ryutaro's mama
Member
Measley said:
Could've fooled me.
Black males most consistently under-performing demographic. What can be done?
- Thread starter ScOULaris
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Could've fooled me.
Definitely. Just thinking out loud on that one. I make the following assumptions:Blackace said:
1. It is usually the mother left with the kids
2. The mother will seek out the best opportunities for herself such that she can provide for her children
It's definitely a stretch to assume that most of these single mothers do the best with what they've got, but it's something I'd like to believe.
theignoramus
Member
so why was the OP banned?
Blackace said:
http://newsone.com/nation/newsonestaff3/children-single-parents-u-s-american/
However, even if the stat is off, that doesn't disprove the fact that the statistic is WORSE than it was in the 1960s.
Hell, between 1870 and 1940, blacks had higher rates of marriage than whites did.
Mammoth Jones
Member
Measley said:
Why is there this disproportionate focus on being wed for black people? Do you believe all people that have children should be married? Because as we've entered the 21st century, there are plenty of people having kids yet don't care to get married. Out of wedlock births are up across the board.
Dare I say: Wedlock is irrelevant. Having two active parents in their child's life with the financial means to support said child is what counts.
If you're going to throw stats around....get the whole picture.
"In 1970 the rate for unmarried black women, 96 per 1,000, was nearly 7 times the rate for unmarried white women, 14. By 1998 this differential was just under 2; the rate for black women fell to 73 whereas the rate for white women rose to 38 per l,000."
dinazimmerman
Incurious Bastard
Opiate said:
Sure, there are other social forces at work here. The point of Heckman's research is not to suggest otherwise. However, his point is -- and he emphasizes this in the article -- that the skill gap caused by bad parenting is the most important factor behind the racial disparities we observe today, more important than whatever is causing black males to underperform relative to black females, which is probably labor market discrimination specifically against black males (black males are "intimidating," while females aren't, or black males just have a worse reputation than black females). And by the way, black females still earn, on average, 17% less than white females, so there is still a white-black skill gap among females.
A small aside: There are no "Chicago" or "freshwater" schools of economics. These are meaningless constructs created by ideologues like Krugman who want to pigeon-hole people as bad guys. Lucas is a great economist whose credibility has diminished only in the eyes of the ideological or ignorant. At any rate, Heckman's research interests are not similar to Lucas's.
Wedlock is relevant for a bunch of legal reasons alone. It's true that one can be a successful parent without marriage though.Mammoth Jones said:
However, I don't think anyone is disputing the two parent household as much as it's that many out of wedlock kids in the black community are not in two parent households. This problem is increased when the single mom has more than one kid and possibly amongst different fathers. Add to that poverty and it's a big problem.
From articles posted before, it seems that black women have a hard time getting any man, so it stands to reason that many of these out of wedlock children are indeed being raised by only one person (Or at least without the fathers).
Mammoth Jones said:
No, I'm saying that the high rate of black children being born to single parent households has caused the general breakdown of the black community. I also believe that this leads to other issues like crime, academic problems, employment, and the inability to establish healthy relationships.
BTW, we are only focusing on black people because their rate is far higher than any other group in the country.
Blackace said:
I think they just blamed it on black people influencing other races to imitate them. A user yesterday blamed white teenage pregnancy on black women.
Measley said:
I'm looking for actual test results. I also would like to see if they testing other reasons as to why the child was doing poorly. Like checked to see if they had mental issues, was abused, had a disability, etc.
samus i am
Member
Londa said:
I think this is a big key in answering the "What can be done?" question. The most popular black leaders were assassinated. All we have left are people that aren't taken as seriously (Farrakhan, Jackson, Sharpton). I love Cornell West, but his anti-Obama rhetoric is hurting his credibility. And Obama is not, and never tried to be, a black leader.
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Londa said:
The one thing it could lead to is poverty and those could lead to some of those issues... But again being raised by a single parent isn't some black only issue and if you want to link crime to single parenting then how come the number of blacks in jail vs whites is sooo disproportioned?
marathonfool
Member
Measley is arguing against the legacy of racism/slavery in America? You really have to start from a willfully ignorant position to continue to insist on a untenable perspective.
