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[Korey]

You return to the office after SongBird slammed you flying into a wall. I reckon a Booker died there.

Not to mention it explains why the Lucetes' would want to warn you about taking the number 77 ball.

The Songbird didn't slam you flying into a wall. You dropped into the ocean and blacked out before washing up on the shore. You passed out after getting baptized by the preacher. They (third parties and yourself) address both these things immediately after you wake up.

The Luteces warn you about the ball so you'd be on alert for a fight. What does that have to do with the office?

What do you mean by experimenting with constants?

For me it was because a Booker died after taking the #77 ball, so they decided to warn you against taking it.

They weren't warning you about taking it. You get #77 every time, it's a constant. They were just letting you know so you'd be ready for a fight.

 

[zer0blivion]

Booker dying at the baptism creates a wonkier timeline than I like, lol. How does he get to the opening area after the baptism if it's not the same Booker?

It would be the next Booker.

 

[Papercuts]

It would be the next Booker.

But how did the next booker get there? I agree with it being too weird if that killed him.

 

[The One Who Knocks]

I thought they were "warning" you to experiment with constants.

I can concur with this possibility but I always thought it worked better if the warning itself is what prevented Booker from dying. As in, Booker always picks 77 (I like the repetition of 7 in the game actually, 7th Cavalry, 77, 7 days for Elizabeth's birth to occur according to the propoganda) but without the warning he's caught by surprise when he throws the ball whereas with the warning he's aware already after picking the ball that Comstock will be alerted to his presence. EDIT: What Kobey said.

I also have to agree with Papercut and those arguing that it's a memory in the above discussion (although I'd rather not be involved in the reasoning why again).

What did everybody think about Daisy as a character by the way? I thought she was kind of under utilised in the story. She had a decent backstory and we saw her view but I felt her impact on the main plot was kind of...I don't know, uneventful? I can definitely agree with the cyclical nature of revolutions and the duality aspect of the rebellion storyline but in terms of Daisy herself I felt like the character never really contributed anything to the story but an idea (although maybe that was the point). Her backstory ties in well to the events of the game but I never really got to know much of her world view other than her belief that everybody was equal and problems had to be stopped at the core. While she added to the overall narative, she never really seemed to add to the events that occured after Booker's arrival (although, again, maybe that's the point) I hope that's clear to understand, I'm not sure that I laid out my thoughts in a comprehensible manner there.

 

[sn00zer]

after rereading the OP...I still think the evidence is too strong to say he isnt related to Andrew Ryan in some way genetically...the sequence takes place during Bioshock 1 after Jack arrives as noted by the destroyed walkway and electricity that is out, and fire that is no longer burning....second the lock is in place as noted by the luggage and signs near the bathysphere.... so one of his selves is definitely in that universe, whether it is Jack or Andrew Ryan or one of the subordinates of Andrew Ryan

 

[Trigger]

It would be the next Booker.

Then why is the next Booker alive after experiencing the same event?

 

[zer0blivion]

But how did the next booker get there? I agree with it being too weird if that killed him.

The same way all the other Bookers got there?

 

[xxjuicesxx]

Booker dying at the baptism creates a wonkier timeline than I like, lol. How does he get to the opening area after the baptism if it's not the same Booker?

I They are suggesting in the next one the priest simply isnt there and Booker just walks through into Columbia.

Which I personally dont like because they say You must be baptised to get into Columbia, I feel they always have someone there allowing you passage and he was just dunked too long and passed out.

However I saw the 77 ball now as this nice way of making you feel a little like you ARE Booker a nice way of getting you really into the world and story. Of course you see the note about not picking 77, and you think OK so this will be used soon. You wait and then once you get to that ball scene wasn't everybody thinking OK this is probably it, I'll probably pick ball 77, and then Booker goes "Of course its 77" or something similar, which was literally what I was thinking. Self fulfilling prophecy and all. The fact its at the beginning of the game kind of supports this.

 

[Sorian]

Then why is the next Booker alive after experiencing the same event?

