QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
LOL you so badPrototype-03 said:
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
BlazBlue: Continuum Shift II |OT| The Sequel Blue Me Away
- Thread starter sixteen-bit
- Start date
Master Milk
Member
Fighting Arakune is lame.
Fighting bad Arakunes is worse.
Someone needs to get online.
Fighting bad Arakunes is worse.
Someone needs to get online.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
You mean her super short range crystal thing that has 10 thousand frames of recovery? Where the range on it is so short it's not even safe to use with 50% meter cause you can only cancel if it hits. I rather not have that at all so I never accidentally use it thinking it might work for once. XDFugu said:
QisTopTier said:
Still better than...
Taokaka (no meterless reversal, meter reversal kinda bad)
Hakumen (no reversal)
Rachel (guard point "reversal", from 3F and -34 -- what -- on block)
Lambda (debatable, gravity well requires pseudometer, has a great reversal for 50 heat)
Hazama (debatable, strong reversal, requires meter)
Carl (dash "reversal")
Tager (360)
Tsubaki (reversals are very situational, C is basically useless, D is not bad but requires pseudometer)
Noel (CA is the closest thing she has to a reversal)
Arakune (no reversal)
Valkenhyn (sort of has a super reversal)
Bang (situational guard point moves, daifunka I guess)
I was going to include Platinum as well but her reversals are quite strong when she can access them. I also included Rachel and Bang because their guard point moves are substantially slower than Mu's pseudo-DP (all of Bang's guard point moves except 6D have more than 1F before they guard and all of them are situational, unlike Mu's; Rachel's is 3F), which at 10F is faster than tsubame gaeshi (but slower than divider?). Also, tsubame cannot be RC'd period.
There are so few characters in this game with conventional DPs that I actually had to look at a list of the characters in the game to make sure I wasn't missing anyone. The characters with indisputably better meterless reversals are: Ragna, Jin, Litchi and Makoto (probably in that order, too). Even if I'm wrong about, like, half of those characters, it's still a big list.
EDIT: For your reference...
http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/frameData/mu/623C.html
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Yeah, but you gotta remember she's super thin as well, so while that looks kinda far out, it really isn't. Oh you wanna see something truely dumb as fuck that always pisses me off? 
http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/frameData/mu/5C.html
Proto and me laugh our fucking asses off at how many moves can snuff this shit out cause of those hit boxes on it.
This is equally hilarious for other reasons http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/frameData/mu/6A.html
and this is for Proto -.- http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/frameData/rachel/groundThrow.html
http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/frameData/rachel/airThrow.html
Fuck you seriously
http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/frameData/mu/5C.html
Proto and me laugh our fucking asses off at how many moves can snuff this shit out cause of those hit boxes on it.
This is equally hilarious for other reasons http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/frameData/mu/6A.html
and this is for Proto -.- http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/frameData/rachel/groundThrow.html
http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/frameData/rachel/airThrow.html
Fuck you seriously
Master Milk
Member
No.Fugu said:
Also, fuck Noel. Fuck her to hell.
What? How can you even complain about bat? It has 11F of invulnerability, is just about the safest DP in existence (only -10, compare to -23 for tsubame gaeshi and -30 for C divider), can be RC'd, and has a GREAT hitbox.Master Milk said:
Also, Mu's bizarre hurtbox makes her DP less necessary so it seems like a fair tradeoff to me. I see your 5C and raise you j.2C.
http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/frameData/mu/j.2C.html
Master Milk
Member
Because I use it. But really though, I'm not complaining about her options, I just don't like that you think her options are strong.Fugu said:
No. I have no idea where you even got that idea from.Fugu said:
I've had the bat stuffed before, completely stuffed, so no, those invul frames don't mean anything to me.
