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[Altairre]

I remember that other famous MLK quote, "The only way the white man will show empathy and solidarity with the black man is by making him miss his flight." Actually, I imagine MLK knew what would be counter productive and what wouldn't which is why he never blocked access to New York International Airport.

It's not about empathy or solidarity. That's why it's called disruptive protest. And Slayven already mentioned in this very thread that if this is what causes them to go "I can't support their fight against oppression anymore because it inconvenienced me" then those people were never going to do anything meaningful in the first place.

 

[Viewt]

Also, to those of you poo-pooing the idea that inconveniencing airport-goers can work as a civil rights protest, please look no further than one of the best examples:

The Shit In

The short version is that, here in Chicago, Mayor Daley the First decided he was going back on some of his promises to black voters on the South Side back in the 60s. So legendary community organizer Saul Alinsky decided to target one of Daley's biggest points of pride: O'Hare Airport.

Some of our people went out to the airport and made a comprehensive intelligence study of how many sit-down pay toilets and stand-up urinals there were in the whole O’Hare complex and how many men and women we’d need for the country’s first “shit-in.” It turned out we’d require about 2500 people, which was no problem for TWO. For the sit-down toilets, our people would just put in their dimes and prepare to wait it out; we arranged for them to bring box lunches and reading material along to help pass the time. What were desperate passengers going to do — knock the cubicle door down and demand evidence of legitimate occupancy? This meant that the ladies’ lavatories could be completely occupied; in the men’s, we’d take care of the pay toilets and then have floating groups moving from one urinal to another, positioning themselves four or five deep and standing there for five minutes before being relieved by a co-conspirator, at which time they would pass on to another rest room. Once again, what’s some poor sap at the end of the line going to say: “Hey, pal, you’re taking too long to piss”?

Now, imagine for a second the catastrophic consequences of this tactic. Constipated and bladder-bloated passengers would mill about the corridors in anguish and desperation, longing for a place to relieve themselves. O’Hare would become a shambles! You can imagine the national and international ridicule and laughter the story would create. It would probably make the front page of the London Times. And who would be more mortified than Mayor Daley?

Just the threat of doing this was enough to get Daley to fold. He fulfilled his campaign promises, and that was that.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Ah. Another thread where comvenience is suppose to be the end all be all.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

I'm all for protesting and voicing your concerns to bring light to issues, but don't waste other peoples time and money

Yeah, we wouldn't want people's time and money to be wasted in the name of having minorities be treated like human beings

 

[jonno394]

And to those of you with your arms crossed acting all hot and bothered, your grandchildren will read about this in class, and ask you if you marched, if you protested, if you supported Black Lives Matter.

And you'll scrunch up your nose a bit, look off into the distance, and lie, "Yeah, of course."

I'm pretty sure I won't, but then I'm not really getting "hot and bothered" by their actions.

 

[DragonSworne]

I'm sure you would have been against the Civil Rights Movement, too.

There are always going to be people on the wrong side of history. I suppose you're one of them.

Pretty much this.

When you are arguing that the convenience of one group is more important than the lives of another, then you are most likely on the wrong side of history.

 

[Azoor]

Is the police in the UK as brutal and unfair to black people as it is in the US ?

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Another BLM thread, more people assuming for some moronic reason that BLM is out to make friends, like making friends with do-nothing motherfuckers would ever get them anything.

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

This has got to be some kind of joke, right? There's nobody involved in this movement that even comes close to MLK Jr. or Rosa Parks.

Because its a movement that isn't lead by a figurehead but that doesn't change its effectiveness if anything that makes it more adaptable and effective.

 

[DeathyBoy]

Is there a large problem with police violence against black people in the UK? I don't doubt that it is far from perfect, but unlike in the US it seems over there police officers rarely shoot someone. Of course there are other issues, but this is the main one for Black Lives Matter I think?

I don't know what to say to this.

Yes, there is a problem here.

 

[Übermatik]

A lot of standard, dead-pan British humour being misinterpreted in this thread...! I think the text format makes it difficult sometimes, what with the inability to apply tone/inflection.

 

[gerg]

oh no vacation time is ruined

Not everyone who goes on vacation has enough money to buy more tickets, or to view the experience as frivolous enough to miss out. Some proportion of the people who are disrupted by the experience will be of a similar socio-economic status as some of those which Black Lives Matters seeks to represent.

Is the police in the UK as brutal and unfair to black people as it is in the US ?

