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[Gek54]

Cockpit view is pointless and a waste of recources. Research show less than 10% use this viewpoint anyway.

I believe this is true becuase most games have a shitty cockpit view where camera is positioned to far back in the car and there are way too many blindspots. WRC3/4 had a superb cockpitview.

Now this is a true perspective.

VS. this crap:

Which is probably closer to what we will see in PGR3 otherwise all that detail would have gone to waste.

Hopefully there is more than one cockpitview with one being much closer to the WRC3 style.

 

[urk]

Is this game 60fps, d00ds?

 

[HokieJoe]

and when you are driving at night, you will see the interior change, some small interior lights for example that are switched on etc. Everything that is in the car in real life, is in the game version as well, fully functioning. Sounds cool I think.

Too effing cool.

Also the user friendly design of it all, Gotham TV and such. Everything is handed on a silver plate to the gamer. The game tells you about special events you might wanne tune in on, or even be a part of yourself. So you don't have to look for that information yourself. And that applies for everything else too ... Really can't wait to participate in the Belgian PGR 3 online tournament

Man, I'm stoked for this game!

BTW, thanks to everyone for getting us the updates and impressions.

 

[HokieJoe]

I believe this is true becuase most games have a shitty cockpit view where camera is positioned to far back in the car and there are way too many blindspots. WRC3/4 had a superb cockpitview.

Now this is a true perspective.

VS. this crap:

Which is probably closer to what we will see in PGR3 otherwise all that detail would have gone to waste.

Hopefully there is more than one cockpitview with one being much closer to the WRC3 style.

Yeah, I never liked NR's cockpit view.

 

[Pimpwerx]

This shown already?

Brooklyn Bridge? BROOKLYN!!! PEACE.

 

[Particle Physicist]

I believe this is true becuase most games have a shitty cockpit view where camera is positioned to far back in the car and there are way too many blindspots. WRC3/4 had a superb cockpitview.

Now this is a true perspective.

you must drive with your seat way up against the steering wheel and your head against the glass if you think thats true perspective.

 

[VNZ]

Wow. That would be the Manhattan Bridge, but is sure looks stunning. Those reflections will look amazing... Provided they run at 60fps.

Perhaps because they wanted to actually concentrate on finishing the game rather than wasting time diverting resources to get the code running on a retail xbox360 that is only gonna be shown behind closed doors anyway.

Finishing the game on an old beta kit as opposed to the final hardware sounds like a great plan indeed.

 

[CosmicGroinPull]

Shit, that Enzo is looking good. Is it in realtime? Doesn't look like the latest shots I've seen. Damn, if GT5 doesn't have Gallardos I'm going multiplatform.



EDIT: Wow, realtime. Very nice.

 

[Gek54]

you must drive with your seat way up against the steering wheel and your head against the glass if you think thats true perspective.

You must sit two inches away from your TV. Unless you have some kind of Imax screen then you shouldnt be able to see the rest of your cockpit given the framing of your monitor/tv.

If you want to test it out, sit infront of your TV and make a frame with your hands around the edges of your TV now keep your hands in this position and walk outside and sit in your car and tell me everything you see inside your frame. You should barely be able to see any solid part of your car in this frame.

 

[Particle Physicist]

You must sit two inches away from your TV. Unless you have some kind of Imax screen then you shouldnt be able to see the rest of your cockpit given the framing of your monitor/tv.

If you want to test it out, sit infront of your TV and make a frame with your hands around the edges of your TV now keep your hands in this position and walk outside and sit in your car and tell me everything you see inside your frame. You should barely be able to see any solid part of your car in this frame.

the tv is supposed to show the view from your virtual head. FPS are messed up as well. their perspective is wrong!!!


are you saying devs should zoom in the perspective according to how far they believe you sit from your tv?? also, not all tvs are the same size.

 

[op_ivy]

The video was encoded to 60fps but the actual action was NOT 60fps, it was most likely 30fps or less but no way 60fps as you could tell by the motion. I mentioned this in the other thread.

ok, i know my eyes arent as sharp as others here at gaf... i can cleary see the difference between 60fps and 30fps though.

you say that video was 30fps, but encoded at 60 fps? then why does the majority of it DEFINITELY look as smooth as 60fps, while a few scenes look like 30 fps?

