PhoncipleBone
Banned
Dick was paranoid enough. Just imagine having him to come in and rewrite something he created because a man in power told him to.
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Blade Runner: 30 Years Later
- Thread starter PhoncipleBone
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Dick was paranoid enough. Just imagine having him to come in and rewrite something he created because a man in power told him to.
Nappuccino
Member
I realize that he wasn't tied to the production, but his dialog has that sort of slightly off-noir quality that I think could have worked.
plus the guy wrote like a machine- he could have written three different complete narration scripts in an afternoon.
edit: and yes, his paranoid nature would have added an interesting quality to the whole affair.
You're talking about Roland Kibbee? I wouldn't say he was a hack; just that most of his big credits came in the 40's and '50's or in television. He's won Emmys and anyone who wrote for the Marx Bros. 'A Night in Casablanca' is OK by me.
Doing a re-write on another's work at the last minute doesn't automatically make a screenwriter a hack or there wouldn't be a non-hack writer left in town. And big sections of the Hampton/Peoples original narration were supposedly retained anyway.
Whatever happened in the recording booth is really immaterial, the way Ford delivered the lines reads as world-weary and it works with the tone of the film. Of course, others prefer Blade Runner sans V.O. and that's fine, there's a cut for that.
The interesting thing is that the v.o. in italian is not bad, maybe even other foreign audience are better served than the english one.
When I was a kid, the v.o. helped me a lot understanding the background of the movie, and when in 1992 I've seen the DC on theater, initially I missed it now I can't stand it.
When I was a kid, the v.o. helped me a lot understanding the background of the movie, and when in 1992 I've seen the DC on theater, initially I missed it now I can't stand it.
Whether or not Deckard is a Replicant, I think it can be argued that Roy's altruism was genuine, and not simply a case of one Replicant protecting another. Unless I'm misremembering something from the movie, a Replicant can't accurately and quickly distinguish between a human and a replicant like the test does, they aren't wired to sniff out and grade empathy. Given doctored memories, they can't even distinguish themselves from humans without the probing and dissection of an administered test. Anyway, back to Roy.
"Proud of yourself, little man?"
"Not very sporting to fire on an unarmed opponent. I thought you were supposed to be good. Aren't you the... 'good' man?"
"Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave."
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe."
"Time to die." (what's interesting is that this was said to Deckard earlier by one of the other Replicants, then in malice, now in earnestness)
He's asserting and relating to Deckard like he's some different manner of creature altogether, someone who doesn't know the Replicant constant of persecution, of running, of being submerged in perpetual fear. If Deckard is a Replicant, Roy doesn't seem to know it, he regards Deckard as being as alien and as misunderstanding as any other human being he's met. Even in death, he makes no reference or allusion to Deckard's nature, for him it seems this moment is all about sparing a life when he could have felt perfectly justified in taking it.
Even if the two of them are still Replicants, it's still a beautiful moment because Roy shows he understands something significant about the value of life given (and not taken), and it's something Deckard is only beginning to understand. He in essence closes the movie by paying it forward by taking Rachel under his protection, and even if he turns out to be mistaken in thinking that they are fundamentally different beings (as Roy may have been with Deckard), that emerging understanding about the value of life is still powerful. It's a lesson learned by a replicant who knew what he was, then by a replicant who believes himself to be human, and by extension it is a lesson also for natural-born humanity, whose memories and lives were drawn into forming such humanized replicants to begin with.
Far from being a simple act of kin preserving kin, I think this moment is a delightfully convoluted act of compassion. The giver doesn't fully understand who he gives to or indeed himself, yet he gives. To be caught up in the discernment of who is natural-born here and who is engineered there is to miss the spirit of this exchange. It's an act of charity that transcends all boundaries: replicant, human, and everything in between.
"Proud of yourself, little man?"
"Not very sporting to fire on an unarmed opponent. I thought you were supposed to be good. Aren't you the... 'good' man?"
"Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave."
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe."
"Time to die." (what's interesting is that this was said to Deckard earlier by one of the other Replicants, then in malice, now in earnestness)
He's asserting and relating to Deckard like he's some different manner of creature altogether, someone who doesn't know the Replicant constant of persecution, of running, of being submerged in perpetual fear. If Deckard is a Replicant, Roy doesn't seem to know it, he regards Deckard as being as alien and as misunderstanding as any other human being he's met. Even in death, he makes no reference or allusion to Deckard's nature, for him it seems this moment is all about sparing a life when he could have felt perfectly justified in taking it.
