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[AlexMogil]

I'm really thinking that the entire game was about the nature of gaming. The fact it was a shooter isn't the point. It could have been a maze game, a stealth game (which it was at times), a resource game (which it was at times) doesn't matter.

The complaints about it being a shooter I feel missed the point. There will always be a man (a villain), a lighthouse (a game), and a city (the playfield and its mechanics).

 

[The One Who Knocks]

I'm unclear on how Booker does not merge with his other selves (Comstock, martyr Booker) when universe hopping, unless it has to do with being in proximity with Liz. All those dead guys that are trapped between are trapped because they've been transported back to their living selves, in a different world. The Lueteces are strangest of all... All of their selves are bound up into single manifestations when they get zapped by the machine. They exist simultaneously in all universes.

When you cross over you don't merge with your other selves. When you cross over, two things happen. First you remember what the other version of yourself remembers. The only problem is, these memories are in the same place as the pre-existing person's (the person who crosses over) memories. This leads to cognitive dissonance, where two memories are conflicting with each other. This leads to suppression of memories, corruption of memories and erasion of memories. Secondly, to fill in the gaps that were left by this conflict, the subject makes new memories around memories that are important to them (which seem to be the first things that they retain/remember; which is why Anna being sold and the New York burning memories are the first things that Booker remembers after crossing over).

The dead people is not quite the same but is one of the biggest 'problems' that I think happens in the story. However, I think it can easily be explained by a demonstration somebody on GameFAQs suggested. Take a glass and put a seperator down the middle and then fill it with water. Put red dye in one half, and blue dye in the other. Next, punch a hole in the seperator. This hole is the tear. Some red dye leaks over to the blue side, and vice versa but Elizabeth only opens the tear long enough to travel through it. As a result, you have to quickly cover/close the hole. Some red dye will mix with the blue dye, and vice versa, and it happens close to the tear, but because it closes so quickly not everything mixes. Similarly, the guards close to the tear suffer cognitive dissonance but the others do not. The tear opens on dead Chen Lin, so other Chen Lin suffers it. Both Elizabeths and both Bookers in the new universe did the exact same thing, just in different timelines, so there is no conflicting memories for them. For martyr Booker universe, there is cognitive dissonance for Booker since both Bookers did different things. Why Elizabeth doesn't suffer the same consequence, who knows. Perhaps it's because she herself created the tear, it's not really stated in the game.

As for the Luteces, there are two possibilities. The first is that there are an infinite amount of Luteces scattered in the probability space but only the two we see are relevant since they're the two that succeed in resetting the timeline. The second is that all of the Luteces that were scattered in the timeline merge together since they're scattered across the probability space. Either way, it doesn't really matter. They don't take memories of other Luteces because in the game they only enter universes where they have already been scattered so their memories will be the same and won't conflict. I think that's plausible, I'll need to reread this a few times to think if it makes sense.

Somebody should draw out the Lettuce's timeline and add it to the OP! I find that to be the most interesting.

Already done:

I've changed this very slightly from the initial one if anybody who saw the other is reading and notes the difference, the main difference is pertaining to the dates that have been added to the Luteces' segments.

There is also this vertical timeline XAL's cleaned up timeline) but there are some errors (notably pertaining to the ending being another timeline and the "Y Chromosone setting Robert Lutece back" [paraphrased] since this is incorrect)

EDIT: Also, pertaining to the opening post (I hope BruceLeeRoy does not mind me saying this but I imagine it'll help others understand why things aren't yet being added) the character limit was used in the opening post. As the second post wasn't 'reserved' more information cannot be added yet until a mod can assist it would seem.

 

[LiK]

I'm really thinking that the entire game was about the nature of gaming. The fact it was a shooter isn't the point. It could have been a maze game, a stealth game (which it was at times), a resource game (which it was at times) doesn't matter.

The complaints about it being a shooter I feel missed the point. There will always be a man (a villain), a lighthouse (a game), and a city (the playfield and its mechanics).

