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[Fimbulvetr]

They were fully aware that you can parry at range. They made some mobs extremely aggressive for this reason (and the reason that they can also punish back dashing). They also made the reposte window far smaller than in Dark Souls 2 for this same reason.

I don't see how this is an argument for parrying at range being a good thing. Enemies that counter it don't make it not exist, and parrying often being seriously non-viable up close is still a problem. The riposte window is shorter than Dark Souls II's, but seems to be about the same length as the first Dark Souls (about 2 seconds from the first frame of the parry reaction to the last), and I think we can take DS2 as the anomaly here (you won't see me protecting its parrying system regardless).

There is an NPC hunter in the game that will do this to you (it is intelligently programmed compared to any other NPC hunter in the game, whereas Father G is a very dumb NPC hunter in comparison.)

Basically players that get up close are able to get attacks in and the other player can't just mash L2 to get a lucky parry (unless they want to take serious damage I suppose).

The reason I mention PVP mechanics is because Father G uses the Hunter's Axe, so some of his attacks are balanced for PVP in that regard. He's still very easy to parry because his AI is exploitable which is fine because he's the first boss in the game.

Your scenario with players mashing L2 was already a nonfactor in Demon's and Dark Souls even with their much faster (roughly one tenth of a second!) parry warmups. Mashing has never been viable, and wouldn't be viable in Bloodborne if parry warmups were cut down.

Father G is distinctly not meant to be a PVP simulator, though aspects of his design may make him seem that way, so bringing up PVP in relation to his design just makes the conversation murkier I think. I'd like to see an NPC Hunter bait a parry and then punish its warmup. Even crazier would be if they countered parries on reaction, that's an inhuman task that's only even possible in theory with attacks that have something like 3 frames of warmup lag or lower (are there any attacks that are that fast?). Why would you want to punish a parry warmup anyway? If you're slightly to slow in that tiny window you just get parried.

I won't be able to respond again for a while after this post, but I look forward to seeing your response.

 

[KittenMaster]

Enemies that counter it don't make it not exist, and parrying often being seriously non-viable up close is still a problem

This is not a problem because it was specifically designed this way. They intended guns to be a new way to parry, not the Dark Souls parrying system with a new coat of paint. They wanted up close encounters to be especially dangerous this time around and that is how the game works now.

Father G is distinctly not meant to be a PVP simulator, though aspects of his design may make him seem that way, so bringing up PVP in relation to his design just makes the conversation murkier I think.

He has the Hunter's Axe, a weapon available to the player. Some of his attacks are going to resemble what a player has despite his AI being built for being a boss fight.

I'd like to see an NPC Hunter bait a parry and then punish its warmup.

If you try to parry right in their face? I'm pretty sure they'll hit you out of it (or the shot just goes past them and you get hit right after). I'm not 100% sure on their behavior in this case scenario because I know trying to do that isn't the right idea so I don't do it.

Why would you want to punish a parry warmup anyway?

Because it's extremely safe to do so. You either hit them out of it or they miss their shot if you are close enough.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Derp. Insight, INSIGHT sorry.
I don't know why I said incense XD

Perhaps the bell maiden doesn't appear in NG Central Yharnam?

Oh lol. Well maybe. I just got him to show up and I have about 23 insight, I just killed the Shadows of Yharnam so maybe that triggers it too.

As for the maiden yeah I don't know. She showed up in Cathedral Ward (for Amelia), Hemwick Charnel Lane, and Forbidden Woods.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Im at the fog gate in Hunters Dream and need help with Gehrman, level 84!!!

Still need help? Not quite sure allowed or not since I am still far away from the end at ng plus though.

 

[Caipirinha]

Guys I'm stuck on Djura in Old Yharnum to the point that the game is close to becoming unfun for me. I have spent longer on this guy than any other point in the game until now and have made no progress from the first time I attempted it.

