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[DY_nasty]

Hakumen's matchup is strongly in Nu's favour but matchups are only relevant when talking about the absolute best of players. It's not entirely impossible for Hakumen to overcome the matchup difference by simply playing smarter; what's stopping Hakumen from waiting for Nu to screw up? He's certainly got to space himself better and he's got less room to make mistakes, but your assertion that any Nu who loses to Hakumen is a terrible Nu is horse shit. It's just a way of using character balance spreadsheets (designed entirely for extremely high-level play) to compensate for a player's inability to deal with a matchup. You're never going to learn much blaming your problems on character imbalance.

When Nu messes up, she's almost well out of the range of all of Hakumen's attacks.

She's got the best keep away, the best zoning, the best range, the easiest combos to execute, and some of the best options when it comes to meter usage too. Any Nu that lost to a Hakumen or Tager did some ridiculously dumb shit multiple times in the match.

 

[Beezy]

Agreed on the Nu vs. Hakumen matchup. He was my main in CT and attempting to get near her with him was extremely frustrating.

 

[QisTopTier]

I'm tempted to just use lambda to make you all bitch and cry in CS about how nothing's changed if not got worse.... but I'm already using hazama :lol

 

[Beth Cyra]

I'm tempted to just use lambda to make you all bitch and cry in CS about how nothing's changed if not got worse.... but I'm already using hazama :lol

Wait I thought Lambda got nerfed pretty hard, not as hard as Rachel but still.

 

[QisTopTier]

Wait I thought Lambda got nerfed pretty hard, not as hard as Rachel but still.

LOL maybe if you suck... let me put it this way, they took out the brain dead stuff all the retards always fell for, kept a lot of stuff that made her good in the first place, then added more on top of it making her harder to use, but now slightly more stupid xD

 

[Beth Cyra]

LOL maybe if you suck :lol

Well I am really terrible, but it wasn't me that came up with it. I just read about how some people got nerfed Lambda and Rachel and Bang/Lichi got buffs.

 

[SolarPowered]

In CT, Hakumen/Arakune may have been even worse. That matchup along with Nu is why I never fully got into the game despite liking it.

Yeah, I can see that. Short dashes mixed with only one air dash/no projectiles does not bode well at all for Hakumen. The poor guy should be able to run at least.

You're the games new easymode. Just mash some more 5a and 2a and stop complaining. :lol

If you want to go there, Rachel is the "worst offender".

Popular opinion probably doesn't agree with you on that one. She is also overwhelming for most people(too many options).

If you ate a 360, all you needed to do was jump. If you ate a throw, then your reaction time isn't fast enough. Honestly, if you're in so close on Tager that he can throw you out of pressure (unexpectedly), you're probably not doing something right.

I'll give you this one. Sometimes I make the jump and my pressure game is steadily improving. I'll be the first to admit that I've still got a few small holes in my approach with Bang.

 

[MarkMan]

Going to Comic-Con?

Be among the first to be able to play with Makoto in the US version of BlazBlue: Continuum Shift!

Mezzanine level Room 17AB will play host to the 9th Annual SDTEKKEN Gaming Room. This year it's EVO-COMIC-CON!

Tournaments for...

BlazBlue: Continuum Shift
TEKKEN 6
Super Street Fighter IV

and more!

Special guests Katsuhiro Harada (TEKKEN), Aksys Games, Capcom, and more...

http://www.aksysgames.com/2010/07/16/be-the-first-to-play-makoto-at-san-diego-comic-con/

 

[FreedomFrisbee]

Wait I thought Lambda got nerfed pretty hard, not as hard as Rachel but still.

She wasn't nerfed hard per-se. They reworked her character like they did Arakune. Probably re-worked her even more than him. Her style of play has changed a lot.

I'm tempted to just use lambda to make you all bitch and cry in CS about how nothing's changed if not got worse.... but I'm already using hazama

No, shes not as good as she was. She plays differently. She may do comparable damage (I don't think she does) but she does it at much larger risk. I'm confident from what I've seen that you won't be making anyone bitch and cry about it. If you want to do that, play Litchi.

 

[Infinite Justice]

She wasn't nerfed hard per-se. They reworked her character like they did Arakune. Probably re-worked her even more than him. Her style of play has changed a lot.



No, shes not as good as she was. She plays differently. She may do comparable damage (I don't think she does) but she does it at much larger risk. I'm confident from what I've seen that you won't be making anyone bitch and cry about it. If you want to do that, play Litchi.

Interesting.

What did they do to Arakune, cuz i like his fighting style but i heard many crying how he was kinda broken.