Yup, Bioshock 1 did a good job showing us that we will follow offers blindly if the game tells us no matter what we do, except for the decision to save/kill the Little Sisters.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

EDIT: Also, pertaining to the opening post (I hope BruceLeeRoy does not mind me saying this but I imagine it'll help others understand why things aren't yet being added) the character limit was used in the opening post. As the second post wasn't 'reserved' more information cannot be added yet until a mod can assist it would seem.

Yeah I am waiting for the second poster Rokker to get back to me. I need him to add stuff to his post to free of the main one. Such a oversight on my part.

 

[Hylian7]

Maybe I missed some Voxophones, but I kind of wanted to know more about the crows. What were the coffins on their backs for? I'm assuming the disappearing act was a form of the murderous crows Vigor. I also want to know about the firemen too. Did they get chosen for the same reason Handymen did?

 

[threetri333]

I'm confused about the post credit scenes, I thought all Bookers were murdered before he made a choice in Baptism. Does a universe where Bookers and Annas exist and live happily?

 

[Screaming Meat]

When you cross over you don't merge with your other selves. When you cross over, two things happen. First you remember what the other version of yourself remembers. The only problem is, these memories are in the same place as the pre-existing person's (the person who crosses over) memories. This leads to cognitive dissonance, where two memories are conflicting with each other. This leads to suppression of memories, corruption of memories and erasion of memories. Secondly, to fill in the gaps that were left by this conflict, the subject makes new memories around memories that are important to them (which seem to be the first things that they retain/remember; which is why Anna being sold and the New York burning memories are the first things that Booker remembers after crossing over).

The dead people is not quite the same but is one of the biggest 'problems' that I think happens in the story. However, I think it can easily be explained by a demonstration somebody on GameFAQs suggested. Take a glass and put a seperator down the middle and then fill it with water. Put red dye in one half, and blue dye in the other. Next, punch a hole in the seperator. This hole is the tear. Some red dye leaks over to the blue side, and vice versa but Elizabeth only opens the tear long enough to travel through it. As a result, you have to quickly cover/close the hole. Some red dye will mix with the blue dye, and vice versa, and it happens close to the tear, but because it closes so quickly not everything mixes. Similarly, the guards close to the tear suffer cognitive dissonance but the others do not. The tear opens on dead Chen Lin, so other Chen Lin suffers it. Both Elizabeths and both Bookers in the new universe did the exact same thing, just in different timelines, so there is no conflicting memories for them. For martyr Booker universe, there is cognitive dissonance for Booker since both Bookers did different things. Why Elizabeth doesn't suffer the same consequence, who knows. Perhaps it's because she herself created the tear, it's not really stated in the game.

Jesus... this is superb work, man. I'd add to that the cognitive dissonance/Schrodinger's Embolism only seems to occur when the subject is categorically dead in one universe (and, as you said, in proximity to a tear). What the game shows rather than tells is that Booker seems able to reconcile any memories, whereas the dead can't... likely by their virtue of being dead.

Does this go anyway to explaining the Comstock House denizens?

As for the Luteces, there are two possibilities. The first is that there are an infinite amount of Luteces scattered in the probability space but only the two we see are relevant since they're the two that succeed in resetting the timeline. The second is that all of the Luteces that were scattered in the timeline merge together since they're scattered across the probability space. Either way, it doesn't really matter. They don't take memories of other Luteces because in the game they only enter universes where they have already been scattered so their memories will be the same and won't conflict. I think that's plausible, I'll need to reread this a few times to think if it makes sense.

There is a Voxophone transcription that kind of addresses this:

"Comstock has sabotaged our contraption. Yet, we are not dead. A theory: we are scattered amongst the possibility space. But my brother and I are together, and so, I am content. He is not. The business with the girl lies unresolved. But perhaps there is one who can finish it in our stead."

