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BlazBlue: Continuum Shift II |OT| The Sequel Blue Me Away
- Thread starter sixteen-bit
- Start date
Wow, I just saw this horrible Tager go against Jin and couldn't magnetize for his life, promptly ate it.
I love the spectator mode, it makes me feel less shitty in my fighting game prowess. :lol
Also Hakumen killed me in score attack AGAIN. *sigh* ;___; Nerf AI plz, Arc.
I love the spectator mode, it makes me feel less shitty in my fighting game prowess. :lol
Also Hakumen killed me in score attack AGAIN. *sigh* ;___; Nerf AI plz, Arc.
Infinite Justice
Member
TheSeks said:Wow, I just saw this horrible Tager go against Jin and couldn't magnetize for his life, promptly ate it.
I love the spectator mode, it makes me feel less shitty in my fighting game prowess. :lol
Also Hakumen killed me in score attack AGAIN. *sigh* ;___; Nerf AI plz, Arc.
I think its best you stop or you might go insane :lol
SouthernDragon
Member
I just saw the Dacidbro v MikeZ final
Heartbreaking. MikeZ plays a brilliant Tager, but Bang's meter building abilities and FRKZ DD are way too good. Hell, it'd take two combos and Bang has 70 meter and 4 seals set to go. After that, it's like 9-1 Bang's favor v Tager.
Heartbreaking. MikeZ plays a brilliant Tager, but Bang's meter building abilities and FRKZ DD are way too good. Hell, it'd take two combos and Bang has 70 meter and 4 seals set to go. After that, it's like 9-1 Bang's favor v Tager.
Prototype-03
Member
FlightOfHeaven said:
Just the fact that MikeZ goes to finals is amazing. He also went to finals last year in CT against the rachels/nus/arakunes. He's one of the best imo. As soon as Tager is able to get to mid tier, he'll rape everyone.
SolarPowered
Member
Yeah, BB Gaf has to play more. I've been getting kind of rusty.:lolThe Take Out Bandit said:
Also, it all your fault that Valk is skipping around. Luna is going to become even more lolitastic if you keep this up.
Beast Valkenhayn is best Valkenhayn, eh?DY_nasty said:
I still wish he had one or the other of those tools. He would have been perfectly viable for me then, but I can still hold out hope for the Kitteh missiles.
Dacidbro is undoubtedly one of the greatest Bangs I've ever seen. It's a real pleasure to watch this guy at work. I can't say that I disagree on the lopsided nature of the match once Bang has seals and heat, but I just enjoy seeing him and Mike Z going head to head.FlightOfHeaven said:
It reminds me of the fact that I've got a very long way to go until I truly learn how to play Bang. I can't imagine going much further without a stick at this point though.
Edit: I remember reading some conversation on the subject of Tager and tiers. They said that we'd never see a Tager at an A class just because of the nature of grappler fighters. Tager would be absolutely unstoppable if he just moved up to an A class tier. It would be completely unfair and I agree. BB was my real foray into the fighting scene(I've played tons of fighters, but mostly as a casual fan and masher) and I've just begun to understand that certain classes of characters are built in a such a way that it may blur the tier lines more than usual. Tager and his fighting type may be one of those cases.
Prototype-03
Member
SolarPowered said:
Gief was A tier in vanilla SF4. Potemkin was A tier in GGAC. It can happen. Either way, he just needs to be mid tier to be a viable character... One good AA, a way to close in, and you have a viable Tager.
Lostconfused
Member
You are going to trade it in just so you can buy it again later?DY_nasty said:
SolarPowered
Member
I haven't played them enough to know the game's ins and outs, but people seemed absolutely terrified by characters like Sagat and Eddie in those games(I think the only match up worse than Potempkin and Eddie was May vs I-no). No character in BlazBlue will have an advantage against Tager if he were at A class with weapons like 720 and magnetism. Most people on the dustloop side agree that a balanced fighter requires a match up as close to 5-5 as possible, but that wouldn't be fair against a grappler with 360+720+magnetism and massive close range priority(that last one needs some extra work I think). Specials in SF4 could do just as much as Gief's super, but the same might not be true in BB.Prototype-03 said:
Tager is a major exception to the rule when you consider the rest of the cast in BB at the moment. I can agree with you on the idea that Tager only needs a few tweaks here and there, but the idea of a Tager with massive improvements is terrifying to me though.
