universe somewhere out there? That it can't just be shut off by stopping a choice from being made?

The first, indeed.

The second, before the events of the game there would have been but they cannot exist anymore after the events of the game. The set of universes where Booker succeeds in creating the constant and the set where Booker fails can't exist together. This is because Elizabeth murders Booker in every single universe before the choice after he succeeds the first time.

The third, the writers get around this with constants and variables so while there is always an infinite amount of universes, each universe is limited by the events that have already happened.

Quick question that popped in my mind:

Why don't the Luteces ever tell Booker that Elizabeth is his daughter that he wants to rescue?
What do they gain by not telling him? He did after all accept to go there to get her back, but in the process he formed a different memory..
If they tell him the truth then he might just go to Paris with her.

Heeeey... I mentioned that earlier, you swine! I want a goddamned gold-star or... or something. :p
Sorry for that! I hope this very nice gold star is enough!
G2kurrd.jpg
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member

Window

Member
This one's not so much about the relationship between games and players. It's a bit more about the relationship between the protagonist and the player, but mostly I think it's just a character drama, a sci-fi Greek tragedy about atonement, "paying your debts/washing your sins away." In the end, the only way for Booker to do that is to literally wash himself away. Water as a motif is used really well throughout the game, as it equates baptism to drowning several times. The irony of Booker having to accept Elizabeth's 'baptism' to wash away his own and Comstock's sins is deftly done. The end is simply an incredibly cathartic moment when both the audience and the protagonist know what has transpired, the tragedy of the horrible chain of the events having been caused by us, and that the only way to wipe the slate clean is to not just kill Booker but purge his very existence, and Liz with it. Really I think everything in the game is ultimately in service of that catharsis.

It throws in some commentary about the nature of games and stories in general, with constants and variables. I like the take that the multiple Elizabeths and Bookers in the sea of Lighthouses represents other players who made slightly different choices yet ended up in the same place. For the writer, the multiverse also represents the myriad choices he could've made to change the story, yet end up in the same place. For example the scrapped bits of the game we see in demos (nudged at by the original Elizabeth design showing up at the end).

To the bolded, yes you're right but I'm again not sure what to make of it. As you say ,it is an incredibly affecting moment but beyond that...I don't know.
 

XNarte

Member
Finished it last night, and am still soaking in all of the details, and I have one question:

How are Booker and Comstock in a single timeline?

I understand that Booker/Comstock are who they are because of the baptism turning point, and Sterile Comstock saw Booker through a tear and stole Anna from Booker in Booker's world, and pulled her into his world, but I guess what I'm confused on is did I miss a point in the story where Booker goes into the tear that Comstock went back into?

If I'm reading things correctly, doesn't each possible existence only contain Comstock or Booker, depending on his baptism choice? Also, does Columbia even exist in a "Booker" timeline?

Someone help clarify!
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
Finished it last night, and am still soaking in all of the details, and I have one question:

How are Booker and Comstock in a single timeline?

I understand that Booker/Comstock are who they are because of the baptism turning point, and Sterile Comstock saw Booker through a tear and stole Anna from Booker in Booker's world, and pulled her into his world, but I guess what I'm confused on is did I miss a point in the story where Booker goes into the tear that Comstock went back into?

If I'm reading things correctly, doesn't each possible existence only contain Comstock or Booker, depending on his baptism choice? Also, does Columbia even exist in a "Booker" timeline?

Someone help clarify!

It happens in the office towards the end. The Lettuce folk open one and draw you through, I think. I don't think Columbia does exist, because Comstock doesn't (as such) in Our!Booker's universe. He says that he'd never heard of it to Liz at some point early on.

A point of speculation: Do you think a lot of the tech that went into Columbia available to the rest of the world (perhaps derivative tech)?
 

XNarte

Member
It happens in the office towards the end. The Lettuce folk open one and draw you through, I think. I don't think Columbia does exist, because Comstock doesn't (as such) in Our!Booker's universe. He says that he'd never heard of it to Liz at some point early on.

Okay I though the Lettuce (lol) folk opened a tear up I just must have lost that detail as I recollect on the ending. Thanks.
 

Dylan

Member
I'm still not clear on why the male Letuce takes the baby and gives it to Comstock. I always thought that the Letuce's were trying to end the crazy cycle?
 

PaulloDEC

Member
I'm still not clear on why the male Letuce takes the baby and gives it to Comstock. I always thought that the Letuce's were trying to end the crazy cycle?

It was the original Lettuce twins who took the baby, i.e. before they became the crazy dimension-jumping versions who drag Booker to Columbia.
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
I'm still not clear on why the male Letuce takes the baby and gives it to Comstock. I always thought that the Letuce's were trying to end the crazy cycle?

I think that was Boy Lettuce before they were "murdered" and they came up with the plan. If they hadn't done that there would be no loop to destroy. Anthropic Principle FTW!

