jacksepticeye
Member
Forgot about that graph actually.
-
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Bioshock Infinite | Official Spoiler Thread |
- Thread starter BruceLeeRoy
- Start date
Forgot about that graph actually.
Haunted
Member
See, now the OP is shit again, with too much stuff going on. I really liked it before when it was simple enough to convey everything needed to get the main points (+ neat easter eggs) and overly specific details were relegated to external links and discussion in the thread.
now it's just a million images and terrible to read and you can't copy and paste any of it and goddamnit bruceleeroy
The One Who Knocks
Member
No idea about those three* (or anything about the siphon in general really)E) and why they were on display) but the Luteces developed some machine prior to the siphon that allowed them to open tears. This machine was sabotaged by Fink under Comstock's orders in a failed attempt to murder them. In addition to this we know the ability to develop tears was developed prior to Anna's purchasing because otherwise they would never have been able to retrieve her in the first place.
*EDIT: Just to add, they were Elizabeth's childhood items (first two) and Elizabeth's first period (the menarche) but I don't know their relevance (other than the menarche which was when Elizabeth's powers spiked) or why they were in the container.
It seemed to me that when you flipped the switches the items appeared to age or de-age.
That makes more sense. It still implies to me that they're siphoning her power to make tears, though.
when you pull the triggers they become different versions of themselves. some become a different color, but the last one switched between clean and bloody. probably some more alternate universe stuff
. Thank you Irrational!BruceLeeRoy
Banned
I assume everyone was ordered into their homes after the false prophet starts his "rampage" This would explain why normal workers weren't found at monument island.
I really like the magazine-style layout of the OP. The only valid concern is the inability to quote selections.
To get around this, perhaps a text-only version could be posted elsewhere in the thread -- and the OP could simply link to it at the start, saying, "If you want to quote something, click here for the text version."
Alternatively, maybe the person who replied first could be contacted and would be willing to copy/paste new stuff where he had his old reply.
To get around this, perhaps a text-only version could be posted elsewhere in the thread -- and the OP could simply link to it at the start, saying, "If you want to quote something, click here for the text version."
Alternatively, maybe the person who replied first could be contacted and would be willing to copy/paste new stuff where he had his old reply.
AndrewDean84xX
Banned
Anyone?
The One Who Knocks
Member
I think everybody was evacuated when Elizabeth's powers increased.
I don't know if a Voxophone directly addreses this (I'm almost certain somebody says something about it) but related to this idea is the sign on the graph that says "Facility Unsafe" in addition to this Voxophone:
"Hattie Gerst
God's Blueprint
April the 19th, 1908
Location: Beggar's Wharf
Samuel always thought that the pew on Sunday went hand in hand with the desk on Monday. "Science is the slow revelation of God's blueprint." After two years in the Lamb's tower on Monument Island, he took ill with cancer of the stomach. I prayed to the Prophet, and the Prophet delivered unto us a miracle through his servant, Fink. I do not know if I will ever get used to a husband bound in a skeleton of metal, but ... better a Handyman than a dead one."
What age would Elizabeth have been in that year and two years prior? Does it match up with the graph?
I hope you don't mind that I'm going to redirect you to the original post for this (which is a pretty comprehensive overview of the ending):
"
*first graph*
*EatChildren's
*followed by Voxophones*
IM STILL CONFUSED ABOUT THIS WHOLE DROWNING BOOKERS / ELIZABETH THING
Don't worry it can sound confusing. Here are some other gaffers thoughts:
The Xtortionist said:
"Magnus said:
Only the Booker that went to (went through with?) the baptism was killed. Any Booker that decided to not even consider getting baptised, or maybe even the ones that chose to deny baptism as well, got to survive and live out the rest of their life.
A lot of entries refer to the baptism as a constant. Why is that? Why isn't it possible that there exists some subset of Bookers who never entertained the idea of a baptism, turned to Alcohol and gambling just like baptism-rejecting Booker did, and still managed to meet Anna's mom?
The One Who Knocks
Member
Because these other universes are irrelevant to the story in so much as how they are never referred to. That would be part of the third main theory about the ending. If this is what is shown in the final segment, then everything in the game was irrelevant, as this timeline would have always existed regardless of the game's events. Similarly, there are 'constants'. We don't know what every constant. In universes where Booker doesn't go to Wounded Knee a constant may prevent him from meeting Anna's mother/having Anna/ending up in debt.