I've tried actually trying to kill him and his HP is practically infinite even though I'm overleveled with two good gems and a level 3 weapon.

I've try getting him to fall off the edges but try as I might I can't seem to manage it.

Any tips?

 

[NEO0MJ]

Any tips?

Use the hammer and perform the R1 dash attack (it's a push, really useful for this guy) as soon as possible, then wildly swing it. I killed him immediately with that.

 

[myco666]

Guys I'm stuck on Djura in Old Yharnum to the point that the game is close to becoming unfun for me. I have spent longer on this guy than any other point in the game until now and have made no progress from the first time I attempted it.

I've tried actually trying to kill him and his HP is practically infinite even though I'm overleveled with two good gems and a level 3 weapon.

I've try getting him to fall off the edges but try as I might I can't seem to manage it.

Any tips?

Best tip is not to kill him. Unless you really want to kill him. Just go up to the tower as fast you can and run towards him and spam r1. That should drop him.

 

[DirgeExtinction]

Guys I'm stuck on Djura in Old Yharnum to the point that the game is close to becoming unfun for me. I have spent longer on this guy than any other point in the game until now and have made no progress from the first time I attempted it.

I've tried actually trying to kill him and his HP is practically infinite even though I'm overleveled with two good gems and a level 3 weapon.

I've try getting him to fall off the edges but try as I might I can't seem to manage it.

Any tips?

If you want to cheat, then once you get to the top of the tower, either shoot him over and over until he falls off or dance with him(dodge around him, be careful of falling off) and get him to the edge of the tower and shoot him a few times. Then reload the area(either die or go to Hunter's Dream and back, to find an item by the machine gun.

 

[Chilli_Axe]

Just killed the Bloodletting Beast at SL4 (the one in lower pthumerian labyrinth), feeling super pumped

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu2vhw0xDTc

 

[IvorB]

I'm getting really sucked into these chalice dungeons to the point where I've even forgotten about the main game. It's like the game just went full on old school dungeon crawl and it's awesome. Had a great dance with K

Spoiler

eeper

of the O

Spoiler

ld

L

Spoiler

ords

and then last night the P

Spoiler

thumerian

D

Spoiler

escendant

. The later was quite a handful; he had some moves. Gonna do my remaining depth 2 ones then on to depth 3.

 

[IvorB]

Just killed the Bloodletting Beast at SL4 (the one in lower pthumerian labyrinth), feeling super pumped

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu2vhw0xDTc

Congrats, mate!

 

[Chilli_Axe]

Congrats, mate!

Thanks! Not looking forward to starting depth 4 chalices on this character, but it's gotta be done, haha

 

[spliced]

I can now see why people have trouble with Paarl. With the axe I just kept collapsing it, but when it doesn't get staggered it's really hard to get under it, then often when I do boom aoe 90% health gone.

Trying coop for the first time and fighting Father G felt like a gang beat down lol. We just pinned him in a corner and the poor man-beast never had a chance.

 

[Rozart]

Holy fuck. I did it. I did it. I finally killed the defiled Amygdala. Lost count of how many tries it took. Everyone talks about Ebrietas, the defiled Watchdog, Vicar Amelia etc. but this Amygdala is hands down the hardest boss I've fought in BB (and I'd even venture that it's the hardest Souls boss I've fought thus far as well). Don't think I'll ever do a second chalice dungeon run 'cause I definitely do not want to face her again.

Also, thanks to the gaffers who gave me tips-- it really helped me out a lot. Hoping that the bosses after this are nowhere as hard as this one but knowing From...

 

[gunbo13]

Warmup/cooldown timing design almost certainly was established before animations were finalized.

This is complete speculation. It's comical you are now speaking for From developers on their development process.

Yes, I think that going back to a more melee style of parrying would be superior, and most of my big post is dedicated to explaining why.

So you want a different game, similar to multiple on the market that already exist? Gotcha.

