• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Bioshock Infinite | Official Spoiler Thread |

Just finished the game. Enjoyed it a lot, but I think the ending didn't really have the same impact for me that it did for most.

Not saying the story wasn't well done, because it was, I've just always had a tendency to not really dig 'time travel/alternate dimensions' as plot devices in narratives. It's totally a personal thing.

I did dig the references to the original Bioshock though- that was cool.
 

DatDude

Banned
I finished BI on Sunday, haven't been able to stop thinking about and discussing it.

Some friends and I have been talking in email a lot about the characters, settings, themes, etc. I thought I'd post some of my random observations.

Regarding characters:

Comstock - Comstock's character seeing visions and being regarded as a prophet seems to be influenced by Joseph Smith. Though his "bearded warrior" appearance (Hall of Heroes) also looks to be influenced by the depiction of the abolitionist John Brown in John Steuart Curry mural Bleeding Kansas:

John_Brown_Painting.JPG


Brown was a zealot who believed that violence was the only way to end slavery. Quite the opposite of Comstock, who was just fine with racial/ethnic oppression in Columbia.

Fink - I see Fink as an amalgamation of Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, and Albert Speer. He's the inventor, the organizer, and the industrialist. He's a war profiteer, too: He's the 'armaments minister' for Comstock's Founders, yet he also sells technology to the Vox in order to prolong the conflict. His efficient and highly organized factories (in Finkton Dock - did you see the men on their knees scrubbing the floor in time to the rhythm of the music and machinery?) run on the suffering of those he "employs." Very much like the weapons factories of Nazi Germany, in which Albert Speer used "disposable" slave labor to double or triple output.

The Lutece "twins": These two are so heavily influenced by Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead. Their perspective, their appearances, their subtle comedy, the coin flips... if you're not familiar with the story then check out the Wikipedia article and you'll see.

Influences and similarities between BI and other stories:

One of the first things I thought of after finishing BI was Pink Floyd's "The Wall" - both the album and the movie.

The album "The Wall" begins with the words "we came in?" and ends with the words "Isn't this where", indicating that the story told within the album is an endless cycle.

The Wall is about alienation and Elizabeth grew up alienated from her father and mother as well as from the entire world, locked up in her tower.

In The Wall, Pink's father was a soldier who was killed in World War 2.

In Bioshock Infinite Elizabeth's father "died" in both realities. Booker "died" when he was reborn as Comstock. And Booker "died" in the reality in which he sold Anna to Comstock - she said as much when she reminded Booker that he stayed in his office for the past 20 years, lost in regret and guilt over what he'd done.

In The Wall, the overprotective mother is a central figure in the story. Her overwhelming nature crushes young Pink's free spirit.

In Bioshock Infinite, Comstock keeps Elizabeth locked up in the tower as an extreme form of protection. But even more on point - the Songbird. The Songbird is ferociously protective of her, willing to destroy anyone and anything in its path in order to retrieve Elizabeth - even though its attacks to recover her endangered her and caused her harm. When she first tells Booker about the Songbird she said she loved it as a child because it would visit her and bring her books. But over time she grew to hate the Songbird because she realized it was her jailer.

In The Wall, Pink has a mental breakdown in which he "becomes" his Neo-Nazi alter ego. He hallucinates that he is a dictator, his concert is a rally, and his followers attack minorities. Then he fantasizes about an army of goose stepping hammers that march across the ruins of a city.

tumblr_m8dxrpZn2W1ra9om2o1_500.jpg


In Bioshock Infinite, Elizabeth is captured by the Songbird and taken to Comstock. Booker attempts to rescue her but the Songbird thwarts and kills him. Comstock has Elizabeth tortured and brainwashed to believe that Booker abandoned her, that he truly was the False Shepherd sent to mislead her, and that she should hate him for what he did. Comstock's prophecy told him that he would die before the prophecy's fulfillment and that it would be his seed that carries out the final vision of burning the mountains of man (warping Columbia in through space/time rifts to rain fire onto 'Sodom' aka the cities of the USA and possibly the rest of the world) and with Elizabeth brainwashed and Booker dead, the prophecy is fulfilled. Elizabeth accepts her role as Comstock's successor and warps Columbia to 1984, launching a surprise attack that burns NYC to the ground - that was the vision Booker first had of the burning city at the beginning of the game. She becomes the fanatical leader.

At the end of The Wall is The Trial. All of the subconscious forces that influenced Pink to build "the wall" of isolation put him on trial for showing feelings "of a human nature" - his overprotective mother, his wife, the schoolmaster, the prosecutor, and the judge all stand against him. Pink is found guilty and the wall is violently torn down.

