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[Fugu]

Lossing natural cancelling into itssu from pretty much everything made it that litchi lost a lot of "safe" game as well as extra hit... opponente flying? itssu-->A, opponent almost on the ground? itsuu->C and then it's (was) frigging combo time..
afaik most litchi combo know starts from either A-B-C or 6A,6B, and then pretty much they all converge into a 2C, 3C, making your comboing very predictable if the opponent knows litchi..
hopefully as i get back the hangs on boobie lady i *might* find myself using more diversified combos, but as is the starting string is too much standard (as far as hit sequence, aka high-mid-low sequence, is involved).. maybe it's just me..

I disagree.

Itsuu A is now better as an anti-air than it was in CS1 when thrown out neutral because now it does both hits on block, making it safer as long as you don't whiff it. You can also do 623D Haku Hatsu off of an Itsuu A hit (you can cancel from Itsuu still) which leads to huge damage and a lot of carry (less than CS1 but really, really big for CS2). 2C[m] also allows you to combo directly into Itsuu A if you CH it, so it is still fine as an anti-air. (For the record, I never used Itsuu C at neutral so you're on your own for that one.)

Also, the convergence thing is only a problem if you hitconfirm your combos as blockstrings (as in you do your combos anyway whether you land them or not and pass them off as blockstrings). If you start on, say, 5B[m], you can immediately go overhead or low if you want to, or you can put the staff down, or you can jump cancel (as long as you don't whiff), or you can go into 5C[m], or 6D[m], or 2C[m], or you can just stand there and do absolutely nothing if you want to. There are less options than there were in CS1 to be sure, but there's still enough there that people shouldn't be able to entirely predict you every time. It's also important to note that if you manage to get staffless while in pressure (not entirely hard but definitely not safe) then you have access to some ridiculous pressure and mixups due to the far more open-ended gatlings and the fact that at any time you can just toss the staff.

I think the most resonating Litchi nerf is the fact that they've now made 3C[m] totally worthless except under very specific scenarios.

Edit: I also made a mistake in that last post. You can 50/50 off of 5C[m]; it's 2C[m] you can't 50/50 off of.

 

[Prototype-03]

Oh, come on. This statement is dubious for a number of reasons, not the least of which being that at top-level play both games are almost entirely ruled by their mind games; SFIV is just more subtle.
If you are making a statement on the metagame, then it's verifiably untrue. The force of intelligence and creativity ("mind games") in a competitive scene is largely proportional to the quantity of viable contenders and is inversely proportional to the influence that execution has on these viable contenders (dropped combos are not mind games). In simpler terms, smart players unhindered by execution will push the extent of the mind games, and more players means more pushing. Street Fighter IV has a larger stable of players who have the mechanical capability to use and abuse the tools given to them than BlazBlue does, and that will forever hinder arguments that BlazBlue is an innately superior game. Zidane's frequent berating of North America's BB scene holds an element of truth: as a continent we are not playing the game at an exploratory level due to our deeply restricted community; we are relegated to playing each other in small groups and are perpetually limited by the small fragment of the metagame that we are exposed to. This is obviously not true of Japan's BB scene but it's indicative of the influence that a player base can have on the overall strength of a metagame.

...It's amazing that I come off as a SFIV advocate in this thread because I really, truly do think that it is a dull game to play. But to argue that such a large, competitive population is playing a categorically inferior game -- an assertion that amounts to you saying that a SFIV player would have to think harder/better to achieve success in BB for reasons other than their comfort with SFIV - is fallacious.

No, you're absolutely right. The thing about SF4 is that it's more of a neutral game, where it makes you position yourself in the right area to attack/mind games, which isn't necessarily a bad thing but it's a different mindset from BB, where it's more offensive oriented where you're punished for an extended neutral game. I have never stated it's a superior game because of the extra mechanics, but it does give you more options than SF4... Hopefully we can agree on that. It gives you an option to barrier, counter assault, burst, etc, which means you have MORE things to worry about, which sets up for (but not necessarily always used, like you said) for a ridiculous amount of mind games in a short span. In that clip that I've shown just shows how much you have to be on your toes to keep your pressure (mainly what your opponent is thinking even when you start on your combos, and if you're on the defensive, to think if you should burst or not).

