Nappuccino
Member
You just made me remember the no1 reason why Deckard isn't a replicant.
They wouldn't let him retire and walk around free- replicants are illegal on earth. They would have just killed him and got a new Deckard.
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Blade Runner: 30 Years Later
- Thread starter PhoncipleBone
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You just made me remember the no1 reason why Deckard isn't a replicant.
They wouldn't let him retire and walk around free- replicants are illegal on earth. They would have just killed him and got a new Deckard.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
Unless he was a replicant built to take out other replicants, and everyone was just playing along with his implanted memories of having a past.
Nappuccino
Member
But they wouldn't have let him retire, he would have been programed to keep doing his job until his programmed death-date. Why create someone to do the job who has a per-determined death date and then have the oversight to not program him to work through it till the end?
And if he wanted to retire anyway, they would have "retired" him because he'd have been a rogue replicant.
Was just about to post this.
I mean, what if he was created solely for this job? They implant the memories and know-how of a top-tier Blade Runner into his head, make him think he's retired then release him onto the streets. Gaff knew exactly where to find him at the noodle stand, after all. Nobody but Gaff and the police chief have any prior knowledge about him in the film.
I mean, the replicants are super-human strong and at least as intelligent as an average human. Why risk lives when you can purpose build a replicant to hunt replicants? Again, the system, the system, the system.
Nappuccino
Member
And they let him retire form the system. They would not do that. It makes no sense to custom build something to your needs and then let it walk right out the door. Have him work his entire time out on the force. It is the best way to get your money's worth.
No, read what I said again. He never retired. They made him, implanted memories to think he was a recently retired Blade Runner, then set him off onto the streets. Gaff then picks him up. When the film begins, he could be only hours old.
Nappuccino
Member
I missed that part.
But still, why would they let him roam free, even for that short of a time? That is just reckless and stupid. Make him think he's been working for the last 15 years and is at the peak of his job. He'll show up to work, no convincing needed, and put all his effort into the job. Because that's what he's programmed to do.
The idea of it having that extra noir layer to it works in theory. In reality it sounds like Ford was hung over and completely disinterested in what he's saying, half of which I believe is true. It's been a while since I've seen the theatrical cut of the film, but it also more or less leaves no doubt at all to his humanity at the end does it not? As much as [Scott] would prefer we all see him as another replicant, at least the film in it's DC/FC forms leaves it somewhat ambiguous and we get to make up our own minds.
Just like Sam in Moon.
Deckard could have Gaff's memories implanted, just for the job.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
Yet, why keep Rachel free as well? Perhaps she and him were Nexus 7. Remember, she did not know she was a replicant because of the memories. He could be the same.
It is so cool to think that 30 years later discussions are still going on.
Because he's programmed. Why did Gaff know what noodle bar in a city the size of a small nation Deckard would be at?
Or, even failing that, it's not like he'd just go psycho. He was unaware of his being a replicant and believed he was enjoying a well-earned retirement. I mean, he spends nearly all the film roaming "free" (when in reality he is under constant surveillance) as it is anyway, what's a couple of hours in the streets without official Blade Runner status?
Nappuccino
Member
She was the leader of that company's pet project. Likely, no one besides him knew she was on earth.
That or he probably has the proper paperwork to allow a few here for research purposes or something along those lines.
Some random police department likely wouldn't get that kind of clearance. The future version of the FBI? Yeah, I could see that.
Nappuccino
Member
Because Gaff is good at his job?
I'd imagine that a large part of it is finding people- most who don't want to be found.
But they're not a random police department. They are very specifically the Blade Runner unit. Authorisation for use of false-memory replicants in the (supposedly) extremely dangerous event of a replicant reaching earth doesn't seem like too giant a leap.
But he knew where Deckard lived, so he could have just gone to his apartment. This particular "but what if/but no because" game could go on for a loooong time. All I'm saying is, when you have a system of artificial people with implanted memories killing other artificial people, him being apparently retired isn't exactly a good argument for him being human. At least, not by itself.
Nappuccino
Member
I guess, in theory, you could be right depending on the level of programming they really could do to the replicants. But Deckard as a whole just doesn't add up to be a replicant for me. It seems odd that he gets bested (more or less) by all of the replicants he hunts in the movie. Even the "pleasure model"- He has to shoot her in the back after she damn near chokes him out. Deckard's physicality just isn't on the same level as the models he has to fight in the movie.
If implanting memories is a new technology (which, in my recollection of the movie, it is), you'd think they'd have given him the capabilities of the newest models too- especially if he was made to hunt them down.
These are both strawman arguments as there is no way of knowing what happens before Gaff picks him up that go either way. Gaff being a good Blade Runner versed in street language is just as valid as Gaff knows he's there ahead of time because Deckard is a replicant.
But then he'd realise he wasn't human. He 100% believes he is human until the ending shot. He can't do feats of strength else the illusion wouldn't work.
However, he is "the best" Blade Runner, so maybe he is just slightly better than a human. But you have to realise, the replicants are just thought of as disposable humans. They are work mules, except even lower because mules at least are real living things, which people don't consider replicants to be.