Heck it's harder to even be around the kid especially if the single parent is working. A single mom who is working is forced to be more trusting of their child. If there's no time to even be with the kid, how much time could possibly be spent training the kid how to be a man?GamerSoul said:
Single moms have it tough. I definitely don'y envy them.
That word is so depressing for some reason. I can't imagine how self-esteem could be affected if you are always wondering about half of your family tree.
Blackace said:
I honestly don't think it's up for debate at all. Thinking that celebrated music icons preaching sex, drugs, and money has no impact on a person (especially youth) is just ignorant (and I don't mean this in a disrespectful way).
We're not talking about adults, that is HARDLY where the problem is (well, partly). The problem is with children, rather, what they absorb as they grow older. If their parents show little ambition or value for education, then listening to hip hop (a few artists in particular) really solidifies those values and beliefs.
The best thing I have to go off of is my own "life story". I'm white, but won't deny that urban culture heavily influenced my life until the age of 21(ish). I grew up with a black stepfather (who I love to death) but his values didn't reflect my mothers (or my own at present time). His behavior and the music I was surrounded with greatly influenced what I did, from smoking weed to shop lifting, and almost failing out of high school. Granted I never dealt drugs or stole cars, but I wasn't an angel among the other military families.
I absorbed those same values and thought education wasn't going to be necessary to my success. That all happened over the span of more than a decade and a half.
Denying the impact of a celebrity, especially when it's something as repetitious as a song heard multiple times daily, and the parents that don't correct those values, or make a clear distinction between the two, is a little "forgiving" to say the least. You absolutely HAVE to shoulder the blame on both the parents and the music (and TV, and video games, etc).
This isn't any different from rock music, etc. It breeds a foundation for kids that absolutely will identify themselves with that life style if they have trouble elsewhere.
...sorry for the rant. I just strongly believe that music is definitely partly to blame. Especially when you've got ignorant kids and adults preaching one thing on a microphone, and then complaining about "the man" or "society" (rap or rock). Best I can say is grow the fuck up to those folks, figure it out.
And no, giving money to a community does not negate your negative influence on your fans, IMO. (Just getting that out of the way before someone talks about a musician donating to charity or some other silly bull).
Edit: And to be clear, I don't mean "blame" like "all of this should be outlawed or changed". I mean parents should do a better job regulating what their kids consume, and solidifying better values. I'm just illustrating that music and other media clearly has an impact and is definitely responsible for some of the values of people today, be they black, white, hispanic, etc.
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
MrPliskin said:
Actually it is up for debate. If a parent allows HBO or Showtimes dramas to raise their kids then maybe we get a Dexter on our hands... But if parents are raising their kids most kids should know that music is just music..
Blackace said:
I never did. What I've said repeatedly is that the black rate is much higher than the rate of any other group. Also what's interesting is that gross median income rates directly correlate with the rates of the groups with the highest/lowest illegitimacy rates. Those with the lowest rates had the highest median income, while those with the highest had the lowest median income.
dinazimmerman
Incurious Bastard
I really don't think the influence of popular music explains much. Kids with a good upbringing listen to gangsta rap but never end up looking up to gangsta rappers as role models.
samus i am
Member
Goya said:
Exactly. You know who's actually buying all those ganster rap CDs? Suburban kids. There are other things at play but I don't think it's the music.
Blackace said:
I grew up between sisters so I listened to Britney, Christina and all the Boy bands you could think of. Later around 9-10 I was exposed more to rap and I loved it. Tupac, Biggie, even Cash Money, Ludacris, MTV etc. But I didn't once believe for me that it related to me on a personal level because it I didn't see those things that they rapped about. The reality is that people actually really go through those things and relate to it so it amplifies the effect of the music making the values believable. There is great diversity in rap, so there has to be a reason why a certain group is drawn to a certain type of rap.