They seem able to traverse the probability space with little issue but are unable to directly affect events, just kind of nudge them along.

EDIT: The issue that remains for me with them is kind of a Grandfather Paradox: If they manage to break the loop, they take their influence out of existence... the very agency that allows the breaking of the loop in the first place. It's very difficult to discuss all this without reverting to time-travel type dialogue when it's more about parallel worlds.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

Maybe I missed some Voxophones, but I kind of wanted to know more about the crows. What were the coffins on their backs for? I'm assuming the disappearing act was a form of the murderous crows Vigor. I also want to know about the firemen too. Did they get chosen for the same reason Handymen did?

There was a voxophone explaining the 3 symbols of the Crows.

Symbols of Our Lady
"Sweet mother of Columbia, why do we worship three symbols in your memory? We worship the sword, so that we might avenge you. We worship the raven, so that we might cover the city with eyes. We worship the coffin, because it symbolizes the weight of failure."
--First Zealot, January the 6th, 1912

 

[jacksepticeye]

I made a video review of the game if anyone would like to check it out

You Don't Know Jack - Bioshock Infinite Review

 

[Salamando]

Jesus... this is superb work, man. I'd add to that the cognitive dissonance/Schrodinger's Embolism only seems to occur when the subject is categorically dead in one universe (and, as you said, in proximity to a tear). What the game shows rather than tells is that Booker seems able to reconcile any memories, whereas the dead can't... likely by their virtue of being dead.

Incorrect. Robert Lutece had problems from the cognitive dissonance when entering the new reality. Booker was able to acquire Comstock's vision of New York bathed in flame somehow, and had nosebleeds during that one elevator ride prior to monument island. It seemed like any entity new to a universe would have problems remembering things when they tried to remember them.

 

[hteng]

I have a question, how did Booker end up in old Liz's timeline where the whole asylum level takes place? at that point he already lost Liz and he can't possible open a tear himself, furthermore, old Liz did mentioned she used up all her power to bring him there but why wait until she was old?

 

[SictorVullivan]

I'm confused about the post credit scenes, I thought all Bookers were murdered before he made a choice in Baptism. Does a universe where Bookers and Annas exist and live happily?

Basically, when Elizabeth killed Booker in the Baptism scene, every universe/timeline where Comstock was created or had an effect on was deleted. Only the 'birth' of Comstock was affected, Booker was still alive in atleast one permutation of the timeline. Since Booker goes over to the Columbia world, and since his live has already been affected by Comstock (when he took Anna) everything including Columbia ceased to ever exist.

The last point at which Comstock had no impact on the timeline whatsoever was the morning of the day where Booker gave Anna over to Lutece, and therefore Comstock. This is what we saw in the post credits scene. The timeline reset, Comstock never existed, Columbia never existed, and the Elizabeth and Booker we saw in the game never existed. And so Booker wakes up as if nothing happened, and opens the door to Anna.

Thats what I made of it anyway.

Which brings me to my question after beating it yesterday. Since we know Booker and Comtock's world are separate, and there is no Columbia in Booker's original world, at what specific point do the Lutece twins bring Booker over to the Columbia world in the game? Is it in the boat at the beginning or is it before at an unspecified point?

All in all though, one of the best games I have ever played.

 

[LiK]

Levine is in NPR talking about the game.

http://www.wbur.org/listen/live

 

[FlutterPuffs]

How does that work if the two are completely separate people?

What I meant was that she's the Elizabeth from Compton's timeline.

 

[Dance Inferno]

Levine is in NPR talking about the game.

http://www.wbur.org/listen/live

Thanks, listening now.

 

[Screaming Meat]

Incorrect. Robert Lutece had problems from the cognitive dissonance when entering the new reality. Booker was able to acquire Comstock's vision of New York bathed in flame somehow, and had nosebleeds during that one elevator ride prior to monument island. It seemed like any entity new to a universe would have problems remembering things when they tried to remember them.