The fact that you have to say "when she has access to them" should really be enough to understand why her reversals suck.
http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/frameData/platinum/5D_bat.htmlMaster Milk said:
http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/frameData/ragna/623C_1.html
Compared to Divider C, you've got no low coverage; the tradeoff is you essentially cover the length of your body with the bat. Your DP can't be anti-aired nor can it be poked through. The only thing you can't do with your DP that others can is use it as an anti-air, but that's because Platinum already has a great anti-air (2C).
Stuffed by what? Another DP? Did you miss? Were you baited? Was your opponent immediately in front of you and in a crouch state? That the invulnerability frames don't mean much to you does not nullify the fact that they exist and that exploiting them is the key to using any DP properly.
I said "when she has access to them" because it's a meterless reversal that she can't use all the time. The fact is, bat outclasses all of the guard point reversals on principle making it one of the best reversals in the game, so it's worth considering in spite of the fact that you won't have access to it most of the time (you won't have the bat most of the time).
Master Milk
Member
I'm not saying the hitbox isn't good, I'm saying it's not GREAT. The hitbox is basically the bat, but she doesn't swing the bat that far in front of her enough to catch things that aren't right in front of her. The move hits what you think it would, most of the time, but nothing more than that, so no, not GREAT.Fugu said:
DPs and Supers, yes, though Supers don't leave me salty because that's 50 meter. Missing and being baited are basically the same thing, and aren't what you can call being stuffed. Yes, the opponent is always directly in front, otherwise it'd be pointless to use the bat. Also, wouldn't the situation probably not call for a reversal if they weren't in front of you, pressuring? I don't know what crouching has to do with anything, I'm not talking about the bat missing. I don't think I've ever seen it miss low opponent. I mean the attack being completely eaten and beaten by another.Fugu said:
The invul frames are there, yes, and they're nice for a lot of things, but considering how limited the number of uses are, and how obvious it is when you're able to actually use it, I can't say I'm satisfied with them. I could understand trading with other DPs, but getting shut down completely just isn't called for.
Yea, I get why you said that. I'm saying that having to say it is the reason her reversal options can't be considered strong. Yea, when she has bat it's alright. But most of the time she doesn't, and when she does it's preventing you from using other options that help her get in to do damage. So when you're making a list of people that need better reversal options, she should be on that list as well.Fugu said:
I shouldn't have said anything. xD I'm fine with Platinum now, and I think her changes are great, too. I just don't like that you didn't have Platinum on that list lol
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Yeah her j.2C is the shit, although it's worse in CS2 than CS1 it's still great. Hope they keep the fatal counter on it for cs3 change of it.Fugu said:
I think if they're out of range of that bat then that's not something you can DP anyway. Litchi's DP definitely hits shorter than that (the first part anyway), as does Ragna's.Master Milk said:
Why in the world would you DP a DP? Also if that's what you don't like about it, I emplore you to play as Litchi for awhile, because her DP -- glorious as it is -- loses outright to Ragna's. But that doesn't really qualify as a flaw because it shouldn't happen, and the scenario you described is basically exactly when I would use it (to hit people out of unsafe pressure).
Ultimately I didn't put her on the list because it's subjective whether or not the threat of a strong DP makes her worse or better than the characters with guard point reversals. It was debatable and I didn't want to be accused of being disingenuous by including characters on that list for which a strong argument exists that they have better reversals than Mu's.
Master Milk
Member
It didn't happen often, and doesn't happen now that I know about it, but if you use a bat on wake up to get someone off you, if Ragna is that someone, you can easily eat a DP if that Ragna knows he doesn't have to be scared of bat.Fugu said:
Prototype-03
Member
Master Milk said:
There's always something you need to be worried about with every character, such as not resetting often against Tager due to 360s and 720s. You just need to adjust accordingly. If he beats you out with the DPs on wake up, you could also just block on wake up (yomi layer 2).
