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Bioshock Infinite | Official Spoiler Thread |

I'm sure he failed and succeeded a million times, because given infinite chances Booker would both succeed and fail. I still don't understand why. Following a prophecy is something that happens in bad movies. The lack of a personal motivation made him feel like a Bond villain with no real humanity. People have done some evil things to gain power, but Comstock seemed to be doing all this for nothing.

It's not really prophecy though- Comstock may call it that to his followers but he knows that he is literally seeing the/a future. However he doesn't have Elizabeth's ability to see the entire multiverse nor does he have the Luteces' understanding of how it all works so he is reacting to limited information.

I don't believe that he was "doing all this for nothing": Considering that "raining fire onto Sodom" doesn't occur until 1984, Comstock has likely seen quite a bit of the future up until that point through various tears. I can only imagine how someone with the ideals that Comstock had in 1912 would react to seeing glimpses of how the the US in the '80s would look, especially after the social reforms of '60s. It doesn't surprise me that he would devote his life to try to wipe that out.
 

Blinck

Member
Can someone explain why there were all these songs from the future? Gimmie shelter, God only knows, girls just wanna have fun etc.

Fink's brother started hearing these "future" songs from the Tears in Columbia, and basically started ripping them off.

EDIT: Beaten to a pulp :(
 

Neiteio

Member
Kind of blows my mind that so far, in accordance with the internal logic of the game, Infinite's time-space tale is actually... Coherent. Airtight, even. All of this scrutiny and it still makes sense -- a triumph for a tale of this sort.

What's more, it's incredibly human, intimate, and dramatically resonant. It's not just there because it's neat, it actually serves as a framework providing multiple perspectives on Booker, which is key to understanding his redemption.
 

LiK

Member
Kind of blows my mind that so far, in accordance with the internal logic of the game, Infinite's time-space tale is actually... Coherent. Airtight, even. All of this scrutiny and it still makes sense, and what's more, dramatically resonant. It's not just there because its neat, it actually serves as a framework providing multiple perspectives on Booker, which is key to understanding his redemption.

it only starts to go outta whack when people start posting their own views of time travel and multiverses into it. if people follow the game logic, then it's pretty tight and makes sense. well, most of it.
 

Aaron

Member
Kind of blows my mind that so far, in accordance with the internal logic of the game, Infinite's time-space tale is actually... Coherent. Airtight, even. All of this scrutiny and it still makes sense -- a triumph for a tale of this sort.

What's more, it's incredibly human, intimate, and dramatically resonant. It's not just there because it's neat, it actually serves as a framework providing multiple perspectives on Booker, which is key to understanding his redemption.
I'm coming around to it, but I wish there was a solid moment where Comstock explained his views and reasons, maybe even to the point where Booker would hesitate in killing off this other version of himself. Explain it in such a way that Booker would be momentarily seduced by the point of view, since they are the same person after all.

I was also hoping for something that explains how one man takes on thousands of soldiers and survives. I like the notion that coming back from death is a different Booker, but there were long stretches where I survived when it felt too videogame-y. I was also hoping for an explanation on the vigors. Why Booker has so many to access at once, and almost no one else uses them even when the bottles seem pretty plentiful. I miss Bioshock's ability to explain all of its technology in a way that wasn't using QUANTUM MECHANICS the same way Kojima uses NANOMACHINES.
 
I read the first two pages, and didn't see my one question addressed. I'm sure it's been asked before, but could someone please help me out with the ending after the credits.

How is this even possible if Booker was killed already by Elizabeth?
 
BIG UPDATE to OP.

I had to go the image route to fit all the text I know its not ideal but I tried to use the opportunity to make things visually stand out more and be easier to read.

If I have missed something in the last 5 pages please let me know.

Thanks guys.
 

Dresden

Member
Going through Comstock House again on my 1999 run is more affecting than expected.

Nothing beats those exhibits in Hall of Heroes, though.
 
BIG UPDATE to OP.

I had to go the image route to fit all the text I know its not ideal but I tried to use the opportunity to make things visually stand out more and be easier to read.

If I have missed something in the last 5 pages please let me know.

Thanks guys.

Holy....wow.

EDIT: One thing, the verticle timeline is "XAL's"
So some questions:

1. Did they ever explain what exactly vigors are?

With ADAM it was stem cell slugs, so are vigors just tech stolen from another universe or did the Luteces' just invent it, later to be manufactured by Fink?


2. Did anyone else besides me pick up that Elizabeth was Dewitt's daughter REALLY EARLY in the game? Referring specifically to the scene where one of Comstock's female undercover commandos calls Elizabeth "Annabelle" (after the kid's arcade and before the train station ambush).