When I was referring to the cognitive dissonance/Schrodinger's Embolism, I meant the flickering state that the dead near a tear seem to have. I should've just called it Schrodinger's Embolism and be done. Apologies, my semantics were out of whack.

There is an obvious difference between the living reconciling their memories (which causes a nose bleed) and the dead who cannot reconcile them at all and seem to flit between realities. Liz says (I'm paraphrasing): "How could you reconcile something like that?" about Alive/Dead!Chen Lin. Neither Booker or Bobby Cabbage died, so neither were caught in a Schrodinger's Embolism type state, but both did suffer from cognitive dissonance, you're right.

 

[Tadale]

Levine is in NPR talking about the game.

http://www.wbur.org/listen/live

I hope this is archived. I'd like to listen later.

 

[Screaming Meat]

I have a question, how did Booker end up in old Liz's timeline where the whole asylum level takes place? at that point he already lost Liz and he can't possible open a tear himself, furthermore, old Liz did mentioned she used up all her power to bring him there but why wait until she was old?

You see discreet tears as you cross the windy bridge. Old!Elizabeth pulls Our!Booker through when the Siphon in her reality (which acts as a leash on the full extent of her powers) is destroyed:

Tomorrow, the leash comes off-- because all of this ... has to end. But even if I destroy the Siphon, will I be strong enough to see all the doors, and open whichever I choose? And if I bring him here, who is to say that he would be any match for the monsters I have created?

 

[ezekial45]

Levine is in NPR talking about the game.

http://www.wbur.org/listen/live

The host sounds like he despises video games.

 

[JetBlackPanda]

The host sounds like he despises video games.

*plays clips from game*

this isn't Pong or Mario everyone..

*rolls eyes*

the callers in have been pretty awesome though.

 

[jacksepticeye]

The host sounds like he despises video games.

Yeah he's kind of annoying me, but thankfully Ken's voice soothes me again

 

[Winterblink]

I'm confused about the post credit scenes, I thought all Bookers were murdered before he made a choice in Baptism. Does a universe where Bookers and Annas exist and live happily?

Post credit scenes? Mother fucker......

 

[Dance Inferno]

I think the host is accommodating listeners who aren't gamers themselves, and I can see why he does that. Most regular Joes don't know what BioShock or Half Life are, but they know Mario and Pong.

 

[Red]

How does time travel work in this game? If it's just another "multiverse" thing, that's fine, but the idea behind tears in reality to other places seems to treat each reality as running parallel. All times are on top of one another, jumbled up... Like time is flat, everything is occurring at once. Is that about right? Because the idea behind Anna's ability is that she can connect to other universes, but how is she able to go the future and the past?

I guess it's got to do with the whole "ocean" thing. She can go anywhere in any reality, it's all a big pool to her.

 

[The One Who Knocks]

Does this go anyway to explaining the Comstock House denizens?



There is a Voxophone transcription that kind of addresses this:



They seem able to traverse the probability space with little issue but are unable to directly affect events, just kind of nudge them along.

EDIT: The issue that remains for me with them is kind of a Grandfather Paradox: If they manage to break the loop, they take their influence out of existence... the very agency that allows the breaking of the loop in the first place. It's very difficult to discuss all this without reverting to time-travel type dialogue when it's more about parallel worlds.

I read the suggestion that you've implying (I don't know if it was the same user, if it was in the previous spoiler thread or where, sorry to whoever did it), that the Comstock House contains people that were affected by the tears but I would agree in it seeming likely. In fact, if Comstock opened up the amount of tears he seemed to, a large amount of people could potentially be affected depending on who is nearby, he himself unaffected because he and the Luteces are using the machine to peer inside which could explain the size of the facility.