The One Who Knocks
Member
That wouldn't reset the timeline? That would result in the exact opposite of what they want. If that were to happen, it would be a 'failed' Booker. They don't want Booker to bring Elizabeth anywhere, they want him to reset the timeline.
joeyjoejoeshabadoo
Member
There was a voxophone that explains it. Basically, Fink's brother was a composer and he would hear music through the tears that were popping up over town. He would then take the songs he heard and recompose them to sell them to citizens of Columbia.
jim2point0
Banned
Love that banner image! Lots of great information in that OP. I need to read through it when I have the time.
This game is a masterpiece.
This game is a masterpiece.
Comstock knows because he's the one who got the Luteces to steal Elizabeth in the first place.
Elizabeth knows - at the end, at least - because she's a time god who sees everything.
It's a much simpler explanation for why the post-credits scene exists than an explanation of the universe trying to prevent a paradox by destroying a timeline branch before it can start.
I'd almost rather not try to think about the ending as multiverses are very...messy. Anything that can happen is currently happening, will happen in the future, and already has happened. An infinite number of Bookers will do an infinite number of things and will turn into an infinite number of Comstocks through means that don't involve baptism. As Rosalind Lutece put it, their efforts to stop Comstock is like trying to put out a tide that will only come in again.
Levine NPR interview: http://onpoint.wbur.org/2013/04/02/bioshock
I finished BI on Sunday, haven't been able to stop thinking about and discussing it.
Some friends and I have been talking in email a lot about the characters, settings, themes, etc. I thought I'd post some of my random observations.
Regarding characters:
Comstock - Comstock's character seeing visions and being regarded as a prophet seems to be influenced by Joseph Smith. Though his "bearded warrior" appearance (Hall of Heroes) also looks to be influenced by the depiction of the abolitionist John Brown in John Steuart Curry's mural Bleeding Kansas:
Brown was a zealot who believed that violence was the only way to end slavery. Quite the opposite of Comstock, who was just fine with racial/ethnic oppression in Columbia.
Fink - I see Fink as an amalgamation of Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, and Albert Speer. He's the inventor, the organizer, and the industrialist. He's a war profiteer, too: He's the 'armaments minister' for Comstock's Founders, yet he also sells technology to the Vox in order to prolong the conflict. His efficient and highly organized factories (in Finkton Dock - did you see the men on their knees scrubbing the floor in time to the rhythm of the music and machinery?) run on the suffering of those he "employs." Very much like the weapons factories of Nazi Germany, in which Albert Speer used "disposable" slave labor to double or triple output.
The Lutece "twins": These two are so heavily influenced by Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead. Their perspective, their appearances, their subtle comedy, the coin flips... if you're not familiar with the story then check out the Wikipedia article and you'll see.
Influences and similarities between BI and other stories:
One of the first things I thought of after finishing BI was Pink Floyd's "The Wall" - both the album and the movie.
The album "The Wall" begins with the words "we came in?" and ends with the words "Isn't this where", indicating that the story told within the album is an endless cycle.
The Wall is about alienation and Elizabeth grew up alienated from her father and mother as well as from the entire world, locked up in her tower.
In The Wall, Pink's father was a soldier who was killed in World War 2.
In Bioshock Infinite Elizabeth's father "died" in both realities. Booker "died" when he was reborn as Comstock. And Booker "died" in the reality in which he sold Anna to Comstock - she said as much when she reminded Booker that he stayed in his office for the past 20 years, lost in regret and guilt over what he'd done.
In The Wall, the overprotective mother is a central figure in the story. Her overwhelming nature crushes young Pink's free spirit.
In Bioshock Infinite, Comstock keeps Elizabeth locked up in the tower as an extreme form of protection. But even more on point - the Songbird. The Songbird is ferociously protective of her, willing to destroy anyone and anything in its path in order to retrieve Elizabeth - even though its attacks to recover her endangered her and caused her harm. When she first tells Booker about the Songbird she said she loved it as a child because it would visit her and bring her books. But over time she grew to hate the Songbird because she realized it was her jailer.
In The Wall, Pink has a mental breakdown in which he "becomes" his Neo-Nazi alter ego. He hallucinates that he is a dictator, his concert is a rally, and his followers attack minorities. Then he fantasizes about an army of goose stepping hammers that march across the ruins of a city.
