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[Salamando]

Hmm, I don't know, I'm thinking in those terms too (constants only affect the infinite set of timelines with shared events up to a specific point, [the constant] and there are an infinite set of events where different things were chosen at the constant) One thing I just want to state though before conclusion, I didn't mean 'create' literally (it would have been created 'at the beginning where everything else is created', but no timeline is ever created which leads to or contains a paradox). I simply meant that it was a pre-existing infinite set of timelines which contain that possibility but ultimately, you're right, we probably aren't going to concur by the end of the discussion. I do want to thank you for it though, I found it interesting.

Indeed. Good debate is always fun. Now then, alternate topics of discussion...

- At certain times you can tear-in some Dewitt decoys. In what timeline is Dewitt famous enough to have random statues floating around? For that matter, why are there random turrets, mosquitos, and mechanical patriots pre-programmed to attack Vox and Founders?

- Rosalind's devotion to her brother. What's up with that? Is there a term for being in love with your gender-bent self from another universe?

- Would the people of an uber-religious 1912 American town really buy into a female leader?

- When the Elizabeth's show up to drown you, anyone notice that the left-most Elizabeth was apparently from a beta-version Bioshock Infinite, judging by the hairstyle?

 

[XANDER CAGE]

- Would the people of an uber-religious 1912 American town really buy into a female leader?

The religion is founded on the principle that the prophet's daughter will take the throne, so yeah.

- When the Elizabeth's show up to drown you, anyone notice that the left-most Elizabeth was apparently from a beta-version Bioshock Infinite, judging by the hairstyle?

Yep! Cool use of assets.

 

[Dragon1893]

Infinite is more about the characters than the city. I think this is deliberate, in contrast with the first game.

 

[Korey]

Ah, I see. Makes sense then.

I still wish they went into detail though. By the end of BioShock you feel like you know everything about the city. You know every detail about how the city fell apart, exactly how the whole Big Daddy/ Little Sister relationship works and how people began becoming them, you just feel like you've learned a lot about the place.

You can easily fill in the blanks in Infinite (Handmen are terminal patients converted in order to do hard menial labor and seemingly weren't used as weapons much before the game. Tonics are expensive or unstable so most people stay away from them. "Salts" represent how mentally "fresh" you are, or something like that, etc.) but I miss that feeling of slowly learning the tiny details of everything. Some of it just seems odd, too. It seems like an oversight to completely neglect the dehumanizing aspect of tonics in such a religious environment.

Kind of sucks too that the diaries seemed to be less frequent and more well-hidden this time, it's cool to read these ones referencing Rapture now but I wish I would have found them on my own.

You're right, BioShock has more fleshed out world building, but Infinite has better storytelling (imo). Both have their strengths. It's possible that they had so much going on that they didn't feel the need to go into Plasmids/Vigors again, but it's a valid criticism

 

[Freedom = $1.05]

So, what happens to Slate if you kill him? Does it still show his name on the list in the jail? Or is the last time you see him is after you get the shock jockey?

 

[RoKKeR]

LAST BIG OP FRAMEWORK UPDATE* HOPEFULLY

Okay I formatted the OP hopefully for the last time to be 90% text based so copying and pasting and references are easy as well as making everything more uniformly organized so newcomers can find what they are looking for quickly.

Phew...

If you need more edits to the first post then PM me.

 

[Trigger]

Indeed. Good debate is always fun. Now then, alternate topics of discussion...

- At certain times you can tear-in some Dewitt decoys. In what timeline is Dewitt famous enough to have random statues floating around? For that matter, why are there random turrets, mosquitos, and mechanical patriots pre-programmed to attack Vox and Founders?

I assumed the Decoys were statues from a Matyr!Booker timeline. As for the turrets, mosquitos, etc, Liz at one point suggests that her power is a form of wish fulfillment. Perhaps the machines are just responding to her desire to help Booker?

- Rosalind's devotion to her brother. What's up with that? Is there a term for being in love with your gender-bent self from another universe?

Selfcest lol.

I always thought their relationship was romantic in nature. Rosalind's tone in the voxophones towards her brother seem very affectionate.

 

[Dragon1893]

Indeed. Good debate is always fun. Now then, alternate topics of discussion...