Onion_Relish
Member
Is blazyblye a good psp game? Anyone know from first hand experience? I'm looking to branch out a bit and get a fighter for my pipple (have a go). Also, ive never played a game with the 3a, 4b notation or whatever. Do you have more normals than most games? Also, the 3 is just phone notation right.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Where are the ragna's at that play that way? I wouldn't mind some free wins.Master Milk said:
Wait hold on, you think someone is going to DP you on YOUR wakeup and you're worried about the wakeup being too godlike because you don't have the threat of a DP? Why don't you just wake up blocking and, y'know, hit them out of their -30 DP?Master Milk said:
For the record, the reversal on wakeup strategy is notoriously dangerous and you shouldn't get used to doing it much anyway.
Master Milk
Member
Because I shouldn't have to? My limited use, semi-rare "DP" shouldn't be losing to anything that doesn't take meter and can be thrown out whenever.Fugu said:
As I said, I've learned since then, but it still pisses me off.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Jack of all trades usually doesn't beat shit. And that's what Plat is a style ofMaster Milk said:
Why shouldn't you have to? You should be glad for the opportunity. A -30 frame advantage means you can start with basically any move you want and still get CH properties. DPing someone on wakeup is legitimately really, really dumb and every time someone does it you should break out the party hat.Master Milk said:
The thing is, your DP (what's with the quotes? It's a textbook DP in everything except input) is designed on the same premise of every other DP: It beats almost every move outright assuming the input is timed correctly. The loophole is that DPs will inherently have to beat other DPs. What you're asking is for your DP to be the best DP in the game in terms of invincibility when it's already the best DP in the game in terms of frame advantage, as well as having a good hitbox. The fact is, the bat has such short active frames that if it had any more invincibility than it already does it would be overpowered outright. It can also be RC'd and that's a huge deal. Absolutely huge. Platinum has some problems but her DP isn't one of them, and her rushdown is good enough that -- in a game where more than half the cast does not have a conventional meterless reversal -- she doesn't need one. I say this as someone who plays a character who has to spend a decent percentage of the match with literally zero reversal options.
Master Milk
Member
Ah, that does make sense, but I still don't like it!QisTopTier said:
I keep saying why I shouldn't have to. Platinum only has three of the bats, randomly. I don't see how making the move a little more invincible so it trades with other DPs would make it overpowered when it already beats everything else anyway. It's not like it can beat everything else more. I don't see what the big deal is. DP vs DP is rare, and probably shouldn't even happen to begin with.Fugu said:
I'm not sure what the big deal about an RC is, or why you would say Platinum doesn't need her reversal.
Also, quotes because it's not a dp, it's a homerun.
Prototype-03
Member
Master Milk said:
Because half the cast does not have a DP. Noel, Taokaka, Bang, Valkenhayn, Rachel, Arakune, Carl, and Tager do not have one. Of the ones that do, Hakumen, Lambda, Litchi, Tsubaki and Plat's are situational. Mu's is bad, Hazama's is non-traditional. The ones that have a good DP are Makoto, Jin and Ragna.
Consider yourself lucky that your situational DP is good. Rachel's chair is a horrible reversal, and in the worst case scenario, characters like Valk don't even have a reversal. Their best bet is usually a DA.
edit: I would actually argue that Plat has the best DP in the game with the bat because that thing comes out so fast, and all you have to do is mash D instead of the DP motion (not to mention it's super safe). The wake up DP thing is a moot point. That's like asking my Lobelias to beat all the projectiles in the game.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Master Milk said:
And this doesn't make sense and I don't like it.
I'll bitch about this all damn day!
Prototype-03
Member
QisTopTier said:
And this doesn't make sense and I don't like it.I'll bitch about this all damn day!
Perfect setups for my j2c's! I LOVE IT!