I've heard statistics that says that the relative proportion of ethnic minorities in British prisons is worse than in the US, but I think the issue is differentiated here by the greater proportion of non-black Muslim and Middle Eastern populations.

 

[Lime]

If people want to support and join event tonight in the UK here's a FB link with information https://www.facebook.com/events/1161708690535045/

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

Another BLM thread, more people assuming for some moronic reason that BLM is out to make friends, like making friends with do-nothing motherfuckers would ever get them anything.

Considering how much the organization has grown I say they are quite effective at making friends; Friends that can get shit done.

 

[Squalor]

Not everyone who goes on vacation has enough money to buy more tickets, or to view the experience as frivolous enough to miss out. Some proportion of the people who are disrupted by the experience will be of a similar socio-economic status as those which Black Lives Matters seeks to represent.

See:

I'm sure you would have been against the Civil Rights Movement, too.

There are always going to be people on the wrong side of history. I suppose you're one of them.

 

[gerg]

See:

I'm not sure I understand how that functions as a response to my point, which I would argue is that "oh no vacation time is ruined" seems to belie a minimalising of class politics within a rights movement.

Of course it is entirely possible that the disruption caused by this event will trigger enough awareness to justify it. But I think it inaccurate to suggest that the only people affected by it are exclusively, as it were, the victors of a system - it is one thing to argue that the benefits outweigh the cons; it is another to argue that the cons don't exist in the first place.

 

[RulkezX]

I'm not sure I understand how that functions as a response to my point.

He's calling you a racist without calling you a racist.

 

[TheAdmiester]

I'm not sure I understand how that functions as a response to my point.

It doesn't. People just like to call racism on anything that isn't 1000% supportive of this stuff.

 

[Loudninja]

Sounds like a good way to make no one care what they're protesting about

They never cared to begin with if this is all it takes.

 

[PopeReal]

Speaking of money wasted, Americans spend millions covering the civil lawsuits from all of the deaths caused by the police. And all of those trials and settlements take time.

I guess many Americans are more comfortable wasting time and money on black people being targeted and killed than they are with some delayed traffic.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

It doesn't. People just like to call racism on anything that isn't 1000% supportive of this stuff.

Because not supporting equal rights is racist.

I get what you're saying, but people forget BLM has been around for nearly five years now. This has been plenty of time for the fucking millions of complainers who say they actually do care to have done a single thing of merit or note in the fight for civil rights. Show us the right way, anyone.

 

[Yaboosh]

Did anybody even miss their flight to the Bahamas? Any flights cancelled? Did Ruth get on her plane?

 

[jonno394]

Because not supporting equal rights is racist.

I get what you're saying, but people forget BLM has been around for nearly five years now. This has been plenty of time for the fucking millions of complainers who say they actually do care to have done a single thing of merit or note in the fight for civil rights. Show us the right way, anyone.

I support equal rights, I just don't want the campaign for them affecting my journey to work :shrugs:

 

[Kenshin001]

It's not about empathy or solidarity. That's why it's called disruptive protest. And Slayven already mentioned in this very thread that if this is what causes them to go "I can't support their fight against oppression anymore because it inconvenienced me" then those people were never going to do anything meaningful in the first place.

If it is not about empathy or solidarity why are you talking about supporting their fight? No-one is going to support the fight of people who fuck up your plans that you have spent considerable time and money on, that is not how most humans work. It's not like being half an hour late for work, it's a bloody international flight. Seems the people cheering this on have never left their country before.

 

[shintoki]

The thing about people coming out against Black Lives Matter is, at this point, it's pretty clear how history is going to look at that group. They're one of the most prominent voices of the new civil rights era, and in 50 years, many of the people involved will be looked at as our generation's MLK or Rosa Parks. And to those of you with your arms crossed acting all hot and bothered, your grandchildren will read about this in class, and ask you if you marched, if you protested, if you supported Black Lives Matter.

And you'll scrunch up your nose a bit, look off into the distance, and lie, "Yeah, of course."

They'll be closer to Anonymous or Occupy Wall Street. It's an idea, not a person people are flocking too. In the end, they will need someone to centralize around otherwise the miscommunication between the groups is going to hurt them.

 

[Kenshin001]

I support equal rights, I just don't want the campaign for them affecting my journey to work :shrugs:

You fly to work?

