JetBlackPanda
Member
I agree the question was ok but you could tell he was not ok with Kens answer and went into.. well we have Lanza and 20 dead kids..
that was really weird.
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Bioshock Infinite | Official Spoiler Thread |
- Thread starter BruceLeeRoy
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I agree the question was ok but you could tell he was not ok with Kens answer and went into.. well we have Lanza and 20 dead kids..
that was really weird.
Dance Inferno
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah I agree the way he phrased it was a little aggressive: "You still have Lanza with 20 kids under him. What's your point?" But I think the way Levine answered it was pretty cool and collected, so he handled it well.
Finally finished it. Figured out Elizabeth was his daughter maybe halfway through, though I assumed Anna was his wife that died in childbirth. Didn't like he was also Comstock. That was way too pat and convenient, and feels like way too big of a reach. Also I don't think it really works when Comstock knows the truth. His motivations make no sense. I wish he had an actual history to explain his motivations. Being a figment of imagination basically makes him like a get out of jail free card for the writer. Same with the million lighthouses and a million doors. I was more hoping there was actually only one real world, and that her powers drew from her mind. If you ever played Second Sight, that's the sort of ending this should have had. It would have explained everything, and a great reversal of expectations.
One thing though. Who was songbird? There's mention of there being a man in there, and for a while I assumed that was future Booker, but that went differently.
One thing though. Who was songbird? There's mention of there being a man in there, and for a while I assumed that was future Booker, but that went differently.
ThaiGrocer
Member
As a premise repeated over and over again and vidya gaems being a relatively new medium, I'd say it's easy to consider that as a fact to some. This is especially the case if you don't play games at all. The hosts questions felt natural and coming from his own view of the world. What I liked the most is that he acknowledges the unique features of games, as well, both positive and negative. The host is not ignorant without a way out of it if you listen to everything he says..
Just had a discussion with my coworker about that songbird scream in BS1. Thing is, the original voice of the songbird was kind of deep, like the big daddies, as referenced in the BioShock wiki:
He has a point actually. If this is true then there's no way they or Levine could have thought of that in the development of BS1. The connection was made during the development of Infinite, i think.
Something in the lines of "Hey, we have this cool sound asset from BS1, it fits the songbird PERFECTLY, plus it'll reference infinite! Win-win, let's change (the tone of) his voice!"
But i want to BELIEVE!
http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Songbird
He has a point actually. If this is true then there's no way they or Levine could have thought of that in the development of BS1. The connection was made during the development of Infinite, i think.
Something in the lines of "Hey, we have this cool sound asset from BS1, it fits the songbird PERFECTLY, plus it'll reference infinite! Win-win, let's change (the tone of) his voice!"
But i want to BELIEVE!
JetBlackPanda
Member
this is just from memory.
the question came up about a link in shootings to violent video games.
Ken answered by saying that some research shows that isn't true and that when he was a kid he loved DnD and people had the same kind of ideas about it, same with comic books, rock and roll etc.
the host then interrupted and said yeah but we have Lanza and 20 dead kids..
I can't remember Kens response after that, it rapped up pretty quick right after that.
The One Who Knocks
Member
Hmm. I can understand what you mean. Perhaps visualising it will help?
Past, present, and future, all occuring simultanesouly in different timelines, the black line "present" relative to each (of course, you can change the times listed to any times, since there's an infintie set of universes, an 'ocean' if you will). If it's easier to think of as an ocean though then by all means. I only look at it as 'timelines' since it's personally easier to understand that way but if the opposite is through for you there's no need to think of it that way.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
You see, I don't think it was just Comstock who affected those weirdos, but Old!Elizabeth. Comstock House is a kind of a what-if scenario; in this case, what if Comstock succeeds? If he did succeed, he would be dead and Old!Elizabeth would take his place. Now, she mentions in a voxophone:
Taking into account her ability to use tears and the effect this has on the recently dead, the denizens of Comstock House seem to be similarly afflicted (ie with Schrodinger's Embolism). Are these her creations...?