Even if the two of them are still Replicants, it's still a beautiful moment because Roy shows he understands something significant about the value of life given (and not taken), and it's something Deckard is only beginning to understand. He in essence closes the movie by paying it forward by taking Rachel under his protection, and even if he turns out to be mistaken in thinking that they are fundamentally different beings (as Roy may have been with Deckard), that emerging understanding about the value of life is still powerful. It's a lesson learned by a replicant who knew what he was, then by a replicant who believes himself to be human, and by extension it is a lesson also for natural-born humanity, whose memories and lives were drawn into forming such humanized replicants to begin with.
Far from being a simple act of kin preserving kin, I think this moment is a delightfully convoluted act of compassion. The giver doesn't fully understand who he gives to or indeed himself, yet he gives. To be caught up in the discernment of who is natural-born here and who is engineered there is to miss the spirit of this exchange. It's an act of charity that transcends all boundaries: replicant, human, and everything in between.
Or maybe it was just out of amusement. He was grinning like the cheshire cat as Deckard was slipping. It's only once Deckard spat at him that he decided to move. Maybe he liked that fire? It's extremely hard to here, but he says "Ah! Kinship!" as he grabs Deckard. It's all so quick.
Maybe he doesn't even have a reason.
Not sure if he does. But if he does, it could be a way to express his satisfaction now that Deckard too knows what it is to live in fear.
Oh indeed. Or maybe he recognises Deckard is a replicant. Or maybe he never intended to kill Deckard anyway. Or maybe he's just being sarcastic because of the spitting thing and likes that even at the end Deckard has fight in him - a soldier like Batty would like that. Or maybe he just really, really wanted to make a point and now he has to have someone hear his last words.
Now watch this and listen close. See the spit and hear "Ah! Kinship!"
It's such an odd bit of sound mixing and visual editing - I had to be told by the commentary exactly what he was saying to know he said anything at all. I always just heard "ah!" and assumed it was a grunt of exertion.
Well, it's pretty easy to imagine. As a career novelist/short story writer submitting work to publishers, he was probably in that situation dozens of times.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
It was a joke. The man was both brilliant and fucking insane.
Liquidsnake
Banned
Anyone.
Alright gonna have to order that set with the final cut so I can finally check it out, I'm still holding onto my opinion of Deckard's humanity/replicant status being up in the air though, I much more enjoy the movie that way
Based on my last viewing of the Final Cut, it is still pretty ambiguous. It's been awhile, and I get all the different cuts confused, though. Looks AMAZING on Blu.
Definitely an interesting detail, though its placement would seem to merely further add nuance to the moment: they're made brothers in finally sharing one small aspect of understanding with each other. Roy uses his remaining time to perform a traditionally human gesture: last words. The deaths of all the other Replicants, to my recollection, passed without word or gesture in the end, yet here Roy leaves his final thoughts with a witness. Doesn't really add up to me, Roy regarding Deckard as human handily explains all of his demeanor and actions toward him.
God, Hauer delivery is fucking amazing, I never get tired of hearing that line.
Wolfe
Member
Yeah I love his performance in this movie.
adamsappel
Member
I saw the film in its original release in 1982. I was 15. I noticed Deckard's eyes flashing in his apartment. I thought, "What the hell was that?" when the unicorn scene was on, but understood what it meant when I saw Gaff's origami. This version had the narration and the final footage from The Shining (which I semi-guessed it was). Scott always intended Deckard to be a replicant.
Nappuccino
Member
edit Never mind.
either way, Harrison Ford is adamant that the eyes flashing was a missed cue on his part and was left in the movie.
either way, Harrison Ford is adamant that the eyes flashing was a missed cue on his part and was left in the movie.
adamsappel
Member
Maybe if it happened once, but I think it happens at least twice to Deckard, and I think it's a deliberate dramatic point when it happens to Rachel.
Either way, I think it's really cool that the movie still inspires such passionate discussion.
Either way, I think it's really cool that the movie still inspires such passionate discussion.
