JohnnyFootball
GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
Yeah, the tombstone as a shield is the key. Make damn sure that you take them out quickly once they get to the final 10% of their health.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Bloodborne |OT++++| Now with Trusty Patches
- Thread starter Robot Pants
- Start date
Yeah, the tombstone as a shield is the key. Make damn sure that you take them out quickly once they get to the final 10% of their health.
DirgeExtinction
Member
JadedWriter
Member
Why do people talk shit about the Threaded Cane? I just owned house on Shadow of Yarnham with the fucking thing. Granted I'm level 63 with 30 points in skill with a +6 cane, but god damn this thing is no joke.
JohnnyFootball
GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
People have their own play styles and preferences. The cane is good when you need quick damage, but due to its low damage where you need to make a hard strike, it can lengthen battles by quite a bit.
KittenMaster
Member
Threaded Cane is a weapon that gets better later in the game damage wise, but it is amazing at controlling mobs the entire game.
JadedWriter
Member
This fight didn't take that long, but I see what you mean. Cane is good for in and out hits, but it doesn't stagger or hit ass hard as the axe I'm going to assume. I use Ludwigs sword for bigger targets and since it's scales pretty decently with the skill stat I still do a decent amount of damage with it. I'm trying to also incorporate the blades of mercy into my runs as well, but it hasn't exactly clicked yet for me.
It's been my main weapon for most of the game with LHB being my big hitter for bigger enemies. I used the saw spear briefly in the game, but it scales like shit compared to the threaded cane so I just ditched it when I got LHB. I've done a good amount of damage with that pimp cane and I like it's whip form, it's great for distance and crowd control.
DirgeExtinction
Member
I'm tempted to try out the Cane, but my Skill stat is pretty low.
Fimbulvetr
Member
The stuff that you're proposing is interesting, but ultimately I doubt it would be a great solution to the problems with ranged parrying. Ranged parrying allows players to avoid risk, so it naturally encourages a more lax playstyle, where players back out of melee range. The best idea for balancing this out I can think of is giving the hypothetical midrange parry weapon big cooldown lag, effectively shunting the risk from the moment of the parry to the time after it. However, your idea of giving them significant warmup lag brings us back to the way things already are in Bloodborne, which would make them almost useless for reaction-based parries. I think that parrying needs to have very fast warmup to work at all, but if a midrange weapon had that I'm not sure if big cooldown lag would be enough of a downside to balance what's otherwise basically a "pocket pistol" with more range. Long range weapons seem redundant unless they're the only way of parrying healing, and if that's the case it would probably just make for awkward moments of the player intending to heal dancing in and out of range to try to get the aggressor to switch weapons, and the aggressor having to deal with awkward weapon switching. Probably better to just let every weapon have the ability to parry healing. Crumpling large bosses isn't done by parrying them, it's done by dealing damage to them or a certain part of them, so that's not a factor in this discussion.
I'm confused by you describing the current mechanics of parrying as forgiving. I think it's actually mostly overly unforgiving, with slow parries squishing you into ridiculous timing windows, with the big exception of when you're parrying from outside the enemy's attack range. In that case it is too forgiving, since you're risking essentially nothing. It's the worst of both worlds. There's also parrying way too early still nullifying the enemy attack, which I'll get to in a minute.
A playstyle without parrying sounds dull to me honestly, parrying brings much needed spice to the combat system and makes taking on threats that would wreck you under other circumstances more feasible if you're skilled enough. These games aren't as good at getting you to use your full arsenal of melee attacks as they should be to begin with, and I hate when fights devolve into dodge, light attack, dodge, light attack, maybe a strong attack somewhere in there, repeat until someone dies. Is the game more challenging this way? I wouldn't say so, but it's certainly more tedious.
You're only going to cause a stun with a parry failure if you parry way too early or way too late. Going way too early resulting in a pretty neutral outcome is something I hadn't thought about much, and now that I have I don't think I like it. It's not a massive issue, but ultimately it might be best to separate parrying and guns entirely to eliminate it. Parrying way too late and still getting a hit with the shot is only possible because parrying at range is possible, but it has such minimal impact as to be an afterthought (literally!).
I'm sorry, but changing trades to lockups is a really bad idea. If a near miss doesn't lose the parry-er anything, parrying loses a great deal of its risk. Players will just parry on and on, knowing that unless they're really sloppy they won't lose anything and if they get it right they get a big reward. Partial parries from the previous games were a fine solution to near misses; they lost the parry-er some health, but otherwise they had a neutral outcome. They were a vastly better idea than trades.
JadedWriter
Member
I wouldn't bother with this character. You can always just start over and go for a skill build. My skill is my highest stat oddly enough. I picked the professional class thing as well. I'm like 28 vit
23 end (I think)
18 str
30 skill
with the other two untouched from the base level.
