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[MilkyJoe]

If people want to support and join event tonight in the UK here's a FB link with information https://www.facebook.com/events/1161708690535045/

It's over Mark Duggan?


I can see it being hijacked for another night of rioting and looting.

 

[Jezbollah]

Does BLM have a singular standard bearer like MLK?

Lenny Henry.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Does BLM have a singular standard bearer like MLK?

I mean, you know he was assassinated for it, right?

Most BLM groups are run by LGBT black women and femmes.

 

[Mecha]

Does BLM have a singular standard bearer like MLK?

No, but it doesn't need one. BLM should be focused on empowering communities to act in ways that they feel works for their unique situations rather than following a leader.

 

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Does BLM have a singular standard bearer like MLK?

There are those in the movement that are treated as such. For instance, Deray McKesson. But within the org, no.

And seeing how the founders are black queer women, I'm sure the media doesn't want them to be.


Plus, MLK, Malcolm, and some Black Panthers got killed. Why would anyone willing put themselves in the crosshairs like that?

 

[Blunoise]

Ok so is this going to hinder my plane from coming in on Saturday. I'm black and I want to visit Europe. Black Lives Matter I love you, but please don't hinder my trip to see the world

 

[RulkezX]

The key issue is more certain groups (which includes Blacks) are less likely to get on necessary education and social ladders to succed vs their peers from other ethnicities which disadvantages them in attainment.

This isn't true.

The EHRC did the most comprehensive study of its kind last year and white males from poor backgrounds were the ones being left behind in school and in seeking education or work post high school.


White boys and girls fell behind every other ethnic group in the study.

Of course this was younger people, the issues are likely different for adults.

 

[The Cowboy]

Doesn't matter. The police in the UK are still incredibly racist, regardless of whether they have guns or not. If they did have guns, you'd sure as shit see a tonne of shootings like you do in the US.

The police in Northern Ireland had guns for years during the height of the troubles and this never happened - I'd wager it wouldn't happen even if all police in the UK had guns.

Mass police shootings wouldn't be accepted in the UK no matter who was being shot.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

I mean, you know he was assassinated for it, right?

Most BLM groups are run by LGBT black women and femmes.

What does "femmes" mean in this context?

 

[Africanus]

Does BLM have a singular standard bearer like MLK?

No and it may be better that way. Racial politics stalled a tad as a result of that image of MLK as the golden leader, and his assassination being a Christ like sacrifice that eliminated racism forever.

BLM I feel is more adaptable for our time.

 

[DrArchon]

Out of sheer curiosity and acceptance of my own ignorance of the subject, what's the situation like with minority-police relationships in the UK? It just seems weird to me to do this outside of America unless it's really bad over there as well but I haven't heard anything that would indicate that.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

What does "femmes" mean in this context?

Could be lots of things, generally just people out of the gender binary identifying as leaning feminine from center.

 

[gerg]

No and it may be better that way. Racial politics stalled a tad as a result of that image of MLK as the golden leader, and his assassination being a Christ like sacrifice that eliminated racism forever.

I think it precisely the lack of a single leader of the BLM movement (or, more accurately, the structural reasons for that) that make it such an incredible successful and diffused movement.

 

[bishoptl]

Nana Ruth nooooooo.....

That trans Atlantic flight for her lifesaving operation noooooooooo

Right on time

 

[Spring-Loaded]

As prison numbers are the only solid figures to hand, and being arrested often leads to a prison sentence, then I would say that as getting banged up over night is not something on any report I have found, then we can use said figures as a reasonable guide to work from.

You use the word "proportionally" and then object to me using percentages when proportions are measured in either fractions or percentage. Which way do you want it?

And as you have ploughed into my numbers and hijacked my original comment that simply states they are peddling an incorrect figure, then maybe you should reel your neck in a bit.

but I thought you were "moving on."

They mention the total number of killings since 1993 without saying "of black people," seemingly as a way of framing what's to come in the video. Tangential, but not incorrect. You saw it that way though, and clearly had a bone to pick with overzealous protesting youth, so carry on.

If that counts as incorrect outright, then consider editing your initial post:

1562 is the total of the all races. The actual number of black people that died is 156

since that's misinformation. Again, I assumed you weren't making up/misinterpreting info with your posts, and I was genuinely interested in what your point was.