Yep, I put it on and am mesmerised from start to finish. My favourite film.
Oh damn how did I miss this? Yeah, no - footage has nothing to do with Legend. Was shot as part of the Blade Runner shoot. This is another annoyingly persistent meme like "tears in the rain was improvised right there!!"
I think you're mis-remembering because nobody outside of production staff saw the unicorn scene until the Director's Cut release in 1992. The inclusion of the unicorn scene was near-enough the only reason Scott agreed to endorse it as a director's cut.
adamsappel
Member
Perhaps, although I swear I saw it in the theater.
Watching my Blu-rays again, what a fantastic movie, but that seduction scene between Deckard and Rachel plays out really creepy and rapish, nowadays.
Rewatch the movie, pay attention to any unicorns you might see along the way, and then you will get it.
Well, both the Director's Cut and Final Cut have had limited theatrical runs, so maybe you caught it in 1992 or 2007?
Yeah, though perhaps part of the point. Deckard doesn't like the fact he's fallen for this machine, as he thinks of her. He's swelling with confusion, emotion and, to be blunt, huge amounts of pure lust.
Interestingly, there's a lot more footage of that scene that you can see in the workprint - it comes off as much more sensual and erotic. In all properly released cuts of the film, it almost comes across as rape.
Yet I think both portrayals of it are honest and believable. Even when it appears harsh and forceful, there's still a reaction and wanting from Rachel as well, albeit forced out of her.
Dr Zhivago
Member
I've started getting updates from the BR Facebook page which consist of quotes from the film, starting from the beginning. Perhaps they're building up for something on the 30th anniversary?
Also, I asked before but didn't seem to get a response - is the 5-disc blu-ray set all blu-rays? I've got the 5-disc DVD version, and wondered if it's worth tracking down (rather than just getting the standard blu-ray version).
Also, I asked before but didn't seem to get a response - is the 5-disc blu-ray set all blu-rays? I've got the 5-disc DVD version, and wondered if it's worth tracking down (rather than just getting the standard blu-ray version).
The three discs with the versions of the film are Blu-Rays. The Dangerous Days Making of disc and the Archive disc are both DVDs.
outunderthestars
Banned
I've never watched the film. Going to buy either the Director's of Final Cut on itunes. Which should I buy?
Nappuccino
Member
get the 5-dics set.
Have the best of all worlds.
Yeah, the tears in the rain thing is a little annoying... but I had to do a lot of googling to find anywhere that mentioned the Unicorn stuff was actually a part of Blade Runner's shoot. I'm a bit surprised that isn't more well known.
Still, I don't find it to be strong evidence, pro or con, of Deckard's status as a human or replicant for all the other reasons I listed already.
outunderthestars
Banned
Nappuccino
Member
I don't own anything that can play dvd's or blu-rays.
Not even your computer?
edit: well, if you cannot get both. I'd say get the Director's Cut if you want the movie that is more interesting to discuss. Get the Final Cut if you want a movie that looks stunning even compared to today's movies, is paced just a tad better but removes some of the ambiguity.
Synth_floyd
Banned
Does Batty actually say "kinship" when he stops Deckard from falling? Has this been confirmed by people involved with the film?
According to Ridley Scott, Deckard is a replicant but according to basically everyone else he's a human, like in the novel. It works much better with him as a human anyway so in my mind he's still human.
According to Ridley Scott, Deckard is a replicant but according to basically everyone else he's a human, like in the novel. It works much better with him as a human anyway so in my mind he's still human.
Nappuccino
Member
I can almost hear "kinship"... but it also sounds like grunting because he's trying to catch/lift Deckhard.
outunderthestars
Banned
The Final Cut is just what the name says. Final. It is Ridley Scott's actual Director's Cut (he merely approved the DC, not did it himself). It fixes continuity errors, visual errors and dialogue errors. It cleans up the picture incredibly ("it looks like it was shot yesterday!"). It has the best pacing and editing. It was the version that elevated the film in my estimation from very good to the best film ever.
I think, if you can only buy one copy you'd be best served by the Final Cut. It's what the director would want you to see, as it is the only version where he had complete artistic control over his own film. I can completely understand people preferring other cuts, but if you can only see one, or want to know which to watch first, Final Cut.