In Bioshock Infinite, Elizabeth is captured by the Songbird and taken to Comstock. Booker attempts to rescue her but the Songbird thwarts and kills him. Comstock has Elizabeth tortured and brainwashed to believe that Booker abandoned her, that he truly was the False Shepherd sent to mislead her, and that she should hate him for what he did. Comstock's prophecy told him that he would die before the prophecy's fulfillment and that it would be his seed that carries out the final vision of burning the mountains of man (warping Columbia in through space/time rifts to rain fire onto 'Sodom' aka the cities of the USA and possibly the rest of the world) and with Elizabeth brainwashed and Booker dead, the prophecy is fulfilled. Elizabeth accepts her role as Comstock's successor and warps Columbia to 1984, launching a surprise attack that burns NYC to the ground - that was the vision Booker first had of the burning city at the beginning of the game. She becomes the fanatical leader.
At the end of The Wall is The Trial. All of the subconscious forces that influenced Pink to build "the wall" of isolation put him on trial for showing feelings "of a human nature" - his overprotective mother, his wife, the schoolmaster, the prosecutor, and the judge all stand against him. Pink is found guilty and the wall is violently torn down.
After Elizabeth fulfilled Comstock's prophecy, she becomes regretful over her actions. So ~70 year old Elizabeth writes a note meant for her younger self, explaining how to take control of the Songbird. Then she brings Booker to the future, plucking him from moments after the Songbird took her back to Comstock. She gives Booker the note and sends him back to the past, armed with the information needed to defeat the Songbird and destroy the siphon. Booker rescues Elizabeth before Comstock's torture and brainwashing begin in earnest, thus averting the timeline in which Elizabeth succeeds Comstock and destroys New York. They board Comstock's airship and confront him in a small garden with the intent to kill him. Comstock attempts to rationalize the terrible things he's done, but Booker chokes and then drowns Comstock in a fit of rage over his mistreatment of Elizabeth. Then they take the airship to the tower/siphon and use the Songbird to destroy it - tearing down the wall, as it were. Once the siphon is destroyed Elizabeth's power is uncapped and she is able to see all possible futures. She warps herself, Booker, and the Songbird to the underwater city of Rapture (the setting of Bioshock 1) and drowns the Songbird in the ocean while she tries to comfort it - a mercy killing.
Then Elizabeth and Booker travel to a convergence point between a million different realities - each represented by a lighthouse. She explains constants and variables. She explains that even though Comstock is dead in that particular reality that he still exists in a million others. Booker says he wants to smother Comstock in his crib, preventing him from ever having existed. Elizabeth takes Booker to the scene of the baptism he rejected, explaining that in some realities he walked away and remained Booker DeWitt - and in others he accepted baptism and became Zachary Comstock. Then she and some Elizabeths from other realities proceed to drown Booker, who accepts his fate. A mercy killing of a man who spends his life either inflicting misery upon himself or inflicting misery upon others. The circle is broken: Booker never chooses to remain himself and sell his baby to Comstock. Nor does he choose to accept baptism and become Comstock. My question is - is this also a mercy killing of both Anna and Elizabeth? If Booker dies before choosing whether or not to be baptized then it means not only does "Elizabeth" cease to exist, then so does "Anna" because Booker presumably dies before meeting Anna's mother and getting her pregnant. It's uncertain whether or not Elizabeth could have ever led a normal life, even with the "leash" of the siphon still in place. And an unleashed Elizabeth who was constantly seeing all ends to all worlds would probably have eventually gone mad. Maybe she realized that in order to protect the world from her powers she had to also cease to exist.
One of the final scenes of the film The Wall is of Pink murmuring poems to himself. The poems were later released as full songs by Pink Floyd and Roger Waters. One of them is called Your Possible Pasts, which is obviously relevant in a story about possible outcomes...
they flutter behind you your possible pasts
some bright eyed and crazy some frightened and lost
a warning to anyone still in command
of their possible future to take care
in derelict sidings the poppies entwine
with cattle trucks lying in wait for the next time
do you remember me? how we used to be?
do you thing we should be closer?
she stood in the doorway the ghost of a smile
haunting her face like a cheap hotel sign
her cold eyes imploring the men in their macs
for the gold in their bags or the knives in their backs
stepping up boldly one put out his hand
he said, "i was just a child then now i'm only a man"
do you remember me? how we used to be?
do you thing we should be closer?
by the cold and religious we were taken in hand
shown how to feel good and told to feel bad
tongue tied and terrified we learned how to pray
now our feelings run deep and cold as the clay
and strung out behind us the banners and flags
of our possible pasts lie in tatters and rags
do you remember me? how we used to be?
do you thing we should be closer?