Who said he experienced the same event? When you die in-game, you don't experience the same event that kills you again.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

What do you mean by experimenting with constants?

For me it was because a Booker died after taking the #77 ball, so they decided to warn you against taking it.

As in they know it will always be #77, and they want to see if making Booker aware of that fact will influence the outcome. That, or they're warning him that things are about to go down.

 

[zer0blivion]

Then why is the next Booker alive after experiencing the same event?

The baptism doesn't kill him the other times.

 

[Sorian]

The baptism doesn't kill him the other times.

Or just never occurs in other realities.

 

[Papercuts]

Who said he experienced the same event? When you die in-game, you don't experience the same event that kills you again.

He wakes up coughing from the water.

 

[Korey]

The baptism doesn't kill him the other times.

When you wake up, you're lying down in the water coughing up water. Then you get up and a guy says to you "The preacher fills your lungs with water so that you may love the air more."

When you wake up from washing on the beach, Elizabeth is frantic and asks you if you're ok and states "You almost drowned."

I mean, your theory doesn't make any sense.

 

[Sorian]

He wakes up coughing from the water.

Made an interesting theory a couple pages back that explains that, will locate.

You actually just made me rethink something. It seems to coincidental that the new Booker wakes up coughing water but it may not be a coincidence at all. Maybe Booker does have a cognitive reaction at the point where something is different and it causes a lapse in what is going on and he goes right into the water. I mean, Chen Lin was still using tools where there were none, who's to say that Booker wasn't trying to cause a baptism where there wasn't a priest?

 

[ViewtifulJC]

This theory adds nothing to the game. It doesn't make it any more interesting. Hell, I think it makes it less interesting.

 

[FlutterPuffs]

The Songbird didn't slam you flying into a wall. You dropped into the ocean and blacked out before washing up on the shore. You passed out after getting baptized by the preacher. They address both these things immediately after you wake up.

The Luteces warn you about the ball so you'd be on alert for a fight. What does that have to do with the office?

I was talking about this part.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=QaD-XaLUbRg#t=151s

They weren't warning you about taking it. You get #77 every time, it's a constant. They were just letting you know so you'd be ready for a fight.

How would they know about DeWitt to have to get ready for a fight? One theory is that they have already sent a few Bookers, and most of them die after taking the $77 ball.

 

[Trigger]

Who said he experienced the same event? When you die in-game, you don't experience the same event that kills you again.

Booker makes a comment after waking up that implies he was baptized as well. I guess I'm just not sure why Booker 1 drowns and Booker 2 lives (and is mildly miffed lol).

 

[Korey]

I was talking about this part.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=QaD-XaLUbRg#t=151s

Again, this is another example of passing out/blacking out. The office scenes are used for both dying (as a game mechanic), and story parts where he is unconscious. Notice that he's ON THE FLOOR lying in the middle of a bunch of debris. Your theory of you waking up as "another Booker who didn't get thrown in there by the Songbird and died" doesn't make sense.

How would they know about DeWitt to have to get ready for a fight? One theory is that they have already sent a few Bookers, and most of them die after taking the $77 ball.

What do you mean? They've done this 122 times before. They know everything that is going to go down (the constants, not the variables - those, they don't know), including the fact that you're going to win the raffle every time and a fight will ensue. They're letting you know so you'll be prepared, which you were the moment you picked up the ball with #77 on it.

 

[Papercuts]

Made an interesting theory a couple pages back that explains that, will locate.

Wouldn't he be having a nosebleed?

 

[Guevara]

This theory adds nothing to the game. It doesn't make it any more interesting. Hell, I think it makes it less interesting.

I agree.

 

[zer0blivion]

Booker makes a comment after waking up that implies he was baptized as well. I guess I'm just not sure why Booker 1 drowns and Booker 2 lives (and is mildly miffed lol).

Everyone who enters Columbia is baptized. I have no doubt he was baptized every time he entered Columbia.

 

[Sorian]

Again, this is another example of passing out/blacking out. The office scenes are used for both dying (as a game mechanic), and story parts where he is unconscious. Notice that he's ON THE FLOOR lying in the middle of a bunch of debris. Your theory of you waking up as "another Booker who didn't get thrown in there by the Songbird and died" doesn't make sense.