Deckard is simply a disposable detective, like Roy is a disposable soldier and Leon a disposable factory worker and Priss a disposable lover etc.
Nappuccino
Member
If his memories of his abilities of strength are there, why would he think that would be odd? Give him memories that work within the realm of his abilities and he wouldn't question them because that is what he "knows" he can do.
plus, I know replicants are disposable- that is the basis for my "he wouldn't be allowed to retire" theory, assuming he actually was a blade runner before the film started.
Also, you'd think that, with these fugitives being a top priority, they wouldn't want to just send a disposable detective (even the best)- they'd want to send someone they know could finish the job. Or they'd send like 30 replicants in to do the job- odds are one would finish it quickly enough.
Program a a killing machine to kill other machines or until it dies in the process - Use an older model, as only the Nexus 6 (we're told) were known for rebelling. Problem solved. If he was a replicant, given the ending, he'd probably be N6. In theory of course.
They did send a human first. Holden. Next to Deckard, we are told, he was considered the best. It didn't go well for him.
Okay this is silly. More likely they'd implant a remote self-destruct device in each replicant's brain to stop them going rogue at all, but then you wouldn't have a movie.
Nope. Blade Runner units have been around much longer than Nexus 6. What makes Nexus 6 unique is their brilliance. Tyrell even supposed for the briefest of moments he might fool a Voigt Kampf test by using Rachel.
As a result, their shorter lifespan was programmed in as a failsafe. Not safe enough, obviously.
Nappuccino
Member
That doesn't explain the use of memories though- I thought that was a Nexus 6 thing only. And the memories were possibly part of the rebellion- once they realized the memories were fake, anyway.
Well, it is easy for it to go bad if you don't check for a gun. That should be Blade Runner 101. That just tells me Holden wasn't actually that good at his job.
Secondly, I was being a bit facetious. Just send in like 2-3 replicants so you'd have some leeway and you wouldn't be scrambling if they replicants got the upper hand on one of yours. You'd have a second so you could at least finish the job before they got away and had to be tracked down again.
Don't you think too much "robot" here. We know Replicants are very complex, more human than human. You couldn't just keep them as killing devices. They'll probably soon start to question their job. And that's what Deckard did.
The only two replicants in the film with fake memories are Deckard and Rachel. None of the target replicants have implanted memories. Both Rachel and Deckard are most likely something other than a Nexus 6, something much more specific given their lack of super-human strength; a custom job. This is quite important because it means it isn't certain if they have a four-year lifespan or not.
Ridley has even mused that they might be Nexus-7's.
I'd agree that he should have checked for a gun, but the film specifically states he Holden is considered good. Deckard's initial objection is "get Holden; he's good".
But again, that wouldn't be a good movie. You deconstruct any fictional tale, even the ones that skew close to reality, and the details are always fudged to tell a better story. There's a point where you just have to stop going "yeah but..!" and just accept. It's like the 80s retro computers in Blade Runner or space travel by 2019 - you ignore it because within the film's logic it works.
Nappuccino
Member
Thing is, I'm breaking down your logic (and kind of Ridley's new logic) of Deckard being a replicant.
My logic of Deckard being human still checks out. If he's a human, he's the only option they really had left, even if he was under equipped physically and, perhaps, mentally.
Also, Deckard only says to try Holden because he doesn't want to be brought back in to the game. Just because he is said to be good, that doesn't make him good.
edit: also that whole no-life span thing was from the narration and isn't really a factor in later versions of the movie. Also, isn't Rachel named as one of the Nexus 6's by the Head of the Department?
My logic of Deckard being human still checks out. If he's a human, he's the only option they really had left, even if he was under equipped physically and, perhaps, mentally.
Also, Deckard only says to try Holden because he doesn't want to be brought back in to the game. Just because he is said to be good, that doesn't make him good.
edit: also that whole no-life span thing was from the narration and isn't really a factor in later versions of the movie. Also, isn't Rachel named as one of the Nexus 6's by the Head of the Department?
But you're not. You're really, honestly not. All you've had is this vague retirement idea, based solely around the notion that it'd be "reckless" to have him as retired. The whole notion of implanted memories can deal with that sticking point effortlessly. I'm actually really confused as to how you keep going back to it.
And it isn't Ridley's 'new' logic either - this was his plan through-out the shoot. Unicorn footage was present and a part of the film before the studio edited it out and forced the happy ending.
What matters is what the film says in the end. Theatrical is definitely ambiguous. It could go either way. But Director's Cut and Final Cut really don't leave much room for debate at all.
I wasn't implying that the hypothetical blade runner units don't span the entire Tyrell product line. I meant that if you were going to program one to kill other replicants, you may not use the model known for rebelling, and instead use an older model or one designed specifically for such a task that doesn't have all the N6 features.
The replicants (regardless of model number for this comment) rebel because they don't like the conditions they're made to work in - non-citizens in fatal/hazardous environments. I see it as the same basis used in the The Second Renaissance (Animatrix). As for memories, outside the hypothetical possibilities of Blade Runners, only Rachel is shown to have implanted memories. Roy finds it sad that he will never get to share his memories, those moments that make him him with anyone else, but it's not why he's mad.Nappuccino said:
Nappuccino
Member
That isn't all I had... I'm a bit confused since I dropped that issue and contended with the poor logic of sending one replicant to take out 5 other ones (not including Rachel).