I concur with the Voxophone but I think (I don't know if I misinterpretted the question originally) was that if there were an infinite number of Luteces, which there are, why don't they experience cognitive dissonance when they're all scattered among the probability space and they all occupy the same 'place' (although it's not really a 'place' I guess). P.S. Actually, thinking about it, if they're all scattered, it doesn't mean that they can enter all areas, they're confined to a certain set of probabilities which, as you've mentioned, they could then alter. I think that could account for it. It seems kind of irrelevant anyway since it's never directly stated and the Voxophone you've quoted is 'meant' to be the answer. The bolded seems to be absolutely correct.

Anyway, as for the edit, you actually can resort to time travel dialogue as opposed to speaking of it in terms of parallel universes since Elizabeth drowns Booker in every universe.

This, really is, the most concise, and simplest explanation:

So, the crux of it all, is accepting that:

When the universe encounters a paradox due to a choice, it systematically wipes out all timelines associated with that choice, and only allows the timelines with an alternate choice to be made.

Therefore, since Booker accepting baptism and becoming Comstock always winds up in a paradox, the universe goes, "No", wipes those timelines out, and only allows timelines featuring baptism rejection to exist.

Hence, the post-credits scene.

Am I...on the right track?

EDIT:

How does time travel work in this game? If it's just another "multiverse" thing, that's fine, but the idea behind tears in reality to other places seems to treat each reality as running parallel. All times are on top of one another, jumbled up... Like time is flat, everything is occurring at once. Is that about right? Because the idea behind Anna's ability is that she can connect to other universes, but how is she able to go the future and the past?

Kind of an easy explanation for this one (but I don't know how well I've worded it), time is relative to the timeline. So past, present, and future, are all occuring simultaneously in different timelines. She can go to the future and past by opening a tear/going to a timeline where time is behind/ahead of our own (for example, going to Paris when Revenge of the Jedi is showing). So, in each universe, time goes forward, but what point in time each universe is in is different.

 

[Noray]

The host isn't terrible, actually asking some decent questions to the callers. Clearly catering to an audience that doesn't know anything about vidya.

 

[Vire]

Thumbs up to the callers on the NPR broadcast.

Giving gamers a good name.

 

[Dance Inferno]

They need to have Ken talk more, what the hell.

 

[Dusky]

Thumbs up to the callers on the NPR broadcast.

Giving gamers a good name.

Agreed.

 

[jacksepticeye]

Thumbs up to the callers on the NPR broadcast.

Giving gamers a good name.

And they're actually smart gamers too, they seem to know what they're talking about

 

[Hylian7]

I'm going to guess this NPR broadcast is not taking spoilers?

 

[JetBlackPanda]

dude bros are busy?? these callers are pretty great.

j/k

 

[LiK]

They're like people in this thread. Smart people are attracted to this game. That's right, I said it.

 

[jacksepticeye]

They're like people in this thread. Smart people are attracted to this game. That's right, I said it.

I haven't posted a lot in this thread but I posted a lot in the last spoiler thread, am I still smart?

 

[Voice of Reason]

I haven't posted a lot in this thread but I posted a lot in the last spoiler thread, am I still smart?

Maybe in another timeline.

 

[jacksepticeye]

Maybe in another timeline.

 

[Red]

I read the suggestion that you've implying (I don't know if it was the same user, if it was in the previous spoiler thread or where, sorry to whoever did it), that the Comstock House contains people that were affected by the tears but I would agree in it seeming likely. In fact, if Comstock opened up the amount of tears he seemed to, a large amount of people could potentially be affected depending on who is nearby, he himself unaffected because he and the Luteces are using the machine to peer inside which could explain the size of the facility.

I concur with the Voxophone but I think (I don't know if I misinterpretted the question originally) was that if there were an infinite number of Luteces, which there are, why don't they experience cognitive dissonance when they're all scattered among the probability space and they all occupy the same 'place' (although it's not really a 'place' I guess). P.S. Actually, thinking about it, if they're all scattered, it doesn't mean that they can enter all areas, they're confined to a certain set of probabilities which, as you've mentioned, they could then alter. I think that could account for it. It seems kind of irrelevant anyway since it's never directly stated and the Voxophone you've quoted is 'meant' to be the answer. The bolded seems to be absolutely correct.