 

[op_ivy]

Go back and ask whether the original REAL-TIME driving feature from MSR will return in the game. That was awesome in MSR.

i seriously HATED that about the original. due to a fairly set schedule, i usually play games at the same time each day. it was quite a pain in the ass to always race tokyo at night. i like a little variety

 

[op_ivy]

I believe this is true becuase most games have a shitty cockpit view where camera is positioned to far back in the car and there are way too many blindspots. WRC3/4 had a superb cockpitview.

Now this is a true perspective.

VS. this crap:

Which is probably closer to what we will see in PGR3 otherwise all that detail would have gone to waste.

Hopefully there is more than one cockpitview with one being much closer to the WRC3 style.

fyi, blim said that the cockpit cam was more like the wrc pic you posted in his impressions of the demonstration.

 

[newsguy]

fyi, blim said that the cockpit cam was more like the wrc pic you posted in his impressions of the demonstration.

That's right, he said unless you use the free look system you can't see the gauges

 

[xexex]

it's really very simple:

If PGR3 is 60 frames per second, I will buy it for $49.99 or $59.99

If PGR3 is ~25 ~30 or ~35 frames per second, I will rent it for a couple of bucks, therefore Bizzare and Microsoft WON'T see a dime of my money as far as PGR3 is concerned

 

[HokieJoe]

it's really very simple:

If PGR3 is 60 frames per second, I will buy it for $49.99 or $59.99

If PGR3 is ~25 ~30 or ~35 frames per second, I will rent it for a couple of bucks, therefore Bizzare and Microsoft WON'T see a dime of my money as far as PGR3 is concerned

Hehe, I'm good to go as long as it's (> or =) 30fps.

 

[Gek54]

the tv is supposed to show the view from your virtual head. FPS are messed up as well. their perspective is wrong!!!


are you saying devs should zoom in the perspective according to how far they believe you sit from your tv?? also, not all tvs are the same size.

They are not zooming, if you put the camera where the Drivers head would be your view would be like that of WRC3. FPS are also accurate becuase the camera is where the character's head would be.

The GT games put the camera where the drivers head would be and to the center but the interior of the car is not visible. Being able to see more of the road on your screen gives the player a better feel of the speed and surroundings. When your senses are limited, this is much preffered by most players..

 

[op_ivy]

nice little comparision i'd say. cant wait to see a final, in-game render of the cars interior.

 

[isamu]

What I dont get is why they even bothered showing off a 10-15fps build on old hardware. How are you even able to drive at that rate?

Setting the bar low.

That is EXACTLY what I was about to type. There is NO sensible reason why they showed a build running at such a shitty framerate. How could you even make a fair and cohesive judgement on the graphics and sense of speed, when the whole thing moved at 15fps? A build, no matter how early, with that kind of frame rate should just be kept under wraps and not shown anywhere.


Oh and regarding the cockpit view:

I'm sorry but am I the only one that hates interior cockpit views and much prefer the bumper-cam view? The bumper cam view provides such a much better sense of speed, not to mention the cockpit view's interior uses up too much of the screen and you see very little of the road. I will stick strictly with the bumper cam view TYVM.

 

[dorio]

nice little comparision i'd say. cant wait to see a final, in-game render of the cars interior.

What the hell? Where did you get that pic?

 

[isamu]

Locked, and it wont be any more unless the developer says otherwise. Pretty disappointing but when you hear Full Auto Developers and Test Drive developers saying 60 fps is locked and Bizarre sayings its not confirmed, that means its 30 fps. Thats what im expecting from Bizarre frankly

you know whats gonna be locked..... your thread!

just to argue (and so you dont confuse others), bizarre has said time and time again, they are aiming for 60fps. they sound quite confident they'll achieve this, but the game is not done, so they wont say 100% for sure.

op-ivy...I'm sorry but I'm gonna hafta agree with my man hahamamadas here. The game is only a three months away, and yet Bizzarre has still not made any official statement saying it's gonna be a rock solid 60fps....that is VERY worrysome!!! I refuse to believe a developer does not yet know whether their game will run at a rock solid 60fps three months in advance of its release. There is definitely something wrong here and quite frankly it doesn't look good IMHO.

You can give me all the AA/AS, bump-mapping, trilinear filtering, hi-res mumbo jumbo you want....but when everything is moving at a sorry 30fps, it just doesn't matter.

-1 sale for me if it aint 60fps...Ridge Racer 6 here I come.

 

[op_ivy]

What the hell? Where did you get that pic?