The same event can occur in some of these places with a different result. Songbird always tosses you, sometimes you die, sometimes you don't. Any number of variables could make it so that impact could and could not kill you.

Wouldn't he be having a nosebleed?

You only get the nosebleed if there is drastically different memories currently entering your mind. You can have a small amount of cognitive dissonance without a nosebleed. If this were not the case, Booker would have had a nosebleed on the boat ride to the lighthouse (some type of melding with Comstock's memories).

 

[ProfessorLobo]

Has anyone explained why the statues change genders at the beginning of the game? I can't imagine that making much sense at all

 

[Papercuts]

The same event can occur in some of these places with a different result. Songbird always tosses you, sometimes you die, sometimes you don't. Any number of variables could make it so that impact could and could not kill you.



You only get the nosebleed if there is drastically different memories currently entering your mind. You can have a small amount of cognitive dissonance without a nosebleed. If this were not the case, Booker would have had a nosebleed on the boat ride to the lighthouse (some type of melding with Comstock's memories).

I just feel like him realizing he should be baptized and do it himself would be one of those moments. Or atleast garner a "what the fuck are you doing, sir" from the nearby people.

 

[DatDude]

What did everybody think about Daisy as a character by the way? I thought she was kind of under utilised in the story. She had a decent backstory and we saw her view but I felt her impact on the main plot was kind of...I don't know, uneventful? I can definitely agree with the cyclical nature of revolutions and the duality aspect of the rebellion storyline but in terms of Daisy herself I felt like the character never really contributed anything to the story but an idea (although maybe that was the point). Her backstory ties in well to the events of the game but I never really got to know much of her world view other than her belief that everybody was equal and problems had to be stopped at the core. While she added to the overall narative, she never really seemed to add to the events that occured after Booker's arrival (although, again, maybe that's the point) I hope that's clear to understand, I'm not sure that I laid out my thoughts in a comprehensible manner there.

I think she wasn't meant to be fully developed...personally.

I think the whole vox poppulli rebellion was meant to be a symbolic representation of booker and the inner struggles his past/present/future consists of.

 

[MrPink93485]

Probably a stupid question (I feel like I'm overlooking something), but why are Booker and Comstock able to exist in the same space as separate entities, but say if Elizabeth/Booker hopped into another dimension there's not a 2nd Elizabeth out there?

 

[Inferno313]

Probably a stupid question, but why are Booker and Comstock able to exist in the same space as separate entities, but say if Elizabeth hopped into another dimension there's not a 2nd Elizabeth out there?

Did they ever say there wasn't? When you walk through the sea of doors you see other Elizabeth's and Bookers. Maybe your paths just didn't cross earlier.

 

[disappeared]

You actually just made me rethink something. It seems to coincidental that the new Booker wakes up coughing water but it may not be a coincidence at all. Maybe Booker does have a cognitive reaction at the point where something is different and it causes a lapse in what is going on and he goes right into the water. I mean, Chen Lin was still using tools where there were none, who's to say that Booker wasn't trying to cause a baptism where there wasn't a priest?

For what it's worth, you wake up at night, it's raining/wet around you, and the Lutece twins are wearing their raincoats. Maybe it's sort of like a Twin Peaks thing where Booker just "appears" on the beach shore near Maine.

 

[Metroidvania]

Booker dying at the baptism creates a wonkier timeline than I like, lol. How does he get to the opening area after the baptism if it's not the same Booker?

Supposedly the people standing next to you say something about the priest leaving people under for a long time, and Booker remarks something along the lines of 'that priest needs to learn the difference between drowning and baptism'.

I always saw the 'cutscene' office moments, since they have plot essential narrative snippets, to be Booker's subconscious memories behind the cognitive dissonance 'mission' that the Luteces establish.

 

[Dmax3901]

Everyone who enters Columbia is baptized. I have no doubt he was baptized every time he entered Columbia.