Also? Check this out. I don't understand it myself, but there is a neat bit that seems to fit here:
There is also this and this, both of which discuss Constants and Variables in relation to Quantum Mechanics. Again, it's all jibberish to me. Surely there must be a quantum physicist on GAF who can decipher all this?
ALSO? Regarding time being simultaneous. I think Dr Manhatten in Watchmen describes it best:
Anyone else get an Alan Moore/Grant Morrison type feeling at the end of Bioshock Infinite? No? Just me then...
One of the comstock recordings talks about his dog Bill he had as a child. That was obviously before the baptism fork, so our Booker had that dog too. Wouldn't that have been a bit of a tip off for Booker? He doesn't react to it at all. I know, "Because video games", plus they both could have had different Bills, but that's a bit odd.
About 10 minutes in
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBkQ74PzoeM&feature=youtu.be
About 10 minutes in
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBkQ74PzoeM&feature=youtu.be
therealminime
Member
It's very possible/likely he just made Bill up to get his point across.
Not sure you understood the story like the rest of us. Did you read the OP? Comstock wasn't a figment of the imagination. He was Booker if Booker accepted baptism. Booker was always racist, and committed horrible atrocities at Wounded Knee, partly because he himself is part Indian and so he "overcompensated" for this by killing scores of Indian men, women and children to prove himself to his fellow soldiers.
After Wounded Knee, he suffers remorse and self-loathing. He attends a baptism to try and free himself of his past. Here, there is a divergent path: One of depression, and one of rationalization, the two sides of the human psyche. Depressed Booker can't bring himself to try and whitewash his past through baptism, so he rejects the priest and lives with the burden of guilt, drowning himself in alcohol and debt. If he accepts baptism, however, he rationalizes away his past actions with religious righteousness, justifying past acts of cruelty and empowering himself to do more. He doesn't fall into debt; in fact, he becomes wealthy, and accrues a throng of followers who only add to his cult of personality. He goes on to lobby Congress to fund the Columbia project, and with Lutece's quantum mechanics powering the whole deal, he ultimately secedes from the Union.
Since exposure to the Lutece field rendered him old and sterile, he resorted to taking a child he had in another timeline, "saving" his daughter from his unbaptized "sinner" self. All of this to maintain his lineage in keeping with his worldview, but more to the point, to fulfill what he perceived as prophecy -- the vision of old Elizabeth razing NYC in the future, glimpsed through a tear.
It works well, and is a beautiful way to fully realize Booker's character -- at once the tragedy, peril and redemption of Man.
Comstock is not a figment of Booker's imagination. He's a real, flesh and blood person. This isn't a Fight Club situation. Comstock is a parallel universe version of Booker. He has an actual history to explain his motivations, and the game lays it out fairly clearly by the end.
You seem pretty resistant to the "multiple worlds" theory in the game, but it's the foundation of the entire city. I'm not sure why it's such a problem for you.
What aspect of the 'multiple worlds' premise feels too powerful for the writer? In what ways did the game abuse it?
You missed the point of it, by killing Booker before the baptism, they killed off all possible Comstocks. By killing Comstock, no one ever took Bookers baby. That's why his life was effectively reset to that day.
Vire
Member
It's not that outlandish for someone to have the same dog name as you. *Shrug*
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
He was...? I musta missed that.
Tummi Gummi
Member
He's accused of having some "injun blood" by the other soldiers. It's not clear whether that's literal or just their euphemism for being yellow-bellied or w/e.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Really? I don't remember that at all... Is that in a Voxophone Recording? All I remember hearing is:
If he were part Indian, why is Comstock!Booker so damn bigotted... and why did he even take part in Wounded Knee?
There's a voxophone where Comstock talks about being accused of "having some teepees in his family tree" or something like that and how it really pissed him off. He says after Wounded Knee and the things he did there he never heard that again.
The ending makes perfect sense -- it's just been a matter of us all trying to explain it, in a clear and thorough way.