It can "beat everything else more", though. The longer the invincibility frames, the narrower the punish time becomes (you can't punish while it's invincible, you can't punish after the move is over). It's already -10, which is very short for a DP (comparable move: Litchi's staffless 2B). Any shorter than that and you're literally starting to talk about having to jab people out of their DP out of necessity.Master Milk said:
You want to beat C Divider on neutral with both of you using it at the same time? That means you need 16 frames of invulnerability. Congratulations, your reversal is now -4. At -4, your reversal would be safer than the vast majority of uncancelled normals. If you can't see why this is poor balance then I would suggest you go find out how difficult it actually is to punish a move that's -4, especially one with as much blockstun as the bat. Litchi's stripper pole overhead (4D[m]) is -4 and I can tell you that it is so difficult to punish that I can often hit people out of them trying to punish me.
The fact that you can't use your bat all the time does not excuse poor balance. Why is Litchi's reversal not the best in the game, considering she has to give up the staff to use it and cannot use it while she doesn't have it? It's because there are more things to consider than simply availability vs. efficacy. If the bat was balanced as you want it to be, then no character would be able to approach Platinum properly while she had the bat because she could insert it at any point and use it more or less safely because a -4 frame advantage is only a bad thing if people can capitalize on it (why not just bat them again when they go into punish your whiff bat?).
Also, being able to RC a DP is useful because DPs are supposed to be basically the most unsafe tool in your arsenal. RCing out of your DP to block the punish is extremely valuable (Litchi has to burst to do this) and is almost as valuable as RCing out of your DP to bait the punish and punish them for punishing you. As I mentioned previously with you being able to basically choose your weapon on a move that's -30 frames, a whiff or blocked DP gives people an opportunity like no other to fuck your shit. Being able to RC your DP not only takes this away from them, but actually puts the advantage back in your hands because if they pick a slow move to punish your DP you can now CH them.
It's funny, because you probably don't realize how important it is to be able to RC your DP because your DP is very fast. Play Litchi for a week, mash out some DPs, and see how many rounds it costs you that you wouldn't have had to lose if you could RC your DP.
EDIT: She doesn't need her reversal because she has zoning tools when she doesn't have it, and the zoning tools -- combined with the fact that you have a ton of mobility in BB -- mean that she is fairly capable at staying out of situations that would call for a reversal. The characters that have a dedicated, on-access reversal all the time (Makoto, Jin and Ragna) have it because their tools aren't conducive to completely shutting down an opponent either offensively or defensively, like, say, Lambda or Taokaka. Platinum has these tools available to her, and when she doesn't, she has a reversal (if you're playing without an item, that's your own problem).
EDIT: So I decided to read up on some bat, and I found this. It's oddly appropriate.
Origins is Mu's DP.
Prototype-03
Member
Mu's DP has great priority, don't get me wrong. IF it hits.
Master Milk
Member
I don't know why you're assuming the only thing you'd do is increase the invul on the move. If that breaks it, which it obviously would, just increase the recovery as well. I'd have no problems with the bat having more invul and being more punishable.Fugu said:
I already addressed the balance issue.Fugu said:
Litchi can call and release her staff at will, can't she? Platinum can't produce bats at will. As far as balancing the DP with the rest of their movesets, I can't really speak on Litchi, but isn't she considered a tier higher than Platinum? To me that says she has better options, so her DP not being the best might not really be a big deal for her. It's already not a big deal for Platinum, so Litchi with her better DP must surely have even less of a problem being a higher tier as well.