Just when I thought that I couldn't dislike Reach even more...DY_nasty said:
Infinite Justice
Member
FlightOfHeaven said:
MikeZ is pure awesome and i always love his fights, plus the Tager tips video he did for CT was :lol :lol :lol :lol
SouthernDragon
Member
Infinite Justice said:
Backdash invincible for longer than hangover!
B Tager Buster does true SOVIET DAMAGE
SolarPowered said:
I think the main thing with Tager is that he's a grappler that makes you come to him with magnetism. If they made him too good, he'd not only have a DD that takes off half your life, but also be able to effectively control the entire field.
SolarPowered
Member
I couldn't have said it better myself. He is little different from your standard grappler thanks to magnetism. If the scales tip in his favor even a tiny bit then it all goes to hell. Tager is supposedly a C tier character at the moment and we could go to a number of tournament matches and we'd see that the craziest strategies and gimmicks(fu rin ka zan madness and Ragna gatling ACTIVATE) need to be employed just to keep up with him and most of the characters facing him are A and S class characters.Papercuts said:
If he gets a buff and it's not well thought out then the game goes to hell for everyone else who doesn't main tager(even Carl and Lambda).
Infinite Justice
Member
FlightOfHeaven said:
A Tager buster does puny American damage :lol
So awesome
Zanken said:
Yea i couldn't be bothered relearning stuff every time a new version came out but i had a friend who bitched about it everytime :lol
SolarPowered
Member
I've looked Dora up and I've seen four or five matches, but every single one seems to be a dud. I haven't seen him win one yet and none of the matches looked extremely impressive(I can still appreciate skill when someone loses). I've never heard of Nezu.Zanken said:No disrespect to Dacidbro, but if you haven't look up Nezu or Dora as they are on a whole other level. Entertaining to watch too.
Guess I just have bad luck when it comes to looking for matches on the guy.
I don't know if you play PS3 or 360, but I'm really hitting my limit. I don't want to sound really cocky, but I play pretty well on a good day. My 360 pads thumbstick is also wrecked thanks to all the matches I play.:lolZanken said:
If he's already got massive rewards then you've got to realize that they require risk. The real balance problem at hand with Tager doesn't lie just with Tager's moves, but his character approach in general. I think there is a fundamental imbalance in the ratio between Risk and reward for Tager at the moment. If Aksys can figure out how much risk Tager should have to take(priority and reach) they can begin to tinker with rewards(will he need massive damage 720?). As it stands, Tager cannot just have a tweak in his risk department because his rewards are greater than those of any other character in the game.Zanken said:Half the cast is 'a few tweaks' away from being A tier. That is how tight balancing these games are. Personally I think Tager's risk/reward ratio is very out of whack. Tager has too much trouble gaining and keeping control of the flow of a match. To make up for it he has massive rewards (things like 720). Tager is a popular choice with newer players because the rewards aren't too difficult to get and there are a whole bunch of gimmicks that work well on other new players. You can see it well in the Mike Z/Dacibro match above why these don't work at higher level. Watching Mike keep going for things like pink air grabs and seeing his stuffed 2Cs...
I haven't seen true terror I guess. I have seen BEES though.:lolZanken said:There is a lot of room for Tager improvements. I remember A tier Pot. You haven't known true terror until that guy is standing over you on your wakeup.
Yeah, I can agree with that and the overall pace of the game is the very reason for Tager's low tier and weakness.Zanken said:
Fake edit:
I'm gonna go to sleep now. Dieting and College does not work very well together.:lol
Prototype-03
Member
SolarPowered said:
His risk does NOT outweigh his reward. What's the point of having massive rewards if you can't get in? Like you said, I'd rather have Tager's grapples be nerfed and have a move to let him move in. Pot has the ground pound, the flick for projectiles (though I don't think that's really used much as anti projectiles much), an air grab and an aegis.
Tager has... magnetism gimmicks. Keep in mind that once he gets in, it's not just the grapples that are strong... His blockstrings are actually really REALLY good. Mixed in with tech traps, he's dangerous. It's just that... there's just no real way for him to get in.
:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lolPrototype-03 said:
Tager has the worst normal moveset of a grappler in the universe. Sorry. He has no anti-jump, garbage frame advantage and too many holes in his pressure without IB, with it, you can pretty much mash whatever your favorite button is.
Tager is fundamentally a horrible character, he's just an almost viable gimmick instead.
Nah, IB destroys tager. His moves are all easy to see coming and don't really lock the person down once they get that timing down. AC is only really good as an AA if you yomi it, but that is always a huge risk. 2C is slow as fuck and 2A is passable, but he still relies on gimmicks too much when he actually gets in.