 

[Fugu]

Now, lets state for the record that I never said I had problems with this match up. I'm just pointing out that there ARE problems. If someone playing Hakumen plays someone of equal skill who is using a Nu, (or for that matter any other top tier character) the Nu user should win. They have easier setups for more damage with less meter. Its just as simple as that.

Hakumen has little use for meterless combos considering how his meter works. Also, your "equal skill" argument doesn't take into account matchup experience. I guarantee a Hakumen player of any capability is more aware of how to deal with a top 3 matchup than a Nu player is of dealing with the second worst character.

In regards to the tier lists, the ones on dustloop take into account all players opinions. Not just people who play it at a high level. Quite literally anyone who has an account can influence the tier lists (This causes a little bit of a ruckus over there every now and again).

Two things. First of all, no, not everyone has an influence. Only correct, verifiable information goes into the making of tier lists, and that information is regarding theory fighter circumstances where characters win based on their potential, not their actual use. Tier lists are a measure of a character's maximum potential, and this is why tier lists are irrelevant to virtually every player ever. Two, the Arcadia tier lists (and others like it) are not public opinion based.

And in regards to fairyland. Meter gain is meaningless if you can't touch her. Nu can do everything on reaction against Hakumen.

How much meter is Nu gaining if they're both standing there doing nothing? How much meter is Hakumen gaining?

There is quite literally no opening for Hakumen to do anything unless the Nu messes up.

The reverse is true. Block strings are free meter unless you mess up. Hell, throwing out a low is a free entrance if the player is smart enough to see it coming.

You might think to IAD over a full screen standing D, but that isn't something the Nu has to do.

You're right. It's one of Nu's many options, just like how IAD is one of Hakumen's many options. One of the major flaws with predicting real matches based on potential is that players don't guess right 100% of the time; if they did, fighting games wouldn't be very interesting.

Nu can just sit there all day and wait for you to move (move in any way at all) and they can capitalize on it.

Hakumen has less options to capitalize but there's nothing preventing him from doing the same thing. In fact, such a game plan may be in Hakumen's favour considering he gets free meter and Nu doesn't.

They just have to wait for you to decide how to get in, and then react to it. If you're beating a Nu with Hakumen it's because they havn't yet realized 'Oh hey, I can just do this'.

Why would you be deciding how to get in from a neutral situation? That doesn't make any sense; of course Nu's going to beat you if you think that you're going to beat her straight up on entry; she's a zoning character. What's preventing Hakumen from doing an empty jump to feel out the Nu player? Or perhaps fooling the Nu player into thinking he's going to make a ground entry to close some distance. Real matches aren't won entirely by character spreadsheets; they're won by careful application and mindgames. When you're really, really good, then you can start worrying about how Nu fundamentally has an easier time.

But hey, if you have some magical way to get around these issues, please let me know.

Use your head.

Popular opinion probably doesn't agree with you on that one. She is also overwhelming for most people(too many options).

The majority of tier lists put Rachel on top, so if you were basing this on who is the most powerful in CT, the answer is Rachel.

When Nu messes up, she's almost well out of the range of all of Hakumen's attacks.

Not necessarily, and what's to stop Hakumen from using her screwup to put himself in a more terrifying position (like right in front of her)?

She's got the best keep away, the best zoning, the best range, the easiest combos to execute, and some of the best options when it comes to meter usage too. Any Nu that lost to a Hakumen or Tager did some ridiculously dumb shit multiple times in the match.

I emplore you to watch Mike-Z play against Nu.

Wait I thought Lambda got nerfed pretty hard, not as hard as Rachel but still.

She didn't get nerfed, she just does less damage now. She still has all of the tools to zone, which is why I suspect that people will still complain about her when CS comes out and they realize that arguing based on matchups is simply a scapegoat for their inability to deal with a certain playstyle.

EDIT: Gravity well is less spammable now I guess and her overheads are slower.

 

[Steaks]

Matchups are relevant when talking about "the best levels of players" because objectively if a character is better, it is easier to be better with them. You can still beat them by being even better than that, but pound for pound, a Nu player will always trounce a Hakumen/Tager of equal skill. A better character is better for a reason, they have some sort of objective quality that is advantageous versus other characters, as long as this quality doesn't require "more skill" than any other character (whether it be execution, pinpoint spacing, or knowledge of ridiculous option selects or something) then you will do better with a top tier at mid level, no questions asked.

For example, Carl is high tier but I highly doubt anyone switching to him will actually win more because he's the hardest character to play, but Nu's execution and knowledge levels are on par with Tager, one of the easiest characters to learn. This is exactly why I was successful with her in an hour, once I knew her combos I just had to apply basic logic (anti-airing, space control, reading the opponents approaches) and I was winning.