Yes. Mentioned both in Future Noir and the commentary for Final Cut. You can also find it on IMDB quotations. I've never turned them on, but I'd also assume the subtitles also say it. But yeah, like I said, really, really weird piece of sound mixing there. It had to be pointed out to me before I heard anything but a grunt.
But the Director's Cut is no less ambiguous than the Final Cut. It has both the unicorn dream and the glowy eyes. The only difference would be the unicorn sequence in Director's Cut is much shorter, due to the entire footage not being found until the Final Cut archival and restoration process.
GhostRidah
Member
So what is the best version to own? I need to get this on bluray.
Final Cut Final Cut Final Cut Final Cut.
Especially as you're getting it on blu ray. In fact, I think it's the only version of the film you can by separately on blu ray, rather than as part of a boxset.
Also comes with an enthralling documentary about Blade Runner that runs for over three hours.
Nappuccino
Member
Agreed. But the 5 disc set is easily worth the money just for the behind the scenes stuff.
If you're referring to the big documentary, 'Dangerous Days', that comes with the Final Cut anyway. The only thing it's really missing is 'All Our Variant Futures' which deals with the making of the Final Cut. Quite why that wasn't edited into 'Dangerous Days' itself I have no idea.
However, hearing Paul Sammon's commentary track on the workprint is like a documentary in itself. Certainly worth it if you can find it cheap enough these days.
Nappuccino
Member
I really do need to pick up the bluray at some point. I really want to see the workprint version.
I have The Final Cut standalone bluray in my player right now. I only see commentary tracks in the options. It appears to be identical to the first disc of the 5-disc set (which places Dangerous Days on disc 2).
edit: This is an American release. Maybe it's different elsewhere.
Boss I have the Final Cut blu ray sitting infront of me, too. Disc two is a DVD copy of Dangerous Days.
What country you from? This is from the UK.
Nappuccino
Member
According to Amazon, Dangerous Days is included in the standalone copy.
I can 100% guarantee that Dangerous Days is NOT included in the American release of the bluray. My copy just arrived from Amazon two days ago.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004FQX5CK/?tag=neogaf0e-20
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004FQX5CK/?tag=neogaf0e-20
Dr Zhivago
Member
Cheers. Guess it depends on how much I want the other two versions in HD...
Rutger Hauer is on YouTube!
And here he discusses thoughts on that final scene, including putting to damn rest the "tears in the rain was improvised!" thing. Complete legend. It's always a pleasure to hear thoughts from actors who clearly get invested in the philosophical aspects of their own characters.
"RUTGER HAUER Blade Runner talks" is actually a series of short uploads he made on YouTube about Blade Runner. On one, he even found an alternate cut of the Tyrell murder scene on YouTube and talks about it, including how how always hated the suggestion he killed Sebastian because "it makes no damn sense", and in another says why kissing seems important to the Batty character etc. Really interesting stuff. You really get how important this film was to Hauer. "It burns into your soul. I cannot say it anyway else." Man after my own heart.
And here he discusses thoughts on that final scene, including putting to damn rest the "tears in the rain was improvised!" thing. Complete legend. It's always a pleasure to hear thoughts from actors who clearly get invested in the philosophical aspects of their own characters.
"RUTGER HAUER Blade Runner talks" is actually a series of short uploads he made on YouTube about Blade Runner. On one, he even found an alternate cut of the Tyrell murder scene on YouTube and talks about it, including how how always hated the suggestion he killed Sebastian because "it makes no damn sense", and in another says why kissing seems important to the Batty character etc. Really interesting stuff. You really get how important this film was to Hauer. "It burns into your soul. I cannot say it anyway else." Man after my own heart.
Blue Submarine No. 6
Member
Ridley Scott filming an adaptation of Richard Morgan's Altered Carbon... the stuff dreams are made of...
I saw Blade Runner and The Thing within days of each other on release (and went back to see each a few more times while they were in the theatre), and tho' I loved both films I absolutely hated the voice over in Blade Runner from the very first viewing, especially the end... I'd seen The Thing first, and Carpenter's downbeat, understated finale seemed so much better than Scott's faux sunshine and birdsong "I don't know how long we had together. Who does?" ending... But ya, absolutely classic; one of the best movies ever made in any genre...
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