CS Tager, I think, got improved in the fact that he gets magnetism off of anything. 5A especially, since you can do 5B > 3C > 5B > 4D, etc. Gadget Finger is a pretty bad idea in a lot of matches, but Gadget RC opens up a lot of possiblities...though, with him, they're all gimmicks. He has some really dirty shit like GF RC 5D > 360B the moment they tech out of 5D hitstun, or GF RC 6A > 2C reset, but that stuff doesn't work continuously. If the loketest thing is true, 6A should help him a bit...at worst it can hopefully be a dependable AA for him.
But reading through a lot of things on dustloop for what people want, most people just keep wanting to give him more gimmicks which won't actually help him grow as a character. Or they say "nerf 720 damage but increase overall damage" which also won't help him at all, he still would have the same problems he always did. It'd be like balancing bang by making his combos do 50% of what they do now, but doubling his life and nails. He still would be bang, he still would have the insane pressure/mixup, and he'd still molest the cast.
CS Tager, I think, got improved in the fact that he gets magnetism off of anything. 5A especially, since you can do 5B > 3C > 5B > 4D, etc. Gadget Finger is a pretty bad idea in a lot of matches, but Gadget RC opens up a lot of possiblities...though, with him, they're all gimmicks. He has some really dirty shit like GF RC 5D > 360B the moment they tech out of 5D hitstun, or GF RC 6A > 2C reset, but that stuff doesn't work continuously. If the loketest thing is true, 6A should help him a bit...at worst it can hopefully be a dependable AA for him.
But reading through a lot of things on dustloop for what people want, most people just keep wanting to give him more gimmicks which won't actually help him grow as a character. Or they say "nerf 720 damage but increase overall damage" which also won't help him at all, he still would have the same problems he always did. It'd be like balancing bang by making his combos do 50% of what they do now, but doubling his life and nails. He still would be bang, he still would have the insane pressure/mixup, and he'd still molest the cast.
It's hard to be in the corner vs a good Tager when I'm the best one in my area. Tager still is a terrible grappler with no fundamental strengths, sorry.DY_nasty said:
I'll give you a protip: IB then hit up-back and barrier guard. Do you know how Tager has to beat that? By doing collider. Do you know what happens if you block and he does collider? he dies.
That's Tager's actual mixup game unless he knocks you down and it's in a corner.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Here is the funny part, all potemkin is, is a set of gimicks that work good together and guess what he's A tier. Tagers main gimmick isn't his magnetism it's how freaking retarded his reset game is. The magnetism just helps that. Honestly, if he had Pots fullscreen knock down or fullscreen dash he would be instant S tier. As he is now even if he is rated low on tiers he's honestly not that shitty. I consider him close to how CT Bang was and if you think that's shitty well.... yeah no
Oh and IB fucks every character over not just tager stop being whiny. Want proof? Look at hazama vs anyone one IB and the entire match is in his favor
Oh and IB fucks every character over not just tager stop being whiny. Want proof? Look at hazama vs anyone one IB and the entire match is in his favor
SolarPowered
Member
If his risk didn't outweigh his reward then he wouldn't be at such a disadvantage against most of the BB cast. The proof is in his tier and the fact that Tager has such a hard time at the very highest levels of play(Mike Z was pulling some cool stuff, but none of it could stick because of the nature of the combos). I'm glad that we agree on the idea of a Tager with better weapons to close the gap versus a Tager with massive rewards(720) to rely on. The next subject would be his weapons when he is on the inside. I'm in disagreement with you on that one. I think his normals are very weak against most of the cast, but his tech traps are deadly(glad we agree on this as well).Prototype-03 said:
I wouldn't be that harsh, but yeah. He doesn't really have many weapons that allow him to close the gap when he needs it. You can avoid almost all of the dangerous combos by playing smart. You can avoid getting hurt by Tager even when you're in the corner. I don't think I've ever been pressured by a Tager's normals in the corner. I'm only wary of getting grabbed.kensk said:
If you actually think about the matchups you begin to realize just how bad Tager's normals really are. Would you rather be in corner against Rachel(without damage nerf!)? Ragna? Litchi? Bang? Haku-men? Carl? Lambda?DY_nasty said:
When you think about that list on top you realize that Tager's bad normal pressure is only masked by the fear of magnetism+360/720. The only character that Tager actually has a real advantage against in terms of normals is Noel...because she probably has the worst normals in the game(She has almost nothing, but drive spam tactics at her disposal for real damage....thanks to aksys).