KittenMaster
Member
Is this still about parries trading?
I'm pretty sure it happens because the parry is now a projectile that is independent of the player object, so it is possible to get hit but some other object cause a parry. It's just how things like that work in games (I'm sure it happens in fighting games too).
I'm pretty sure it happens because the parry is now a projectile that is independent of the player object, so it is possible to get hit but some other object cause a parry. It's just how things like that work in games (I'm sure it happens in fighting games too).
Windom Earle
Member
Most people here have played the game for a few hours and then make generalizations. Ignore it.
JadedWriter
Member
Lol makes sense. It's oddly my favorite weapon. Granted I went with skill from the beginning and haven't touched any of the more strength oriented weapons. I'm thinking about rolling a new character with strength in mind at some point so I can experience some of the other ones.
Windom Earle
Member
It might just be the best allround weapon in the game. No real weaknesses, but also no insane strengths. You can get easily through the whole game and Chalices with it and also do decent in PvP. Fire Paper and Bolt Paper are a nice bonus.
BoM and Cane are the usual suspects for Skill builds, but the Burial Blade is also excellent.
Orochinagis
Member
TC is the best long range weapon for hit and run tactics and shines pretty late in the game sadly because its runes are late in the game compared to STR players who can destroy everything faster.
The problem with the TC is its innability to quick burst of damage, stunt abilities and massive amounts of damage compared to the greatsword or the hunter axe.
JadedWriter
Member
That's really interesting to know. Though I see a lot of play vids using LHB or the Hunters Axe. Oddly enough EpicNameBro uses the Rifle Spear for what seems like half the game before he switches to Blades of Mercy. I do see a few cane users though, but not a lot. I hate that the Burial Blade is either pretty much end game or new game + though because I would love to try that out as well.
Well this sums up why I like it a lot since I do pretty much dive in and out to bait the enemy into a short range attack while I'm out of range and just whip the shit out of them. I think the weapon is pretty quick in cane form, but it doesn't seem to stun or stagger the enemy to interrupt attacks that well. It doesn't scale as well as BoM to skill, but it's still pretty god dang good with it. I should run through some of the earlier levels to get more comfortable with BoM because I've gotten pretty comfortable with the cane to the point where LHB is nothing more than a "hit the big enemy" weapon or back stab something at a safe distance weapon, or kill the giant boss...even though I wrecked Vicar Amelia with the damn cane.
Windom Earle
Member
You can get the Burial Blade in Chalice dungeons early, but it's not easy to do them at low levels. You might give it a try though.
You see Ludwig a lot because most players start their build as a hybrid between strength/skill on their first playthrough (before specializing). Ludwig is really good for that. It is a bit overused and most people in PvP will be extremely familiar with your move set. Great weapon though, just like the axe. There aren't really any bad weapons in this game. People should just pick what they like most.
Also people saying that the Cane shines in late game... I think it's also insanely good for early game. Use buffs too! It will destroy most bosses with fire paper.
Orochinagis
Member
The cane is amazing to hit weakpoints on bosses like upper arms or the head which are inaccesible to some melee players or abuse the geometry of the game and hit behind walls, so far my favorite weapon of the game
DirgeExtinction
Member
Well, damn. The BoM is mainly a Skill weapon?
Windom Earle
Member
Well, damn. The BoM is mainly a Skill weapon?
It's basically Skill only, yes. It has some Arcane scaling, but it's negligable.
DirgeExtinction
Member
Ugh.
And here I was trying to finish Eileen's quest for it.I know I can fight her/kill her as well.
Windom Earle
Member
Ugh.
My Str is around 25 and my Skill is 13.I know I can fight her/kill her as well.
Well, finishing her Quest is still totally worth it. You get a great rune for it and some of the best gestures in the game.
But yeah, sounds like you wanna go more for a strength build or a hybrid. BoM starts to really shine with higher Skill stats.
DirgeExtinction
Member
Would it be worth raising Skill in NG+ or just starting a new character based on pure Skill?Well, finishing her Quest is still totally worth it. You get a great rune for it and some of the best gestures in the game.
But yeah, sounds like you wanna go more for a strength build or a hybrid. BoM starts to really shine with higher Skill stats.
Lys Skygge
Member
Upper CW is optional so I would do that first.
Ugh.
My Str is around 25 and my Skill is 13.I know I can fight her/kill her as well.
just start a new character...BOM is a fun weapon to do all the NG bosses with. You can watch this video to see how to get it early, or find others to cheese Eilleen early.
Orochinagis
Member
Upper CW boss is pretty hard but is optional, Mensis is story related.
Go Upper CW first for fun, muahahaha
Windom Earle
Member
Depends on what you wanna do with the character. If you wanna get into PvP and also try your luck with invasions I'd start a new character. This will allow you to stay at lower levels and optimize.