After Elizabeth fulfilled Comstock's prophecy, she becomes regretful over her actions. So ~70 year old Elizabeth writes a note meant for her younger self, explaining how to take control of the Songbird. Then she brings Booker to the future, plucking him from moments after the Songbird took her back to Comstock. She gives Booker the note and sends him back to the past, armed with the information needed to defeat the Songbird and destroy the siphon. Booker rescues Elizabeth before Comstock's torture and brainwashing begin in earnest, thus averting the timeline in which Elizabeth succeeds Comstock and destroys New York. They board Comstock's airship and confront him in a small garden with the intent to kill him. Comstock attempts to rationalize the terrible things he's done, but Booker chokes and then drowns Comstock in a fit of rage over his mistreatment of Elizabeth. Then they take the airship to the tower/siphon and use the Songbird to destroy it - tearing down the wall, as it were. Once the siphon is destroyed Elizabeth's power is uncapped and she is able to see all possible futures. She warps herself, Booker, and the Songbird to the underwater city of Rapture (the setting of Bioshock 1) and drowns the Songbird in the ocean while she tries to comfort it - a mercy killing.

Then Elizabeth and Booker travel to a convergence point between a million different realities - each represented by a lighthouse. She explains constants and variables. She explains that even though Comstock is dead in that particular reality that he still exists in a million others. Booker says he wants to smother Comstock in his crib, preventing him from ever having existed. Elizabeth takes Booker to the scene of the baptism he rejected, explaining that in some realities he walked away and remained Booker DeWitt - and in others he accepted baptism and became Zachary Comstock. Then she and some Elizabeths from other realities proceed to drown Booker, who accepts his fate. A mercy killing of a man who spends his life either inflicting misery upon himself or inflicting misery upon others. The circle is broken: Booker never chooses to remain himself and sell his baby to Comstock. Nor does he choose to accept baptism and become Comstock. My question is - is this also a mercy killing of both Anna and Elizabeth? If Booker dies before choosing whether or not to be baptized then it means not only does "Elizabeth" cease to exist, then so does "Anna" because Booker presumably dies before meeting Anna's mother and getting her pregnant. It's uncertain whether or not Elizabeth could have ever led a normal life, even with the "leash" of the siphon still in place. And an unleashed Elizabeth who was constantly seeing all ends to all worlds would probably have eventually gone mad. Maybe she realized that in order to protect the world from her powers she had to also cease to exist.

One of the final scenes of the film The Wall is of Pink murmuring poems to himself. The poems were later released as full songs by Pink Floyd and Roger Waters. One of them is called Your Possible Pasts, which is obviously relevant in a story about possible outcomes...

they flutter behind you your possible pasts
some bright eyed and crazy some frightened and lost
a warning to anyone still in command
of their possible future to take care
in derelict sidings the poppies entwine
with cattle trucks lying in wait for the next time
do you remember me? how we used to be?
do you thing we should be closer?
she stood in the doorway the ghost of a smile
haunting her face like a cheap hotel sign
her cold eyes imploring the men in their macs
for the gold in their bags or the knives in their backs
stepping up boldly one put out his hand
he said, "i was just a child then now i'm only a man"
do you remember me? how we used to be?
do you thing we should be closer?
by the cold and religious we were taken in hand
shown how to feel good and told to feel bad
tongue tied and terrified we learned how to pray
now our feelings run deep and cold as the clay
and strung out behind us the banners and flags
of our possible pasts lie in tatters and rags
do you remember me? how we used to be?
do you thing we should be closer?

This song is generally interpreted to be a sort of warning to people to not stand idly by while atrocities are being committed - the Holocaust in particular.

I thought the lyrics of this song were very relevant. Looking back at your possible pasts, who you could have been - bright eyed and crazy or frightened and lost. A "warning" to anyone still in command of their possible future to take care - your sense of control of your future may be entirely an illusion, don't be so certain of it. Being taken by the "cold and religious" and indoctrinated about what to feel and when. Desensitized to the brutality that surrounds them, much like the citizens of Columbia who ignored the racism toward and inhumane treatment of other races. "Strung out behind us the banners and flags of our possible pasts lie in tatters and rags" - The game is full of banners and flags, literally. When you first arrive there are countless streaming red, white and blue banners. But once the Vox rise up those banners are tattered and destroyed, replaced with the long streaming red banners of the Vox (which grow more more numerous as you progress, culminating with the long red streaming banners covering the Vox zeppelins during the final battle.) You're altering possible futures and pasts as you open tears and shift the balance of the revolution in favor of the Vox.