The scenario you seem to be describing is when you get knocked down on a parry trade. Getting knocked down isn't a risk/reward element, it's a definite factor.

Risk/reward: If you trade and don't get to the enemy in time to visceral, you eat damage. If you do, you regain your health and deal damage. It is risk/reward for the parry and then you have the risk/reward of the trade. It's an acceptable design.

I've come to a conclusion already: there are attacks that are physically impossible for what is likely to be the vast majority of people to parry with a judged reaction, despite the fact that they are vulnerable to parries and hard to distinguish from other attacks.

Your conclusion is nothing but speculation. Psychic parries means predicting attacks, catching animations. It's used in many games. And they can only be proven necessary if evidence is shown that just inputs can't be done on reaction. You are also trying to get me to do the homework for you and I am not going to do it. I've put the game down and am a very busy guy. I'm sure you would also prefer me doing it since I do actually know what I'm talking about and doing. No dice.

Anyway, all of this boils down to complains that Bloodborne isn't like some other game that doesn't exist or somewhat exists in sibling titles. None of it is actually constructive against the design that exists and not the theoretical. And nothing has been proven based on study, just lazy speculation.

The parry system is fine. The trade system is fine. The game is fine.

 

[Caipirinha]

Still can't push Djura off the tower... Driving me absolutely nuts!

 

[Doomsayer]

Still can't push Djura off the tower... Driving me absolutely nuts!

There's another way to do it...

Climb the ladder and let him see you, then descend the ladder and wait for him to walk over to you. Eventually he will fall off the ladder and die. Don't need to waste any ammo or anything.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Talking about risk/reward remind me of how satisfying is the R2 charge attack of the kirkhammer, I mainly used when it was tottally safe, until I started trying to time it just before enemy attacks (specially for those enemies that could be stunned to the floor). A few times I got the hit, while getting hit, other I got the hit first so I didn't recover the hp and others, managed to get a clean hit.

And I think that's fine, the power of the attack well deserve those cutbacks (not to mentions I could follow it with another R2 press for even more damage). I destroyed the hunter in the

Spoiler

final Elieen part quest

with it and it was awesome.

 

[Akuun]

Guys I'm stuck on Djura in Old Yharnum to the point that the game is close to becoming unfun for me. I have spent longer on this guy than any other point in the game until now and have made no progress from the first time I attempted it.

I've tried actually trying to kill him and his HP is practically infinite even though I'm overleveled with two good gems and a level 3 weapon.

I've try getting him to fall off the edges but try as I might I can't seem to manage it.

Any tips?

As far as I can tell, he's VERY strong if you fight him head-on. So everyone I know has just knocked him off somehow.

On my winning run, I charged him as soon as I was up the ladder. He usually starts by shooting, so I quickstepped forward through it, which put me in melee range, and then hit him with a few melee attacks. He starts the fight standing at the edge of the arena, and those few hits were enough to knock him off. You probably need a relatively fast weapon for this though. I used the sword form of the threaded cane.

 

[Caipirinha]

Thanks for the tips guys I'll give it another go!

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Just so you know, if you aren't doing enough damage, is a good sign you definetly aren't ready for that fight.

You can come back later, he isn't gonna leave the place.

 

[cormack12]

Just beaten Celestial Emissary and The One Reborn. Found both these bosses OK. Then found Ebrietas who wrecked my shit. Also opened the Nightmare Mensis. Approx how long have I got left. I think I've picked up all optional bosses that were accessible up to now and don't think I've missed any areas.

 

[NEO0MJ]

Just beaten Celestial Emissary and The One Reborn. Found both these bosses OK. Then found Ebrietas who wrecked my shit. Also opened the Nightmare Mensis. Approx how long have I got left. I think I've picked up all optional bosses that were accessible up to now and don't think I've missed any areas.

Not much. Two more main bosses and then you can fight the final boss immediately.

 

[KennyLinder]

I did it!! I beat Amygdala in

Spoiler

Defiled Dungeon!