EDIT: ...beaten.
 

Trigger

Member
I'm still not clear on why the male Letuce takes the baby and gives it to Comstock. I always thought that the Letuce's were trying to end the crazy cycle?

That was a past version of the Letuces from before they're "death" and eventual decision to atone.

EDIT- Beaten TWICE
 

Dylan

Member
That was a past version of the Letuces from before they're "death" and eventual decision to atone.

EDIT- Beaten TWICE

But if that Letuce predates the loop in the first place, there is no Comstock to hire him to get the baby... my nose is bleeding?
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
But if that Letuce predates the loop in the first place, there is no Comstock to hire him to get the baby... my nose is bleeding?

Comstock exists independently of The Cabbage Patch Science Pirate Family, though. Their meddling did not create Comstock.
 

LiK

Member
I think as soon as Booker is drowned by the Elizabeths, any timeline involving Comstock is destroyed. I think the Luteces are immune cuz they're living outside the scope of any set timeline now.
 
I think as soon as Booker is drowned by the Elizabeths, any timeline involving Comstock is destroyed. I think the Luteces are immune cuz they're living outside the scope of any set timeline now.

Exactly. They basically exist as energy, able to jump between worlds on a whim.
 

iMax

Member
Now for the theory: If we assume that Anna/Elizabeth's mother is the same woman as Lady Comstock from Booker's dimension, we can draw the following, logical conclusions: Her name was Annabelle. She died giving birth to Anna and to honor her, Booker named his daughter Anna. Comstock knows this as HIS Lady Comstock was also named Annabelle, obviously, as they're the same person. The "Annebelle? Is that you?" is just a wink-wink, nudge-nudge moment to this theory of mine, it put me on the track. What sealed it for me was the gate at Comstock House recognizing Elizabeth as Lady Comstock. Over a dress? I think not. They share genetic material because Lady Comstock is actually Elizabeth's mother, just in another dimension, just as Comstock is her father in a dimension where he isn't Comstock.

Genius. I need to replay this thing.
 

Red

Member
I'm unclear on how Booker does not merge with his other selves (Comstock, martyr Booker) when universe hopping, unless it has to do with being in proximity with Liz. All those dead guys that are trapped between are trapped because they've been transported back to their living selves, in a different world. The Lueteces are strangest of all... All of their selves are bound up into single manifestations when they get zapped by the machine. They exist simultaneously in all universes.
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
I'm unclear on how Booker does not merge with his other selves (Comstock, martyr Booker) when universe hopping, unless it has to do with being in proximity with Liz. All those dead guys that are trapped between are trapped because they've been transported back to their living selves, in a different world. The Lueteces are strangest of all... All of their selves are bound up into single manifestations when they get zapped by the machine. They exist simultaneously in all universes.

I think it's because the dead people don't travel through tears. Also, Booker DeWitt isn't Sam Beckett :p

The Cabbage Patch Twins are a special case. They were murdered whilst using the Quantum Doo-Hickey Machine which apparently gives you the ability to travel time and space with impunity, just like losing your pinkie in one universe means you can warp all of reality.
 

Trigger

Member
I'm unclear on how Booker does not merge with his other selves (Comstock, martyr Booker) when universe hopping, unless it has to do with being in proximity with Liz. All those dead guys that are trapped between are trapped because they've been transported back to their living selves, in a different world. The Lueteces are strangest of all... All of their selves are bound up into single manifestations when they get zapped by the machine. They exist simultaneously in all universes.

Doesn't Our!Booker get a nosebleed during the Vox Populi uprising? I assume that he did get some of Martyr!Booker's memories, but surpressed them in an effort to focus on his main mission.
 
N

Noray

Unconfirmed Member
I'm unclear on how Booker does not merge with his other selves (Comstock, martyr Booker) when universe hopping, unless it has to do with being in proximity with Liz. All those dead guys that are trapped between are trapped because they've been transported back to their living selves, in a different world. The Lueteces are strangest of all... All of their selves are bound up into single manifestations when they get zapped by the machine. They exist simultaneously in all universes.

As to Martyr Booker, he's already dead by the time we enter that universe. The Chen Lin is alive universe (first hop) makes no mention of Booker, so he could be already dead or never have made it, we don't know.

As to Comstock and why Booker doesn't get HIS memories (apart from the NY bombing, oddly, and I can't explain that), I think it's for the same reason he looks and sounds different and appears much older. As Lutece explains: "A theory: just as sexual reproduction can de-emphasize the traits of each parent, so goes the effect of multiple realities on our own. Your traits dissipate, until they become unrecognizable, or cease to exist."

Meaning, genetically Comstock ISN'T Booker anymore. Like I said, this doesn't account for the NY memory, which I find immensely frustrating because it's either a plot hole or I'm missing something.
 

54-46!