And what you stated above about the small community is one of the bad things about BB. It's hard to make advancements into the game with a small number of people, but it doesn't mean that it stalls. Obviously, Ragna eventually solidified as mid upper tier by the end of CS1 but it took almost a year to figure it out. On the other hand, games like MvC3 is rapidly changing because of so many people playing it. We won't be able to compete with the JPN players for a long time, not only because they're better, but they've also had this game for a longer period of time. I liked Satoshi's Mak when he came to the states, but I couldn't say that it was fair considering they had the game so much longer (not that it matters TOO much... their learning curve is ridiculous). Which brings it to my other point: MvC3 is much smaller in JPN but they have been able to beat out US recently, so the small community cannot be used either as an excuse; just that we suck that much more (listen to the US BB commentators).

 

[USD]

Tokido playing Noel, lolz:

http://www.twitch.tv/topangatv

 

[Prototype-03]

Tokido playing Rachel:

http://www.twitch.tv/topangatv

YOU LIED! I GOT SO EXCITED.

I see a noel mirror

 

[USD]

YOU LIED! I GOT SO EXCITED.

I see a noel mirror

Oh my bad, was totally thinking Noel, typed Rachel. Haha oops.

No way in hell Tokido would play Rachel, lolz.

 

[QisTopTier]

But he sure likes getting owned by one

 

[witchedwiz]

I disagree.

Itsuu A is now better as an anti-air than it was in CS1 when thrown out neutral because now it does both hits on block, making it safer as long as you don't whiff it. You can also do 623D Haku Hatsu off of an Itsuu A hit (you can cancel from Itsuu still) which leads to huge damage and a lot of carry (less than CS1 but really, really big for CS2). 2C[m] also allows you to combo directly into Itsuu A if you CH it, so it is still fine as an anti-air. (For the record, I never used Itsuu C at neutral so you're on your own for that one.)

Also, the convergence thing is only a problem if you hitconfirm your combos as blockstrings (as in you do your combos anyway whether you land them or not and pass them off as blockstrings). If you start on, say, 5B[m], you can immediately go overhead or low if you want to, or you can put the staff down, or you can jump cancel (as long as you don't whiff), or you can go into 5C[m], or 6D[m], or 2C[m], or you can just stand there and do absolutely nothing if you want to. There are less options than there were in CS1 to be sure, but there's still enough there that people shouldn't be able to entirely predict you every time. It's also important to note that if you manage to get staffless while in pressure (not entirely hard but definitely not safe) then you have access to some ridiculous pressure and mixups due to the far more open-ended gatlings and the fact that at any time you can just toss the staff.

I think the most resonating Litchi nerf is the fact that they've now made 3C[m] totally worthless except under very specific scenarios.

Edit: I also made a mistake in that last post. You can 50/50 off of 5C[m]; it's 2C[m] you can't 50/50 off of.

i know that you're right but i can't help but feeling castrated.. i abused itsuu cancelling for dealing that little tidbit of extradamage ALWAYS whenever i felt it unsafe to try starting a combo, so loosing it feels like a bigger nerf than it actually is :Y
as for the pressure, duh that's a given
when i can pressure or better corner pressure the opponents unless i fuck up, the opponent (at least online) is bound to get fucked sooner or later possibly into a combo, worst case scenario into some wall-bouncing combo :L

anywya considering that my main in cs1 is litchi and i used to sub noel/arakune, in cs2 which character might give me a spin?
mu12, lambda11, valka, makoto, tsubaki, plat or hazama (him i can't get lo like at all)...

 

[Prototype-03]

anywya considering that my main in cs1 is litchi and i used to sub noel/arakune, in cs2 which character might give me a spin?
mu12, lambda11, valka, makoto, tsubaki, plat or hazama (him i can't get lo like at all)...

Tsubaki, Ragna and Bang? I don't know... all the characters are so different you might as well just try out everyone.

 

[Master Milk]

It'd be nice to have a sub to play sometimes.

 

[Prototype-03]

It'd be nice to have a sub to play sometimes.

That's easy. Replace loli with goth loli. Pick Rachel.

 

[Master Milk]

That's easy. Replace loli with goth loli. Pick Rachel.

I'm not compatible with zoners. Or vampires.

 

[Fugu]

Play as Litchi. If you're mad about learning Platinum, Litchi will be just great for you.

 

[Master Milk]

Play as Litchi. If you're mad about learning Platinum, Litchi will be just great for you.