I'd put it like this:
Liz could manipulate time-space because part of her (the tip of her pinky finger) was in one universe, while the rest of her was in another. It's like she's standing on the border between worlds, one foot on each side, able to see both sides.
To try and regulate this power, the siphon was created inside Monument Island, as a way to restrain her. Liz describes it as a "leash." Once the siphon is destroyed at the end of the game, she's "off the leash," and her power reaches its full potential. She can now see all of the infinite sets of timelines in the universe... including all of the ones in which Booker becomes Comstock.
To prevent Comstock from ever happening, Liz has to create a PARADOX, because the universe "does not like its peas mixed with its porridge," as Lutece put it -- or in other words, nature will correct any paradoxes by obliterating paradoxical timelines from existence.
So, Liz creates a paradox: She drowns Booker before his baptism. This creates a paradox because if Booker is dead, Booker can never become Comstock, and if Booker can never become Comstock, Comstock can never steal Liz, and if Liz is never stolen, Liz never receives her ability to traverse time-space and kill Booker in the first place.
The universe sees this and goes, "PARADOX!" And then obliterates each and every timeline where Booker becomes Comstock.
All that remains, are the timelines where Booker rejects baptism. What was once a "variable" -- an element that can change, in this case to accept or reject baptism -- is now a "constant," like the coin that always comes up heads when the Lutece twins meet Booker again at the Raffle Fair and ask him to flip the coin.
That's an important concept to understand. There are constants -- elements that always work out the same across all timelines -- and variables, or things that are different depending on the timeline. Elizabeth, by creating a paradox, forced the universe to take the "variable" of accepting/rejecting baptism, and turn it into the "constant" of rejection.
And so Booker, while still in debt, will be able to see his daughter grow up. And hopefully things will work out for the best.
I'd put it like this:
Liz could manipulate time-space because part of her (the tip of her pinky finger) was in one universe, while the rest of her was in another. It's like she's standing on the border between worlds, one foot on each side, able to see both sides.
To try and regulate this power, the siphon was created inside Monument Island, as a way to restrain her. Liz describes it as a "leash." Once the siphon is destroyed at the end of the game, she's "off the leash," and her power reaches its full potential. She can now see all of the infinite sets of timelines in the universe... including all of the ones in which Booker becomes Comstock.
To prevent Comstock from ever happening, Liz has to create a PARADOX, because the universe "does not like its peas mixed with its porridge," as Lutece put it -- or in other words, nature will correct any paradoxes by obliterating paradoxical timelines from existence.
So, Liz creates a paradox: She drowns Booker before his baptism. This creates a paradox because if Booker is dead, Booker can never become Comstock, and if Booker can never become Comstock, Comstock can never steal Liz, and if Liz is never stolen, Liz never receives her ability to traverse time-space and kill Booker in the first place.
The universe sees this and goes, "PARADOX!" And then obliterates each and every timeline where Booker becomes Comstock.
All that remains, are the timelines where Booker rejects baptism. What was once a "variable" -- an element that can change, in this case to accept or reject baptism -- is now a "constant," like the coin that always comes up heads when the Lutece twins meet Booker again at the Raffle Fair and ask him to flip the coin.
That's an important concept to understand. There are constants -- elements that always work out the same across all timelines -- and variables, or things that are different depending on the timeline. Elizabeth, by creating a paradox, forced the universe to take the "variable" of accepting/rejecting baptism, and turn it into the "constant" of rejection.
And so Booker, while still in debt, will be able to see his daughter grow up. And hopefully things will work out for the best.
maybe they were saying that cuz he might've been more merciful than the other soldiers. cuz i didn't get that vibe that Booker wasn't a racist like the Comstock people.
hm, that makes more sense now.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Ah, fair enough.
EDIT: Here it is:
Well, blow me. Actually, don't. Explains why Booker knows the Sioux Language.