Member
So how do you kill Lady Comstock? it seemed like she every time she "died" I wasn't shooting at her, I didn't have health bars activated so I figured she only took damage when she was resurrecting ghosts.
 

Trigger

Member
So how do you kill Lady Comstock? it seemed like she every time she "died" I wasn't shooting at her, I didn't have health bars activated so I figured she only took damage when she was resurrecting ghosts.

Naw, you shoot her. She just has an absurdly high health bar, and it's easier to hit her when she's standing still resurrecting ghosts.
 

ultron87

Member
Shouldn't Booker be able to open the Comstock house gate since it uses finger prints? I guess he never actually tries in game.
 

LiK

Member
So how do you kill Lady Comstock? it seemed like she every time she "died" I wasn't shooting at her, I didn't have health bars activated so I figured she only took damage when she was resurrecting ghosts.

I just kept shooting her until she died. Super easy with Crows to distract the grunts.
 

Dance Inferno

Unconfirmed Member
They went though two tears in the game and ended up in lets call it Universe 3. So does that mean Booker and Elizabeth no longer exist in Universe 1? And why are there not Elizabeths in Universe 3 then, or would universe 3 Elizabeth have already torn through and gone to her own version of universe 3, so the Elizabeths just keep shifting over?

In that vein, which universe "matters"? They get the guns in universe 3, leaving universe 1 as it was?

It doesn't really matter in the end since they erase all Comstocks from existence, which erases all universes that have a Columbia.
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
Shouldn't Booker be able to open the Comstock house gate since it uses finger prints? I guess he never actually tries in game.

One of the Cabbage Patch Twins Voxophones say something about how the same person from different universes aren't necessarily genetically identical. Let me look for it...
 

Trigger

Member
One of the Cabbage Patch Twins Voxophones say something about how the same person from different universes aren't necessarily genetically identical. Let me look for it...

"Comstock seems to have been made sterile by simple exposure to our contraption. A theory: just as sexual reproduction can de-emphasize the traits of each parent, so goes the effect of multiple realities on our own. Your traits dissipate, until they become unrecognizable, or cease to exist."
x
 

monome

Member
On the narrative side, the game shits on Halo 4 at every turn.

whether in length, accessibility of information regarding events/characters and the relationship of the two main characters and how the non playable one augments the gameplay.

I hope 343i takes a deep long look at Infinite rather than COD when they decide on Halo 5 direction.
 

Dylan

Member
Somebody should draw out the Lettuce's timeline and add it to the OP! I find that to be the most interesting.
 

keit4

Banned
I'm speechless. Just finished the game and came to this thread expecting an interesting discussion, but this... is much better than expected. Awesome work guys.

Irrational Games and Ken Levine <3
 

Scuderia

Member
I had a few theories whilst playing through, they all turned out to be FAR from the truth though. The closest one i guess was that Elizabeth was, in fact, Lady Comstock.

Fair enough, one theory was some sort of Jacobs Ladder purgatory type thing, i was convinced i'd end up in Vietnam at some point after hearing Fortunate Son :|
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
I had a few theories whilst playing through, they all turned out to be FAR from the truth though. The closest one i guess was that Elizabeth was, in fact, Lady Comstock.

Fair enough, one theory was some sort of Jacobs Ladder purgatory type thing, i was convinced i'd end up in Vietnam at some point after hearing Fortunate Son :|

The only thing I actually got right in my whole playthrough theorizing was that The Cabbage Patch Twins were alternate versions of each other.
 

Scuderia

Member
The only thing I actually got right in my whole playthrough theorizing was that The Cabbage Patch Twins were alternate versions of each other.

Oh yeah i actually came to the conclusion about halfway through that they were the same person, from different universes. I think it might have been pretty much explained in the tapes though.
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
Oh yeah i actually came to the conclusion about halfway through that they were the same person, from different universes. I think it might have been pretty much explained in the tapes though.

Ah... I must have mixed up the voice on the tapes with the voice in my head. :D
 

Kajiba

Member
Beat the game just now and came here.

This thread is fucking amazing. Answered a lot of questions I had.

This game is truly amazing.
 
Oh yeah i actually came to the conclusion about halfway through that they were the same person, from different universes. I think it might have been pretty much explained in the tapes though.
That's my theory too, and I'm thinking that the far right Elizabeth who drowned DeWitt was actually Lady Comstock. We haven't seen her with that attire before.

Then again it could be a rejected model :p
 

Gibbo

Member
to be honest i was clueless for most of the ending sequence - but the moment he said 'no, im both' , everything just clicked. and i had fucking goosebumps all over. one of the greatest payoffs in gaming or movies i think
 

Amneisac

Member
I'm not going to say the story (or Elizabeth) deserves quite all the praise it's getting, but there's one thing I absolutely loved:

THANK THE FUCKING LORD they actually gave us an ending. I was so nervous it was going to be some 'to be continued' type shit so we'd buy the season pass.
 
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