This song is generally interpreted to be a sort of warning to people to not stand idly by while atrocities are being committed - the Holocaust in particular.
I thought the lyrics of this song were very relevant. Looking back at your possible pasts, who you could have been - bright eyed and crazy or frightened and lost. A "warning" to anyone still in command of their possible future to take care - your sense of control of your future may be entirely an illusion, don't be so certain of it. Being taken by the "cold and religious" and indoctrinated about what to feel and when. Desensitized to the brutality that surrounds them, much like the citizens of Columbia who ignored the racism toward and inhumane treatment of other races. "Strung out behind us the banners and flags of our possible pasts lie in tatters and rags" - The game is full of banners and flags, literally. When you first arrive there are countless streaming red, white and blue banners. But once the Vox rise up those banners are tattered and destroyed, replaced with the long streaming red banners of the Vox (which grow more more numerous as you progress, culminating with the long red streaming banners covering the Vox zeppelins during the final battle.) You're altering possible futures and pasts as you open tears and shift the balance of the revolution in favor of the Vox.
I really can't wait to dig back in to see all the things I missed the first time around. Irrational put so much into the character dialogue, recordings, etc. It really is something else.
I hope FartOfWar is keeping tabs on this thread. If this were still the GFW Radio days I'd be really anxious to hear his whole deconstruction of this game. I hope he's feeling good about having been involved with producing the type of game that he would have spent a lot of time discussing in earnest if he were still a journalist.
Some friends and I have been talking in email a lot about the characters, settings, themes, etc. I thought I'd post some of my random observations.
Regarding characters:
Comstock - Comstock's character seeing visions and being regarded as a prophet seems to be influenced by Joseph Smith. Though his "bearded warrior" appearance (Hall of Heroes) also looks to be influenced by the depiction of the abolitionist John Brown in John Steuart Curry's mural Bleeding Kansas:
Brown was a zealot who believed that violence was the only way to end slavery. Quite the opposite of Comstock, who was just fine with racial/ethnic oppression in Columbia.
Fink - I see Fink as an amalgamation of Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, and Albert Speer. He's the inventor, the organizer, and the industrialist. He's a war profiteer, too: He's the 'armaments minister' for Comstock's Founders, yet he also sells technology to the Vox in order to prolong the conflict. His efficient and highly organized factories (in Finkton Dock - did you see the men on their knees scrubbing the floor in time to the rhythm of the music and machinery?) run on the suffering of those he "employs." Very much like the weapons factories of Nazi Germany, in which Albert Speer used "disposable" slave labor to double or triple output.
The Lutece "twins": These two are so heavily influenced by Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead. Their perspective, their appearances, their subtle comedy, the coin flips... if you're not familiar with the story then check out the Wikipedia article and you'll see.
Influences and similarities between BI and other stories:
One of the first things I thought of after finishing BI was Pink Floyd's "The Wall" - both the album and the movie.
The album "The Wall" begins with the words "we came in?" and ends with the words "Isn't this where", indicating that the story told within the album is an endless cycle.
The Wall is about alienation and Elizabeth grew up alienated from her father and mother as well as from the entire world, locked up in her tower.
In The Wall, Pink's father was a soldier who was killed in World War 2.
In Bioshock Infinite Elizabeth's father "died" in both realities. Booker "died" when he was reborn as Comstock. And Booker "died" in the reality in which he sold Anna to Comstock - she said as much when she reminded Booker that he stayed in his office for the past 20 years, lost in regret and guilt over what he'd done.
In The Wall, the overprotective mother is a central figure in the story. Her overwhelming nature crushes young Pink's free spirit.
In Bioshock Infinite, Comstock keeps Elizabeth locked up in the tower as an extreme form of protection. But even more on point - the Songbird. The Songbird is ferociously protective of her, willing to destroy anyone and anything in its path in order to retrieve Elizabeth - even though its attacks to recover her endangered her and caused her harm. When she first tells Booker about the Songbird she said she loved it as a child because it would visit her and bring her books. But over time she grew to hate the Songbird because she realized it was her jailer.