Yeah, I guess I didn't fully understand the end. Still don't really like them being the same person. I feel like they were too divergent to be the same person, and I'm not sure what Comstock's end goal was when he essentially threw away the city when he knew how the fight had to end.
Also, if they're the same person but different ages, how come no one in the whole damn city notices? Someone would say he looks like the prophet's son or something.
Also, if they're the same person but different ages, how come no one in the whole damn city notices? Someone would say he looks like the prophet's son or something.
There's two references to that. Booker is called the White Indian by Slate, and Comstock has a recording where he mentions the Indian blood. Though it makes Slate the dumbest motherfucker in the world for dealing with Comstock and not realizing he was DeWitt.
He didn't "throw away the city." Comstock said all along he knew he was going to die, and that he had to die. Sort of a "Jesus fulfilling the prophecy" sort of deal. Comstock sacrificed himself believing it was in fulfillment of the "prophecy" he glimpsed through the tear: Elizabeth leading Columbia alone, razing NYC to the ground. Comstock felt he had to do what he could to stop the False Shepherd, but one way or another, Comstock himself would perish, whether it was by tumors or the devil at his door. He had to have faith the prophecy would be fulfilled so long as he tried.
And what's scary about his divergent personality is it's all -too- realistic. I've seen some people completely invert their personalities upon being "born again." Sometimes for better, sometimes for worse. Booker was always racist, but becoming Comstock allowed him to elevate his innate hate of "others" to some divine cause. Fueled by his own convictions, he became charismatic. He avoided the pitfalls of gambling, etc, that dogged his unbaptized self, and became successful, wealthy, influential, with followers and admirers and political allies that allowed him to convince Congress to fund Columbia, and enabled him to get away with secession when he and his followers felt they knew better.
Comstock hardly looks like he did in his prime because he's prematurely old and ill from exposure to the Lutece field, not to mention his presence is wholly different since mentally, he has completely altered his sense of self.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Fortunate Son...
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
You can read the response of all of those questions in the OP.
And Comstock hardly looks like Booker.
Eight Diagram Bat Fighter
Banned
And "Will The Circle Be Unbroken"
Pretty sure that's public domain
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Eight Diagram Bat Fighter
Banned
I'm talking about how well the song fits the plot.
I'm sure he failed and succeeded a million times, because given infinite chances Booker would both succeed and fail. I still don't understand why. Following a prophecy is something that happens in bad movies. The lack of a personal motivation made him feel like a Bond villain with no real humanity. People have done some evil things to gain power, but Comstock seemed to be doing all this for nothing.
Are you trying to say you wouldn't recognize a friend if you haven't seen him for ten years, and he's stick? Even if there are forty foot high statues of him all over the place? Come on. If one of them had been disfigured some way I could buy it, but the similarities had to be too close for absolutely no one to notice it.
The One Who Knocks
Member
The Voxophone makes it very convincing they're something she's made but the only problem I'd have with that is that at the end of the game when she brings you through the tear she mentions how it took all she had. The siphon was never destroyed (the siphone also significantly weakens [seems to drain?] her of her powers) and the operation performed to prevent her opening tears. At the same time though, as you've noted, this contradicts them being 'her creations'. Perhaps it refers to the tears she made in the xis months between being taken by Songbird and the operation which left them in that state? As for the rest, I'm afriad most of that completely goes over my head I'm afraid so I can't really comment on it in relation to Infinite. Perhaps somebody else can.
EDIT:
Ignoring everything else, that can't happen. The set of universes where Booker succeeds, and the set where he fails, cannot coexist, because if he succeeds once, nothing ever happens. Only one set can exist and 'succeed' takes precedence over 'fail'.
Kobun Heat
Member
The rabbit hole goes deeper and deeper and deeper than that, actually. (I really have to update this story with the new music.)
http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2012/12/bioshock-infinite-music/all/
Eight Diagram Bat Fighter
Banned
He's doing it out of desperation to keep his rule and power over the people as a prophet. The same reason he slaughtered all those indians and stole Anna and killed his wife and Lutece twins so he wouldn't be called out as a fraud.