I really can't wait to dig back in to see all the things I missed the first time around. Irrational put so much into the character dialogue, recordings, etc. It really is something else.

I hope FartOfWar is keeping tabs on this thread. If this were still the GFW Radio days I'd be really anxious to hear his whole deconstruction of this game. I hope he's feeling good about having been involved with producing the type of game that he would have spent a lot of time discussing in earnest if he were still a journalist.

Awesome post :)
 

Korey

Member
So I've finally wrapped my head around the ending (much thanks to you guys!), but there is still one reference which i do not get: when Booker and the Luteces are in the boat - the argument about Booker not rowing. Could someone care to explain that bit please?

I took it as a meta-commentary on Booker: "Does He Row?"

He Row = Hero

ie- is Booker a Hero? The answer is no. He's a killer.

Nope, they were having wordplay on tenses like at the end of the game. You won't understand what they're talking about when the game starts, but it makes sense afterwards.

The exchange is:

"I'd greatly appreciate it if you could assist!"
"Why don't you ask him?"
"There's no point in asking."
"Why not?"
"Because he doesn't row."
"He doesn't row?
"No. He doesn't row."
"Ah. I see what you mean."

He's saying that he "doesn't row in this scene" because they've done this many times before and in the future, and in none of them does he ever row. And he's right, because you didn't, don't, and won't row.
 
If the link provided is indeed what is occurring (Comstock would create a paradox, so the universe renders the probability of Comstock existing zero), I would argue that Comstock's simple existence does not create a paradox. Rather, some event down the line places him on the "oh yeah, it creates a paradox now" road, and that event will fail to happen. Comstock existing will increase the likelihood of a paradox, but does not guarantee.

Then again, this is applying real world theoretical stuff to a video game, and will likely all be rendered moot by DLC or extended universe works explaining stuff.

It doesn't need to guarantee it, the probability just needs to exist.

A Window
October the 15th, 1893
Location: Founder's Books
Brother, what Comstock failed to understand is that our contraption is a window not into prophecy, but probability. But his money means the Lutece Field could become the Lutece Tear - a window between worlds. A window through which you and I might finally be together.

A Theory On Our "Death"
November the 1st, 1909
Location: Market District
Comstock has sabotaged our contraption. Yet, we are not dead. A theory: we are scattered amongst the possibility space. But my brother and I are together, and so, I am content. He is not. The business with the girl lies unresolved. But perhaps there is one who can finish it in our stead.

I would actually concur with you that technically they don't need to force that decision to be a constant (but then again, maybe they do; another constant could be created in those timelines which once again result in the paradox) but could make something else a constant to avoid the paradox but the easiest solution, that will definitively erase the probability of any of the game's events occuring (and that's what both the Luteces, and Booker, want) is what's shown, since every universe of Booker's that share the same past up to the baptism will attend the baptism. Either way though, Elizabeth chooses this moment specifically, to make the constant Booker rejecting the baptism, and she is the only one with the power to simultaneously alter an infinite set of universes.
 
Is the implication that everyone working on Monument Island abandoned the facility, or are they just all taking the day off for the raffle?

Some people here had an interesting theory where people that worked on the facility got cancer and are the ones that were turned into Handymans.
It could explain about them changing from handymans with that times hair and moustache to bald men.
 

DatDude

Banned
Nope, they were having wordplay on tenses like at the end of the game. You won't understand what they're talking about when the game starts, but it makes sense afterwards.

The exchange is:

"I'd greatly appreciate it if you could assist!"
"Why don't you ask him?"
"There's no point in asking."
"Why not?"
"Because he doesn't row."
"He doesn't row?
"No. He doesn't row."
"Ah. I see what you mean."

He's saying that he "doesn't row in this scene" because they've done this many times before and in the future, and in none of them does he ever row.

Yup. I also think at this part of the exchange:

Because he doesn't row."
"He doesn't row?
"No. He doesn't row."
"Ah. I see what you mean."


I think female lutche thought he was saying "he doesn't know?"

An that's why he says plain "He doesn't row"..followed by "I see what you mean"
 

Korey

Member
Is the implication that everyone working on Monument Island abandoned the facility, or are they just all taking the day off for the raffle?

Elizabeth became increasingly unstable as she aged. When she got near her current age of 20 the whole area became really dangerous to the point where the facility had to be abandoned by normal people. That's why there's all those danger signs all over the place near the siphon

Yup. I also think at this part of the exchange:

Because he doesn't row."
"He doesn't row?
"No. He doesn't row."
"Ah. I see what you mean."