Measley just stop! It does not matter how much proof you post. They are not going to read it. The shit has to hit rock bottom, it all has to hit rock bottom. They are not getting it. One of the main problems in my work in the black community I have found is that black people are too damn emotional. They know it is fucked up, they will even ask for help, but when it comes to addressing why it is the way it is all you will get is a whole bunch of shaming tactics and justifications. Black people only want to look at the leaves on a tree, for some reason they never want to look at the root of the tree. If the tree is growing fucked up leaves then maybe the roots are fucked up.
What is the main problem, the black males are fall off. In order to figure out why the boys are falling off we have to go backwards towards the original source of the problems. Black males were once black boys so we need to look at how the boys are being raised. The majority of the boys are born into single parent homes with just mom. How are the mom raising the boys; poorly. How did we come to be in that situation? Where is the father? Lets do a background check on the father.
*terminate program*
It is at this point where the resistance from black women comes into play. Black women know that if they go back too far the blame will fall squarely on them. They made a poor choice in getting with a guy. That guy gets killed or locked because of the sub culture that he subscribes to. That boy now has no father in his life. Another issue is even if the Ray Ray and Pookie were present what would he have to offer his child? Ray Ray and Pookie grew up in a home with no male leadership. Ray Rays and Pookies begat more Ray Rays and Pookies.
The next problem is that the underclass in the black community is out producing the on-point people. This has been going on generationally. What we have now is an imbalance to where the fucked up part of our community poses a serious threat to the very foundation of the community. Ray Rays and Pookies are not the miniority in the community, they have now become the norm. When this happened it changed the core values of the community. Things like standards were lower across the board and shame dissipated. I believe Henry Louis Gates said it best, in order to fix the black community there would first have to be a behavioral revolution. If a black person lives in a community where everyone subscribes to the sub culture then it is easy to understand where they are getting all the positive re-enforcement of their negative behavior. Someone like myself can NOT bring in an outside standard to a community that thinks it is right simply because they are the majority. I would need a critical mass of like minded people to create a cultural shift of that size in order to make any kind of change. Because of this mentorship is NOT the answer. It will not work.
This is the main reason why I place so much blame on the black women. Black people do not control the media, so the promotion and glorification of bullshit is not going to change. Black people do not control businesses or have the networks to help get the majority of the community back on its feet. And even if we did we do not have the educated numbers who would be able to land those jobs. The ONLY thing that can stop or at the very least slow the destruction of the black community is black women picking better men and closing their legs or atleast using condums. The one thing in this world that black people own is their bodies. There is no point in bringing children into this world with no foundation whatsoever. Black women bringing more kids into this world is doing nothing more than keeping the commnity prepetually on the bottom.
And lastly, black women need to accept that bad black males exist. They need to stop trying to hold these guys to the same standard that on-point black men hold themselves to. Ray Rays and Pookies are irresponsible and unaccountable, they create havoc in the community, that is what they do. I will never understand this assumption that these guys are supposed to be good men; THEY ARE NOT THAT! Having a penis does not make a male worthy of leading, being a husband, having children, and being a proper father. The sooner black women realize this the better off they will be. If you got with deviant he is not coming back and chances are you would not even want that type of guy around your children. Being a single mom in the black commuity more times than not is PROOF that the black women made a poor choice in a partner. Simple as that.
EDIT: Let me add this. There is NO solution to the majority of the problems in the black community once it involves having a felony, having a child, or making a number of mistakes. Black people do not have the luxury of any type of cushions like those found in the white community. The ONLY solutions the black community can afford have to be preventative.
What is the main problem, the black males are fall off. In order to figure out why the boys are falling off we have to go backwards towards the original source of the problems. Black males were once black boys so we need to look at how the boys are being raised. The majority of the boys are born into single parent homes with just mom. How are the mom raising the boys; poorly. How did we come to be in that situation? Where is the father? Lets do a background check on the father.
*terminate program*
It is at this point where the resistance from black women comes into play. Black women know that if they go back too far the blame will fall squarely on them. They made a poor choice in getting with a guy. That guy gets killed or locked because of the sub culture that he subscribes to. That boy now has no father in his life. Another issue is even if the Ray Ray and Pookie were present what would he have to offer his child? Ray Ray and Pookie grew up in a home with no male leadership. Ray Rays and Pookies begat more Ray Rays and Pookies.