Ah, okay. Well, Ragna and Jin can RC theirs, so I didn't see what the big deal is. I would imagine because Litchi's is kind of a projectile with the staff that's why she can't RC it. But yea, I still don't see what the big deal is, especially when those with the best DPs in the game can do it. I guess it sucks for Litchi, but I'm talking about Platinum. If I swing and miss, I can't RC that, so if you're really baiting the DP there's still a punish waiting. And even if I have to RC, that's 50 meter that would have been better spent elsewhere, so you're still not making out terribly if you block the DP and force the RC.Fugu said:
I can kind of see that, yea. Missiles and maybe cat hammer are her only useful zoning tools though. Of course you aren't talking about bat, and I assume you aren't talking about pan and hammer. Bombs want to be zoning, but they're crappy. 1/3 chance for a zoning item isn't bad, but it's nothing to rely on in the middle of a match.Fugu said:
Also, stop editing your post it's taking me longer to respond! xD
16 frames of invulnerability is a lot. Like, the other moves with that much invulnerability are -30 on block. If it were -30 on block, it would be a below average DP due to its hitbox. If it were -20 on block, it might as well be -30 because right now, its biggest advantage is its relative safety. If it were -10 on block, it would be overpowered because now it's difficult to punish and has a ton of invincibility.Master Milk said:
Litchi is usually described as being B, just like Platinum. Also, you can return the staff whenever you want but you can get CH out of the staff return and you have a completely different set of moves without the staff.
By the way, tiers aren't relevant to you and I. If you want to have this argument, pick a page in this thread at random; there's probably about a 50% chance that you will strike a page in which I'm already having this argument.
There is rarely a better use of meter than RCing a bad DP. RCing your DP means you don't eat 4k on a CH combo, don't give your opponent mixup (and the meter) from the 4k damage combo, and means you can possibly get some damage of your own because unless your opponent predicts the RC, you will be at an advantage.
If you whiff your DP, you deserve to be hit and no DP should make allowances for this because it would completely ruin the game if it did (also, your DP is -10 so depending on where you whiff it you might just have to block). That the RC does not cover all options does not mitigate the fact that it covers some very important ones. If you outright missed someone with your DP because they "baited" it, you're not using your DP carefully enough. I know this as someone who doesn't use his DP carefully enough.
Master Milk
Member
So basically, you don't think you could balance it if you changed the invul on it? Ok, that's a respectable opinion.Fugu said:
I just saw this the other day when the loketest thread went up. If I'm reading that correctly, Litchi's considered the fifth best character in the game, A tier. Platinum is the twelth, B tier. I'm not trying to argue tiers, but if we're talking about theoretical balance, I don't see how tiers don't come into play.Fugu said:
Platinum can get CH out of her item summon as well. Momo, too, though that's at least an attack. So, Litchi has a 50% chance of having a DP, that you have lots of control over vs Platinum's 14-16% depending on if you want to include itemless or not, that is random. And of course, if you're looking for a certain item, stop it. Summoning and Momo'ing all day isn't safe in the slightest.
Ah, I see. Yea, I guess as Platinum I don't usually have to worry about that. Or at least, I don't think to. I've been punished for a blocked bat, but very rarely. I guess if her bat were slower then yea, being able to RC it would be a more valuable option.Fugu said:
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Oh hey look a tier list, oh hey look a rachel will most likely help win SBO
LOL AT CS1 TIER LIST HAVING TAO ANYTHING OTHER THAN S when it was obvious as fuck she was one of the best in the game period.
It's not an even split, and I bet if you took statistics on rounds lost by Litchi players, they would be weighted heavily towards staffless. Staffless Litchi isn't comparable to itemless Platinum (or Platinum with the "wrong" item, either).Master Milk said:
I didn't know there was a newer tier list. That makes sense that she's A now, as I was playing today and all of my moves suddenly were doing 200 more damage.
Wait.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
if it's gatlings try to press all the moves in a rythm together. If it's special cancels just do the fallow up super just after you press the other buttonInsertNameHere said:
Master Milk
Member
Oh, you've finally got the game? New blood has embraced the challenge? Beautiful.InsertNameHere said:
Master Milk
Member
Worry not! Take comfort in the fact that you can only improve from now on!
Prototype-03
Member
Fugu said:
Litchi?
Master Milk
Member
Yea, definitely looks like Litchi to me.Prototype-03 said:
I didn't know you weren't afk Fugu. We could have gotten some games earlier.
Prototype-03
Member
Master Milk said:
I don't blame you. He's always AFK. Also you JUST got banned?