I think female lutche thought he was saying "he doesn't know?"

An that's why he says plain "He doesn't row"..followed by "I see what you mean"

The subtitles say row and include the emphasis on the bolded words
 

Salamando

Member
It doesn't need to guarantee it, the probability just needs to exist.

A Window
October the 15th, 1893
Location: Founder's Books
Brother, what Comstock failed to understand is that our contraption is a window not into prophecy, but probability. But his money means the Lutece Field could become the Lutece Tear - a window between worlds. A window through which you and I might finally be together.

A Theory On Our "Death"
November the 1st, 1909
Location: Market District
Comstock has sabotaged our contraption. Yet, we are not dead. A theory: we are scattered amongst the possibility space. But my brother and I are together, and so, I am content. He is not. The business with the girl lies unresolved. But perhaps there is one who can finish it in our stead.

I would actually concur with you that technically they don't need to force that decision to be a constant (but then again, maybe they do; another constant could be created in those timelines which once again result in the paradox) but could make something else a constant to avoid the paradox. Either way though, Elizabeth chooses this moment specifically, to make the constant Booker rejecting the baptism, and she is the only one with the power to simultaneously alter an infinite set of universes.

That almost has to be incorrect. Chronologically speaking, the earliest known branch would be the Lutece's conception. If the likelihood of Comstock creating a paradox is non-zero, then any branch before that which would lead to that action has a non-zero chance of causing a paradox as well. If the criteria for a Branch to be inaccessible is only that it has a non-zero chance of creating a paradox, I'm pretty sure nothing would exist. Or manipulating the past is impossible. One of the two.
 
That almost has to be incorrect.* Chronologically speaking, the earliest known branch would be the Lutece's conception. If the likelihood of Comstock creating a paradox is non-zero, then any branch before that which would lead to that action has a non-zero chance of causing a paradox as well. If the criteria for a Branch to be inaccessible is only that it has a non-zero chance of creating a paradox, I'm pretty sure nothing would exist. Or manipulating the past is impossible. One of the two.

The Lutece branch doesn't necessarily occur before the baptism branch. 10th August 1890 is when female Lutece develops the ability to make particles fail to fall and 29th December 1890 does, indeed, occur after it (and thus the baptism) but the specific date that tears were discovered is never stated so it doesn't have to occur ahead of the baptism. EDIT: *It is correct though, it's mentioned multiple times. If it was only mentioned once I could agree with you but twice? And then backed up by the idea of constants and variables? I don't agree.

As for the bolded, if this was a traditional multiverse the bolded would be correct but "constants and variables" limits this. Constants are created to prevent a paradox to occuring. As for the 'things in the past can't be manipulated', time is relative to the timeline. If you go to manipulate something in the past you go into a new timeline, where precisely the same thing occured only changes at that point, avoiding a paradox. Elizabeth is an exception to this since, as she says, she can see, and open, all doors. She has control over the probability space. She can simultanesouly alter everything, in every probability. The Luteces can't do that, they can only manipulate a single timeline, and the timeline they manipulate is, itself, a new timeline (as it creates a timeline where they don't interfere).

EDIT: Also, pre-emptively, Elizabeth is the only person who can alter every multiverse simultaneously and simultaneously create a paradox in every universe, that's what makes her, at the end of the game, so unique.

EDIT: Korey, probably but, again, we don't know what new constants would occur if that were to happen. It would also interfere with the Lutece's desire, since they don't want to manipulate Booker into murdering them.

EDIT: Thank you for the above image!
 

FloatOn

Member
Just finished the game minutes ago. I suddenly feel the need to rewatch the movies:

12 Monkeys
Time Crimes
Triangle
Groundhog Day
Primer
Source Code

Amazing story.
 
Loving the ridiculous, far-reaching theories in here.

I really liked the story overall, only big thing I found lacking was a complete lack of explanation of the tonics (for me at least, I only found about 50 of the voxophones so maybe there's info there.

In BioShock the plasmids were a huge part of the story, and by the end you knew how they worked, how they were created, and they're impact on Rapture and it's culture were big parts in the story.

I guess you're just supposed to accept that they're Infinite's version of plasmids and assume they work the same way? I saw in the thread that people assume they're too expensive or unstable for everyone to use, but is that a guess or did I miss an explanatory diary?

Otherwise very cool. The Rapture cameo was awesome, really threw me for a loop there thinking that they were going to be directly related. Bet Leving is shaking his head at all the earnest "Songbird crashed into the plane" speculation.
 