In The Wall, Pink has a mental breakdown in which he "becomes" his Neo-Nazi alter ego. He hallucinates that he is a dictator, his concert is a rally, and his followers attack minorities. Then he fantasizes about an army of goose stepping hammers that march across the ruins of a city.
In Bioshock Infinite, Elizabeth is captured by the Songbird and taken to Comstock. Booker attempts to rescue her but the Songbird thwarts and kills him. Comstock has Elizabeth tortured and brainwashed to believe that Booker abandoned her, that he truly was the False Shepherd sent to mislead her, and that she should hate him for what he did. Comstock's prophecy told him that he would die before the prophecy's fulfillment and that it would be his seed that carries out the final vision of burning the mountains of man (warping Columbia in through space/time rifts to rain fire onto 'Sodom' aka the cities of the USA and possibly the rest of the world) and with Elizabeth brainwashed and Booker dead, the prophecy is fulfilled. Elizabeth accepts her role as Comstock's successor and warps Columbia to 1984, launching a surprise attack that burns NYC to the ground - that was the vision Booker first had of the burning city at the beginning of the game. She becomes the fanatical leader.
At the end of The Wall is The Trial. All of the subconscious forces that influenced Pink to build "the wall" of isolation put him on trial for showing feelings "of a human nature" - his overprotective mother, his wife, the schoolmaster, the prosecutor, and the judge all stand against him. Pink is found guilty and the wall is violently torn down.
After Elizabeth fulfilled Comstock's prophecy, she becomes regretful over her actions. So ~70 year old Elizabeth writes a note meant for her younger self, explaining how to take control of the Songbird. Then she brings Booker to the future, plucking him from moments after the Songbird took her back to Comstock. She gives Booker the note and sends him back to the past, armed with the information needed to defeat the Songbird and destroy the siphon. Booker rescues Elizabeth before Comstock's torture and brainwashing begin in earnest, thus averting the timeline in which Elizabeth succeeds Comstock and destroys New York. They board Comstock's airship and confront him in a small garden with the intent to kill him. Comstock attempts to rationalize the terrible things he's done, but Booker chokes and then drowns Comstock in a fit of rage over his mistreatment of Elizabeth. Then they take the airship to the tower/siphon and use the Songbird to destroy it - tearing down the wall, as it were. Once the siphon is destroyed Elizabeth's power is uncapped and she is able to see all possible futures. She warps herself, Booker, and the Songbird to the underwater city of Rapture (the setting of Bioshock 1) and drowns the Songbird in the ocean while she tries to comfort it - a mercy killing.
Then Elizabeth and Booker travel to a convergence point between a million different realities - each represented by a lighthouse. She explains constants and variables. She explains that even though Comstock is dead in that particular reality that he still exists in a million others. Booker says he wants to smother Comstock in his crib, preventing him from ever having existed. Elizabeth takes Booker to the scene of the baptism he rejected, explaining that in some realities he walked away and remained Booker DeWitt - and in others he accepted baptism and became Zachary Comstock. Then she and some Elizabeths from other realities proceed to drown Booker, who accepts his fate. A mercy killing of a man who spends his life either inflicting misery upon himself or inflicting misery upon others. The circle is broken: Booker never chooses to remain himself and sell his baby to Comstock. Nor does he choose to accept baptism and become Comstock. My question is - is this also a mercy killing of both Anna and Elizabeth? If Booker dies before choosing whether or not to be baptized then it means not only does "Elizabeth" cease to exist, then so does "Anna" because Booker presumably dies before meeting Anna's mother and getting her pregnant. It's uncertain whether or not Elizabeth could have ever led a normal life, even with the "leash" of the siphon still in place. And an unleashed Elizabeth who was constantly seeing all ends to all worlds would probably have eventually gone mad. Maybe she realized that in order to protect the world from her powers she had to also cease to exist.
One of the final scenes of the film The Wall is of Pink murmuring poems to himself. The poems were later released as full songs by Pink Floyd and Roger Waters. One of them is called Your Possible Pasts, which is obviously relevant in a story about possible outcomes...
they flutter behind you your possible pasts
some bright eyed and crazy some frightened and lost
a warning to anyone still in command
of their possible future to take care
in derelict sidings the poppies entwine
with cattle trucks lying in wait for the next time
do you remember me? how we used to be?
do you thing we should be closer?
she stood in the doorway the ghost of a smile
haunting her face like a cheap hotel sign
her cold eyes imploring the men in their macs
for the gold in their bags or the knives in their backs
stepping up boldly one put out his hand
he said, "i was just a child then now i'm only a man"
do you remember me? how we used to be?
do you thing we should be closer?
by the cold and religious we were taken in hand
shown how to feel good and told to feel bad
tongue tied and terrified we learned how to pray
now our feelings run deep and cold as the clay
and strung out behind us the banners and flags
of our possible pasts lie in tatters and rags
do you remember me? how we used to be?
do you thing we should be closer?