For the record I've entered maybe 13/14 BlazBlue tournaments and I've made top 8 in all but 2 of them, with Tager.

 

[Fugu]

Matchups are relevant when talking about "the best levels of players" because objectively if a character is better, it is easier to be better with them. You can still beat them by being even better than that, but pound for pound, a Nu player will always trounce a Hakumen/Tager of equal skill. A better character is better for a reason, they have some sort of objective quality that is advantageous versus other characters, as long as this quality doesn't require "more skill" than any other character (whether it be execution, pinpoint spacing, or knowledge of ridiculous option selects or something) then you will do better with a top tier at mid level, no questions asked.

For example, Carl is high tier but I highly doubt anyone switching to him will actually win more because he's the hardest character to play, but Nu's execution and knowledge levels are on par with Tager, one of the easiest characters to learn. This is exactly why I was successful with her in an hour, once I knew her combos I just had to apply basic logic (anti-airing, space control, reading the opponents approaches) and I was winning.

For the record I've entered maybe 13/14 BlazBlue tournaments and I've made top 8 in all but 2 of them, with Tager.

What? You are talking about two separate things here. Tiers aren't about learning curves, they're about potential. Nu is high up on tier lists not because she's easy to pick up, but because her potential is great. That she's also purportedly "easy" to use is strictly co-incidental. Do you think Rachel is even easier to use? Is there something about Tager that you consider bafflingly impossible? Tier lists take only into consideration the hypothetical potential, which is irrelevant almost all the time.

Your post operates under the assumption that the influence of character differences is linear at all levels of play as long as the players are of equal skill. This assumption is false.

 

[Prototype-03]

Popular opinion probably doesn't agree with you on that one. She is also overwhelming for most people(too many options).

No! Just because someone is "hard" to use, it doesn't give them a free pass. And this is coming from a CT Rachel player. Once you learn her, she's almost unstoppable. There's a reason why she was top 3 in CT.

edit: imo, Rachel is hard to balance just because of her design. She is either gonna be OP or useless unless they do some drastic changes to her.

 

[DY_nasty]

I haven't been in the mood discuss broken-tier in a while... so w/e

Anyways, is there something that I'm just not 'getting' with Tsubaki? I can beat scrubs by just charging up a full 5 then going ham twice a round. But against anyone decent I'll get absolutely no breathing space and end up going for attacks/combos that give me space rather than damage. She's fun to play with and all but you're essentially forced into a certain playstyle against better comp.

Thought she was gonna be more Order-Sol-ish but thats not the case at all unless I'm missing something.

 

[Steaks]

Your post operates under the assumption that the influence of character differences is linear at all levels of play as long as the players are of equal skill. This assumption is false.

Except in. Every. Single. Competitive. Fighter. Any character that doesn't have ridiculous skill requirements generally follows the same tier list. If you put in more time with MSP, Testament, Chun-Li (3s), Rufus (SSF4), etc, a characters strengths and weakness are static things, as long as a player is capable of critical thought and has enough knowledge of the game, they can exploit the same strengths and weaknesses a top player can, just much less proficiently. Matchups are static from mid to high level until you bring in difficulty curve and unless a character is overwhelmingly more difficult than another, a mid level player will always do better with a better character. Period. This has stood the test of time in fighting games forever.

If you wan't an easy example, what happens if you take two mid level players, give them two characters, they are equal with each other. If you buff one of these two characters but keep the difficulty to play them the same, the person who played the now buffed character will do better. Player skill is relevant but character power is in fact, a very real thing. Why do you think Escaping Jail actually mad it past top 8 in any single tournament in BlazBlue:CT? Hint. It wasn't because he was a good player.

I've fought mediocre Rachels and barely won many times as Tager, this is because Rachel rapes my character for free. Do you know what happened to Alzarath once his character got nerfed to oblivion? I was DESTROYING him in sets because his character went from god to grime in one game. He is actually a better player than me and we are not at the top level of play (well, top level Japanese play, which is what tier lists are based off of). He quickly switched to Hakumen and he beats me clean again, like he should have been in the first place.

 

[Prototype-03]

Anyways, is there something that I'm just not 'getting' with Tsubaki? I can beat scrubs by just charging up a full 5 then going ham twice a round. But against anyone decent I'll get absolutely no breathing space and end up going for attacks/combos that give me space rather than damage. She's fun to play with and all but you're essentially forced into a certain playstyle against better comp.

Thought she was gonna be more Order-Sol-ish but thats not the case at all unless I'm missing something.