:lol the one on the left is a real picture... someone at the bizarre boards found it, i just slapped them side by side and cropped them similarly. it will be interesting to see how the interior shots in pgr3 look when in final form, as the one on the right looks stunning, but not properly lit (not to menion the wire-frame overlay).

isamu, i dont know why your quoting me and another guy from another forum here at gaf. if you want my response, read it there. besides, its a bit out of place here without the rest of the topic

???

 

[Striek]

But it already looked so incredible! This was running on the same Tokyo track as shown in the latest trailer, and except for the numerous visual bugs and the very low resolution textures of this debug build, it looked exactly the same. Only this time it was playable!

So low framerate with low-res textures on a kit thats meant to be considerably closer to 100% than the alpha kits? That doesn't sound promising at all.
Whats been shown all along? 'Target' visuals ala PS3? This game has a lot to live up to, its one of a minority that show the X360 is a capable machine.

And if this is because its a debug build - which I'm not sure how why that would affect texture resolutions/framerate - how did it look exactly the same? Same car models and city structure?

I think this is arguably the most awaited X360 title, and if they deliver the visuals they have been showing (outside of a 'photo mode' type scenario) then kudos, I'm sure it will be a hit

Ps; Why would they show an old build?

 

[isamu]

isamu, i dont know why your quoting me and another guy from another forum here at gaf. if you want my response, read it there. besides, its a bit out of place here without the rest of the topic

???

I know....but you know how I always want to get some feedback from the GAF crowd on the comments regardless

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Ps; Why would they show an old build?

Probably because taking the still-limited supply of current beta kits out of the office for a ~5 day spin, not being productively used at a B-class event is probably not a priority.

 

[op_ivy]

Ps; Why would they show an old build?

"Posted By Ben on 18.08.05
What do I say to that? Well, looking around the office right now there are plenty of dev kits running WAY above 15fps. The article you mention does state that this was on an old dev kit, running an old build."

i think the word is, MS basically told them they had to have something to show behind closed doors, somewhat last minute... and what mighthedgehog said makes perfect sense. who knows, the fact is, it seems true, and builds in the office are running "WAY" faster

 

[Stinkles]

Jesus. Or maybe, just maybe, it's like most games in development - you break things to test other things and you hardly ever end up with a stable build til' the very end. It was behind closed doors with caveats - and the haters as always choose to ignore the caveats.

Nobody builds a game with smooth-frame-for journalist milestones in mind.

A game I worked on a long time ago, was running at about 15 fps til the last month of dev - and that was built into the plan. We knew where the rest of the performance was coming from. IT'S NORMAL.

Unless you're a hater, and then it's some fucked up mistake/conspiracy.

 

[WHOAguitarninja]

I know....but you know how I always want to get some feedback from the GAF crowd on the comments regardless

What bizarre is saying is the exact same thing as whta DICE was saying before RSC2 was out. RSC2 was 60fps.

Bizarre is a good developer. If they didn't think they could hit 60fps, they wouldn't be saying they could.

And to the poster saying the video was only 30fps, go watch again. Only the first scene with the ferrari was 30fps, the rest were 60. I don't know why only one was 30.

 

[op_ivy]

What bizarre is saying is the exact same thing as whta DICE was saying before RSC2 was out. RSC2 was 60fps.

Bizarre is a good developer. If they didn't think they could hit 60fps, they wouldn't be saying they could.

And to the poster saying the video was only 30fps, go watch again. Only the first scene with the ferrari was 30fps, the rest were 60. I don't know why only one was 30.

the crowd shot was 30 as well.

and thanks for the post stinkles

 

[Blimblim]

I can't believe you people are still bitching about the FPS in this short demo. All Bizarre wanted to show was some feature of the game and mostly how it would look. NOT how it would play.
This was a non optimized debug build, the kind of build they use internally to quickly test a new feature. This was not an optimized milestone build developers do every few months to show off the game to the publisher so they know everything is going fine. The building textures were all in very low resolution (Ben mentionned this in an old Bizarre studio update), the framerate was awful, there were visual bugs everywhere, but it had features they wanted to show us. We could see the spectators, we could see the cockpit view and lots of stuff. And this is what matters when you show a game to journalists.
The first PGR1 versions shown to journalists were even worse than what we saw running yesterday, and the final game turned out just fine. And the time table was about the same AFAIK.