DatDude

Banned
Loving the ridiculous, far-reaching theories in here.

I really liked the story overall, only big thing I found lacking was a complete lack of explanation of the tonics (for me at least, I only found about 50 of the voxophones so maybe there's info there.

In BioShock the plasmids were a huge part of the story, and by the end you knew how they worked, how they were created, and they're impact on Rapture and it's culture were big parts in the story.

I guess you're just supposed to accept that they're Infinite's version of plasmids and assume they work the same way? I saw in the thread that people assume they're too expensive or unstable for everyone to use, but is that a guess or did I miss an explanatory diary?

Otherwise very cool. The Rapture cameo was awesome, really threw me for a loop there thinking that they were going to be directly related. Bet Leving is shaking his head at all the earnest "Songbird crashed into the plane" speculation.

Alot of people are theorizing since the Song Bird design was stolen from Rapture's Big Daddy that so were the plasmids
 

Salamando

Member
The Lutece branch doesn't necessarily occur before the baptism branch. 10th August 1890 is when female Lutece develops the ability to make particles fail to fall and 29th December 1890 does, indeed, occur after it (and thus the baptism) but the specific date that tears were discovered is never stated so it doesn't have to occur ahead of the baptism. EDIT: *It is correct though, it's mentioned multiple times. If it was only mentioned once I could agree with you but twice? And then backed up by the idea of constants and variables? I don't agree.

As for the bolded, if this was a traditional multiverse the bolded would be correct but "constants and variables" limits this. Constants are created to prevent a paradox to occuring. As for the 'things in the past can't be manipulated', time is relative to the timeline. If you go to manipulate something in the past you go into a new timeline, where precisely the same thing occured only changes at that point, avoiding a paradox. Elizabeth is an exception to this since, as she says, she can see, and open, all doors. She has control over the probability space. She can simultanesouly alter everything, in every probability. The Luteces can't do that, they can only manipulate a single timeline, and the timeline they manipulate is, itself, a new timeline (as it creates a timeline where they don't interfere).

EDIT: Also, pre-emptively, Elizabeth is the only person who can alter every multiverse simultaneously and simultaneously create a paradox in every universe, that's what makes her, at the end of the game, so unique.

EDIT: Korey, probably but, again, we don't know what new constants would occur if that were to happen. It would also interfere with the Lutece's desire, since they don't want to manipulate Booker into murdering them.

EDIT: Thank you for the above image!

We're likely reading into the entire constants and variables thing completely differently. I see most of the constants as only being constant for the rather small frame of reference, but not universally. You seem to hold onto it a lot stronger than I. I'm content with that.

At this point, all I'd like to say - I prefer my multiverses to be a lot more like Sliders' version of multiverses. We started out with infinite earth's, with some earth's having exact identical outcomes over eons, only to be branched by some random event. No new earths are ever created...it's just for every combination of probablistic outcomes, there exists some number of earths where that combination occurred.

Also means somewhere there's an earth where Booker and Elizabeth are both dinosaurs.
 

Neiteio

Member
Hey guys, I have a request: I showed the Adam Sessler review to some friends and blew their minds, and I'd like to shoot them a link to a video of the intro, ideally from the lighthouse through Raffle Square. Ideally it would feature the Lutece appearance after you arrive in Columbia (the coin toss one). Anyone have any HD videos of this with no loudmouths commentating in the background?
 
Alot of people are theorizing since the Song Bird design was stolen from Rapture's Big Daddy that so were the plasmids
Doesn't really make sense though, you'd still need the Adam provided by the slugs, and that's assuming they had a world-class biologist in Columbia. The tonics seem to be improved compared to plasmids too. I'm guessing you're just supposed to suspend disbelief for the tonics.

I don't buy the Big Daddy thing either, is there actually a diary that explains that Fink saw Rapture?
 

Trigger

Member
Doesn't really make sense though, you'd still need the Adam provided by the slugs, and that's assuming they had a world-class biologist in Columbia. The tonics seem to be improved compared to plasmids too. I'm guessing you're just supposed to suspend disbelief for the tonics.

I don't buy the Big Daddy thing either, is there actually a diary that explains that Fink saw Rapture?

Not explicitly, no. The foreshadowing is there though.

"Dear brother, these holes in the thin air continue to pay dividends. I know not which musician you borrow your notes from, but if he has half the genius of the biologist I now observe, well...then you are to be the Mozart of Columbia."

x

Who is the biologist if not someone from Rapture?