This song is generally interpreted to be a sort of warning to people to not stand idly by while atrocities are being committed - the Holocaust in particular.
I thought the lyrics of this song were very relevant. Looking back at your possible pasts, who you could have been - bright eyed and crazy or frightened and lost. A "warning" to anyone still in command of their possible future to take care - your sense of control of your future may be entirely an illusion, don't be so certain of it. Being taken by the "cold and religious" and indoctrinated about what to feel and when. Desensitized to the brutality that surrounds them, much like the citizens of Columbia who ignored the racism toward and inhumane treatment of other races. "Strung out behind us the banners and flags of our possible pasts lie in tatters and rags" - The game is full of banners and flags, literally. When you first arrive there are countless streaming red, white and blue banners. But once the Vox rise up those banners are tattered and destroyed, replaced with the long streaming red banners of the Vox (which grow more more numerous as you progress, culminating with the long red streaming banners covering the Vox zeppelins during the final battle.) You're altering possible futures and pasts as you open tears and shift the balance of the revolution in favor of the Vox.
I really can't wait to dig back in to see all the things I missed the first time around. Irrational put so much into the character dialogue, recordings, etc. It really is something else.
I hope FartOfWar is keeping tabs on this thread. If this were still the GFW Radio days I'd be really anxious to hear his whole deconstruction of this game. I hope he's feeling good about having been involved with producing the type of game that he would have spent a lot of time discussing in earnest if he were still a journalist.
The One Who Knocks
Member
It would be a simpler explanation, but it would be completely irrelevant to the game.
As for the first bolded. that explanation precedes Bioshock Infinite
The explanation for the ending is simply to relate the above theory to the events of Bioshock Infinite to, hopefully, explain it in an understandable way.
For the second bolded, this would be true if not for Elizabeth gaining the ability to see all the doors (timelines) at the end of the game and conclude that this baptism was the point of origin for any Comstock. She doesn't just kill Bookers that accept, she drowns them all, which erases the possibility of any Comstock in any universe, because otherwise the paradox exists (since her existence is tied to the existence of Comstock, if there's no probability of him, there's no probability of her). While there are an infinite amount of everything, these infinites are all limited by constants.
EDIT: The above is very interesting.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
CambriaRising
Member
Wondering the same thing.
Pretty sure we're approaching "we'll just have to agree to disagree" territory here.
If we narrow our scope to simply the timelines presented, then yeah, possibly everything's happy. If we look at the sum total of all timeline's, Elizabeth's not gonna come close to eliminating every instance where Booker becomes a mass-murderer, by Comstock or any other name. If truly every decision creates a branch, then there'll always be a branch where she decided to not drown Comstock or Booker. Part of the messiness of multiverses is that for every choice she makes, there's another elizabeth in the exact same situation who makes the other.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, it's one of the first tears you see, I think.
Dance Inferno
Unconfirmed Member
I think it's due to them just fucking around in the world..also it gives the player a clue that something is strange in this world.
Remember how when the male Lutece was painting the female lutece, but was secretly painting a portrait of himself?
There comedic cheshire characters. Very alice in wonderland esque and i'm sure it was done in the same vain as the painting example.
The One Who Knocks
Member
Ah, that's why. I had thought the same thing at first but this isn't actually the case. When Elizabeth becomes omnipotent, she drowns every Booker at the baptism. This equates Comstock's existence with the probability of a paradox. So the variable of accepting is erased.
However there cannot exist universes where Booker fails, and those where Booker succeeds. If Elizabeth/Booker succeeds a single time, the probability of her ever failing is erased, since the probability of Comstock existing is erased (due to it leading to a paradox). There still may exist an infinite set of universes where Booker rejects and becomes a mass murderer; where he murders Anna and everybody else, but the probability of Comstock leads to the certainty of the paradox.
Perhaps this may be more clear below. It's the original post where I elaborated further on it so it maybe more clear/easier to follow thought-wise
aw, it's good. support the Sess.