- At certain times you can tear-in some Dewitt decoys. In what timeline is Dewitt famous enough to have random statues floating around? For that matter, why are there random turrets, mosquitos, and mechanical patriots pre-programmed to attack Vox and Founders?

- Rosalind's devotion to her brother. What's up with that? Is there a term for being in love with your gender-bent self from another universe?

- Would the people of an uber-religious 1912 American town really buy into a female leader?

- When the Elizabeth's show up to drown you, anyone notice that the left-most Elizabeth was apparently from a beta-version Bioshock Infinite, judging by the hairstyle?

I think Rosalind was fascinated by the idea of working with someone as brilliant as herself.
When I saw all those versions of Liz I immediately thought that they were probably using old iterations of her that were scraped.

 

[Jest Chillin]

- At certain times you can tear-in some Dewitt decoys. In what timeline is Dewitt famous enough to have random statues floating around? For that matter, why are there random turrets, mosquitos, and mechanical patriots pre-programmed to attack Vox and Founders?

- Rosalind's devotion to her brother. What's up with that? Is there a term for being in love with your gender-bent self from another universe?

- Decoys could be from a timeline where Dewitt accepts Finks position as Head of Security maybe? Stomping out the rebellion could allow for him to have some small statues there and there. The automated guns are likely just pulled from whatever timelines have the control in the opposing factions hands. Anti-Founder machines from a Vox controlled timeline and vice-versa.

- It's a common trope that people who reach certain heights (whether it be wealth, genius, or other) tend to only respect those of similar stature. There's no closer version of Rosalind than her Male counter-part. Hence the X chromosome being "the only difference" between the two.

 

[BeerSnob]

I think Rosalind was fascinated by the idea of working with someone as brilliant as herself.
When I saw all those versions of Liz I immediately thought that they were probably using old iterations of her that were scraped.

When Rosalind comments on the successful arrival of her "brother" and says "there's nothing between us now except a chromosome", I just stared at the screen for a bit. Yeah, that's not platonic I don't care how you cut it.

 

[Mobius 1]

I'm finding it impossible to stop thinking about this story.

 

[brianmcdoogle]

The one issue I am having with the game is the political and religious themes not gelling with the time travel and player choice themes. For example, how does the idea of American exceptionalism and rewriting of history through political parties like the Republicans and tea party mesh with the overall idea of cyclical timelines and infinite possibilities with regard to player choice? I really like the beginning of this game with the historical overtone and racial stuff, but I feel like so much of that is disregarded at the game goes on, and at the end with the baptism being central, I don't understand how baptism ties in to the ending other than being a plot point. Maybe I am missing something obvious, but I was the beginning and the ending and the gameplay were much more intertwine than just window dressing.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

If you need more edits to the first post then PM me.

Thanks man you have been great. I appreciate it

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

I'm finding it impossible to stop thinking about this story.

See Item 189 of the OP:

[*]I CANT STOP THINKING ABOUT THIS GAME!

Welcome to the club. Be excited for the DLC 3 of which are confirmed to be story based with Levine even saying we will get more info specifically on SongBird.
So don't worry more Bioshock Infinite is coming!

Yeah I am pretty obsessed with it as well. More so than I can think of being with any other game. I mean stuff like this has happened to me with great movies and books but never a game.

Double post for my shame

 

[tipoo]

- When the Elizabeth's show up to drown you, anyone notice that the left-most Elizabeth was apparently from a beta-version Bioshock Infinite, judging by the hairstyle?

I noticed during the initial Infinite showcases the Elizabeth model changed a few times, not just the haircut. I think perhaps they knew the ending scene and had multiple Elizabeth models, and hadn't decided on the main one yet. Or your alternative is just as likely I suppose, they changed the Elizabeth model and decided they may as well re-use the one that was cast aside in the final scene, because why not, it's already made.

 

[Incendiary]

I know this is kind of weird, but I figure this would be the place to do it instead of in the main thread since I don't have to spoiler it, and also a lot of people are going back through the game and taking HD screenshots and what-not.

Could someone with a PC take a screenshot of the Vitruvian Songbird drawing in the Factory? It's on a chalkboard in a corner of the room, next to a voxophone by Fink. It's right when you enter the Factory, before you open the door to the open area where you find Fitzroy and fight the Handyman. I'm on a 360 so I can't take a screenshot of it myself, but I'd like it as a background and also want to make it my new avatar. Thanks in advance if anyone does this for me.