Now that your point is more clear: consider avoiding propping up prison statistics in lieu of data of people killed by police when you don't have it

And consider that the UK Black Lives Matter movement isn't just an imitation of the US Black Lives Matter movement, meaning it isn't solely about killings by police. Not that understanding that would change your mind overall, but it'd be a start. Cheers.

Civil rights is pretty inconvenient for a lot of people one way or another. I don't get why people mention this constantly, like you weren't even personally inconvenienced so why do you care? And even if you were, what's one day when we're talking about the course of human history? It comes across as the most hollow, selfish rhetoric and is basically dancing around the fact you probably don't like the movement at its core and are just using traffic as an excuse to downplay it.

It's hard not to see those comments that way — thinly veiled dearth of humanity and empathy, and some are proud of that somehow.

 

[EGM1966]

This isn't true.

The EHRC did the most comprehensive study of its kind last year and white males from poor backgrounds were the ones being left behind in school and in seeking education or work post high school.


White boys and girls fell behind every other ethnic group in the study.

Of course this was younger people, the issues are likely different for adults.

I was taking specifically to ethnic minorities and the query of whether the bigger issue is restrictive racism (as in being denied opportunity based on colour) or other social factors (I believe it's the latter).

You are quite right however and I believe this further confirms my point: poverty and social restrictions that emerge from that are the more restrictive issue now in UK.

So just to be clear I wasn't saying ethnic minorities were worst affected in this area just noting it's impact on them vs deliberate racism. But I did omit disadvantaged white performance in the process which I perhaps have shouldn't.

It's hard covering all angles when dealing with race/poverty issues and how they interact.

Key point IMHO is the most important thing is to put structures in place to prevent the lockout it causes when groups of people get caught in this particular cul de sac.

I'd rather see protests about that as in UK that's where the real divide lies IMHO.

 

[DrunkShogun]

Black lives matter had a valid argument to make but the way they've handled it from the start has appeared immature and lost any integrity. This is simply a nuisance and does nothing to achieve what they claim.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

No and it may be better that way. Racial politics stalled a tad as a result of that image of MLK as the golden leader, and his assassination being a Christ like sacrifice that eliminated racism forever.

BLM I feel is more adaptable for our time.

It could be argued that his martyrdom was used as a way of mollifying people. Which is a shame.

King's figurehead status is now being used as a another avenue of discrediting this current movement when people "lament" how there's no "singular standard bearer" as if that's what's most important.

There are a few standout people though, like DeRay Mckesson. Not that there needs to be.

Black lives matter had a valid argument to make but the way they've handled it from the start has appeared immature and lost any integrity. This is simply a nuisance and does nothing to achieve what they claim.

That you heard about this protest proves otherwise.

That others can now see there are people who place more importance on ease of travel over struggles faced by certain groups for years on end also proves otherwise.

 

[Amon37]

Civil rights is pretty inconvenient for a lot of people one way or another. I don't get why people mention this constantly, like you weren't even personally inconvenienced so why do you care? And even if you were, what's one day when we're talking about the course of human history? It comes across as the most hollow, selfish rhetoric and is basically dancing around the fact you probably don't like the movement at its core and are just using traffic as an excuse to downplay it.

Why can't I be empathetic AND not want to deal with people chaining themselves to the road?

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Why can't I be empathetic AND not want to deal with people chaining themselves to the road?

You can be, it's just extremely suspect when someone's first/only response is "they shouldn't be inconveniencing others"

It's almost as if that person is blind (willfully or otherwise) to why that person is chaining themselves to a road.

 

[gerg]

That you heard about this protest proves otherwise.

As I'm curious about this rallying behind "disruption" as a tactical form of protest, would, say, the assassination of the Queen (to use a similarly British example) be considered a justifiable action given undoubtedly the great degree of notice it would give the Black Lives Matter movement?

 

[Mecha]

Why can't I be empathetic AND not want to deal with people chaining themselves to the road?

If having to deal with some inconvenience is as far as your empathy goes then you must not have much of it.

As I'm curious about this rallying behind "disruption" as a tactical form of protest, would, say, the assassination of the Queen (to use a similarly British example) be considered a justifiable action given undoubtedly the great degree of notice it would give the Black Lives Matter movement?