There are infinite universes, unless the upon-entry to Columbia baptism is a constant (nothing in-game suggests it is) there are infinite universes where Booker drowns, Booker splutters but lives, Booker kisses the preacher, kicks the preacher in the balls, perhaps in some part of the multiverse Booker is black and they all run away screaming.

"Is it someone ne- AHRGHGGHGH!"

 

[Neiteio]

I'll ask a second time, to see if I have any better luck with whoever's currently viewing the thread: Anyone know of an HD video on YouTube, of the PC version of BioShock, that shows the start of the game up through Raffle Square, with NO commentary, and ideally with a play style that takes in some of the iconic sights? I just wonder if anyone has bookmarked such a video, or knows of a channel that may have one. I'd like to shoot this part of the game to some people I know who had their minds blown by the Adam Sessler review but who don't play games.

 

[Sorian]

For what it's worth, you wake up at night, it's raining/wet around you, and the Lutece twins are wearing their raincoats. Maybe it's sort of like a Twin Peaks thing where Booker just "appears" on the beach shore near Maine.

Well they show how Booker appears at the end of the game, the point is if cognitive dissonance always causes a nosebleed, then he would have one there.

 

[Metroidvania]

Well they show how Booker appears at the end of the game, the point is if cognitive dissonance always causes a nosebleed, then he would have one there.

Unless I'm remembering wrong, he did have a degree of cognitive dissonance upon appearing in the world and loses consciousness, hence his mumbling about 'get the girl, erase the debt' as the Lutece's drag him away from the island itself to a rowboat before it fades to black for a bit, presumably to make it 'appear' like he's waking up while travelling to the island as part of his mission.

 

[Trigger]

Supposedly the people standing next to you say something about the priest leaving people under for a long time, and Booker remarks something along the lines of 'that priest needs to learn the difference between drowning and baptism'.

I always saw the 'cutscene' office moments, since they have plot essential narrative snippets, to be Booker's subconscious memories behind the cognitive dissonance 'mission' that the Luteces establish.

I was thinking the same thing.

I'll ask a second time, to see if I have any better luck with whoever's currently viewing the thread: Anyone know of an HD video on YouTube, of the PC version of BioShock, that shows the start of the game up through Raffle Square, with NO commentary, and ideally with a play style that takes in some of the iconic sights? I just wonder if anyone has bookmarked such a video, or knows of a channel that may have one. I'd like to shoot this part of the game to some people I know who had their minds blown by the Adam Sessler review but who don't play games.

If it makes you feel better I actually looked around on YouTube and didn't find anything. lol, your post wasn't totally ignored.

 

[Emerson]

So has anybody gone back and replayed Bioshock 1 to listen for the Songbird? I know there was some speculation about whether the videos were faked/viral material.

Nobody?

 

[DatDude]

Nobody?

Yes, they have. An it's there. It's not a hoax.

 

[Korey]

I'll ask a second time, to see if I have any better luck with whoever's currently viewing the thread: Anyone know of an HD video on YouTube, of the PC version of BioShock, that shows the start of the game up through Raffle Square, with NO commentary, and ideally with a play style that takes in some of the iconic sights? I just wonder if anyone has bookmarked such a video, or knows of a channel that may have one. I'd like to shoot this part of the game to some people I know who had their minds blown by the Adam Sessler review but who don't play games.

http://youtu.be/6iZZg2qiBos

?

So has anybody gone back and replayed Bioshock 1 to listen for the Songbird? I know there was some speculation about whether the videos were faked/viral material.

The videos are not fake, but most people think it's just a random ambient sound for that area (the noise repeats periodically), and/or that it's a reused sound asset. It's cool that it's in there but it's not likely intentional, unless Ken Levine can see through Tears.

 

[MrPink93485]

Did they ever say there wasn't? When you walk through the sea of doors you see other Elizabeth's and Bookers. Maybe your paths just didn't cross earlier.

*Shrug*

Maybe they're hopping into other dimensions as well which is why they don't show up as (player)Booker and Elizabeth jump into the dimension. Mind is full of fuck.