 

[FStop7]

The one issue I am having with the game is the political and religious themes not gelling with the time travel and player choice themes. For example, how does the idea of American exceptionalism and rewriting of history through political parties like the Republicans and tea party mesh with the overall idea of cyclical timelines and infinite possibilities with regard to player choice? I really like the beginning of this game with the historical overtone and racial stuff, but I feel like so much of that is disregarded at the game goes on, and at the end with the baptism being central, I don't understand how baptism ties in to the ending other than being a plot point. Maybe I am missing something obvious, but I was the beginning and the ending and the gameplay were much more intertwine than just window dressing.

The concept of cyclical revolution certainly comes up a lot. Jefferson, Franklin, and Washington are worshipped as demigods in Columbia. They were leaders of the American Revolution. Wounded Knee was one of the final conflicts of the Indian Wars. The Boxer Rebellion was a nationalist revolution. The Vox Populi fought a revolution vs. the Founders of Columbia. And the Vox were heading down a path to becoming oppressors themselves, which means they would likely one day be cast off in yet another revolution.

Think about what Santayana said in regard to what happens in the game. Not just the political stuff, but the choices made by Booker as well. Especially in the context of his memories being clouded or lost: Those who do not remember their past are condemned to repeat their mistakes.

 

[Korey]

The one issue I am having with the game is the political and religious themes not gelling with the time travel and player choice themes. For example, how does the idea of American exceptionalism and rewriting of history through political parties like the Republicans and tea party mesh with the overall idea of cyclical timelines and infinite possibilities with regard to player choice? I really like the beginning of this game with the historical overtone and racial stuff, but I feel like so much of that is disregarded at the game goes on, and at the end with the baptism being central, I don't understand how baptism ties in to the ending other than being a plot point. Maybe I am missing something obvious, but I was the beginning and the ending and the gameplay were much more intertwine than just window dressing.

Baptism, drowning, being born again, rebirth, redemption, atoning for past sins is a huge theme in the game.

- DeWitt is trying to find redemption for his past atrocities at Wounded Knee and as a Pinkerton.

- DeWitt is trying to atone for selling off his kid 20 years ago.

- The Lettuces are trying to undo their part in starting all of this. They refer to DeWitt as their "hair shirt" (look it up). They are trying to find redemption through DeWitt.


- The first thing you see when stepping into the lighthouse and action event is the bowl of water to cleanse yourself of sins. DeWitt looks down at it, then "refuses" by not touching the water and looks at the sign above it that says something about cleansing your sins and says "good luck with that, pal"

- First thing that happens when he enters Columbia is getting baptized/drowned by the Preacher. When he wakes up he says "That preacher needs to figure out the difference between baptism and drowning." A guy comes up to him and says that the prophet fills your lungs with water so that you may love the air more.

- Songbird's only weakness is the high pressure of water. This is foreshadowed when you arrive at Battleship Bay by almost drowning in the "ocean". This happens again at the end when Songbird drowns at Rapture.

- Comstock is killed by getting his head slammed on a baptism bowl thing.

- The DeWitt baptisms at the end (self-explanatory).

 

[SpacePirate Ridley]

What was so great about the Sess review? It sounded like a fanboy had the opportunity to submit his English paper for a video review. It's on the level of polygon/gameinformer in terms of quality.

You can like it or not, but Sessler's opinion is quite thoughtful. When he speaks about the different segments of the game, the construction of it, and why in his opinion convey those feelings for him, you understand he knows about the things he talks. He is not lying in any moment of that review.
And im not the biggest Sessler fan.

 

[Ciastek3214]

Okay, I have a question.

So there are 2 ways the baptising of Booker can end, either he does get baptised and names himself Comstock and builds or he doesn't and later has a daughter named Anna. Right?

And Comstock, because he's sterile, can't have children, so he decides to steal Anna from Booker who is practically the version of him that didn't accept the baptising. To do that he had to go through a tear to Booker's universe, get Anna, and go back to his own. Right?

So basically except this one short moment, there is only one Booker OR Comstock for each universe. Right?

So here's the question: How does Booker rescue Elizabeth if she's in different universe now, I didn't see him go through any tears before his reunion with Elizabeth/Anna. There's only her little finger left in his universe so... how?

It's getting late so I'm going to sleep, but I expect that answered by tomorrow so don't dissapoint me.