The next problem is that the underclass in the black community is out producing the on-point people. This has been going on generationally. What we have now is an imbalance to where the fucked up part of our community poses a serious threat to the very foundation of the community. Ray Rays and Pookies are not the miniority in the community, they have now become the norm. When this happened it changed the core values of the community. Things like standards were lower across the board and shame dissipated. I believe Henry Louis Gates said it best, in order to fix the black community there would first have to be a behavioral revolution. If a black person lives in a community where everyone subscribes to the sub culture then it is easy to understand where they are getting all the positive re-enforcement of their negative behavior. Someone like myself can NOT bring in an outside standard to a community that thinks it is right simply because they are the majority. I would need a critical mass of like minded people to create a cultural shift of that size in order to make any kind of change. Because of this mentorship is NOT the answer. It will not work.
This is the main reason why I place so much blame on the black women. Black people do not control the media, so the promotion and glorification of bullshit is not going to change. Black people do not control businesses or have the networks to help get the majority of the community back on its feet. And even if we did we do not have the educated numbers who would be able to land those jobs. The ONLY thing that can stop or at the very least slow the destruction of the black community is black women picking better men and closing their legs or atleast using condums. The one thing in this world that black people own is their bodies. There is no point in bringing children into this world with no foundation whatsoever. Black women bringing more kids into this world is doing nothing more than keeping the commnity prepetually on the bottom.
And lastly, black women need to accept that bad black males exist. They need to stop trying to hold these guys to the same standard that on-point black men hold themselves to. Ray Rays and Pookies are irresponsible and unaccountable, they create havoc in the community, that is what they do. I will never understand this assumption that these guys are supposed to be good men; THEY ARE NOT THAT! Having a penis does not make a male worthy of leading, being a husband, having children, and being a proper father. The sooner black women realize this the better off they will be. If you got with deviant he is not coming back and chances are you would not even want that type of guy around your children. Being a single mom in the black commuity more times than not is PROOF that the black women made a poor choice in a partner. Simple as that.
EDIT: Let me add this. There is NO solution to the majority of the problems in the black community once it involves having a felony, having a child, or making a number of mistakes. Black people do not have the luxury of any type of cushions like those found in the white community. The ONLY solutions the black community can afford have to be preventative.
Goya said:
Very much agreed. I'm not sure I specifically agree with his explanation (it's one possibility out of several I can think of), but the general gist of the argument seems correct to me, and supported by evidence. My goal was -- as already stated -- to emphasize that Heckman's data supports his central hypothesis while also supporting the notion that there are other major factors at work. We seem to agree.
This depends on which column you're talking about in the provided graph. I'm looking at adjusted totals, where black women earn more, not less.
Then you'll have to take this position up with Heckman and the University of Chicago itself. Heckman not only discusses the "Chicago school" in precisely those terms, but suggests that Lucas' work has taken a "major blow." Specifically, Lucas' long term work and belief in rational expectation hypotheses.
http://magazine.uchicago.edu/0910/features/chicago_schooled.shtml
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/johncassidy/2010/01/interview-with-james-heckman.html
I absolutely agree with Heckman that the Chicago School is not a uniform, rigidly defined block. There are differences of opinion and research. But labels are not only applied to groups with rigidly defined and absolutely identical belief systems; many religions, for example, have practitioners who vary widely in their interpretations of the religion, but who nevertheless can still be broadly referred to as "Christians," or "Hindus" in a single, unified block. Thus, I also agree with Heckman that we can generally discuss the central theses of the "Chicago School" with real meaning.
Labels can be used as divisive wedges to discredit or provoke, but they can also be applied as useful descriptors that allow succinct, easily understood discussion. I'm sure Krugman and others rely on the former use, but it's entirely possible to rely on the latter.
Tim Wise speech on The Pathology of White Privilege and institutionalized racism.
one hour but a good listen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Y2mjvFNOwmc#t=438s
one hour but a good listen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Y2mjvFNOwmc#t=438s
Black males most consistently under-performing demographic. What can be done?