That was when I put it together that Comstock must have been an older Dewitt with player Dewitt being brought into a parallel universe (this theory made up because when Dewitt dies he's back in his office just before he heads off to Columbia, basically when he dies he resets then SOMEONE brings him back to where he was in the alternate timeline).

3. Why/How does Elizabeth have powers? Is it because the Luteces' messed with her physiology as an experiment or is it like the wiki says that having a part of her body cut off in a different universe allowed her to have an intuitive understanding of time-space which allows her to manipulate the Lutece fields...???


**
also here's a better timeline
http://i.imgur.com/MaHNjLo.jpg

EDIT: Something here is missing I think:

"WHY IS COMSTOCK SO MUCH OLDER THAN YOU IF HIM AND BOOKER ARE THE SAME AGE?

Elizabeth destroy New York himself anyway), and aging rapidly. In short, the Luteces' machine is extremely hazardous to one's health. The Voxophones related to the sterility, tumors and, finally, rapid aging are:"
I don't know if a picture isn't loading for me though.
 

LiK

Member
BIG UPDATE to OP.

I had to go the image route to fit all the text I know its not ideal but I tried to use the opportunity to make things visually stand out more and be easier to read.

If I have missed something in the last 5 pages please let me know.

Thanks guys.
Truly the master of OTs
 

Neiteio

Member
I'm coming around to it, but I wish there was a solid moment where Comstock explained his views and reasons, maybe even to the point where Booker would hesitate in killing off this other version of himself. Explain it in such a way that Booker would be momentarily seduced by the point of view, since they are the same person after all.
Unbaptized Booker chose to live with the weight of what he'd done. He started out racist, and this led to the massacre at Wounded Knee. But somewhere along the line he realized, "Holy shit, I killed people." The unbaptized Booker is the Booker who chose to live with that realization, and all of the crushing depression that ensued, sending him down a spiral of drinking and debt. Even though he's at the bottom of the barrel, he doesn't deny what he did was wrong; if anything, living with that guilt keeps him down. The key thing is, -this- Booker has now recognized the ugly side of racism.

Baptized Booker, on the other hand, was "born again" -- what was past, was past. And then he thinks, "There's a God, and what's this, not only does baptism excuse my past actions, but the Old Testament justifies them: Sodom and Gomorrah, Noah's Ark, etc." As Comstock says in one recording, ill treatment of other races -is- cruel, but so was God when he wiped the earth clean with the Great Flood. Cruelty, Comstock says, can be instructive.

The two outcomes of Booker, then, would never see eye to eye. They choose different paths in life. The men they became stand on opposite sides. And the Booker we play sees the horror of what Comstock has become -- a worse monster than the one he now regrets being at Wounded Knee.

I was also hoping for something that explains how one man takes on thousands of soldiers and survives. I like the notion that coming back from death is a different Booker, but there were long stretches where I survived when it felt too videogame-y. I was also hoping for an explanation on the vigors. Why Booker has so many to access at once, and almost no one else uses them even when the bottles seem pretty plentiful. I miss Bioshock's ability to explain all of its technology in a way that wasn't using QUANTUM MECHANICS the same way Kojima uses NANOMACHINES.
RE: taking on thousands of soldiers: ...videogames. At least the fights are, by and large, surrounded by stretches of quiet downtime that make any individual fight feel like a scene out of an action movie.

RE: quantum mechanics: Likening it to nanomachines is unfair. Nanomachines in MGS4 were a lazy deus ex machine to tie up 20+ years of loose ends that were frankly unexplainable (or should've never been explained in the first place). Quantum mechanics, as used here, serve a real point, providing the framework for a very human tale, allowing us to see both the tragedy of man (Booker as he was, and Booker becoming Comstock) and the redemption of man (Booker choosing to drown at baptism). It also, in a larger sense, reflects the tragedy and redemption of America.

Not to mention, everything is foreshadowed. Quite cleverly, at that.
 

Dance Inferno

Unconfirmed Member
The rabbit hole goes deeper and deeper and deeper than that, actually. (I really have to update this story with the new music.)

http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2012/12/bioshock-infinite-music/all/

Nice, great article! Man, this game has a lot of depth that I missed in my first playthrough. Will have to make sure to give it another spin.

BTW have you guys stopped doing reviews? I haven't seen one in a while, and I used to enjoy reading your reviews as they generally mirrored my opinions.
 
Ok I might be missing some obvious stuff on this but why wasn't Elizabeth far more powerful when she left the Tower? The Siphon was in the bottom of it sapping all her untapped power but she could still open tears easily inside the tower, but how come when she left the tower far away from the siphon she wasn't stronger or more aware of things like when the siphon was destroyed?

Was it like storing her power and destroying it gave it back to her?
 

Neiteio

Member
Awesome update, Bruce!