EDIT- Oh wait, I'm forgetting another one:

These holes have shown me yet another wonder, though I've yet to see the application for it. They illuminate a merger of machine and man that is somehow the lesser, yet the greater, of both parties. The process seems to be irreversible. Perhaps, though, Comstock will have some need of this kind of thing to keep watch in that tower of his.
 
The whole thing is pretty sad when you think about it. I admit I was expecting a happier ending, Liz and Booker really grew on me so I find the whole thing kinda depressing, it's a really tragic story.
 
Not explicitly, no. The foreshadowing is there though.



x

Who is the biologist if not someone from Rapture?

EDIT- Oh wait, I'm forgetting another one:

Infinite set of timelines. Infinite set of biologists. Infinite set of magic power-like technology. It doesn't necessarily have to be Rapture.

We're likely reading into the entire constants and variables thing completely differently. I see most of the constants as only being constant for the rather small frame of reference, but not universally. You seem to hold onto it a lot stronger than I. I'm content with that.

At this point, all I'd like to say - I prefer my multiverses to be a lot more like Sliders' version of multiverses.
We started out with infinite earth's, with some earth's having exact identical outcomes over eons, only to be branched by some random event. No new earths are ever created...it's just for every combination of probablistic outcomes, there exists some number of earths where that combination occurred.

Also means somewhere there's an earth where Booker and Elizabeth are both dinosaurs.

Hmm, I don't know, I'm thinking in those terms too (constants only affect the infinite set of timelines with shared events up to a specific point, [the constant] and there are an infinite set of events where different things were chosen at the constant) One thing I just want to state though before conclusion, I didn't mean 'create' literally (it would have been created 'at the beginning where everything else is created', but no timeline is ever created which leads to or contains a paradox). I simply meant that it was a pre-existing infinite set of timelines which contain that possibility but ultimately, you're right, we probably aren't going to concur by the end of the discussion. I do want to thank you for it though, I found it interesting.
 

Korey

Member
Hey guys, I have a request: I showed the Adam Sessler review to some friends and blew their minds, and I'd like to shoot them a link to a video of the intro, ideally from the lighthouse through Raffle Square. Ideally it would feature the Lutece appearance after you arrive in Columbia (the coin toss one). Anyone have any HD videos of this with no loudmouths commentating in the background?
link to the review?
 

Trigger

Member
Infinite set of timelines. Infinite set of biologists. Infinite set of magic power-like technology. It doesn't necessarily have to be Rapture.

Fair enough, but I somewhat felt like that's what the voxophones were meant to imply. A semi-explanation for the plasmid-like powers and Big Daddy-esque enemies.
 

Korey

Member
Doesn't really make sense though, you'd still need the Adam provided by the slugs, and that's assuming they had a world-class biologist in Columbia. The tonics seem to be improved compared to plasmids too. I'm guessing you're just supposed to suspend disbelief for the tonics.

I don't buy the Big Daddy thing either, is there actually a diary that explains that Fink saw Rapture?
it's heavily implied that it's rapture he's studying. Especially for the songbird/handyman but also for the vigors. You're not going to get a voxophone stating the word Rapture especially since its ruin the ending, but you can figure it out for yourself.

The vigors don't run on Adam. He simply took the concept he saw and made his own version based on salts. Other than that the game glosses over vigors entirely. They just included one voxophone to imply its origin.
 

daegan

Member
The whole thing is pretty sad when you think about it. I admit I was expecting a happier ending, Liz and Booker really grew on me so I find the whole thing kinda depressing, it's a really tragic story.

More than anything I worry about Booker being able to raise Anna and fight his demons.

When I got older I realized that my father's alcoholism probably was, to large extent, due to things he saw and did in Vietnam. His alcoholism was why I pretty much didn't have a father. So as weird as it sounds, I hope for Anna's sake that Booker does a better job of things in the remaining universes.
 
it's heavily implied that it's rapture he's studying. Especially for the songbird/handyman but also for the vigors. You're not going to get a voxophone stating the word Rapture especially since its ruin the ending, but you can figure it out for yourself.

The vigors don't run on Adam. He simply took the concept he saw and made his own version based on salts. Other than that the game glosses over vigors entirely. They just included one voxophone to imply its origin.
How is it implied though? Is there any mention that he's studying another city or are people just assuming because you can kind of draw parallels between some of the characters?
 

Zeliard

Member
How is it implied though? Is there any mention that he's studying another city or are people just assuming because you can kind of draw parallels between some of the characters?

There's direct mention through voxophones that he is studying other scientists through tears - one that he's looking at a highly talented biologist, and another that he's looking at an irreversible man/machine hybrid and wonders what use Comstock could have for it.