FUCK YES FUCK!


I didn't get hit a single time during the first 75% of the boss fight, just stayed in front of her and got her throwing her arms down. Then took 1 or 2 hits whenever possible. Final phase was a little trickier with hanging around her legs, but only got stomped a few times. It was a little messy, but who fucking cares, she's down, DEFILED Dungeons are done, yay!

Onto Isz or Loran next. Any preferences out there for either? Shit man, I am so happy I did it, it was a really good challenge.

 

[Cre8]

Finally, I have join the 4.6% Platinum Club. One of the most memorial, challenging and fun game for me in a while. After beating Bloodletting Beast, Pthumeru Queen was a walk in the park. Thanks for a great game Miyasaki san. Now waiting for DLC expansion.

 

[Fancy Clown]

Just got the game and played 5 hours today...damn game has me hooked. I'm level 21 and currently I'm in Old Yharnam getting absolutely torn up by that guy with the machine gun. Should I go back and explore the cathedral ward or press on through Old Yharnam?

 

[KennyLinder]

Just got the game and played 5 hours today...damn game has me hooked. I'm level 21 and currently I'm in Old Yharnam getting absolutely torn up by that guy with the machine gun. Should I go back and explore the cathedral ward or press on through Old Yharnam?

Have you done the boss in Cathedral Ward? I am not sure it really matters on the order in which you do that. The boss can be quite tricky in itself. Old Yharnam leads to a boss fight too. Er... I guess do both, but personally I think Old Yharnam is the trickier of the two areas (machine gun guy you've met, then a couple of challenging areas and a potentially sticky boss).

 

[Zomba13]

I've been cruising through most of the chalice dungeons. Until yesterday, when I fought the Abhorrent Beast for the first time. That was a crazy difficulty spike. I died over twenty times. I even had to do a few farming runs for vials, for the first time ever. The struggle was real. Then I met him again a few hours later in a root chalice, and beat him on my first attempt. I guess I really learned how to fight him the first time.



Be careful. IIRC, you can get the game into an unwinnable state if you fight Amelia after Rom. (Moon phase changes back from bloodmoon to night, halting progress.)

Welp, too little too late. I beat Amelia after that post without pulling Eileen. I think I didn't even need to beat her to unlock the tower? Just needed the Bloodstarved beast? Anyway, game now irreparably broken. Oh well. I did what I wanted (upper ward) and I can still do the Chalice dungeons on this character. I got all the weapons and most upgraded to +9 so I'm ok. I'll have to play through on a new character to get the other two endings. Oh well. Live and learn. I was so impatient wanting to get to the upper ward because I missed it the first time (never got the key) I wanted to get it as soon as possible.

 

[KennyLinder]

Welp, too little too late. I beat Amelia after that post without pulling Eileen. I think I didn't even need to beat her to unlock the tower? Just needed the Bloodstarved beast? Anyway, game now irreparably broken. Oh well. I did what I wanted (upper ward) and I can still do the Chalice dungeons on this character. I got all the weapons and most upgraded to +9 so I'm ok. I'll have to play through on a new character to get the other two endings. Oh well. Live and learn. I was so impatient wanting to get to the upper ward because I missed it the first time (never got the key) I wanted to get it as soon as possible.

How did you manage to break the sequence in the game?

 

[Fancy Clown]

Have you done the boss in Cathedral Ward? I am not sure it really matters on the order in which you do that. The boss can be quite tricky in itself. Old Yharnam leads to a boss fight too. Er... I guess do both, but personally I think Old Yharnam is the trickier of the two areas.

I have basically explored none of the cathedral ward. I talked to that witchy lady who asks to bring people to the cathedral, fought a few creepy white-faced dudes with lanterns and sticks, and then discovered Old Yarnham. I'll check out the Cathedral ward next time since idk how I'm gonna get past that machine gun.