So... what CAN be done?
My opinion:
First want to start with the home, and communities. Men being there for boys in a positive way has to be broadcasted as socially cool, and important. Black men being fathers, black men being brothers, black men being teachers, black men being community leaders. In the end, black men carrying and handling responsibilities.
There needs to be a renaissance in black parenting. There's no one perfect way to be a parent, but there are folks who are becoming parents who either didn't want to, or have a bad foundation to start from. They need education, and there should be clear and relatively easy access to basic parenting materials, to help new parents get started. How to deal with stressful situations. How to prepare for the unknown, and how to plan out parenthood for the child.
Third, quality education is paramount. I still feel that elementary and high school teachers are criminally underpaid, and schools are understaffed. Whether that means school reform or not, is another set of politics, but young boys need to be able to be in relatively small classes so they can get focused attention from teachers if need be.
Fourth, and this sort of leads back to the first point: Inspiration. There needs to be a goal that young black kids want to aspire to. Know that while sports and music are fine, there's other careers in politics, science, and medical and business that they can excel and be successful in. Show the youth that there have already been black pioneers in those fields, so it IS possible for them to be leaders in those professions.
So... what CAN be done?
My opinion:
First want to start with the home, and communities. Men being there for boys in a positive way has to be broadcasted as socially cool, and important. Black men being fathers, black men being brothers, black men being teachers, black men being community leaders. In the end, black men carrying and handling responsibilities.
There needs to be a renaissance in black parenting. There's no one perfect way to be a parent, but there are folks who are becoming parents who either didn't want to, or have a bad foundation to start from. They need education, and there should be clear and relatively easy access to basic parenting materials, to help new parents get started. How to deal with stressful situations. How to prepare for the unknown, and how to plan out parenthood for the child.
Third, quality education is paramount. I still feel that elementary and high school teachers are criminally underpaid, and schools are understaffed. Whether that means school reform or not, is another set of politics, but young boys need to be able to be in relatively small classes so they can get focused attention from teachers if need be.
Fourth, and this sort of leads back to the first point: Inspiration. There needs to be a goal that young black kids want to aspire to. Know that while sports and music are fine, there's other careers in politics, science, and medical and business that they can excel and be successful in. Show the youth that there have already been black pioneers in those fields, so it IS possible for them to be leaders in those professions.
I'm sorry, but I feel your opinion is extremely sexist. You highlight what you believe to be the problems are with black men but then gloss over that to blame black women for the failures of the father. No, it has nothing to do with holding the men accountable. It's the fault of woman for choosing the men.
Your opinion also doesn't consider what other people in this thread have pointed out: just because the father isn't in the home doesn't mean he isn't a part of his children's lives.
While I generally agree with you that people in general need to be smarter when it comes to sex and having children, I don't believe the solution is demonizing black women. If anything, single mothers need more support.
OG_Original Gamer
Member
Here's some history on me and my family, particularly mothers side of my genetic make up. My great grandfather is from Little Rock, Arkansas. His level of education went only as high as elementary school, not by his choice, but because he had to work. Now, my grandfather has a junior highschool education, because he had to work on a farm. During the 60's they moved the family to Los Angeles, CA. This move was in hopes of a better life his children and grandchildren so on and so forth.Fastforward to the 70's, you get the Black Panther Party, Watts Civil Unrest. When I was kid, I thought all white people were rich. In my neighborhood the only time you saw white people, was at school or when the police drove by or chasing some one down the street. I had this negative perception of being black ment you had to be poor. There weren't doctors, lawyers, architects liviningin my neighborhood, no one that I knew as a child had a college degree. For a long time, I didn't think anyone lived on the other side of downtown L.A. Eating government cheese, miracle whip sandwiches, not having enough money for a bag sugar or a loaf of bread. I experienced racism for the time as a teenager while in Habor City,CA. A kid, while my brother, cousins and I were sitting in my aunts pinto. A 13 year old white kid on a bike approached the car and asked us what we were doing in his neighborhood, while someone else in the neighborhood called the police because four kids were terrorize there neighborhood, rape there daughters, loot hey're homes and put graffiti on they're front doors. All of this while my mother and aunt talk to this lady about them buying and selling Tiara Crystal.