No, that's the design flaw in Tsubaki. She's a rushdown character that needs to charge (aka: give up pressure). But yeah, she's horrible against the top 3 because they will not give her breathing room to charge.

Also, if they let you charge to 5, they are pretty bad. You shouldn't need more than 2-3 charges until you need to restock anyway.

Not that she's useless... You just gotta play smarter AND mixup a LOT. Her bnb startup (5bb, 2bb) is REALLY predictable, so you need to mix that up with cc so they're not ib'ing.

 

[hikarutilmitt]

No! Just because someone is "hard" to use, it doesn't give them a free pass. And this is coming from a CT Rachel player. Once you learn her, she's almost unstoppable. There's a reason why she was top 3 in CT.

edit: imo, Rachel is hard to balance just because of her design. She is either gonna be OP or useless unless they do some drastic changes to her.

Going from her CT version: reduce the number of lightning rods she can have on screen. Reduce the frog's speed or just remove it entirely so she has one less fucking object available on screen to hit you with. Make it so tossing out a lightning rod will make it not land on the ground if it hits anything (blocked, hit, projectile, whatever). Reduce the severity of her Drive or at least make it recharge a bit slower.

 

[Prototype-03]

Going from her CT version: reduce the number of lightning rods she can have on screen. Reduce the frog's speed or just remove it entirely so she has one less fucking object available on screen to hit you with. Make it so tossing out a lightning rod will make it not land on the ground if it hits anything (blocked, hit, projectile, whatever). Reduce the severity of her Drive or at least make it recharge a bit slower.

BBCS is already out... lobelia's trajectory changes if hit, frog is affected by wind but has a cooldown, pumpkin travels less/less hitstun on block/pumpkin disappears if hit and she has to wait a bit on the ground before wind charges again, BUT charges faster the more stock she has.

 

[hikarutilmitt]

BBCS is already out... lobelia's trajectory changes if hit, frog is affected by wind but has a cooldown, pumpkin travels less/less hitstun on block/pumpkin disappears if hit and she has to wait a bit on the ground before wind charges again, BUT charges faster the more stock she has.

So... why the hell did they nerf her damage? :lo

And it was more because I think those are the only "necessary" changes she needed from her CT version to drop some of her bullshit while keeping her from sucking complete ass.

Kinda like how one of the only things Arakune should really have needed were to not curse on block and maybe make the curse not last as long as it does.

 

[-DarKaoZ-]

So... why the hell did they nerf her damage? :lol

She can still do good damage for what I can see here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nELvZ0vz-dI

Well obviously not as much as her CT counterpart that is.

 

[Lyte Edge]

BBCS is already out... lobelia's trajectory changes if hit, frog is affected by wind but has a cooldown, pumpkin travels less/less hitstun on block/pumpkin disappears if hit and she has to wait a bit on the ground before wind charges again, BUT charges faster the more stock she has.

You play BBCS at an arcade, right? Do people use Rachel often? When I play BBCS online, I almost never run into her. It's like she's the equivalent of how unpopular Sagat became in SSF4.

 

[Tylahedras]

Does this game do the same choose your response style multipath story that the first one does?

 

[akachan ningen]

Does this game do the same choose your response style multipath story that the first one does?

I hope it's more user-friendly. It was ridiculous in the last game.

 

[SolarPowered]

No! Just because someone is "hard" to use, it doesn't give them a free pass. And this is coming from a CT Rachel player. Once you learn her, she's almost unstoppable. There's a reason why she was top 3 in CT.

edit: imo, Rachel is hard to balance just because of her design. She is either gonna be OP or useless unless they do some drastic changes to her.

Oh of course not. When I was at work today I was wondering just how powerful she'd be if they'd made her more user friendly. I'm also aware of the fact that she may have the highest difficulty curve in the game and that there is immense reward waiting for those who manage to master this curve.

 

[LowParry]

If you think Nu is hard to learn, play Taokaka.

 

[xero273]

I hope it's more user-friendly. It was ridiculous in the last game.

you don't have to lose every fight now. I guess that's a good thing

 

[Volcynika]

Bahhhhhh still one more week to go. And I'm moving a week from this Saturday so might be too busy to get online before I am setup there! D:

 

[FreedomFrisbee]

@Fugu (to much much for me to go through and quote everything properly, it's really not that important, especially since we have multiple people telling you you're wrong).

Skimming your post, you mention that block strings can get you closer. No they can't. You forget that at the end of (almost) any move Nu can teleport dash away, negating any advance you might have made, even when shes back in a corner. Most of your arguments fall apart when you factor this in. She can safely retreat at almost any time in almost any situation.

