BioWare Veteran Calls Out People Celebrating Layoffs After Dragon Age: The Veilguard Backlash

Thanati said:
People who celebrate others' misery are assholes. It really is that simple. Who would be happy when someone loses their job?
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Maybe because the way they chose to do their job negatively impacted the product? I'm not personally celebrating anything, but I get the sentiment.

People would feel the same way about the firing of new chef who moved into a beloved restaurant's kitchen, changed all the recipes to suit their own convictions and dietary restrictions (without changing the names of the dishes), and railed at the customers who didn't like the changes to leave. First, those customers would leave. Then they'd feel very little sympathy when sales suffered and the chef was inevitably laid off. They'd also feel very little confidence in the restaurant ever righting the ship when it and the waitstaff continue to blame them for the restaurant's recent financial issues. Finally, I'd understand if they felt just a bit of savage satisfaction mixed with vindication when the restaurant finally did shut down.

No metaphor is perfect, but--if games really are a service, as well as art--the above is the best I could think of to capture the inevitable push and pull between creative vision (where that applies) and pleasing your customers. Whether the decisions came from above or within, EA and modern Bioware have absolutely brought this whole thing on themselves.

Best case scenario at this point: EA learns their lesson about the supposed "RPG cave," starts ordering and producing games people actually want to play, and the subsequent resounding success leads to better games and more jobs. Alas, it doesn't look like any of that is happening any time soon.
 
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Zannegan said:
Maybe because the way they chose to do their job negatively impacted the product? I'm not personally celebrating anything, but I get the sentiment.

People would feel the same way about the firing of new chef who moved into a beloved restaurant's kitchen, changed all the recipes to suit their own convictions and dietary restrictions (without changing the names of the dishes), and railed at the customers who didn't like the changes to leave. First, those customers would leave. Then they'd feel very little sympathy when sales suffered and the chef was inevitably laid off. They'd also feel very little confidence in the restaurant ever righting the ship when it and the waitstaff continue to blame them for the restaurant's recent financial issues. Finally, I'd understand if they felt just a bit of savage satisfaction mixed with vindication when the restaurant finally did shut down.

No metaphor is perfect, but--if games really are a service, as well as art--the above is the best I could think of to capture the inevitable push and pull between creative vision (where that applies) and pleasing your customers. Whether the decisions came from above or within, EA and modern Bioware have absolutely brought this whole thing on themselves.

Best case scenario at this point: EA learns their lesson about the supposed "RPG cave," starts ordering and producing games people actually want to play, and the subsequent resounding success leads to better games and more jobs. Alas, it doesn't look like any of that is happening any time soon.
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I understand what you're trying to say, but you're missing the overarching aspect.

The people who create the games; sound designers, game designers, QA, PM's, programmers etc. THEY are the ones who are affected. No matter how you try to say it, people who celebrate when others lose their jobs are, as I stated, assholes.

These are people who are often told "do this" or "this is the game we're making, do this like this".

The fact that it ends up good or bad is often not their fault. Now, you mentioned EA etc. Again, the people who worked on the game are told what game they need to be making, those at the top are the ones who call the shots and it's never them who are laid off.

But when you have someone celebrating others for losing their jobs, people who are potentially the only wage-earner in a family, then those celebrating are assholes. It really is that simple.

If people don't like the game that was made, then sure, feel free to show your dissent but mocking people who lost their job as a result? That's just beyond low.
 
Thanati said:
And in this market, it's crazy. So these people, who have families and mouths to feed are now struggling to find a job.

Show some compassion, dude.
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No. You know why? Because for these people to have that job, MORE VALUABLE ONES were dismissed.

There are many good creators out there who never have the opportunity because the money goes to others who don't deserve it. So I will celebrate their downfall.

I'm suffering this first hand in the publishing industry and have zero sympathy for hacks who antagonize their audience and get a spot they have not earned with talent and effort.
 