 

[Square Triangle]

The siren guys at the end were way underused for such a fantastic character design

 

[Korey]

Okay, I have a question.

So there are 2 ways the baptising of Booker can end, either he does get baptised and names himself Comstock and builds or he doesn't and later has a daughter named Anna. Right?

And Comstock, because he's sterile, can't have children, so he decides to steal Anna from Booker who is practically the version of him that didn't accept the baptising. To do that he had to go through a tear to Booker's universe, get Anna, and go back to his own. Right?

So basically except this one short moment, there is only one Booker OR Comstock for each universe. Right?

So here's the question: How does Booker rescue Elizabeth if she's in different universe now, I didn't see him go through any tears before his reunion with Elizabeth/Anna. There's only her little finger left in his universe so... how?

It's getting late so I'm going to sleep, but I expect that answered by tomorrow so don't dissapoint me.

The ending shows him being dragged from his apartment to the boat rowing scene through a tear by the Lettuces. Watch it again.

 

[XNarte]

My wife is playing right now.

"A mother who abandons her child get's no sympathy from me" -Elizabeth in Lady Comstock's grave.

Funny, now that I know that Booker abandoned her.

 

[RoKKeR]

Any thoughts on the pen pal? What was her name, Clarence or something? I haven't seen anything on her.

 

[DatDude]

The one issue I am having with the game is the political and religious themes not gelling with the time travel and player choice themes. For example, how does the idea of American exceptionalism and rewriting of history through political parties like the Republicans and tea party mesh with the overall idea of cyclical timelines and infinite possibilities with regard to player choice? I really like the beginning of this game with the historical overtone and racial stuff, but I feel like so much of that is disregarded at the game goes on, and at the end with the baptism being central, I don't understand how baptism ties in to the ending other than being a plot point. Maybe I am missing something obvious, but I was the beginning and the ending and the gameplay were much more intertwine than just window dressing.

I feel like that much of that stuff was supposed to be less of a reflection of the city but more of a reflection of Booker himself and the various themes that make him, him.

So think Silent Hill, in terms of metaphorical and symbolic connections.

 

[Trigger]

Any thoughts on the pen pal? What was her name, Clarence or something? I haven't seen anything on her.

Constance?

I don't think she has much significance other than to highlight how the average person views Elizabeth and her isolation.

 

[The One Who Knocks]

Any thoughts on the pen pal? What was her name, Clarence or something? I haven't seen anything on her.

Constance Field. Seems like a play on the word Constants but I'm wondering about her too. Did her story or plot go anywhere? What was her purpose in the game?

EDIT: At the above, oh, ok.

 

[RoKKeR]

Constance?

I don't think she has much significance other than to highlight how the average person views Elizabeth and her isolation.

Right, Constance. I thought of her right when Elizabeth started talking about 'constants' during the ending, and instantly made the connection. I'd been meaning to go back and listen to the Voxaphone's from her but never got to it. Perhaps there's no significance past the name, but it stood out to me.

 

[zer0blivion]

This is the only thing that's bugging me a little bit. The code being 122 must not mean that you are Booker 122. When you are baptized upon arriving at Columbia, you die. The next Booker, then goes on to flip coin 123. The Booker that died upon baptism did not flip a coin.

 

[DatDude]

Yeah I am pretty obsessed with it as well. More so than I can think of being with any other game. I mean stuff like this has happened to me with great movies and books but never a game.

Same.

Also incredible job with this spoiler thread! :O

You truly are a master!

 

[Guevara]

This is the only thing that's bugging me a little bit. The code being 122 must not mean that you are Booker 122. When you are baptized upon arriving at Columbia, you die. The next Booker, then goes on to flip coin 123. The Booker that died upon baptism did not flip a coin.

That doesn't make sense to me. What, did the first Booker put in 0-0-0?

 

[Korey]

This is the only thing that's bugging me a little bit. The code being 122 must not mean that you are Booker 122. When you are baptized upon arriving at Columbia, you die. The next Booker, then goes on to flip coin 123. The Booker that died upon baptism did not flip a coin.

You don't die upon arriving and baptized at Columbia. Let's not start that up again.

 

[Incendiary]

The siren guys at the end were way underused for such a fantastic character design

I hope they show up in the DLC.

 

[zer0blivion]

You don't die upon arriving and baptized at Columbia. Let's not start that up again.