Again, Hakumen's meter gain means nothing if he can't use it. He has to get to her to use it.

If the opponents sit at opposite ends of the screen waiting for something to happen, Hakumen is at a severe disadvantage. Nu can just wait the timer down and chip him out from far away. Even a super counter won't help in this situation, she can just super jump away. I deliberately left that scenario out of my last post because it seemed obvious what the outcome was.

Also, ha at the Mike Z argument. I told that to someone once, and they promptly turned around and showed me several instances of Mike Z losing to Nus. The ones that do show him winning show him capitalizing on stupid mistakes made by Nus. Which kind of proves his point. But thats Tager. Not Hakumen. Completely different argument. Wholly irrelevant really.

Someone asked what changed about Arakune. They made his curse meter work differently. You have to hit someone with a curse move a couple times to curse them now. And then some of the bugs are different. Notably, there's a big piranha plant one.

 

[Volcynika]

Maybe I missed this, but are they doing an official OST release for the game with the new tracks, or has it already released, or what? (Hopefully this is not in the OP and I didn't notice it)

 

[FreedomFrisbee]

I think the CS OST is already out. In japan. Minus the DLC character's songs.

 

[Varion]

I think the CS OST is already out. In japan. Minus the DLC character's songs.

Yeah, all the new themes that were in the arcade version are on the Song Accord CD, but the console only character themes aren't available on CD yet. No announcement of a CD with them on either

 

[Fugu]

I'm going to stop responding to posts and start responding to people because this is getting too clunky.

Kensk: Assume two extremely low level players. One of them picks Hakumen, the other picks Nu. The Nu player doesn't know how to zone with Nu, so Hakumen has the opportunity to get in close all the time and do EZ MODO damage because his C normals do so much. This example illustrates how the tiers themselves change at different levels of play.

In mid-level play, Nu is not an inescapable beast. Nu relies on being an inescapable beast. Once Nu is cornered (or confronted, or hit particularly hard), she's screwed. A mid-level player does not have the capability to utilize every single one of her abilities to their maximum potential because if they did, they simply would not be a mid-level player. This gives the Hakumen player more opportunities to capitalize than he would be allotted in a match pitting the two characters at their maximum potential against each other. Is it likely that that Hakumen player won't know his options or is incapable of capitalizing on them? Yes, but at that point it becomes about his own limitations, and not about the matchup.

You perpetrate that matches between players of "equal skill" come down to tiers. I have to ask you to define what, exactly, "equal skill" means if it doesn't simply refer to two players of absolute maximum skill? How do you have two players of equal skill at anywhere between the point of absolutely no skill and absolute total skill? It boggles the mind.

Finally, I would like you to again view the matchup chart that your argument seems so deftly anchored in. Notice that Nu-Hakumen is often considered to be a 65-35 matchup. That means even based strictly on the characters being played at their maximum potential, Hakumen is expected to win 35% of the time. How do you interpret this to mean that Hakumen has absolutely no options (unless the Nu screws up) in every match? How does that 35% lead you to come to this conclusion, as quoted?

There is quite literally no opening for Hakumen to do anything unless the Nu messes up.

FreedomFrisbee: Until multiple people can prove me wrong, my argument is just as valid as yours.

I mentioned that block strings give Hakumen an advantage (not necessarily in spacing) as long as he doesn't screw up, demonstrating two things:
1. Hakumen exhibits a much higher amount of meter gain than Nu does in all of these presented scenarios because he's blocking (maybe IBing) everything Nu does if he's playing correctly, which brings me to my more important point.
2. We are talking about human players here (mid-level human players at that) so arguing about a character's potential is a total waste of time. You and I are both aware that if both characters are played to their maximum potential, Nu will come out on top approximately 65% of the time. But humans don't play characters to their maximum potential, which is why block strings have more holes than they should, Nu players give openings for opportunistic Hakumen to approach, and tournaments continue to happen, because if players were capable of playing their characters at their maximum potential, this game would be absolutely pointless.

Your "she'll just teleport away" argument relies on the Hakumen player not telegraphing that with, say, a super from all of the meter he's built up (independently not a very smart idea but if the Nu player is expecting to be able to start zoning Haku again, he could get a ch). Or maybe an IAD to keep his pressure relevant. One of the key features of that backdash is that it's not instantaneous and that it's not invulnerable.
The "Hakumen's screwed if he's on the other side of the screen" argument again represents how fallicious arguing from the standpoint of potential, particularly when we're talking about mid-level players. What's stopping Hakumen from IBing everything and using barrier when something might do chip damage? It sounds like then both Hakumen and Nu are on the same level because every time the round's just going to end in a draw. In a real match, a Nu player might get impatient (because he's getting nowhere just performing long-range blockstrings) and try to cross Hakumen up which may result in Hakumen getting an entrance. Or maybe Hakumen doesn't know the block strings and he starts getting hit. Or maybe Nu doesn't know what's unsafe on block and Hakumen capitalizes. Or maybe Nu guesses wrong and eats a super. Or maybe Hakumen whiffs a j.C and he's back to square one again. Lots of things CAN happen in real games.