Thanati said:
I understand what you're trying to say, but you're missing the overarching aspect.

The people who create the games; sound designers, game designers, QA, PM's, programmers etc. THEY are the ones who are affected. No matter how you try to say it, people who celebrate when others lose their jobs are, as I stated, assholes.

These are people who are often told "do this" or "this is the game we're making, do this like this".

The fact that it ends up good or bad is often not their fault. Now, you mentioned EA etc. Again, the people who worked on the game are told what game they need to be making, those at the top are the ones who call the shots and it's never them who are laid off.

But when you have someone celebrating others for losing their jobs, people who are potentially the only wage-earner in a family, then those celebrating are assholes. It really is that simple.

If people don't like the game that was made, then sure, feel free to show your dissent but mocking people who lost their job as a result? That's just beyond low.
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Surely if those people were at the opposite of your politic spectrum you would say the same thing, and not chanting while asking for their heads. Right?
 
I do feel sorry for the technical folks. By all accounts the game was relatively polished, complete, and bug free on day 1, and it ran well.

Zero sympathy for anybody on the creative side though. Bunch of talentless narcissistic twats who at best had no idea what made BioWare great to begin with, and at worst actively hated their audience.
 
Dont give a fuck what the old timer says, half the time these fired devs are perfectly happy to push their agenda,their bile etc or to outright insult their entire audience preemptively. And yet here he is saying we dont have the right to fire back? No fuck off, stop hiring activists, stop allowing devs to feather and tar entire fanbases, stop letting them act like retards FIRST and maybe, just maybe they'll get less vitriol in return.
 
nial said:
He's right. Not even a drive-by post, he's 100% correct with everything there.
The fact that this needs to be said is extremely concerning:
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For the social media part - ok. For the layoffs part - what kind of sick logic is this?

Devs did a shit job, game didn't sell, devs are laid off. How is this different than any other industry? Why should I not celebrate that someone faced consequences of his poor job performance? Do we reward mediocrity now?
 
Elfstar said:
Surely if those people were at the opposite of your politic spectrum you would say the same thing, and not chanting while asking for their heads. Right?
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To laugh at anyone's misfortune is just wrong.

You can try and bring as many examples as you like but why? Why laugh at others when they're just trying their best?
 
Angry_Megalodon said:
No. You know why? Because for these people to have that job, MORE VALUABLE ONES were dismissed.

There are many good creators out there who never have the opportunity because the money goes to others who don't deserve it. So I will celebrate their downfall.

I'm suffering this first hand in the publishing industry and have zero sympathy for hacks who antagonize their audience and get a spot they have not earned with talent and effort.
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And how do you know more "valuable ones were dismissed" so they could get the job?

That is utter nonsense.

The people who were let go were not that ones making the decisions. You realize that, right? They are told "do this".

That's it.
 
Thanati said:
People who celebrate others' misery are assholes. It really is that simple. Who would be happy when someone loses their job?
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If I did a shitty work, I wouldn't have a job for long and that would be fair. But sure let's encourages mediocrity right?

Edit: and for the "why are you all so mean to them???"

Maybe they (the devs) should think before calling gamers names and don't be surprised when it backfire.
 
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KyoZz said:
If I did a shitty work, I wouldn't have a job for long and that would be fair. But sure let's encourages mediocrity right?
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No, you're absolutely correct. If you do a shitty job, then you get fired. Absolutely agree. 100%

What i'm saying is that most of the people who are let go often don't get a choice in the way things are moving.

For example, if a senior artist creates a concept art style, that then gets reviewed by the creative director and feedback is provided i.e. "Do more of this, do less of that but i want that". So the artist goes away and makes the changes. Chances are, when layoffs happen, it's the artist who is let go, not the creative director in this instance. As a result, does that artist deserve to be mocked, when they had no real say in how things were?

When we decide to mock people, when we have zero idea what they went through, is a really telling example of what we have become as a species.