 

[Trojan X]

Is there a large problem with police violence against black people in the UK? I don't doubt that it is far from perfect, but unlike in the US it seems over there police officers rarely shoot someone. Of course there are other issues, but this is the main one for Black Lives Matter I think?

UK is no way as bad as the US so i am thoroughly confused to why this is happening. If anything, the UK suffers from sorarity racism, but nothing in the kind that caused blm to exist.

 

[jonno394]

You fly to work?

Well, it's not just Heathrow Airport that was affected today

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

UK is no way as bad as the US so i am thoroughly confused to why this is happening. If anything, the UK suffers from sorarity racism, but nothing in the kind that caused blm to exist.

You could read what they put out. It's not like they're hiding themselves or their motivations.

 

[hodgy100]

You fly to work?

they did prevent public transport from performing as intended to be fair (tied themselves to tram tracks and blocked roads.)

 

[Jezbollah]

Well, it's not just Heathrow Airport that was affected today

Indeed. The entire nation was shut down.

 

[jonno394]

Indeed. The entire nation was shut down.

I don't get what you're trying to say here. I never said anything other than "I support things like this as long as it doesn't affect my day to day activities" and that's true. Equal rights for all, just don't do anything to annoy me like create traffic jams or make me miss a flight

 

[Bleepey]

Is the police in the UK as brutal and unfair to black people as it is in the US ?

Not remotely in the same ball park. Like less than 3 people get shot by police in the UK annually.

 

[Lonely1]

There's racism in the UK, friends, family and myself have experienced it first hand. But are police killings of minorities a problem?

 

[MilkyJoe]

Being in prison isn't the only form of being in "police custody"

And you still started out and finished with flat percentages of the police killings, as if that proves some kind of a point. There are more white people in the UK, so there will be more white people killed, but that doesn't mean anything in a discussion about problems being proportionately greater for minority populations. Can't think of a more simple way to put it.

You still don't get what's being discussed, and I'm sorry I can't elucidate for you.

As prison numbers are the only solid figures to hand, and being arrested often leads to a prison sentence, then I would say that as getting banged up over night is not something on any report I have found, then we can use said figures as a reasonable guide to work from.

You use the word "proportionally" and then object to me using percentages when proportions are measured in either fractions or percentage. Which way do you want it?

And as you have ploughed into my numbers and hijacked my original comment that simply states they are peddling an incorrect figure, then maybe you should reel your neck in a bit.

 

[EGM1966]

Did anybody even miss their flight to the Bahamas? Any flights cancelled? Did Ruth get on her plane?

Don't believe so. At least none noted.

Not really the point but as you ask and I get travel bulletins on Heathrow I figure I might as well respond.

Thus far protests seem to have resulted in minor disruption followed by arrests.

 

[Squalor]

I'm not sure I understand how that functions as a response to my point, which I would argue is that "oh no vacation time is ruined" seems to belie a minimalising of class politics within a rights movement.

Of course it is entirely possible that the disruption caused by this event will trigger enough awareness to justify it. But I think it inaccurate to suggest that the only people affected by it are exclusively, as it were, the victors of a system - it is one thing to argue that the benefits outweigh the cons; it is another to argue that the cons don't exist in the first place.

Are you weighing these cons as more important than the every-day cons that minorities face?

It's a protest. It's disruptive. Yes.

You've said nothing about the cause in commiseration or support. You're just worried about the disruption they're causing.

Don't believe so. At least none noted.

Not really the point but as you ask and I get travel bulletins on Heathrow I figure I might as well respond.

Thus far protests seem to have resulted in minor disruption followed by arrests.

So people in here with no information whatsoever who are complaining about how disruptive BLM is being are complaining out of their asses?

Surprising.

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

See the post I just made. Targetting airports because of Brexit is casting a net so wide you're going to catch many people who had nothing to do with Brexit.

Also that comment was a largely aimed at police forces. As we don't hand out guns like candy and do a much better job of restraint than America, our forces aren't murdering people in the same levels seen over there.

Doesn't matter. The police in the UK are still incredibly racist, regardless of whether they have guns or not. If they did have guns, you'd sure as shit see a tonne of shootings like you do in the US.

 

[xKilltheMx]

The thing about people coming out against Black Lives Matter is, at this point, it's pretty clear how history is going to look at that group. They're one of the most prominent voices of the new civil rights era, and in 50 years, many of the people involved will be looked at as our generation's MLK or Rosa Parks. And to those of you with your arms crossed acting all hot and bothered, your grandchildren will read about this in class, and ask you if you marched, if you protested, if you supported Black Lives Matter.