Mister_Bubbles
Member
It's an accurate statement about the BioShock games thus far. I don't think the 'System Shock' universe is supposed to be part of that, if that's what you're meaning.
If I remember the logic correctly, Comstock's existence creates a paradox since he'll steal anna, raise elizabeth, who'll then travel back in time to kill Comstock. While that sequence of events does in fact raise the paradox, it's the sequence itself, not the singular event of Comstock's existence. It's possible that in some random roll in Comstock's sequence could be reduced to zero, since then it creates the paradox.
For example, his sterilization. Given the unreliability of cancer, perhaps it's that randomization that get's reduced to zero. A fertile Comstock can produce an heir, and then he has no need to abduct babies. Or hell, maybe Lady Comstock becomes unfaithful, and he gets an heir that way.
The lighthouse, man, city trope is a constant, she was right when she said always.
The One Who Knocks
Member
It's not about what does happen, it's about the probability. Lutece refers to the multiverse not as a multiverse but a probability space, so if the probability ever exists, it happens
EDIT: This also feeds into the idea of constants and variables. Constants occur in all timelines (probability lines if that makes it easier) that fulfill certain events while variables may occur differently, even if everything prior to that was precisely the same.
EDIT: Here's the Voxophones supporting this:
A Window
October the 15th, 1893
Location: Founder's Books
Brother, what Comstock failed to understand is that our contraption is a window not into prophecy, but probability. But his money means the Lutece Field could become the Lutece Tear - a window between worlds. A window through which you and I might finally be together.
A Theory On Our "Death"
November the 1st, 1909
Location: Market District
Comstock has sabotaged our contraption. Yet, we are not dead. A theory: we are scattered amongst the possibility space. But my brother and I are together, and so, I am content. He is not. The business with the girl lies unresolved. But perhaps there is one who can finish it in our stead.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
I think that was my main issue with this whole thing. Technically, if we're sticking with the idea that every possible action has it's own universe, there should already be a universe where every variable has occured, including every single action taken in the game. There should be loads of them. Infinte, it's in the title, right?
Now, if there are an infinite number of universes with every single possibilty played out, we'd have to see the universe where Booker decided to become Muslim or the reality where he accidently swallows a fly or spontaneously combusts or gets hit by a truck etc. This isn't practical and wouldn't be nearly as entertaining... no that's a lie; it'd be fucking hilarious... so, it's just not practical in an entertainment product.
Sorian suggested something quite interesting. The game shows (rather than tells) us a huge number of strictly binary choices: Booker either accepts or rejects the washing of his sins; the guns are either there or not there; the gunsmith is either alive or dead etc. In the end, because Elizabeth is basically a God, breaks the binary nature by taking the third option at the baptism and drowning Booker. We don't take the multiple Elizabeth's drowning Booker literally; it is symbolic of TimeLord!Elizabeth "cleansing" the probability-verse of potential Comstocks (by reducing the probability of his being created to zero), just like the binary choices are symbolic of the inifinite variety and possibilities of the multiple universes.
...or summink like that.
Nope, that's not what I mean. Even in the universe of Infinite, there are subsets of constants (such as the coin flip), so there are a lot of branches that don't have lighthouses for example
If the link provided is indeed what is occurring (Comstock would create a paradox, so the universe renders the probability of Comstock existing zero), I would argue that Comstock's simple existence does not create a paradox. Rather, some event down the line places him on the "oh yeah, it creates a paradox now" road, and that event will fail to happen. Comstock existing will increase the likelihood of a paradox, but does not guarantee.
Then again, this is applying real world theoretical stuff to a video game, and will likely all be rendered moot by DLC or extended universe works explaining stuff.
The subset of the coin flip constant is that Booker can say heads or tails beforehand. The subset of the lighthouse constant is that the city you enter is different. The result of the coin flip and the presence of the lighthouse are still constants.
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
The thing it is, it loses its meaning in all the rest of the translations of the game. Yeah it could be a meta joke Ken Levine wrote in english that couldnt be translated to other languages, but sometimes writers thing about those things and try to do them.
Still yeah, it could be a very obscure meta joke, and he didnt give a shit about losing it during translations.
Going to watch it tomorrow while working. There are people there that I dont give a fuck (arthur gies), but after watching the amazing review Sessler makes of the game, with opinions I completly agree on point by point, could be cool watching it.