Is it OK to get angry at a certain direction? Of course, absolutely. If we don't like something, we're vocal about it. But to mock someone who lost their job, when they have others who are relying on them for income, is just asinine. Can you imagine how someone already feels? The stress and worry they have for trying to pay the bills, rent, buying food etc and then reading that people are laughing at their situation, is truly disheartening.
 
EviLore said:
Generally speaking, no one on the internet really cares whether you live or die, never mind if you got laid off.
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What about thoughts and prayers, though? That means something, right?

Thanati said:
To laugh at anyone's misfortune is just wrong.

You can try and bring as many examples as you like but why? Why laugh at others when they're just trying their best?
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Bla! If you try to spit in my soup I'll celebrate your downfall. I have zero empathy with anyone but the handful of engine tech people and the grunt work artists. Anyone higher than that did a terrible job or actively tried to force political agenda or even insulted the customers which is an absolute no go.
 
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Thanati said:
No, you're absolutely correct. If you do a shitty job, then you get fired. Absolutely agree. 100%
What i'm saying is that most of the people who are let go often don't get a choice in the way things are moving.
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We (gamers) are shitty -in other things- if we go by them (Bioware devs). So I'd say fuck them, they don't know me either. We don't need people like you trying to support them, they need to pay the price for their actions and big mouth.

Thanati said:
For example, if a senior artist creates a concept art style, that then gets reviewed by the creative director and feedback is provided i.e. "Do more of this, do less of that but i want that". So the artist goes away and makes the changes. Chances are, when layoffs happen, it's the artist who is let go, not the creative director in this instance. As a result, does that artist deserve to be mocked, when they had no real say in how things were?
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You are missing the part when Bioware devs (not the executives, mind you!) called gamers names again, and again, and again... Of course there is a time people are gonna be fed up.
Again if I act like that in my job, I would need to search another one by the day, but them? "oh noooo poor Bioware"?? Nah...

Thanati said:
When we decide to mock people, when we have zero idea what they went through, is a really telling example of what we have become as a species.

Is it OK to get angry at a certain direction? Of course, absolutely. If we don't like something, we're vocal about it. But to mock someone who lost their job, when they have others who are relying on them for income, is just asinine. Can you imagine how someone already feels? The stress and worry they have for trying to pay the bills, rent, buying food etc and then reading that people are laughing at their situation, is truly disheartening.
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Ask yourself why Bioware was once respected by everyone and now everything went to shit. I'm not happy. Make good games, shut you mouth and they'll be fine. But Bioware 2025 can't, because POLITICS.

They brought this to themselves, I would LOVE to see Bioware strive again but it's not happening.
 
Thanati said:
No, you're absolutely correct. If you do a shitty job, then you get fired. Absolutely agree. 100%

What i'm saying is that most of the people who are let go often don't get a choice in the way things are moving.

For example, if a senior artist creates a concept art style, that then gets reviewed by the creative director and feedback is provided i.e. "Do more of this, do less of that but i want that". So the artist goes away and makes the changes. Chances are, when layoffs happen, it's the artist who is let go, not the creative director in this instance. As a result, does that artist deserve to be mocked, when they had no real say in how things were?

When we decide to mock people, when we have zero idea what they went through, is a really telling example of what we have become as a species.

Is it OK to get angry at a certain direction? Of course, absolutely. If we don't like something, we're vocal about it. But to mock someone who lost their job, when they have others who are relying on them for income, is just asinine. Can you imagine how someone already feels? The stress and worry they have for trying to pay the bills, rent, buying food etc and then reading that people are laughing at their situation, is truly disheartening.
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Ok so we don't cheer at people that had no choice during development and now have lost their job.

Can we be happy that the ones that have proved to be untalented, toxic, that actively pushed the game in a direction that fans didn't have been removed from their positions?
Sorry for their families and all of that. Find another job where you aren't such a liability. They don't need to starve, etc. Whatever.

Cool with that?
 