Mike-Z sure does lose to Nus. He also wins against them. That he can win against such great Nus is evidence that you can, too!

 

[FreedomFrisbee]

@Fugu (who else)

The teleport dash could be done at any point while the Hakumen is blocking, in a forwards or backwards direction. Its entirely safe as long as she does it out of a blocked attack because of hitstun. I don't really know what you're trying to say about supering a teleport dash.

As per barrier and chip damage, barrier runs out. And then Hakumen becomes even more vulnerable.

Also, you're haphazardly arguing things. Saying first that we shouldn't be arguing about maximum potential, and then trying to bring up top players who (arguably) use characters to their maximum potential. You seem to think that I'm talking about mid-level players when I'm clearly not. We could be talking about any level player. My point is that they're players of completely equal capacity (and if you choose to try and devolve the argument into semantics of anything more specific than that I'm not going to follow you there). When the only difference is the characters. Ive stated that before and that's what you're arguing against. Even if you say 'oh, I was saying this' you're still arguing against what I was saying, even if you try to straw man it.

And come on, pulling the prove me wrong card? Tier lists. They prove you wrong. That's all that really needs to be said (elaborating anyways). The worst match up in CT is Carl v Tager. a 70-30 match up. Ive had people say 'It would take an act of god to make Tager win that match up'. You know, I think that means Tager won't win. The 30 comes from the potential that people will make mistakes, the difficulty involved with playing a given character. The Carl player has to know what to do, but then again thats all a fighting game is about. Now when we look at your self described 65-35 Hakumen Nu matchup, and compare it relatively to the Carl Tager matchup, we can easily say that by all means the Nu player should win. If the Nu player loses, they suck.

Oh, and if thats not enough: SBO 2009. 2 Nus, 2 Litchis, Arakune, Rachel, Carl, and Bang. Lets note the absence of Tager and Hakumen. Which alone doesn't really mean much. But then we see 2 Nus. 2 Litchis. With fully 75% of the top 8 being top tier characters.

If you're playing someone who's on the same level as you, you're going to lose. Mike Z beating a Nu with Tager? That doesn't just mean he was better than them, it means he was WAY better than them.

 

[Beezy]

This is pointless. Everyone knows that Calamity Trigger wasn't balanced. I don't know how it is in CS, but the Nu vs. Hakumen matchup was fucked in the last game. No amount of hypothetical shit will make a Hakumen player think otherwise.

 

[DY_nasty]

This is pointless. Everyone knows that Calamity Trigger wasn't balanced. I don't know how it is in CS, but the Nu vs. Hakumen matchup was fucked in the last game. No amount of hypothetical shit will make a Hakumen player think otherwise.

Seriously... if it was as simple as Fugu is implying, then the community wouldn't have taken a vacation until CS' release. There's almost nothing Hakumen can do against Nu aside from block for 60 seconds and hope to back Nu into a corner and then NEVER make a mistake with full meter - oh wait, burst! lulz try again bitch

I hope Tsubaki gets patched up quick. I'm having to start every round with jump+charge :lol

 

[Fugu]

@Fugu (who else)

The teleport dash could be done at any point while the Hakumen is blocking, in a forwards or backwards direction. Its entirely safe as long as she does it out of a blocked attack because of hitstun. I don't really know what you're trying to say about supering a teleport dash.

It's not entirely safe because it's a period of time in which Hakumen isn't attacking and it's definitely not shorter than IB stun.

As per barrier and chip damage, barrier runs out. And then Hakumen becomes even more vulnerable.

IB the swords with no chip damage, barrier the swords with chip damage. All of a sudden your barrier lasts a lot longer. This is such an unrealistic scenario but it's only as unrealistic as Nu guessing right every single time.

Also, you're haphazardly arguing things. Saying first that we shouldn't be arguing about maximum potential, and then trying to bring up top players who (arguably) use characters to their maximum potential.

They certainly do not. If they did, then matches wouldn't be contested; both players would simply select a character and they would consult the matchup chart to see who wins.

You seem to think that I'm talking about mid-level players when I'm clearly not. We could be talking about any level player. My point is that they're players of completely equal capacity (and if you choose to try and devolve the argument into semantics of anything more specific than that I'm not going to follow you there).