It sounds like a drag, but making a new character is really really fun in this game. More than in any previous Souls game IMO. Also you will be amazed how easy things seem now.
thefatness16
Banned
The Threaded Cane is my favorite weapon in the entire series. The normal mode has a speedy r1 combo with some good thrust attacks. The transform overhead attack on it has some crazy range also. The whip mode is incredible though. Tons of range with mob control while still being really quick. It also comes with an awesome transform thrust attack. The concept is pretty damn cool as well.
The only problem it has is that it doesn't hit very hard in the beginning. A few blood shards will remedy that though.
Fimbulvetr
Member
You're talking to me, right? The conversation encompasses parrying in general, really. And I know that that's one reason trades happen (the other is the bizarre hit calculation issues in the game). Parrying having heavy warmup lag just makes trade scenarios even more likely.
KittenMaster
Member
You probably just need to learn timing of attacks then. It eventually becomes more reaction based once you start to get a feel for when damage frames are going to begin.
flipswitch
Member
Finally after countless hours I defeated
The thing is it didn't feel like he was that hard, he just felt doable to me. Using fire paper gave me the edge in the end. I didn't bother attacking the
so there was a lot of rolling around.
Total play time is 42hrs 31mins. Game was bought day 1 and I know people have put many hundreds of hours into it, it's just how I play my games, a little bit here and there. It's my front runner for GOTY. I have the witcher 3 unlocking in 3hrs 48mins.
I played a some project cars then quit the game, went back to the live area and thought should I try Bloodborne? Ended up playing and made some decent progress.
ROM
spiders
Total play time is 42hrs 31mins. Game was bought day 1 and I know people have put many hundreds of hours into it, it's just how I play my games, a little bit here and there. It's my front runner for GOTY. I have the witcher 3 unlocking in 3hrs 48mins.
I played a some project cars then quit the game, went back to the live area and thought should I try Bloodborne? Ended up playing and made some decent progress.
JadedWriter
Member
Yeah the thing is great, it's not even that bad early game either, Cleric Beast didn't know what hit it either. I think I used saw spear on Blood Starved Beast and Gascoigne because they needed to be staggered a bit, but after that I used the Cane on Amelia and Shadows of Yarnham and the first and third bosses of the first Chalice Dungeon. How the heck do I even do the second Chalice Dungeon? I need level two Ritual Blood I think and the store only carries level one ritual blood. I'd like to think I'm some what ready for the second area now at level 63, but knowing this game, no I'm not.
Sounds like this is perfect for
Amygdala
So as a skill character is my strength way too high at 18? I mainly upped it to use LHB and still give it some kick, but I stopped adding points to it and went back to focusing on skill to the point where it's at 31 I think. I also found some gem that increases my skill scaling to level B as well.
Shin Kojima
Banned
I'd start a dedicated character if you really want to use it. It felt kind of meh to me when I tried it on a character that didn't have very high bloodtinge.
Chaos2Frozen
Member
The chikage is very specialized. You're better of starting with a new character and pumping into blood early.
If you have high skill there are plenty of other options to choose from.
Sticky&Sweet
Banned
HATE HATE HATE the tick-like enemies at the beginning of Cainhurst.
Also, does the bell toll mean anything like it did in Dark Souls?
Also, does the bell toll mean anything like it did in Dark Souls?
Grady Durden
Member
Ok I just beat Rom. How much longer do I have until I finish the story?
I want to beat it before I get Witcher...
I want to beat it before I get Witcher...
Arjen
Member
You're about half way, depending on how much optional stuff you want to do/did.
The_Darkest_Red
Member
Playing through the main game for the fourth time, this time focusing on a Blade of Mercy build. Holy hell, Ebrietas is an absolute nightmare with the BoM. Can't buff with bolt paper so my damage isn't great and it's difficult to hit the head because of the short range. I spent forever trying to beat it by baiting the head smash attacks but never could get the job done. I'm sure my relatively low level didn't help either (65).
Finally switched to Reiterpallasch after more than a dozen failed attempts and beat her in two tries...
No other bosses give me trouble anymore but Ebrietas can still be very tough if you don't have a good weapon or build for her.
Finally switched to Reiterpallasch after more than a dozen failed attempts and beat her in two tries...
No other bosses give me trouble anymore but Ebrietas can still be very tough if you don't have a good weapon or build for her.
Oh man, Gehrman is one of the the most fun(if not the funnest of all) fights in all of the Soul series. What a darn great boss.
Blades of Mercy are great for Ebrietas, assuming you have the Blades quite upgraded and with good gems. But in this case you shouldn't try to bait the hhead attack. Just go behind her and attack her. Keep very close to her and keep dodging and running into her back.