Violent disruption =/= non-violent disruption

 

[MilkyJoe]

but I thought you were "moving on."

They mention the total number of killings since 1993 without saying "of black people," seemingly as a way of framing what's to come in the video. Tangential, but not incorrect. You saw it that way though, and clearly had a bone to pick with overzealous protesting youth, so carry on.

If that counts as incorrect outright, then consider editing your initial post:



since that's misinformation. Again, I assumed you weren't making up/misinterpreting info with your posts, and I was genuinely interested in what your point was.

Now that your point is more clear: consider avoiding propping up prison statistics in lieu of data of people killed by police when you don't have it

And consider that the UK Black Lives Matter movement isn't just an imitation of the US Black Lives Matter movement, meaning it isn't solely about killings by police. Not that understanding that would change your mind overall, but it'd be a start. Cheers.

The numbers were stated in a video called black lives matter. The message is clear.

OK post edited. I was stating what was posted on twitter before you asked me to elaborate. I'm not sure how that makes he post any less valid by reducing the numbers.



I have not mentioned anywhere that UK black lives matter is an imitation of the US version.

But since you put it; Not understanding that will change my mind on what exactly?

 

[joetachi]

Slacktivism has become so rampant that seeing people actually fighting for something in the real world shocks them. "Why cant they protest somewhere i dont see or hear them "

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Why can't I be empathetic AND not want to deal with people chaining themselves to the road?

Empathy would be seeing them and knowing they're humans like you who'd rather be doing something fun with their time, but they can't because, you know, pervasive and oppressive racism. You can help everyone be free, and we'd never see another protest about this again.

 

[EGM1966]

Why can't I be empathetic AND not want to deal with people chaining themselves to the road?

You can. This thread has both extremes going: those who deny any problem and those who think the problem requires such protest with any disruption automatically excused.

Myself I feel both extremes are doing UK a disservice. It's not perfect and racism exists but I believe we're at a place and time to handle it more constructively than such protests achieve.

That said in the wake of some people's reaction to Brexit perhaps the marches do serve as a timely reminder of these issues.

The chaining up of people on roads I remain of the view is a mistake and unnecessary.

 

[gerg]

Violent disruption =/= non-violent disruption

Spring-Loaded suggested that the fact that people heard of this protest justified its existence, which I (perhaps mistakenly) took to mean that a movement's success can be decided, in part, of the awareness it creates. The assassination of the Queen would undoubtedly be heard of by a lot of people!

I suppose I seek to interrogate the difference, if there is one, between "awareness caused" and "change affected".

Given the focus on disruption as a quality to protests, a direct parallel would seem to be strikes undertaken by trade unions, such as those held by the RMT in London recently (regarding the implementation of a night Tube service). There, also, people dismissed the strikes for causing "unnecessary" disruption to many (hundreds of) thousands of people.

 

[Mecha]

Slacktivism has become so rampant that seeing people actually fighting for something in the real world shocks them. "Why cant they protest somewhere i dont see or hear them "

Governments should just make sound proof buildings that protesters can enter so they can let off some steam without having to disrupt our day to day lives.

Spring-Loaded suggested that the fact that people heard of this protest justified its existence. The assassination of the Queen would undoubtedly be heard of by a lot of people!

An assassination is fundamentally different from temporally blocking a highway. The style of tactics and reactions that it would receive are entirely different. People here aren't saying BLM should become a rebel group that blows up police stations, but they have every right to protest in a way that might inconvenience people.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

As I'm curious about this rallying behind "disruption" as a tactical form of protest, would, say, the assassination of the Queen (to use a similarly British example) be considered a justifiable action given undoubtedly the great degree of notice it would give the Black Lives Matter movement?

Even ignoring the difference in extremity, how is blocking traffic and killing someone comparable in a reasonable sense?

Non-violent protest is inconvenient for people at most. Murder goes beyond inconvenience.

When it does come to violent protest, however, I can't admonish the protest itself without acknowledging what brought about that violence. I can't just say "Oh, those people shouldn't have beaten/killed Gaddafi like that," and leave it at that. Does that answer your question satisfactorily?