The reason I don't have a sub isn't because I'm undecided, it's because I hate everyone that's not Platinum.

And where did you get mad from?

 

[Prototype-03]

I'm not compatible with zoners. Or vampires.

Rachel isn't a real zoner though. She's more pressure/setup based.

disclaimer: my playstyle does not show how annoying she is.

 

[Master Milk]

Rachel isn't a real zoner though. She's more pressure/setup based.

disclaimer: my playstyle does not show how annoying she is.

She's a real vampire though.

 

[Fugu]

The reason I don't have a sub isn't because I'm undecided, it's because I hate everyone that's not Platinum.

And where did you get mad from?

I learn subs when I get mad, I assumed that's why you were doing it.

 

[Master Milk]

I learn subs when I get mad, I assumed that's why you were doing it.

Ah, yea, that makes sense.

It is frustrating only having Platinum's shitty answers when fighting Hazama, but eh.

I can clearly see that the reason I lose is because I suck, so I'm not at the stage of being able to blame my character choice just yet.

 

[Master Milk]

Litchi is so fucking full of shit.

 

[alstein]

Lambda and Mu gets me mad, what's the best counter to them?

 

[QisTopTier]

Lambda and Mu gets me mad, what's the best counter to them?

Learning how to block while moving

 

[ApolloJoh]

Litchi is so fucking full of shit.

Nuh-uh.

 

[Master Milk]

Nuh-uh.

Yes, she is. When you get counter hit, and your super is still going, long enough for you to recover and run across the screen to finish comboing, you're full of shit.

 

[QisTopTier]

Yes, she is. When you get counter hit, and your super is still going, long enough for you to recover and run across the screen to finish comboing, you're full of shit.

Damn you are gonna hate Mu if that's what annoys you about litchi

 

[ApolloJoh]

Lol, there're much more crazier things that other characters can do.

Basically, everyone is full of shit.

 

[Master Milk]

Basically, everyone is full of shit.

Platinum isn't.

 

[QisTopTier]

Platinum isn't.

You are wrong. VERY VERY VERY VERY wrong.

 

[Master Milk]

You are wrong. VERY VERY VERY VERY wrong.

I would love to see Platinum do something that would make me think otherwise.

 

[Prototype-03]

I would love to see Platinum do something that would make me think otherwise.

That bubble. BUBBLE IS ANNOYING.

 

[Master Milk]

That bubble. BUBBLE IS ANNOYING.

. . . you can't be serious.

 

[ApolloJoh]

The bubble is powerful, man.

 

[Prototype-03]

. . . you can't be serious.

You can't just randomly throw it out but if set up properly, it's really annoying. Plat is just all annoyance if set up correctly.

 

[QisTopTier]

Lets not forget the mind games with her float.

 

[Master Milk]

You can't just randomly throw it out but if set up properly, it's really annoying. Plat is just all annoyance if set up correctly.

But that's not something I'd call full of shit though.

Noel's D moves are full of shit.

Litchi's super bs I was complaining about earlier is full of shit.

Hazama is full of shit.

Platinum is . . . annoying? And slow. Is there anything about Platinum that's truly rage inducing?

 

[darkblade77]

cat rockets beat spark bolt if you play Tager, I bet that's rage-inducing

 

[Master Milk]

I just learned that the DLC actually have an Arcade mode, just that the consoles didn't get the update. That coupled with already not getting the new opening make me really sad.

cat rockets beat spark bolt if you play Tager, I bet that's rage-inducing

They cancel. That's hardly rage inducing.

 

[darkblade77]

rockets; she can fire more than one at a time. Also a trade is a shitty result for Tager no matter how you look at it, lol.

 

[QisTopTier]

Plat is... slow? wut?

 

[alstein]

. . . you can't be serious.

That bubble is why I never want to be close to the corner against Platinum. Outside of that, she's pretty standard though.

The only gimmickless character to me is Hakumen low. Only thing he has is that loop, and that loop isn't as good now. He became a lot more solid in CS2 so it evens out.

 

[QisTopTier]

That bubble is why I never want to be close to the corner against Platinum. Outside of that, she's pretty standard though.

The only gimmickless character to me is Hakumen low. Only thing he has is that loop, and that loop isn't as good now. He became a lot more solid in CS2 so it evens out.