It's an assumption that it's Rapture he's referring to, but a good one, given the similarities between the technologies. The man/machine hybrid voxophone in particular seems unlikely not to be referring to Big Daddies.
 
I like the end quote where (my interpretation) Elizabeth says it doesn't matter that there's just a girl and a guy, it's the lesson that they taught you that matters.
 

Emerson

May contain jokes =>
So has anybody gone back and replayed Bioshock 1 to listen for the Songbird? I know there was some speculation about whether the videos were faked/viral material.
 

hey_it's_that_dog

benevolent sexism
The whole thing is pretty sad when you think about it. I admit I was expecting a happier ending, Liz and Booker really grew on me so I find the whole thing kinda depressing, it's a really tragic story.

I think one of the greatest testaments to Irrational's craftsmanship is that (some) people felt a basic emotional connection to the characters and a resulting sadness at the end of their story despite the plot being very mechanically complex.

It's like if you actually gave a shit about Leonardo DiCaprio (or anyone) in Inception.
 
More than anything I worry about Booker being able to raise Anna and fight his demons.

When I got older I realized that my father's alcoholism probably was, to large extent, due to things he saw and did in Vietnam. His alcoholism was why I pretty much didn't have a father. So as weird as it sounds, I hope for Anna's sake that Booker does a better job of things in the remaining universes.

Sorry to hear that man. But yeah, I guess the only positive spin is to think that in some universe they actually managed to be a happy family.
 

DatDude

Banned
How is it implied though? Is there any mention that he's studying another city or are people just assuming because you can kind of draw parallels between some of the characters?

bioshock initself is a parrlel to Bioshock Infinite.

Again, it's not directly.

But

Jack=Booker
Ryan=Comstock
Fitzroy=Atlas
Big Daddy=Song Bird
Little Sister=Elizabeth

it all fits with the motif of "there will be a lighthouse, a man and a city."
 

Trigger

Member
More than anything I worry about Booker being able to raise Anna and fight his demons.

When I got older I realized that my father's alcoholism probably was, to large extent, due to things he saw and did in Vietnam. His alcoholism was why I pretty much didn't have a father. So as weird as it sounds, I hope for Anna's sake that Booker does a better job of things in the remaining universes.

Well the beauty of the possibility space is that there may be a timeline where Booker is a shitty dad, the pair struggle financially, etc. However there is also for sure a future where Booker and Anna live happily ever after. It's all a matter of perspective.
 

Elios83

Member
Just finished the game. Enjoyed it a lot, but I think the ending didn't really have the same impact for me that it did for most.

Not saying the story wasn't well done, because it was, I've just always had a tendency to not really dig 'time travel/alternate dimensions' as plot devices in narratives. It's totally a personal thing.

I did dig the references to the original Bioshock though- that was cool.

Yeah I also tend not to like the stories about time travels and alternative dimensions because they end up being a mess since those things are just fiction (at least traveling in the past is impossible).
If you think about the Bioshock Infinite ending it's clear where they want to go with the story (Elizabeth creates a variation of the grandfather paradox so that Booker can never become Comstock in whatever reality).
But what happens is highly debatable. Infact there are many different ways to solve the parodox. One of them would be Elizabeth not being able to kill Booker, an other would be Elizabeth getting killed in the process.
Yet another would be Elizabeth ending up creating more and more parallel dimensions where Booker is killed after Wounded Knee.
So their interpretation is just convenient for the purpose of their narrative but it's not really good in my opinion.
 

hey_it's_that_dog

benevolent sexism
or if Inception had actual characters instead of ciphers used for endless amounts of exposition

Yeah, it's a mechanically sophisticated movie with a ton of rules laid out in painstaking and inelegant detail but no real heart. I still like it well enough.

On the subject of Nolan, the way Infinite doles out clues right from the start, but you don't yet know that they're clues, reminds me of The Prestige, which is my favorite of his films. This makes the second playthrough rewarding from a narrative perspective in a way that most games aren't.
 
What was so great about the Sess review? It sounded like a fanboy had the opportunity to submit his English paper for a video review. It's on the level of polygon/gameinformer in terms of quality.
 
They found a really cool way of linking both games, I was completely convinced that they were totally unrelated.
I guess you really should play the first game to get the most out of this. I wish I could see my face when I realized I was in Rapture, must've been the same I did for Portal 2's ending lol.
Anyone else feel sorry for the songbird? That was kinda cruel. It also made me realize how powerful Liz had become, so many emotions in that scene.
 