You end up in the office, aka died.

 

[ThaiGrocer]

That doesn't make sense to me. What, did the first Booker put in 0-0-0?

0-0-1 lol

 

[Sorian]

You don't die upon arriving and baptized at Columbia. Let's not start that up again.

I still think you do

Also, i was reading that selfcest trope page in regards to the twins (who I do believe have some type of romantic connection as well) It gives different names for "selfcest" one of which being dopplebanger. Word of the year right there.

 

[zer0blivion]

That doesn't make sense to me. What, did the first Booker put in 0-0-0?

If the code corresponds to the Booker number, the first one would be 0-0-1. 0-0-0 does not make sense.

 

[Korey]

You end up in the office, aka died.

The office scenes are not indicative of dying. It's a theory one or two people made up that is not supported by the game itself.

 

[Trigger]

You end up in the office, aka died.

I assumed that was a memory not death. Booker still remembers the Baptism and doesn't a suffer a nosebleed from that knowledge.

 

[Sorian]

The office scenes are not indicative of dying. It's a theory one or two people made up that is not supported by the game itself.

I brought up yesterday that dying as Booker by himself brings you to the office for a reason and I couldn't help but notice that you ignored me. How much more proof from the game do you need that the office is indicative of dying?

Edit: You also seem to be overly underestimating how many people think along this same line. There was a good two page discussion in the last thread about this idea that had many followers.

 

[zer0blivion]

The office scenes are not indicative of dying. It's a theory one or two people made up that is not supported by the game itself.

It's a theory that's supported by the game. Anytime you die when Elizabeth is not with you, you are back in the office.

 

[Square Triangle]

I hope they show up in the DLC.

I can totally see a challenge room style dlc

 

[Korey]

It's a theory that's supported by the game. Anytime you die when Elizabeth is not with you, you are back in the office.

They use the office for multiple things in the game. Just because they use it for your respawn mechanic doesn't indicate that everytime you see the office you're dead.

Other applications for using the office:

- You're unconscious
- You fainted
- You're dreaming
- You're taking a nap

 

[MuddyDonut]

You can like it or not, but Sessler's opinion is quite thoughtful. When he speaks about the different segments of the game, the construction of it, and why in his opinion convey those feelings for him, you understand he knows about the things he talks. He is not lying in any moment of that review.
And im not the biggest Sessler fan.

I'm not saying he's lying or anything of the sort. It comes across as more of a general look at the game, expressing why it's so awesome, instead of an actual review. It's safe and I don't see how it elevates itself over those other reviews I pointed out. I guess waxing poetic is simply not my type of thing and why I tend to stray away from press reviews for the most part. I like Sessler and Bioshock, though.

 

[Sorian]

They use the office for multiple things in the game. Just because they use it for your respawn mechanic doesn't indicate that everytime you see the office you're dead.

They, literally, use the office for nothing else when Booker is by himself.

Edit: I also like how in your edit you tried to make it seem like a longer list when you only listed one thing. You are unconscious. The game, however, never indicates that being unconscious leads to an office scene.

 

[FlutterPuffs]

They use the office for multiple things in the game. Just because they use it for your respawn mechanic doesn't indicate that everytime you see the office you're dead.

Other applications for using the office:

- You're unconscious
- You fainted
- You're dreaming
- You're taking a nap

You return to the office after SongBird slammed you flying into a wall. I reckon a Booker died there.

Not to mention it explains why the Lucetes' would want to warn you about taking the number 77 ball.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

You return to the office after SongBird slammed you flying into a wall. I reckon a Booker died there.

Not to mention it explains why the Lucetes' would want to warn you about taking the number 77 ball.

I thought they were "warning" you to experiment with constants.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

Same.

Also incredible job with this spoiler thread! :O

You truly are a master!

Thanks man.

The siren guys at the end were way underused for such a fantastic character design

They were originally meant to be in the game as a recurring enemy as was the siren but they were cut for some reason.

 

[FlutterPuffs]

I thought they were "warning" you to experiment with constants.

What do you mean by experimenting with constants?

For me it was because a Booker died after taking the #77 ball, so they decided to warn you against taking it.

 

[Trigger]

Booker dying at the baptism creates a wonkier timeline than I like, lol. How does he get to the opening area after the baptism if it's not the same Booker?