Cutting projectiles and doing 80% life combos of a counter hit with his kick isn't gimicky?

 

[witchedwiz]

. . . you can't be serious.

no, you

 

[witchedwiz]

Cutting projectiles and doing 80% life combos of a counter hit with his kick isn't gimicky?

nope that is called "I trololololol you!"

 

[Master Milk]

Plat is... slow? wut?

Her normals. Everything is so weird and annoying!

 

[Prototype-03]

Cutting projectiles and doing 80% life combos of a counter hit with his kick isn't gimicky?

Doesn't mak and noel do the same off of anything? D:

Her normals. Everything is so weird and annoying!

Her normals aren't too weird. Tsubaki still has to worry about the 5BB. If hit from too far, it doesn't connect THAT's weird and annoying

 

[Master Milk]

Vice-Taicho, you guys ever play against them?

 

[Prototype-03]

Vice-Taicho, you guys ever play against them?

Not me. Any reason why you ask?

 

[Master Milk]

Not me. Any reason why you ask?

He's got a really high PSR, like 260+, and I've played three against the last two days. Completely destroyed, of course. Ah, no, I did well one round, but didn't clutch it out. I was just curious if anyone was familiar with his Litchi.

 

[Fallacy]

I like fighting platinum, definitely feel like tsubaki beats her.

 

[ApolloJoh]

He's got a really high PSR, like 260+, and I've played three against the last two days. Completely destroyed, of course. Ah, no, I did well one round, but didn't clutch it out. I was just curious if anyone was familiar with his Litchi.

I've played him a few times. He's fun to fight.

 

[Master Milk]

I've played him a few times. He's fun to fight.

Aw crap, I'll definitely have to stay away from him now!

I don't think my game is improving at all. I seem to just be picking up more and more bad habits.

 

[Fugu]

Vice-Taicho, you guys ever play against them?

Let me tell you something about Vice-Taicho.

For the past two years, Toronto's BB scene has gone up to Montreal to play against their scene. You know what happens literally every time? Vice-Taicho cleans house, that's what happens. And it's the worst because he's a super nice guy and he's really helpful and he's a great sport, so you can't even hate him. He's just ridiculously talented and very dedicated. I've never seen him lose a set offline. Ever. A round? Sure; anyone can take rounds. I can take rounds. A match? Sometimes. But he's never been acquainted with the loser's bracket.

But he hates online play and playing him online doesn't get you the full experience. He's amazing. He is probably the best player in Canada and easily one of the best in North America.

Yes, she is. When you get counter hit, and your super is still going, long enough for you to recover and run across the screen to finish comboing, you're full of shit.

Full of shit? If you get CH'd by daisharin outside of the corner then you made a mistake; the fact is that while daisharin is very strong in the corner, it's NOT midscreen and there's a lot you can do to deal with it.

It sounds like you tried to beat out a midscreen zoning daisharin that was baiting you. The fact is, if this happened, it means that whomever is playing the Litchi either won by dumb luck (unlikely) or knew in advance that you would try and make an attack (likely). If you got hit by a three-input daisharin (usually 744 or 966）then you were baited. If you got hit by a full-input daisharin with either alternating 7 9 inputs or all 7s or all 9s (in or near the corner), then you were baited. If you got hit by any daisharin involving solid 2 inputs or alternating 1 or 3 inputs, you were baited. If you got hit by the falling staff, then you weren't paying attention. Don't think that just because you see a forward diagonal input that you can instantly crawl under it. You are essentially complaining that you were mixed up by an option that costs 50% heat and costs Litchi the staff. It's especially ridiculous considering the reward for a midscreen daisharin hit is tiny unless they predicted the exact hit that you would slip up on.

If you think it's full of shit, let me know what you think Litchi's corner pressure should consist of. Also consider the fact that you can barely combo into daisharin and you can't combo into the other two at all. You can also only combo out of daisharin meaningfully in the corner and combos off of kokushi look like air-to-air bnbs. Litchi has some of the game's most situational supers and it's not like some houtenjin shit where you can just whip it out to quadruple your damage potential. Litchi's supers are good at what they do because you have to force a situation that allows them to come up. If people didn't neutral/down tech shit, kokushi would be entirely worthless. If people didn't get knocked down in the corner with the staff in the right place/on Litchi then daisharin would be very limited.