Korey

Member
How is it implied though? Is there any mention that he's studying another city or are people just assuming because you can kind of draw parallels between some of the characters?


The two voxophones are:

These holes have shown me yet another wonder, though I've yet to see the application for it. They illuminate a merger of machine and man that is somehow the lesser, yet the greater, of both parties. The process seems to be irreversible. Perhaps, though, Comstock will have some need of this kind of thing to keep watch in that tower of his.

- Jeremiah Fink


It's pretty much screaming that he's talking about Big Daddies without outright saying it. Bioshock is much more subtle than other games, but you know exactly what he's talking about.

Dear brother, these holes in the thin air continue to pay dividends. I know not which musician you borrow your notes from, but if he has half the genius of the biologist I now observe, well...then you are to be the Mozart of Columbia.

- Jeremiah Fink

This one has more room for interpretation, but you can infer that he's talking about Tenenbaum. I mean, it's possible that he's referring to a random biologist but you have to know by now that every word written in Bioshock games is carefully chosen, every voxophone has a purpose, and this one was to explain how he got the idea for vigors.
 

hey_it's_that_dog

benevolent sexism
They found a really cool way of linking both games, I was completely convinced that they were totally unrelated.
I guess you really should play the first game to get the most out of this. I wish I could see my face when I realized I was in Rapture, must've been the same I did for Portal 2's ending lol.
Anyone else feel sorry for the songbird? That was kinda cruel. It also made me realize how powerful Liz had become, so many emotions in that scene.

Yup. He's just a giant bird, tryin' to bird it up. ;_;
 

Guevara

Member
This one has more room for interpretation, but you can infer that he's talking about Tenenbaum. I mean, it's possible that he's referring to a random biologist but you have to know by now that every word written in Bioshock games is carefully chosen, every voxophone has a purpose, and this one was to explain how he got the idea for vigors.

No, you're correct it must refer to Tenenbaum. See this recording from B1 (Titled Mozart of Genetics):

That's quite a little monster Fontaine's dug up. When she does speak, which is almost never, her accent is thick and grating. Her hair is filthy and she seems to wear the same mustard-stained jumper day after day. But I've got to hand it to Frank: Tenenbaum is the all-time diamond in the rough. No formal training, no experience... but put her in front of a gene sequence, and she's Mozart at the harpsichord.

Nice call back
 
LAST BIG OP FRAMEWORK UPDATE* HOPEFULLY

Okay I formatted the OP hopefully for the last time to be 90% text based so copying and pasting and references are easy as well as making everything more uniformly organized so newcomers can find what they are looking for quickly.

Phew...
 
bioshock initself is a parrlel to Bioshock Infinite.

Again, it's not directly.

But

Jack=Booker
Ryan=Comstock
Fitzroy=Atlas
Big Daddy=Song Bird
Little Sister=Elizabeth

it all fits with the motif of "there will be a lighthouse, a man and a city."

OK. I'm not sure what this has to do with how tonics work.

Also, some of the analysis here (not calling you out, there's a lot of it from a lot of people) is ridiculous. I mean yeah, you can draw parallels between Elizabeth and Little Sisters and Song Bird and the Daddies, but as far as the other three go you're basically saying "Both games have a protagonist, villain, and a sleazy industrialist type!" Mind blown!

There's direct mention through voxophones that he is studying other scientists through tears - one that he's looking at a highly talented biologist, and another that he's looking at an irreversible man/machine hybrid and wonders what use Comstock could have for it.

It's an assumption that it's Rapture he's referring to, but a good one, given the similarities between the technologies. The man/machine hybrid voxophone in particular seems unlikely not to be referring to Big Daddies.

Ah, I see. Makes sense then.

I still wish they went into detail though. By the end of BioShock you feel like you know everything about the city. You know every detail about how the city fell apart, exactly how the whole Big Daddy/ Little Sister relationship works and how people began becoming them, you just feel like you've learned a lot about the place.

You can easily fill in the blanks in Infinite (Handmen are terminal patients converted in order to do hard menial labor and seemingly weren't used as weapons much before the game. Tonics are expensive or unstable so most people stay away from them. "Salts" represent how mentally "fresh" you are, or something like that, etc.) but I miss that feeling of slowly learning the tiny details of everything. Some of it just seems odd, too. It seems like an oversight to completely neglect the dehumanizing aspect of tonics in such a religious environment.

Kind of sucks too that the diaries seemed to be less frequent and more well-hidden this time, it's cool to read these ones referencing Rapture now but I wish I would have found them on my own.
 
Top Bottom