Anyway, as for the edit, you actually can resort to time travel dialogue as opposed to speaking of it in terms of parallel universes since Elizabeth drowns Booker in every universe.

This, really is, the most concise, and simplest explanation:



EDIT:

Kind of an easy explanation for this one (but I don't know how well I've worded it), time is relative to the timeline. So past, present, and future, are all occuring simultaneously in different timelines. She can go to the future and past by opening a tear/going to a timeline where time is behind/ahead of our own (for example, going to Paris when Revenge of the Jedi is showing). So, in each universe, time goes forward, but what point in time each universe is in is different.

I just don't like looking at it linearly. "Timeline" is throwing me off. I like the "ocean" comparison used in-game. It's kind of like a buch of different strings, I get that, but it's more comprehensible to me to think of it as one big pool. It's one big bubble with many smaller bubbles within it.

 

[Creamium]

Somebody call and ask him about the Songbird cry in BioShock

 

[Andrew.]

They're like people in this thread. Smart people are attracted to this game. That's right, I said it.

Spoilers man

 

[Neiteio]

I shared this the other day, but man, I can't get over how cool it is. Am I the only one that absolutely love this statue? It's the way it smolders in the sunlight, like something out of ancient mythology:

I know Fink himself is an ass-hat, but MAN.

DAT STATUE.

 

[jacksepticeye]

Oh God now we're onto the whole videogame = violence subject again. The host sounds like he actually believes that too a little

 

[ezekial45]

That was pretty dickish of the host to bring up the Newtown shooting.

 

[José Mourinho]

That's my theory too, and I'm thinking that the far right Elizabeth who drowned DeWitt was actually Lady Comstock. We haven't seen her with that attire before.

Then again it could be a rejected model

The model you're talking about is featured in the video footage of Elizabeth when you're going through the tower.

 

[JetBlackPanda]

wow really with the Newton stuff.

the host really rubbed me the wrong way when Ken was trying to explain his feelings on it and the host interupted to say.. yeah but there is Adam lanza and 20 dead kids... whats your point?!?!

Just because Ken makes "shooter" games he is somehow responsible or even has to make a comment on that event?

 

[SolsticeZero]

Somebody call and ask him about the Songbird cry in BioShock

Shit, if I wasn't at work, I would totally do this.

 

[jacksepticeye]

That was pretty dickish of the host to bring up the Newtown shooting.

I don't like his tone either and the way he posed it towards Ken when he brought up Lanza

 

[LiK]

Another ignorant journalist.

 

[Noray]

Asking questions is his job. He could've phrased it in a way that didn't seem so accusatory, though.

 

[Dance Inferno]

I'm sure he was asking a question that a lot of his listeners had. Maybe his tone was a little accusatory but I don't see anything wrong with asking about a controversial subject.

 

[Salamando]

When I was referring to the cognitive dissonance/Schrodinger's Embolism, I meant the flickering state that the dead near a tear seem to have. I should've just called it Schrodinger's Embolism and be done. Apologies, my semantics were out of whack.

There is an obvious difference between the living reconciling their memories (which causes a nose bleed) and the dead who cannot reconcile them at all and seem to flit between realities. Liz says (I'm paraphrasing): "How could you reconcile something like that?" about Alive/Dead!Chen Lin. Neither Booker or Bobby Cabbage died, so neither were caught in a Schrodinger's Embolism type state, but both did suffer from cognitive dissonance, you're right.

The weird part about all this superpositioning of a native entity over the visting entity is what happened to Booker when he entered the Vox Rebellion timeline. Technically he's the third Booker there, with Comstock being the native and other Booker as a visitor...yet he was more able to absorb dead-Booker's memories than Comstock's.