Spring-Loaded suggested that the fact that people heard of this protest justified its existence, which I (perhaps mistakenly) took to mean that a movement's success can be decided, in part, of the awareness it creates. The assassination of the Queen would undoubtedly be heard of by a lot of people!

I suppose I seek to interrogate the difference, if there is one, between "awareness caused" and "change affected".

Given the focus on disruption as a quality to protests, a direct parallel would seem to be strikes undertaken by trade unions, such as those held by the RMT in London recently (regarding the implementation of a night Tube service). There, also, people dismissed the strikes for causing "unnecessary" disruption to many (hundreds of) thousands of people.

You'd have to be completely oblivious to some fundamental aspects of life (or merely making an argument in a vacuum) to come to the bolded statement as if that is the only metric for measuring a protest's success.

 

[DedValve]

Why can't I be empathetic AND not want to deal with people chaining themselves to the road?

Have you personally been inconvenienced by them? Where you going out today and its not possible because of BLM? Have you, you personally been unable to perform your day to day life because of BLM?

Because if so, thats not even a fraction of how black people can live their daily lives in this extremely oppressive and racist world. And if not, then why do you care what BLM does?

EDIT: Its a lose/lose with BLM. They do peaceful protests and people get inconvenienced. When the riots happen people say "why not just do peaceful protests to be heard?".

 

[Oppo]

Another BLM thread, more people assuming for some moronic reason that BLM is out to make friends, like making friends with do-nothing motherfuckers would ever get them anything.

If it is not about empathy or solidarity why are you talking about supporting their fight? No-one is going to support the fight of people who fuck up your plans that you have spent considerable time and money on, that is not how most humans work. It's not like being half an hour late for work, it's a bloody international flight. Seems the people cheering this on have never left their country before.

I support BLM protests but I do think this particular method is deeply flawed.

it's essentially a PR exercise. there has to be a way to get broad news coverage without fucking people over. I say this not out of misplaced sympathy for people with tickets but rather because I feel the movement would benefit from tactics that do not simultaneously raise awareness AND create new enemies (wrongly). more flies with honey than vinegar, etc. however I readily admit I am no expert in such tactics. but I do know that you can get coverage without screwing up a highway or airport. or at the very least, target something closer to the message. for example, if the chief of police is flying in, block that motorcade or gate.

there is this undercurrent of "somebody needs to get fucked over, so they can get a taste" that doesn't really do them any favours long term, I feel.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I support BLM protests but I do think this particular method is deeply flawed.

it's essentially a PR exercise. there has to be a way to get broad news coverage without fucking people over. I say this not out of misplaced sympathy for people with tickets but rather because I feel the movement would benefit from tactics that do not simultaneously raise awareness AND create new enemies (wrongly). more flies with honey than vinegar, etc. however I readily admit I am no expert in such tactics. but I do know that you can get coverage without screwing up a highway or airport. or at the very least, target something closer to the message. for example, if the chief of police is flying in, block that motorcade or gate.

The media coverage isn't the end goal. If they're thinking like MLK, they want to disrupt the social order until it's so uncomfortable and inconvenient for people that they're forced to act on the issues instead of doing nothing like usual.

 

[joetachi]

if people want to mention MLK so much why dont they mentions sit ins. Its almost like MLK is brought out to shame black people without prior Knowledge of what he actually did.

 

[Ovek]

Doesn't matter. The police in the UK are still incredibly racist, regardless of whether they have guns or not. If they did have guns, you'd sure as shit see a tonne of shootings like you do in the US.

Hyperbolic nonsense, tonnes of cops carry guns now in many cases in high pressure situations shit we now have them in teams roaming London on bikes wearing full tactical body armour and they don't shoot every black person they think is a criminal they see.

 

[Oppo]

The media coverage isn't the end goal. If they're thinking like MLK, they want to disrupt the social order until it's so uncomfortable and inconvenient for people that they're forced to act on the issues instead of doing nothing like usual.

sure. though, I think of it like small protest stepping stones leading up to a massive protest that demands political action. you need multiple PR victories leading up to that big March, and you want people on your side, as many as humanly possible.

 

[Squalor]

if people want to mention MLK so much why dont they mentions sit ins. Its almost like MLK is brought out to shame black people without prior Knowledge of what he actually did.