 

[Sorian]

Unless I'm remembering wrong, he did have a degree of cognitive dissonance upon appearing in the world and loses consciousness, hence his mumbling about 'get the girl, erase the debt' as the Lutece's drag him away from the island itself to a rowboat before it fades to black for a bit, presumably to make it 'appear' like he's waking up while travelling to the island as part of his mission.

Thats all correct which is why I believe there are varying degrees of cognitive dissonance. In a stage 1 scenario, there is no physical reaction. In a stage 2 scenario, he goes unconscious. In a stage 3 scenario, the brain gets injured (nose bleed). I propose that the baptism is a stage 2 scenario. If he was bleeding when the twins take him, they would have commented on it.

 

[Zeliard]

Thats all correct which is why I believe there are varying degrees of cognitive dissonance. In a stage 1 scenario, there is no physical reaction. In a stage 2 scenario, he goes unconscious. In a stage 3 scenario, the brain gets injured (nose bleed). I propose that the baptism is a stage 2 scenario. If he was bleeding when the twins take him, they would have commented on it.

Yeah the nosebleeds seem triggered by particularly significant dimensional breaches.

 

[Gorillaz]

It finally just clicked. The reason booker walked across the bridge after liz was taken, and everything was snowy/not the same as before was because old Elizabeth KNEW songbird would kill you each time you crossed the bridge, unless it was way...waaaay down the line.


I know it's like "duh" moment and she said it but....I never put it together just assumed.... got damn

 

[Sorian]

It finally just clicked. The reason booker walked across the bridge after liz was taken, and everything was snowy/not the same as before was because old Elizabeth KNEW songbird would kill you each time you crossed the bridge, unless it was way...waaaay down the line.


I know it's like "duh" moment and she said it but....I never put it together just assumed.... got damn

You were already dead in 1984.

 

[DatDude]

So apperantly Ken Levine referred to MIT Quantum Physicist PHD students for help when writing Infinite's narrative.

 

[Sorian]

So apperantly Ken Levine referred to MIT Quantum Physicist PHD students for help when writing Infinite's narrative.

That doesn't surprise me with Mr. Levine. Any source on that?

 

[DatDude]

That doesn't surprise me with Mr. Levine. Any source on that?

http://onpoint.wbur.org/2013/04/02/bioshock

around 39 minutes in.

edit: heard it wrong. It was actual MIT physicists, not students.

 

[Sorian]

http://onpoint.wbur.org/2013/04/02/bioshock

around 39 minutes in.

Ah, I was going to be listening to this interview when I got home. All the more reason to it seems.

 

[disappeared]

http://onpoint.wbur.org/2013/04/02/bioshock

around 39 minutes in.

edit: heard it wrong. It was actual MIT physicists, not students.

Nice. He certainly put in the due diligence.

 

[PepperJack]

So apperantly Ken Levine referred to MIT Quantum Physicist PHD students for help when writing Infinite's narrative.

That would honestly add nothing to the game, and he wasted his time. Physicists, especially the quantum type, live in caves and rarely see sunlight, let alone socialize with others. I know because I'm technically one - ever hear of "quantum dots"?

This game was bomb. Very anti-climatic ending - made me a bit irritated because I was about to go kill me some Comstocks. I accidentally read a spoiler by some random douche on neogaf who said "you are prophet and elizabeth kills you at the end", but didn't know what to make of it at the time, and also wasn't sure it was a spoiler. Once you kill comstock in the game, I was 100% convinced I couldn't be him, so it seems spoiling this game for someone would be hard regardless.

I was annoyed with all the lighthouses and the multiple timelines stuff, it made me tired. Some of that stuff could have been cut out. Personally I liked the simpler bioshock 1 story, where the twist comes near the end, but not as the end. I will certainly replay this game because I hardly used some of the vigors, and there is 1999 mode, but overall it's not a great endgame feeling.

*walks away feeling mindfucked*

 

[bodyofanamerican]

Sorry if this has been covered, but is there any functional reason for the seat to tip forward in the rocket at the beginning resulting in Booker losing his gun? Security measure for Columbia?