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I only feel sorry for people who didn't want to go along with the nonsense losing their jobs but then they probably were sacked before for not following like sheep. They made a game to serve their own ideological interests before business. It would be like a vegan buying McDonald's and making all the burgers vegan and being shocked their sales are bad
 
Schmendrick said:
What about thoughts and prayers, though? That means something, right?


Bla! If you try to spit in my soup I'll celebrate your downfall. I have zero empathy with anyone but the handful of engine tech people and the grunt work artists. Anyone higher than that and pretty much the all of the "creative" side and ofc the management did a miserable job.
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Yeah. We know the kind of person you are.
Elfstar said:
Ok so we don't cheer at people that had no choice during development and now have lost their job.

Can we be happy that the ones that have proved to be untalented, toxic, that actively pushed the game in a direction that fans didn't want to be removed from their positions?
Sorry for their families and all of that. Find another job where you aren't such a liability. They don't need to starve, etc. Whatever.

Cool with that?
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As I said, most of the time, the people who are let go are NOT the ones who are making those decisions.
 
KyoZz said:
We (gamers) are shitty -in other things- if we go by them (Bioware devs). So I'd say fuck them, they don't know me either. We don't need people like you trying to support them, they need to pay the price for their actions and big mouth.


You are missing the part when Bioware devs (not the executives, mind you!) called gamers names again, and again, and again... Of course there is a time people are gonna be fed up.
Again if I act like that in my job, I would need to search another one by the day, but them? "oh noooo poor Bioware"?? Nah...


Ask yourself why Bioware was once respected by everyone and now everything went to shit. I'm not happy. Make good games, shut you mouth and they'll be fine. But Bioware 2025 can't, because POLITICS.

They brought this to themselves, I would LOVE to see Bioware strive again but it's not happening.
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And the politics is often driven by the higher-ups, who often have plenty of money (stocks, salary and severance package) when the ones who are usually let go are the ones who are simply carrying out their job and doing what they are told to do.
 
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I wish the creative leads and upper management were the ones that got the axe. They're the ones that took the game in its awful "woke" direction to pander to western progressive bullshit. The programmers/artists were jus doing their jobs.
 
Thanati said:
And the politics is often driven by the higher-ups, who often have plenty of money (stocks, salary and severance package) when the ones who are usually let go are the ones who are simply carrying out their job and doing what they are told to do.
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I don't know why you keep bringing up higher ups when in this case the devs are the one doing it, calling gamers nazi etc...
Bioware is just a shell at this point, any talented dev is gone long ago.
 
KyoZz said:
I don't know why you keep bringing up higher ups when in this case the devs are the one doing it, calling gamers nazi etc...
Bioware is just a shell at this point, any talented dev is gone long ago.
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The link you provided doesn't work.
 
To put things into perspective how Bioware has changed the past few gens.

1. All those legendary CRPGs on PC in the 90s and early 2000s + Xbox OG Jade Empire:

2. About 10-20 years ago during the 360/PS3 gen (and DA Inquisition in 2014)
- 3 Mass Effect games
- 3 Dragon Age games
- SW Old Republic

3. Since 2017 (8 years)
- ME Andromeda
- Anthem
- ME Legendary Edition (which is really just remastered ME 1, 2, 3)
- DA Veilguard

How the hell do you go from solid #1 and #2 to #3? lol
 
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KyoZz said:
Do you own research, If you're gonna take their defense at least be informed ffs. Have you been living in a cave for the past 10 years?

A hint: "This game is not for you!" but there are more.
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All I said was that the link you seemed to have provided didn't work. Why are you being so defensive about that!? "do your own research"? Seriously?
 
These people weren't crying when a large portion of the US population lost their jobs at the beginning of covid. Wasn't "learn to code" their official line?
 
Thanati said:
All I said was that the link you seemed to have provided didn't work. Why are you being so defensive about that!? "do your own research"? Seriously?
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Well then it's a misunderstanding, apologize.