And you'll scrunch up your nose a bit, look off into the distance, and lie, "Yeah, of course."

Jesus this shit hit home.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

If I didn't know any better I would think racism didn't exist in Europe given the insistance by people in this thread.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

The key there is someone. Not everyone.

Shit like this is super counter productive.

Do you think protests are pep rallies for the unmotivated masses? Read some damn history.

 

[sphagnum]

More power to them.

 

[gerg]

Are you weighing these cons as more important than the every-day cons that minorities face?

I replied specifically to one comment to suggest that, while (in the grand scheme of things) missing a holiday doesn't compare to the problems faced by minorities within the UK, dismissing that effect might belie a greater minimalising of class dynamics that could end up being counter-productive to the movement. Perhaps in this instance that concern was unmerited.

Nevertheless, logically, you can't have it both ways. You can't argue that the protest functions as a form of disruption while reducing the actual effect of that disruption on people.

You've said nothing about the cause in commiseration or support.

I don't think it necessary that every post should have a bracketed or appended list of qualifying supportive statements regarding a matter such that any criticism of it can be justified.

[Edit: In any case, in the same original post I wrote a comment seeking to underscore how race-relations in the UK might be viewed as comparatively worse than the US, thus suggesting, if only implicitly, that the disruptive tactics of movements like BLM could be justified.]

You're just worried about the disruption they're causing.

I think it could be interesting as to why my mind immediately turns to the disruption than the course, sure. Perhaps I lean too heavily on a class-related understanding of the situation that does not properly appreciate race as a distinct vertex. Perhaps I overestimate the number of (poorer) people who will be affected by this form of protest. Perhaps I question the tactical merits of this action regarding the quantity of the disruption caused in proportion to the capacity to raise awareness of the issues to which it relates.

 

[EGM1966]

There's racism in the UK, friends, family and myself have experienced it first hand. But are police killings of minorities a problem?

On the evidence no. If you mean as notable and frequent.

There have been some and when unjustified they are obviously reprehensible but no while racism in the police does remain an issue it's hardly at US levels and there are activities to counter it in place.

Don't get me wrong: there's racism in UK and in particular certain places but it's much better overall and without the disruptive influence of terrorism giving right wing more support it would be even better again.

Overall I'd say in UK the fight has moved beyond simple protest of its existence to need to continue with longer term programs and activities to remove remaining causes of racism.

The key issue is more certain groups (which includes Blacks) are less likely to get on necessary education and social ladders to succed vs their peers from other ethnicities which disadvantages them in attainment.

 

[SirClinksAlot]

If I didn't know any better I would think racism didn't exist in Europe given the insistance by people in this thread.

They have better gun laws than the US so the police don't shoot as many people but uppity minorities still complain!

 

[Htown]

What did MLK say about ruining people's vacations?

I'm just gonna quote this because I am having trouble believing it.

I'll be back later, I just...

 

[dave is ok]

There's racism in the UK, friends, family and myself have experienced it first hand. But are police killings of minorities a problem?

Judging by the fact that their poster has like five photos on it and some are 20+ years old, I don't think it's as big of an issue as in America.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

Does BLM have a singular standard bearer like MLK?

 

[zer0das]

You know, when you block roads and cause highways to be closed and hamper everyday people to do their tasks like getting to work or what not you're just coming across as some assholes and people will be more angry and frustrated about the movement which kinda ruins the entire point.

I don't see the positive outcome of doing this.

You'd want people to get on your side not push them away.

Civil rights is pretty inconvenient for a lot of people one way or another. I don't get why people mention this constantly, like you weren't even personally inconvenienced so why do you care? And even if you were, what's one day when we're talking about the course of human history? It comes across as the most hollow, selfish rhetoric and is basically dancing around the fact you probably don't like the movement at its core and are just using traffic as an excuse to downplay it.

 

[DedValve]

Does BLM have a singular standard bearer like MLK?

Not at all or we would have heard about them by now. However maybe thats for the best as it seems BLM is a global decentralized operation. I didn't even know about BLM UK and thats fucking awesome.

Black lives are treated like shit, differently all across the world. I can't imagine UK having anywhere near as close to gun violence precisely because of the gun laws there but black lives are still suffering. That video from this tweet shows light to other, just as serious problems of black lives in the UK: https://twitter.com/ukblm/status/760792422746128386

Power to you BLM UK!