Only tweak I'd recommend is a formatting one -- there are instances where your bolded heading for one section is right up against the last line of the previous section. I'd just go and add a couple lines of space between each section to make it "breathe" a bit more, for the sake of readability. It's overwhelming by the nature of the subject matter, so breathing is key! :)

(An example is the bit that goes: "I'M STILL CONFUSED ABOUT THIS DROWNING BOOKERS/ELIZABETH THING." That heading has no space before it; it's right against the previous section, so people may miss the fact it's a new section.)

Incredible OP, though.
 

Guevara

Member
Dumb question: you can't actually see anything in the tears right? Just hear music or voices.

I circled them trying to see the characters talking but never saw anything.
 

Sub_Level

wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Dumb question: you can't actually see anything in the tears right? Just hear music or voices.

I circled them trying to see the characters talking but never saw anything.

It's just a black and white fuzzy filter of what you happen to be looking at lol
 

Neiteio

Member
Dumb question: you can't actually see anything in the tears right? Just hear music or voices.

I circled them trying to see the characters talking but never saw anything.
You mean like at Comstock House? No, I don't think you can see anything through them.

Narrative-wise, though, it's possible for onlookers to observe other worlds through them.
 
Awesome update, Bruce!

Only tweak I'd recommend is a formatting one -- there are instances where your bolded heading for one section is right up against the last line of the previous section. I'd just go and add a couple lines of space between each section to make it "breathe" a bit more, for the sake of readability. It's overwhelming by the nature of the subject matter, so breathing is key! :)

(An example is the bit that goes: "I'M STILL CONFUSED ABOUT THIS DROWNING BOOKERS/ELIZABETH THING." That heading has no space before it; it's right against the previous section, so people may miss the fact it's a new section.)

Incredible OP, though.

Yeah I'm definitely going to do that. Good suggestion.
 

Creamium

shut uuuuuuuuuuuuuuup
Alright guys. Amazing thread. Here are my two questions:

Assuming Booker scarred "A.D." in his hand after selling Anna, out of regret or something. How did Comstock know about it in his prophecy. Did they meet again afterwards? How did Comstock know Booker would come after Anna in the first place? He wouldn't have, or couldn't have if the Luteces hadn't meddled in.

Someone answer this question, never understood this either.
 

Dresden

Member
Man, when (old)Elizabeth says 'take my hand' at the end of Comstock House, what a crazy moment. It brings back into full circle the vision Booker had earlier in the game, of New York burning, while linking to the failure that she is aware of now about his failure to take her hand before. Every vox record in that place builds up into a growing awareness of what she must do, yet in your first playthrough you lack the contextual recognition to see.

This is such a rich game.
 

Guevara

Member
It's just a black and white fuzzy filter of what you happen to be looking at lol

You mean like at Comstock House? No, I don't think you can see anything through them.

Narrative-wise, though, it's possible for onlookers to observe other worlds through them.

That's a shame, I was hoping to see the person talking. I mean in the story, people can see through tears obviously. That's how they discovered the plans for the Big Daddy, etc.
 
Ok I might be missing some obvious stuff on this but why wasn't Elizabeth far more powerful when she left the Tower? The Siphon was in the bottom of it sapping all her untapped power but she could still open tears easily inside the tower, but how come when she left the tower far away from the siphon she wasn't stronger or more aware of things like when the siphon was destroyed?

Was it like storing her power and destroying it gave it back to her?

It's never really clear what purpose the siphon does I don't think.

"Elizabeth
A Leash
Location: Her Loving Embrace
I suppose the Siphon is a kind of leash. Yes, my father put it on me, but when the time came, neither did I remove it myself. What would happen if I took off the leash, and I found I was ... as obedient as ever?"

This is the closest thing we get to an explanation so I suppose her distance to the siphon has no relevance to its effect on her. It's a good question though, what specifically the siphon does (other than limit her powers) is quite unclear.

EDIT:
Someone answer this question, never understood this either.

Well, the Luteces' machine is sabotaged about twelve days after the male Lutece presents the female Lutece with the ultimatum. It's possible that this made the probability of Booker being taken to rescue Anna larger and this was then seen using the Luteces' machine (but before it was sabotaged by Fink on Comstock's orders).

EDIT: Beaten multiple times. Kmgrey also makes the a very relevant point below.
 
Someone answer this question, never understood this either.

Comstock gets various information about the future from the tears. He doesn't have the complete picture but he knows that Booker will come at some point. He has very likely seen Booker and therefore saw the mark on his hand.
 

CoolCat

Member
So I've finally wrapped my head around the ending (much thanks to you guys!), but there is still one reference which i do not get: when Booker and the Luteces are in the boat - the argument about Booker not rowing. Could someone care to explain that bit please?
 