Despite all the things I've seen, experienced, because of my mother and the fact that my father didn't cut and run. I've made better decision, my cousins and friends unfortunately didn't have there father around in any manner.
Despite all the things I've seen, experienced, because of my mother and the fact that my father didn't cut and run. I've made better decision, my cousins and friends unfortunately didn't have there father around in any manner.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Shiggie said:
Yeah, Tim has a speech where he opens and draws a direct correlation to how he was in a position to become, well, himself through previous generations of "white privilege".
It was very fascinating.
Oh, here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UJlNRODZHA
Blackace said:
Partially due to police specifically targeting black neighborhoods due to the drug war and partially because the number of broke single parents that are black vs white are also disproportional.
http://www.quebecoislibre.org/000610-9.htm
According to the site above, the vast majority of the white inmates and the vast majority of black immates as well as ones of all other races share the trait of coming from a broken home.
If you believe in conspiracy theories. Then there is one out there with the idea that after the civil rights movement there was a specific agenda to attack the black family on all fronts though pushing welfare reform that increased aid to women as long as a father wasn't around thus giving an incentive to have more children without a father around. Using the media to further promote the idea as well as assassination all credible black male leaders in the country that could provide positive rolemodels for black males and using the media to promote negative black male role models and cultural ideas.
The idea being that you don't need to worry about blacks trying to rise up if they keep themselves down due to be trapped in a toxic and defective culture.
You want to name off all the exceptions in the black commuity? Go right ahead. The exceptions are not going to fix the black community. This is the second time you have tried to make the exceptions swallow the rule.royalan said:
More positive re-enforcement of negative behavior? Yeah that is exactly what the black community needs. Like I said the shame in the black community has dissipated.
SSJ1Goku said:
1) Wasn't specifically talking about the black community here. As has been mentioned before in this thread, single-parent households are becoming increasingly common across the board. I know that this thread is primarily focused on the factors that contribute to these things being prevalent in the black community, but context is important.
2) And I don't particularly see you anyone else pulling out stats that demonstrate that the vast amount of kids who are growing up in single-parent households are doing so without any shred of contact or support from their fathers. If I can't use the exceptions to swallow the rule, you can't use the rule to disregard the factors that lead to there even being exceptions.
It's not about reinforcing negative behavior. We're not talking about dogs here. People may end up in less than fortuitous circumstances as the result of bad choices, but there should still be support and incentives to improve. Especially if the ultimate goal is improving the chances of a better life for the children.
Honestly, you sound like those people who believe we shouldn't educate teens on safe sex out of the belief that'll it'll make them more promiscuous. But that's another topic.
Did you even read my damn post? I not talking about other communities! The black community is fucked up, I don't give a fuck about other communities. You are using a Nirvana fallacy to argue some kind of point that I never made.
I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about now. It is like you only comprehended select parts of my post. In order to stop negative behavior there has to be disincentives. That bullshit you wrote about safe sex is the complete opposite of what I said!
*facepalm at own spelling mistakes*
I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about now. It is like you only comprehended select parts of my post. In order to stop negative behavior there has to be disincentives. That bullshit you wrote about safe sex is the complete opposite of what I said!
*facepalm at own spelling mistakes*
Technically, the context is that black families are still a couple of generation ahead of the trend, so that would have to be factored into it. We have no idea how the overall trend of everyone getting in the single parent mix will do yet, but it's a little unrealistic to suggest that single moms have nothing to do with the black community's plight or that they face the same issues other races face when rearing children.royalan said:
Visitation is better than no contact for sure. It's not the same thing as a kid seeing his parents express love and respect for each other. Child rearing is full time, and although being a part time dad is better than nothing, it's still not optimum which is what's needed for your kid to come out OK by long lasting societal norms.royalan said:
The underperformance of the black man should prove that unless we're saying that under performance isn't really happening to begin with. The reason aren't invisible and they are not just slavery.
- Status