Blades of Mercy are great for Ebrietas, assuming you have the Blades quite upgraded and with good gems. But in this case you shouldn't try to bait the hhead attack. Just go behind her and attack her. Keep very close to her and keep dodging and running into her back.
Same thing with me and the Chikage. Baiting the head attack was a really unreliable tactic. Eventually I made a "rage" attempt, going all out, and happened to pull off one visceral (wasn't baiting it either) and stunned her to death. Felt good.
Cause they are crazy. The range and crowd control of the whip make the cane make up for its low damage. You just have to be ready for longer fights but more fun overall.
You don't want to adjust cool-downs for mid-range. It will damage the flow of the game. And I'm not sure you are understanding my proposed design. By making mid-range parries have a slower start-up (which is pretty much equivalent to BB) and slower shots, you remove the ability to parry quick attacks. This makes mid-range less advantageous. However, you don't have to play cat & mouse, making battles twice as long due to losing parrying ability. You can choose to use close-range weapons which can parry anything but you raise the risk/reward.
Long range attacks would be for punishing large enemies and crumpling them if timed right. They would not be redundant. You could make short & mid-range lose parries (the game already has no parryable enemies) on these enemies, making gun choice more emphasized.
I said enemies, not bosses.
It is a very forgiving system. Large parrying windows, multiple ranges, and a lot of possible attacks to counter. It makes parrying systems in other action games look impossible.
It's my personal preference to mess around with this play style, it's not mandated or even efficient. I'm also running 170 physical protection as opposed to close to 300. Which could be called foolish.
Give it a shot. It is far more challenging, especially using difficult to handle weapons like the cane or BoM. It's certainly not efficient or safe.
That's not true. You can trade up close or at mid-range.
It isn't and your theory that you could trigger these trades often, making parrying less of a risk isn't right either. Try to chain trades in any fight and capture it. It just won't happen. Trading is much rarer then a proper parry or miss. It's basically a just input. And it isn't better nor worse then a partial trade system. To me partial trades don't make much sense as the only result and you could also combine the two, it's just a change in animation. Or you could go further having true trades cancel as well as advantage to quicker strikes. That would require 60fps.
I believe most of your ideas make a game you want to play but the only way to play it. Many people want to play the game how they like and options are never bad. I like having the ability to do what some would call silly, nerfing a bunch of options. I also like being able to abuse parrying or not use it at all. I see a lot of people doing higher NG runs just buffing weapons with abusable items, chain parrying, and whacking with silly long range weapons. Is that a way I enjoy playing? No, but I don't have to. You want to remove these people's play-style and not make compromises to different designs. Every action game that is great always have great options. I believe BB to be a great game because it satisfies this idea. I wouldn't buy into your narrow definition of how to play the game, constraining the design, since it hurts replay-ability for me personally. There are always ways to design a combat system that everyone will enjoy.
Baiting her head attack works just fine with BoM. You can beat her just exploiting head attacks and countering her charge. I did this in NG++ with BoM, no problem.
Melchiah
Member
The Cane's damage wasn't that far from Ludwig's with my stats and runes (+18% x2 and +9% dmg), when I finished the game.
EDIT: R-hand wpn 1: Cane, R-hand wpn 2: Ludwig.
I only used Ludwig against E
brietas.
JadedWriter
Member
Ok, your stats show me that I don't have to stop pumping points into the strength stat then, nice to know. I just have to prioritize the Skill stat, which I already am.
Based on the below video and watching a speed-run segment, Amelia goes from about 9000-10000 health to 51000-52000, first play to NG+++. That's actually not a huge increase. Father G and cleric are both closer to 20x, which is huge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkN-7HESrQk
EDIT:
I'm too lazy to watch NG+ and NG++ videos to get more numbers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkN-7HESrQk
EDIT:
I'm too lazy to watch NG+ and NG++ videos to get more numbers.
iRAWRasaurus
Banned
Threaded Cane is a great weapon. I have used it on my third character, dont know why people would talk down on it. But personally Ludwig's Holy Blade is my favorite weapon. Hunter Axe is tied with Threaded Cane as my second.
Blasphemy!
Orochinagis
Member
Chikage need something like 25 points on blood stats to fully see its damage, so I highly recommend a character specialized in that stat so you can see its potential. And use the flamethrower too
You completed the first half of the game. the next part would be pretty small if you ignore the optional area
Yep, it also increases the damage of your R1s in all your weapons, so invest some points in endurance since the TC's R1 ability to not drain so much endurance compared to the rest of the weapons.
JadedWriter
Member
Yeah I really should pump more into endurance. I dodge all over the dang place and I was practically drained at times during the Shadow of Yarnham fight. I'm also trying to learn BoM as well so I'm sure the added endurance would help with that thing.