Read the part of my last post that was addressed to Kensk. I already addressed this.

When the only difference is the characters. Ive stated that before and that's what you're arguing against. Even if you say 'oh, I was saying this' you're still arguing against what I was saying, even if you try to straw man it.

I've already addressed this too, but...
I'm aware of what you're arguing, and what you're arguing doesn't make sense and assumes a static tier list. Yes, there are matchup problems in places other than the absolute top but there's no such thing as two players of equal skill and there's certainly different matchups at different levels of play.

And come on, pulling the prove me wrong card?

That's not really a card per se, it's more of the basis of all debate ever.

Tier lists. They prove you wrong.

Well, actually, no, I don't dispute that there's a fundamental problem with the Nu - Hakumen matchup. I dispute that this matchup difference bears any relevance on the outcome of most matches.

The worst match up in CT is Carl v Tager. a 70-30 match up.

It's actually an 80-20 matchup.

Ive had people say 'It would take an act of god to make Tager win that match up'. You know, I think that means Tager won't win.

It means he'll win 20% of the time. That's explained pretty clearly.

The 30 comes from the potential that people will make mistakes, the difficulty involved with playing a given character.

The 20*% comes from the fact that Carl's strings have holes and it's possible given a certain play by the Carl player that the Tager player must come out on top given that both players are playing absolutely perfectly and without mistakes. Tier lists are based on the assumption that both players are playing perfectly; they serve to determine the specific advantages of a character over another character if both are played absolutely perfectly. Certainly Tager's playstyle makes it more difficult to play perfectly, but that's irrelevant both to this discussion and to the discussion of (and formation of) tier lists. It is, however, the foundation of why Tagers frequently lose to Carls; in that particular matchup, the Carl player does not necessarily have to play perfectly (or anything close to it) to win. Did the matchup have any influence here? No, because the Tager player could have easily played perfectly to surmount an imperfect Carl. If the Tager player was incapable of defeating the Carl player, it was not the fault of the matchup, but rather the fault of the Tager player's inability to play as close to perfect as necessary to win the match.

The Carl player has to know what to do, but then again thats all a fighting game is about. Now when we look at your self described 65-35 Hakumen Nu matchup, and compare it relatively to the Carl Tager matchup, we can easily say that by all means the Nu player should win. If the Nu player loses, they suck.

I don't understand what you mean by "compare it relatively to the Carl-Tager matchup". I'm also interested to know how you come to the conclusion that all Nu players who lose to Hakumen suck based on this mystery comparison.

Oh, and if thats not enough: SBO 2009. 2 Nus, 2 Litchis, Arakune, Rachel, Carl, and Bang. Lets note the absence of Tager and Hakumen. Which alone doesn't really mean much. But then we see 2 Nus. 2 Litchis. With fully 75% of the top 8 being top tier characters.

This is factually incorrect. Do you know who's right above Hakumen on the CT tier list? Bang. And right above Bang is Litchi. So you've got a B- character and a B character twice. Then you've got Carl, who's an A character. So half of your top 8 is high-mid or lower, and three of eight are in the bottom third of the cast. Not sure about you but that doesn't sound too bad to me.

You using SBO as an argument to defend the notion that BB:CT is imbalanced is made all the more funny by the fact that SBO was won by an Arakune who beat a Nu in the semifinals. Do you know what the Arakune-Nu matchup is? 65-35 in favour of Nu.

EDIT: CT was dropped because CS was "released" on the PC and widespread in arcades by late 2009. Considering the schism between CT and CS, for most players who had reasonable access to CS, there was no point in playing CT.

 

[luka]

I hope it's more user-friendly. It was ridiculous in the last game.

I can attest that story mode is vastly improved and much more straightforward than the last one. If you just want to rush through and clear each character it can be done very easily.

 

[Fugu]

I can attest that story mode is vastly improved and much more straightforward than the last one. If you just want to rush through and clear each character it can be done very easily.

This. I blew through story mode in a few hours and I only had to replay Arakune's.

 

[FreedomFrisbee]

The SBO Bang was Dora. Nuf said.

Rather than turn this into a Metroid Other M thread with tier lists, I'm just gonna stop. It's very clear that Fugu doesn't want to acknowledge what the community already has in regards to CT. You can have fun arguing about how Rachels just aren't trying hard enough when CS comes out.

 

[DY_nasty]

Has there ever been an unblockable as useless as Tsubuki's?

I'm about to abandon her for Mu. Tsubaki is the Makoto of Blazblue.