People get fooled seeing their subordinate/ceo on Undercover Boss all the time. It's not out of the realm of possibility.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, that was kind of my thinking on it.
Me too. Just interesting that Constants and Variables (whatever they may actually be) are tied directly with Quantum Mechanics.
Is there a physicist in the house?
Personal motivation? Of all videogame villains, Comstock's motivations were very well-realized. He wanted to bring about the future he had glimpsed because he felt it was the RIGHT future. He wanted to punish the world below for sins like emancipation of the blacks, something they only tolerate in Columbia out of need for immigrant labor. He wanted to punish the world below for failing what he saw as the divine intent of the Founding Fathers. He wanted to rid the world of "Sodom" so only his "New Eden" remained. When Booker was born again as Comstock, it really and truly went to his head; he found his "voice," sold others on his vision with his moral conviction and newfound charisma, and with everyone echoing in agreement, it fueled his cult of personality and his belief in himself as right. And molding the rest of the world in that image is what motivated him, as was plain to see in every bit of propaganda throughout Columbia.
If my friend's physique had been completely altered, his hair completely different, his status, his mannerisms, his very spirit and presence.. No, I may very well not recognize him.
I noticed that lyric on my second playthrough, great foreshadowing.
Exclamation-One
Member
I'm probably not articulating this as well as I could, but with all of the praise the game's narrative is getting, I'm a little worried about the DLC.
What makes Bioshock Infinite great is the lack of detail in spots (Lutece siblings). I sincerely hope Levine doesn't let all of the praise to get to his head. I want to see Fitzroy, Saltanstall, and the other, more 'grounded' elements fleshed out.
I think the narrative provides the perfect amount of mindfuckery and plenty of fuel for the imagination. For instance, I would like to see more of Songbird, but I don't necessarily need to see an explanation for the Songbird.
Anyone else feel this way?
What makes Bioshock Infinite great is the lack of detail in spots (Lutece siblings). I sincerely hope Levine doesn't let all of the praise to get to his head. I want to see Fitzroy, Saltanstall, and the other, more 'grounded' elements fleshed out.
I think the narrative provides the perfect amount of mindfuckery and plenty of fuel for the imagination. For instance, I would like to see more of Songbird, but I don't necessarily need to see an explanation for the Songbird.
Anyone else feel this way?
Dragon1893
Member
I can finally join the fun. Fantastic OP guys.
It was obvious that Liz would be captured after we got attached to her but damn, when it happened it really pissed off. The way they reveal how much she suffered through the tears and then when you actually see what they're doing to her... I felt pleasure shooting those scientists begging for their lives lol.
Was expecting songbird to be the final boss, actually having it help during the final battle was a nice twist. Felt sorry for it when it died.
After that scene, when I realized I was in Rapture... my jaw just hit the floor.
It was obvious that Liz would be captured after we got attached to her but damn, when it happened it really pissed off. The way they reveal how much she suffered through the tears and then when you actually see what they're doing to her... I felt pleasure shooting those scientists begging for their lives lol.
Was expecting songbird to be the final boss, actually having it help during the final battle was a nice twist. Felt sorry for it when it died.
After that scene, when I realized I was in Rapture... my jaw just hit the floor.
VitalNerve
Member
Can someone explain why there were all these songs from the future? Gimmie shelter, God only knows, girls just wanna have fun etc.
Gimme Shelter was played? As in the Stones song and used in every Scorsese movie ever?
I dont think it was in there...
to show that the tears were showing a glimsp of the future times.
Eight Diagram Bat Fighter
Banned
Dude was using tears in space to steal songs from the future and claim them as his own. He was called the Mozart of Columbia.
"Dear brother, these holes in the thin air continue to pay dividends. I know not which musician you borrow your notes from, but if he has half the genius of the biologist I now observe, well...then you are to be the Mozart of Columbia."
VitalNerve
Member
yeah there is a red tear in a room when you fight the first handyman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh68_zGUhnU