This is good stuff. Most people can't look at their character objectively, but this is pretty honest. I honestly can't be sure of what else they could add aside from 6A to improve him, but nerfing damage or health isn't going to change the ratio one bit. I look forward to seeing a new and improved Tager now that I've gotten past the stage where I shit my pants if I'm going to play him.:lolPapercuts said:
Prototype-03
Member
SolarPowered said:
yeah... You're reading it incorrectly... I'm saying that his risks are far worse than his rewards. His blockstrings, especially for a grappler, are actually really good, especially with magnetism. I don't see the need for Tager's blockstrings to be the best one in the game since he's about resets and heavy damage at this point. Hell, he has better blockstrings than Tsubaki, and she's pure rushdown.
So for what he needs to be doing, his blockstrings are REALLY good.
Lostconfused
Member
Valkenhayn needs to be out now. So I can stop being frustrated about picking a new character.
SolarPowered
Member
Okay, I get read you loud and clear now. I suppose I've always felt that his blockstrings and normals are weak because I've never had to deal with heavy pressure from Tager myself. I suppose that I've never run into Tagers who apply that kind of pressure so I'm kind talking to myself here.Prototype-03 said:
If his strings and normals are actually good and he already has great resets/damage then what exactly is keeping Tager at the bottom of the barrel(In detail if you don't mind)? What would you buff or nerf? It wouldn't be the resets or the damage...
Fake edit: I'm glad that I'm finally on the same page here. All the hunger was getting to my head and I wasn't sure if I'd be able to talk on this subject without sounding like an idiot.:lol
Tager's mobility is the issue with him. He can't get close if people know to keep their distance and make sure he stays away from them to where they can't magnetize and grab.
If they tweak him to be slightly faster in closing the gap (or at least give him a move to close said gaps), that'd be alright... I guess.
The only thing I want tweaked on Tager is his "WHOOOOO--BOOM" Distro Drive (the 720, I guess?).
Seriously, even if you have the life lead, all Tager has to do if he has 50% heat is grab you with that command and the round is over. It's stupid. AFAIK, no other character has a Distro Drive that is as insane in damage as that.
Tomorrow, isn't it? I just wish him and Platinum would be out already. :|
If they tweak him to be slightly faster in closing the gap (or at least give him a move to close said gaps), that'd be alright... I guess.
The only thing I want tweaked on Tager is his "WHOOOOO--BOOM" Distro Drive (the 720, I guess?).
Seriously, even if you have the life lead, all Tager has to do if he has 50% heat is grab you with that command and the round is over. It's stupid. AFAIK, no other character has a Distro Drive that is as insane in damage as that.
</Newbie whining about Tager>
Lostconfused said:
Tomorrow, isn't it? I just wish him and Platinum would be out already. :|
SouthernDragon
Member
Can anyone recommend a Potemkin to watch? I'd like to see this supposed A Tier in action.
Just recently found out that a patch and plans to nerf Bang and Litchi are underway, time to pickup BBCS!
After reading the patch notes (Jin buff) and watching this Taiwan Jin dude on Youtube, I think I know who my main is gonna be for CS lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t4qsfKe9L0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqInW6-8XMQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlR19Sea06Y&p=0D0E54CDF2EC9480&index=3
After reading the patch notes (Jin buff) and watching this Taiwan Jin dude on Youtube, I think I know who my main is gonna be for CS lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t4qsfKe9L0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqInW6-8XMQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlR19Sea06Y&p=0D0E54CDF2EC9480&index=3
Prototype-03
Member
FlightOfHeaven said:
MikeZ... keep in mind Potemkin was only A tier in GGAC
Watch FAB, he's the best Potemkin in the world. Haaken(ハーケンFlightOfHeaven said:
/Akira(カヰン are also good. My personal favorite is Satoshi (サトシ
due to his playstyle.Make sure you watch Accent Core matches by the way, Potemkin isn't too good in other games.
Lostconfused
Member
Man that Ragna just isn't any good. Sure I have no place to talk but really, whiffing belial edge like that or not following up infernal divider with anything, at all.Einherjar said:
akachan ningen
Member
he lives up to his name, madao. :3Lostconfused said:
To throw my hat in the general direction of Tager, I would say that the reason he's so bad is simply because his entire game plan relies on your opponent screwing up. He doesn't have any way to force an opponent into pressure unless they put themselves there. And I don't really know how to fix that.