No one knows what he actually did because school systems have sterilized his image.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

sure. though, I think of it like small protest stepping stones leading up to a massive protest that demands political action. you need multiple PR victories leading up to that big March, and you want people on your side, as many as humanly possible.

If people aren't already on the side of equal rights for everyone, they never will be. It's not BLM's job to get the public to care about their humanity. The public needs to check themselves then get involved in whatever ways they can that aren't just doing nothing at all.

 

[PopeReal]

Black lives matter had a valid argument to make but the way they've handled it from the start has appeared immature and lost any integrity. This is simply a nuisance and does nothing to achieve what they claim.

They "had" one?

Did they lose it?

LOL these threads are full of the dumbest fucking shit.

 

[gerg]

You'd have to be completely oblivious to some fundamental aspects of life (or merely making an argument in a vacuum) to come to the bolded statement as if that is the only metric for measuring a protest's success.

On the contrary, I think the disruption a protest causes should be measured against the changes it affects. I think that the argument that a protest is successful because people have heard about it isn't sufficient.

 

[Abounder]

BLM is more like MLK's Poor People's Campaign, in the sense that the average person puts the 1963 Washington march on a pedestal by comparison. Blocking traffic gets headlines, let's see what leadership does with it.

 

[Oppo]

If people aren't already on the side of equal rights for everyone, they never will be. It's not BLM's job to get the public to care about their humanity. The public needs to check themselves then get involved in whatever ways they can that aren't just doing nothing at all.

I disagree. you could easily have people who profess to care about Black Lives but decide that BLM is counterproductive. the same way you can have people who care about the environment but hate Greenpeace. because tactics count for a lot.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I disagree. you could easily have people who profess to care about Black Lives but decide that BLM is counterproductive. the same way you can have people who care about the environment but hate Greenpeace. because tactics count for a lot.

If they care about black lives, they will do something, anything, ever.

I see no evidence of that by any complainers. I haven't read a single story of someone being like "yeah I didn't care for BLM, so I did this instead." They just do nothing.

 

[Mael]

My 1rst reaction was ; the fuck are they doing in a UK airport? Aren't they a US organisation?
And now I know better!
I guess they didn't do this in vain.

Nope. I don't know of anyone in the UK that holds that view. Racism remains a real problem in the UK and it's only going to get solved by generations of folks learning to live with each other in a loving, fair and tolerant society.

Bullshit.
You have people who lived in the UK for close to 40 years getting harrassed because they're fucking German after the whole Brexit.
Germany and Britain go waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back, like I'll let you hazard a guess where the saxons of anglo-saxons come from.
Heck the current lineage of the Queen is tied with Germany even!
If Germans aren't safe from persecution you're deluding yourself.

 

[Lime]

Are you going to take part in the Black Lives Matter protests? http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...aking-part-in-the-black-lives-matter-protests

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Why can't I be empathetic AND not want to deal with people chaining themselves to the road?

Why can't people be minorities and not face racism and discrimination every day?

 

[Oppo]

If they care about black lives, they will do something, anything, ever.

I see no evidence of that by any complainers. I haven't read a single story of someone being like "yeah I didn't care for BLM, so I did this instead." They just do nothing.

well, that's anecdotal, but I see your point. probably a common pattern.

 

[TM94]

Absolute morons.

Good way to lose public support for your movement.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Absolute morons.

Good way to lose public support for your movement.

Can you qualify how that "public support" has been helping?

Can you link us to a place where BLM has told us that public support is their goal?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...history-of-resisting-civil-rights-protesters/

 

[War Peaceman]

Our current PM has been very aggressive towards overcoming corruption within the police and put heavy limitations on the racist stop and search policies.

We actually have a very good person in charge in this particular case.

Obviously there is more to racism (and in Britain, the racial situation is massively different to the USA) than just policing policies!

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Our current PM has been very aggressive towards overcoming corruption within the police and put heavy limitations on the racist stop and search policies.

We actually have a very good person in charge in this particular case.

Obviously there is more to racism (and in Britain, the racial situation is massively different to the USA) than just policing policies!

https://twitter.com/ukblm/status/760792422746128386

Is this about our posts or BLM? Their video explains their position.