Because I haven't provided any link, just bolded a part that I thought was important. So you saying "your link is not working" I interpreted it as "show me the receipt".
 
KyoZz said:
Well then it's a misunderstanding, apologize.

Because I haven't provided any link, just bolded a part that I thought was important. So you saying "your link is not working" I interpreted it as "show me the receipt".
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Ah. I thought the underlined text was a link. I apologize.
 
{insert code here} said:
Origins is an all-time classic and I should probably get around to replaying it. It's been long enough it'll probably feel like a new game.
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I replayed it a couple of years ago for the first time in a decade. You'd be surprised how much of the game you forget in that time span.

Incredible game, mostly due to writing and characters. One of the all-time RPG greats.
 
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Reveling in someone else's misery is a sin to me. While I can be happy to see the good guys win, to wish misery or evil on the bad guys is a step too far. It's also being a sore winner. Never be a sore winner.
 
{insert code here} said:
Origins is an all-time classic and I should probably get around to replaying it. It's been long enough it'll probably feel like a new game.
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Orzammar alone is worth it. In fact, even though I fucking hate dwarves, I recently played as a dwarf just so that I could experience Orzammar from that early on. Is it cliché? Dwarves living in the mountain etc? Sure. But it's well executed. From the writing to the whole setup of why your dude ends up joining the Gray Wardens.
 
StreetsofBeige said:
To put things into perspective how Bioware has changed the past few gens.

1. All those legendary CRPGs on PC in the 90s and early 2000s + Xbox OG Jade Empire:

2. About 10-20 years ago during the 360/PS3 gen (and DA Inquisition in 2014)
- 3 Mass Effect games
- 3 Dragon Age games
- SW Old Republic

3. Since 2017 (8 years)
- ME Andromeda
- Anthem
- ME Legendary Edition (which is really just remastered ME 1, 2, 3)
- DA Veilguard

How the hell do you go from solid #1 and #2 to #3? lol
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How? It's simple. All the people from 1 got old and retired. The founders left after 1. The people of 2 inherited what 1 taught them and continued to follow in their footsteps but gradually they also got old and retired or left to found new studios. After time, no one from 1 or 2 remained. Now Bioware is just a brand name, the people of 3 have nothing to do with the legacy of 1 and 2 and it's glaringly obvious that the modern studio is a failure that only makes flops and bombs
 
ToneyJ said:
I wish the creative leads and upper management were the ones that got the axe. They're the ones that took the game in its awful "woke" direction to pander to western progressive bullshit. The programmers/artists were jus doing their jobs.
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Yeah I'm not really understanding the sentiment of some in here. Glad this is sending a message, but feel bad for those that did their jobs well.

I think people painting with a broad brush on either side here don't know what the fuck they're talking about and just love being angry with zero nuance because thinking critically is too difficult.
 
Schmendrick said:
Bla! If you try to spit in my soup I'll celebrate your downfall. I have zero empathy with anyone but the handful of engine tech people and the grunt work artists. Anyone higher than that did a terrible job or actively tried to force political agenda or even insulted the customers which is an absolute no go.
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I think you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater here.

Do you really think the majority of AAA developer roles are decision makers rather than team contributors? :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Fuck the decision makers on this game. Every one of them. Problem is that's not most people that work at these companies.
 
BossLackey said:
Do you really think the majority of AAA developer roles are decision makers rather than team contributors? :messenger_tears_of_joy:
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No? Didn`t say that either?
But collateral damage is unavoidable, and I choose to cheer for the failure of those decision makers and hope higher management learns from this rather than to cry about the footsoldiers.
 
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Schmendrick said:
No? Didn`t say that either?
But collateral damage is unavoidable, and I choose to cheer for the failure of those decision makers and hope higher management learns from this rather than to cry about the footsoldiers.
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That's completely fair and I'd say I'm in agreement. The collateral damage is worth it every time if companies like this take a hit or take the hint.
 
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