SolarPowered
Member
Potemkin offers TRUE SOVIET DAMAGE.
FAB:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX5gTZWm7KM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twbH5fNQUNA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAUAmJITgj8&feature=related
Satoshi, Kawin, FAB:
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=JWDnggD9ZkM&feature=related
Haaken:
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=9h67RLWWjow&feature=related
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=S2Tu5AiqW2g&feature=related
:lol :lol :lol
Edit:
Was reading through dustloop and even Mike Z would rather have combo Tager with combo damage >40%.
:lol
FAB:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX5gTZWm7KM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twbH5fNQUNA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAUAmJITgj8&feature=related
Satoshi, Kawin, FAB:
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=JWDnggD9ZkM&feature=related
Haaken:
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=9h67RLWWjow&feature=related
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=S2Tu5AiqW2g&feature=related
The disadvantage was not that bad.Einherjar said:
:lol :lol :lol
Edit:
Was reading through dustloop and even Mike Z would rather have combo Tager with combo damage >40%.
:lol
Prototype-03
Member
SolarPowered said:
Dacid is actually a really cool guy too. Played with him a bunch of times at AI. He is certainly one of the better Bangs around and is one of the more involved people in the BB scene.
edit: he destroyed me =(
For the record if you're gonna watch FAB matches yall have to understand the guy is a fucking monster. He's not only the best Potemkin he's easily one of the top 10 players in the world at the game. He could go toe to toe with Ogawa (the best Eddie in Japan) in the Reload days when the matchup was 2-8 Eddie's favor. Dude's amazing and makes Potemkin look like he's SSS+ tier.SolarPowered said:Potemkin offers TRUE SOVIET DAMAGE.
FAB:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX5gTZWm7KM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twbH5fNQUNA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAUAmJITgj8&feature=related
Satoshi, Kawin, FAB:
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=JWDnggD9ZkM&feature=related
Haaken:
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=9h67RLWWjow&feature=related
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=S2Tu5AiqW2g&feature=related
The disadvantage was not that bad.
:lol :lol :lol
Edit:
Was reading through dustloop and even Mike Z would rather have combo Tager with combo damage >40%.
:lol
SolarPowered
Member
I wouldn't be surprised if most on Gaf couldn't keep up with him. I can't think of anyone here who is THAT big on the fighting scene.Prototype-03 said:
I'm not surprised by this one bit. The guy seemed like he was in perfect control no matter how bad it looked. If he can actually keep up with such a bad match up like Eddie then he is probably on his own level. I actually can't wait to see him and Ogawa go toe to toe later on.kensk said:
I'm going to catch some quick shut eye, so the videos can wait until tommorow.
sixteen-bit
Member
neat multi-character combo exhibition:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm_ak90UMmY
only tangentially related, but a breakdown of qualifying characters at SBO for various fightans:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-1qlkGDNl4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm_ak90UMmY
only tangentially related, but a breakdown of qualifying characters at SBO for various fightans:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-1qlkGDNl4
Gah, why can I perform Noel's Astral? I know I'm putting the command in right, but no dice.
Edit: Nevermind, I'm an idiot. Just landed it. Forget that Astrals want 35% HP left. :/
That said, I can't pull Lambada's 632146D distro drive off for the life of me. Ugh. :/
Edit: Nevermind, I'm an idiot. Just landed it. Forget that Astrals want 35% HP left. :/
That said, I can't pull Lambada's 632146D distro drive off for the life of me. Ugh. :/
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
"teh-moe" is a sore loser and couldn't let me have my "win one ranked match" achievement/trophy. SMH.
Facing left: Lambada rush 214C->214C->214C->6CCCCCCCC2C->214C->6CCCCCC->214214D (BLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAM)6CCCCCC WIN
repeat again.
Winner Lambad--
"Your opponent has disconnected."
Wow, as if the SF4 ragequit community wasn't bad enough, I deal with it in ranked BB matches now. :lol
"teh-moe" is a sore loser and couldn't let me have my "win one ranked match" achievement/trophy. SMH.
Facing left: Lambada rush 214C->214C->214C->6CCCCCCCC2C->214C->6CCCCCC->214214D (BLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAM)6CCCCCC WIN
repeat again.
Winner Lambad--
"Your opponent has disconnected."
Wow, as if the SF4 ragequit community wasn't bad enough, I deal with it in ranked BB matches now. :lol