Ah yeah, I see your point.
Because your other reasons just don't work in a movie sense. You wouldn't send lone soldier John Rambo to infiltrate an enemy camp, or send one man Kyle Reese back in time to stop the Terminator etc. But that's what works for the story. One 'man' against the odds.
But furthermore - if you wouldn't send just one replicant why would you send just one human?
At least if you send a replicant and it fails, you can make a new one and send that in. No loss of life!
Nappuccino
Member
1) Kyle Reese was the only want to get through the portal in time. Also, I guess it's his destiny.
2) Rambo is much more pulpy and the amount of suspension of disbelief it asks is quite a bit higher even though the events are more realistic (as in, they take place in present day and one guy could conceivably do most of those things)
3) apparently Deckard was the only one they had. Humans would be a far more limited resource than disposable replicants.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
The interesting thing is that both you guys are correct in your musings about Deckard. That is the genius of the film. You can draw your own conclusions.
Nappuccino
Member
I was about to point this out, because I am tired, but I didn't want to pull the "yeah, well, I'm right!" card lol.
Not the only, but "the best".
PhoncipleBone
Banned
I wonder if you two and how many others would go back and forth in the Total Recall thread I made last year.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=418088
Was Quaid dreaming or not?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=418088
Was Quaid dreaming or not?
Nappuccino
Member
Or it was his boss trying to kiss ass just to get someone back out there lol.
I never really thought about that one until just now, but I have to admit- that is a rather interesting idea.
I still haven't seen TotalRecall (please don't shoot me)
PhoncipleBone
Banned
Thank you. You remained hiddenin the shadows too long
I like to watch.
I agree, the Int'l cut is the definitive for me.
The narration makes Deckard more sympathetic and also smooths along some of the slower paced sections, especially early on.
Also, narration was in Blade Runner from the very first draft of the screenplay. There's a misconception that it was added at the last minute when actually it was rewritten (and improved).
And it was removed from later drafts. There was back-and-forth through-out production and beyond.
But importantly, the narration that ends up in the film was done by a hack the studio hired at the last minute to re-write the dialogue, not anyone actually tied to the film in any serious way. Ford hated every line and couldn't act it seriously, hence why he sounds bored when he says it. You can listen to the original recordings in Dangerous Days and here him cursing the script between takes.
Nappuccino
Member
I really do need to watch that Docu. Last thing I really heard about it was Harrison himself saying that he tried his best and put in a lot of effort on the line readings (this was years after the fact when it wouldn't matter if he did or not- maybe even just like 5-10 years ago)- I wonder if he's doing some damage control because he feels bad about how it all happened or if he legitimately remembers it different than things like that audio recording would suggest.
He put the effort in. He just couldn't do it. Also, by the end, he'd re-recorded those lines so many times because the studio weren't happy and had the hack re-write it all again. And again.
The guy was literally writing it in the room next to Ford as he was recording it. Ford even approached the guy to give suggestions as to what would fit his character/acting better and got told to go away.
And yes, watch the documentary. It's put together with such care and style. It isn't as comprehensive as Future Noir, but it is much more enjoyable, rather than simply fascinating.
Nappuccino
Member
Wow... I'm amazed they didn't pull that guy off the type writer after the first day. Shame they didn't bring in PKD- I think he could have done a great job with the narration.
But then... I also am really glad that the movie doesn't have it. I much prefer the Directors/Final cuts of the film to what I've heard of the narration. A lot of what would be said is implied... though I suppose a lot of it also could have added context to locations or something along those lines without dragging things down too much.
He was kind of dead by that point so it might have been difficult.
And the reason they didn't fire the guy was because he was a studio stooge. They were in "fix the movie, make as much money as we can from this DISASTER of a film" mode.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
This set, Black Hawk Down, Kingdom of Heaven, and the Alien Anthology set show why Charles de Lauzirika is a god among DVD/Blu producers and why Scott uses him on everything. He was one of the reasons I actually considered buying the Blu Ray of Transformers:Revenge of the Fallen. When this guy is given time and money for a set, it winds up fantastic.
There can be no higher praise!
Nappuccino
Member
He was already dead during the narration stage? He died only a couple months before the film's release. I'm amazed that they were doing huge things like narration that late in the game.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
Really. Anytime I see Charles de Lauzirika or David Prior as the producers on DVD/Blu sets I really consider buying them blindly just for the special features. Almost all the Ridley Scott stuff is done by de Lauzirika, while David Fincher almost always uses David Prior. Prior also did the Pearl Harbor mega set back in the day. Shit movie, incredible special features.
They shot an entire scene that late in the game.
Also, PKD was never tied to the production so getting him in wouldn't have been appropriate. It wasn't his work anymore. And he wasn't exactly the most gifted writer of dialogue ever so he wasn't exactly a good choice.
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