 

[SolarPowered]

This. I blew through story mode in a few hours and I only had to replay Arakune's.

This is fantastic news. The only story mode I beat 100% was Bang story mode. There was no way that I was going to complete it with everyone with the previous setup.

 

[Papercuts]

I got 100% for all the stories in CT and got nothing but a bunch Japanese dialog clips to show for it. :lol

Is the reward still the same thing for CS?

 

[Fugu]

This is fantastic news. The only story mode I beat 100% was Bang story mode. There was no way that I was going to complete it with everyone with the previous setup.

I should probably clarify that I didn't get 100% on any of the stories; I merely did enough to allow for the completion of story mode for every character and the "true ending".

The SBO Bang was Dora. Nuf said.

Rather than turn this into a Metroid Other M thread with tier lists, I'm just gonna stop. It's very clear that Fugu doesn't want to acknowledge what the community already has in regards to CT. You can have fun arguing about how Rachels just aren't trying hard enough when CS comes out.

I love blanket ending statements that don't at all summarize the argument. My argument was, is, and continues to be that the differences in matchups are never the glass ceiling resulting in a loss but rather that any loss can be attributed to the (in)adequacies of the players involved except in the hypothetical case of two completely perfect players. Any explanation of any tier list for any game ever will substantiate my point that tier lists are explicitly for those who do not make mistakes in any aspect of the game.
When you play the perfect Tager but lose to Carl anyway, then you can blame your loss on the matchup. Until then, you will have to live with the fact that although there exists a matchup difference, it is not what is responsible for your loss.

 

[DY_nasty]

I love blanket ending statements that don't at all summarize the argument. My argument was, is, and continues to be that the differences in matchups are never the glass ceiling resulting in a loss but rather that any loss can be attributed to the (in)adequacies of the players involved except in the hypothetical case of two completely perfect players. Any explanation of any tier list for any game ever will substantiate my point that tier lists are explicitly for those who do not make mistakes in any aspect of the game.
When you play the perfect Tager but lose to Carl anyway, then you can blame your loss on the matchup. Until then, you will have to live with the fact that although there exists a matchup difference, it is not what is responsible for your loss.

dude stop, not only is this a dumb argument about a now obsolete game, but your whole debate is taking a stance that goes against the entire community. if you think you're right, cool, w/e, world is flat...

 

[FreedomFrisbee]

dude stop, not only is this a dumb argument about a now obsolete game, but your whole debate is taking a stance that goes against the entire community. if you think you're right, cool, w/e, world is flat...

I think we should let him keep arguing. See how long he goes.

 

[Fugu]

Actually, I wasn't arguing there. I was just clarifying for someone who might have only read your post. I've got nothing left to say.

Am I completely missing something or did they remove the ability to back out of a ranked match in the lobby (before character picking)? There's a guy online right now with 102 completed games and 45 incomplete games and he's dropped both times I've played him after he's lost the round and I really don't feel like racking up disconnects for no reason.

 

[cnet128]

I hope it's more user-friendly. It was ridiculous in the last game.

I know there have been responses to this already, but just to make things perfectly clear:

Whilst Story Mode in this game works essentially the same as that in the first game, there are numerous modifications to make it simpler to handle. Whilst some battles still need to be lost because they lead to a separate story path, all battle losses other than these no longer count towards completion percentage, and allow you to immediately retry the lost battle. Endings are now more clearly categorized into the trio of true-ending/bad-ending/gag-ending, and reaching the bad ending results in a hilarious chibi-style scene where Kokonoe gives you a hint on how to reach the true ending. Oh, and I think the nasty paths that require Distortion Finishes have been removed. Mostly, at least. Not entirely sure.

 

[luka]

I know there have been responses to this already, but just to make things perfectly clear:

Whilst Story Mode in this game works essentially the same as that in the first game, there are numerous modifications to make it simpler to handle. Whilst some battles still need to be lost because they lead to a separate story path, all battle losses other than these no longer count towards completion percentage, and allow you to immediately retry the lost battle. Endings are now more clearly categorized into the trio of true-ending/bad-ending/gag-ending, and reaching the bad ending results in a hilarious chibi-style scene where Kokonoe gives you a hint on how to reach the true ending. Oh, and I think the nasty paths that require Distortion Finishes have been removed. Mostly, at least. Not entirely sure.

No distortion finishes are required as far as I know, but there was one instance that I failed a path for getting one. Otherwise, getting the true end for each character will never require you to lose, and if you do you now have the option to immediately retry the fight unless it takes you to an alternate/joke ending.

 

[Darkman M]

Damn seems alot of you imported for the nice headstart. I look forward to you all breaking me in.