 

[GeoNeo]

How many years have you been posting on GAF, Blim? You really think the reaction to your impressions is a surprise? To tell the truth I don't understand why you would point out the FPS of the build you had played, since it was only shown to show off some features of the game. One might even say you are partly to blame for the reaction your impressions have generated.

 

[Blimblim]

How many years have you been posting on GAF, Blim? You really think the reaction to your impressions is a surprise? To tell the truth I don't understand why you would point out the FPS of the build you had played, since it was only shown to show off some features of the game. One might even say you are party to blame for the reaction your impressions have generated.

I could have simply told "the framerate needed some work" or something like that, but I don't like to refrain from posting what I saw of a game. I also did not want someone else who was at the presentation to say more details about the framerate, and have people here start accusing me of not saying the whole truth or something.
But mostly I also wanted to point that despite the really bad framerate, the sense of speed was already there thanks to the motion blur.

 

[FightyF]

Some people don't have a clue when it comes to videogames.

Especially when it comes to graphics...most of them are non-Xbox owners, which explains a lot.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I could have simply told "the framerate needed some work" or something like that, but I don't like to refrain from posting what I saw of a game. I also did not want someone else who was at the presentation to say more details about the framerate, and have people here start accusing me of not saying the whole truth or something.
But mostly I also wanted to point that despite the really bad framerate, the sense of speed was already there thanks to the motion blur.

blim, there were guys who said the lighting and textures sucked on one of the pics Bizzare posted in a weekly update a month or so back. Then it turned out to be an actual photograph for reference purposes, and they started arguing about how the camera used to take the picture was crappy. They'll tear anything apart.

Your posts rock, your site rocks, the whiners around here are just plain sad. Keep it up.

 

[GeoNeo]

I could have simply told "the framerate needed some work" or something like that, but I don't like to refrain from posting what I saw of a game. I also did not want someone else who was at the presentation to say more details about the framerate, and have people here start accusing me of not saying the whole truth or something.
But mostly I also wanted to point that despite the really bad framerate, the sense of speed was already there thanks to the motion blur.

I can understand that you did not want to hold back on details like FPS, but you have to then accept that people will "bitch" about this aspect of the game, even though these builds maybe old.

 

[sangreal]

Behind closed-doors press demos always have bad framerates and they always have other retarded shit going on. The NBA2k6 E3 demo had naked players because they hadn't finished the jersey physics. Yet without failure people latch onto the framerate of these demos despite the framerate being fixed before release time and time again. The demo could've been 60fps and people would just latch onto the low-res textures and talk about how at full graphics it'll be 30fps. I don't know why they bother with these presentations

 

[AndreasNystrom]

I dont understand this.. the Xbox 360 will be released soon, but still everyone is using old beta hardware?.

and shouldnt they betatest the final hardware also?.. if its not as the pre-final hardware.

 

[Gek54]

I was under the impresion Blim visited Bizzare's office. Understandable that the rest of the team wouldnt want to spare a day without their latest dev systems.

 

[Blimblim]

I was under the impresion Blim visited Bizzare's office. Understandable that the rest of the team wouldnt want to spare a day without their latest dev systems.

It was of course at the Game Convention, so yes it explains why they would not give away some of their brand new beta kits with hardware very close to final, even for a few days. These were shipped quite recently so I guess not that much are available for the moment. Anyone care to give more informations about this new kit revision? Element?

 

[mrklaw]

If we are all such grown-ups, then why couldn't we simply ignore those posts complaining about the frame rate? Because we can't resist an argument any more than the moaners can resist moaning.

 

[BlackClouds]

Seems like everybody needs an education on how things work then. There's rampant ignorance throughout the whole hardcore gaming community. I personally still doubt the game will get to 60fps, and that's on bizarre's track record. They push these systems very hard.

 

[xexex]

Seems like everybody needs an education on how things work then. There's rampant ignorance throughout the whole hardcore gaming community. I personally still doubt the game will get to 60fps, and that's on bizarre's track record. They push these systems very hard.

agreed.

MSR - Dreamcast - ~30fps
PGR - Xbox - ~60fps (reflections 30fps)
PGR2 - Xbox - ~30fps
PGR3 - Xbox 360 ???? leaning toward ~30fps but im hoping for 60fps

 

[AB 101]

Probably because taking the still-limited supply of current beta kits out of the office for a ~5 day spin, not being productively used at a B-class event is probably not a priority.

One would think Bizzare would be on of the ones with early dibs on beta systems.