LiK

Member
So I've finally wrapped my head around the ending (much thanks to you guys!), but there is still one reference which i do not get: when Booker and the Luteces are in the boat - the argument about Booker not rowing. Could someone care to explain that bit please?

Our theory, it's a constant that Booker never rows in all multiverses. Kinda funny.
 

Xanathus

Member
So I've finally wrapped my head around the ending (much thanks to you guys!), but there is still one reference which i do not get: when Booker and the Luteces are in the boat - the argument about Booker not rowing. Could someone care to explain that bit please?

This isn't the first time they've rowed Booker to the lighthouse, they've already repeated the whole intro hundreds of times and Booker has never rowed the boat in any of those times so Male Lettuce has given up on asking him.
 
It's never really clear what purpose the siphon does I don't think.

"Elizabeth
A Leash
Location: Her Loving Embrace
I suppose the Siphon is a kind of leash. Yes, my father put it on me, but when the time came, neither did I remove it myself. What would happen if I took off the leash, and I found I was ... as obedient as ever?"

This is the closest thing we get to an explanation so I suppose her distance to the siphon has no relevance to its effect on her. It's a good question though, what specifically the siphon does (other than limit her powers) is quite unclear.
But destroying it at the end gives some clue as to what it was doing, suddenly having full control of her power and becoming almost omnipotent. Plus if the siphon WAS just suppressing her power and could do so at a distance there would be no need to have it set up in that tower like that surely right? And when Lady Comstock gets reanimated the Siphon has to be in close range to Liz for it to seemingly have a big effect on her.

The only way I could explain it was the Siphon was draining off excess power she would have naturally gained and it kept her sort of capped (there is like a vial of blue liquid in the siphon room) and maybe destroying it gave her all that power back that had previously been taken from her.
 
So I've finally wrapped my head around the ending (much thanks to you guys!), but there is still one reference which i do not get: when Booker and the Luteces are in the boat - the argument about Booker not rowing. Could someone care to explain that bit please?

I think it means that he's not supposed to row, if he did it would change things and not go the way the Luteces intend it to go

Also guys, I STILL haven't played anything else since finishing the game lol. It's so good everything else feels shit now
I took it as a meta-commentary on Booker: "Does He Row?"

He Row = Hero

ie- is Booker a Hero? The answer is no. He's a killer.

Oooooh I like it. Probably reading a bit too much into it but it makes the scene seem cooler, so I'll stick with it :p
VWX1GWS.jpg
 

Magnus

Member
Friend of mine asked an interesting question.

What about Slate?

He's in Columbia, the 'timeline'/universe where Booker has grown into Comstock. What does he make of a 'younger' (not literally), different Booker showing up in The Hall of Heroes?

Is he just insane, all PTSD'd and effectively 'gone'?
 
Friend of mine asked an interesting question.

What about Slate?

He's in Columbia, the 'timeline'/universe where Booker has grown into Comstock. What does he make of a 'younger' (not literally), different Booker showing up in The Hall of Heroes?

Is he just insane, all PTSD'd and effectively 'gone'?

He doesn't know Comstock is Booker (since Comstock aged rapidly), so to him other-Booker looks appropriately aged since Wounded Knee.
 
But destroying it at the end gives some clue as to what it was doing, suddenly having full control of her power and becoming almost omnipotent. Plus if the siphon WAS just suppressing her power and could do so at a distance there would be no need to have it set up in that tower like that surely right? And when Lady Comstock gets reanimated the Siphon has to be in close range to Liz for it to seemingly have a big effect on her.

The only way I could explain it was the Siphon was draining off excess power she would have naturally gained and it kept her sort of capped (there is like a vial of blue liquid in the siphon room) and maybe destroying it gave her all that power back that had previously been taken from her.

I was thinking that it suppressed her powers more so in that it drastically reduced them as seen in this.
So, if the siphon wasn't made (when the gigantic drop occurs) everything after the drop would be much higher. So at the end of the game when it's destroyed, if that graph was to be go on, there would be a massive spike due to its removal. The bolded part was either so that it limits her potential throughout Columbia (so range isn't effected) or because it makes it extremely difficult to destroy. I think the siphon is 'the leash' itself, not necessarily that which drains her (the speaker like things which is why they need to be near her to work). Most of that is just speculation though, I think I like your idea better.
 

Aaron

Member
I'm a little surprised that Dewitt turned out to be a real person. I was half-convinced he was a creation of Elizabeth, based on the dimwit character from the puppet shows.
 
Is the implication that everyone working on Monument Island abandoned the facility, or are they just all taking the day off for the raffle?
 
On my second play through and noticed a lot if banter is missing from my first play through. Elizabeth no longer mentioned the new arcade game when I approached it, and Booker no longer mentioned that we couldn't get past the security check and had to find another way.

Hopefully this corrects itself.
 
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