 

[ctfg23]

How did you manage to break the sequence in the game?

Killing

Spoiler

Amelia

and

Spoiler

Rom

both

Spoiler

change moon phases. By killing them in the wrong order, the game gets stuck in the wrong phase, making progress impossible.

It was possible to do this via a bug that allowed the player to go backwards through the gate in central yharnam, which was patched out a while ago.

 

[KennyLinder]

I have basically explored none of the cathedral ward. I talked to that witchy lady who asks to bring people to the cathedral, fought a few creepy white-faced dudes with lanterns and sticks, and then discovered Old Yarnham. I'll check out the Cathedral ward next time since idk how I'm gonna get past that machine gun.

Yeah the machine gun is tough for sure. I spent a while in Cathedral Ward, getting my levels up slowly.

 

[KennyLinder]

Killing

Spoiler

Amelia

and

Spoiler

Rom

both

Spoiler

change moon phases. By killing them in the wrong order, the game gets stuck in the wrong phase, making progress impossible.

It was possible to do this via a bug that allowed the player to go backwards through the gate in central yharnam, which was patched out a while ago.

That's funny! How.. how did you get through the gate? I gotta YouTube that

 

[ctfg23]

That's funny! How.. how did you get through the gate? I gotta YouTube that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oSYZYuw38k

 

[Caipirinha]

FINALLY beat Djura. I actually just decided to try and beat him outright because I couldn't manage to push him off, but in doing so... He fell off anyway, at about 5% health too!

Then I killed his asshole friend, but it all cost me about 30 health pots...

Did not enjoy the Djura encounter at all but dat satisfaction when I got him anyway. Bloodborne somehow manages to be as rewarding as it is frustrating, that is to say, a hell of a lot of both.

 

[KennyLinder]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oSYZYuw38k

Cheers.

That's... amazing!

 

[Laughing Banana]

FINALLY beat Djura. I actually just decided to try and beat him outright because I couldn't manage to push him off, but in doing so... He fell off anyway, at about 5% health too!

Then I killed his asshole friend, but it all cost me about 30 health pots...

Did not enjoy the Djura encounter at all but dat satisfaction when I got him anyway. Bloodborne somehow manages to be as rewarding as it is frustrating, that is to say, a hell of a lot of both.

Awww, you missed out on a cool Gesture since you can always kill him later anyways while still getting it.

I understand the feel of needing to kicking his ass though after he peppered you with that machine gun all the way throughout Old Yharnam, lol.

 

[Karsticles]

FINALLY beat Djura. I actually just decided to try and beat him outright because I couldn't manage to push him off, but in doing so... He fell off anyway, at about 5% health too!

Then I killed his asshole friend, but it all cost me about 30 health pots...

Did not enjoy the Djura encounter at all but dat satisfaction when I got him anyway. Bloodborne somehow manages to be as rewarding as it is frustrating, that is to say, a hell of a lot of both.

I think it's because, even when you get your butt kicked, you know it's your fault. So you can get mad at the game, but the anger is really toward yourself for the mistakes you make. When you overcome those mistakes, it feels great because you are throwing all that failure off of yourself. When this process occurs in a poorly designed game, you just feel bitter and irritated even with your victory, because you don't feel like it should have been as unreasonably hard as it was.

 

[DirgeExtinction]

Ugh,

Spoiler

Ebrietas

is kicking my ass.
I'm ashamed to say I'm level 79.

 

[KittenMaster]

The damage on the Wheel has been kinda bad so far.

It's not a good sign when I have trouble killing

Spoiler

the ghosts in Cainhurst

with it.

 

[methane47]

Ugh,

Spoiler

Ebrietas

is kicking my ass.
I'm ashamed to say I'm level 79.

Eibrietas was impossible for me at lvl 80
I'm pretty sure she was broken in my world. Her turn speed was as fast as a dradle.

In the end I got super lucky and managed to summon 2 ppl. Boss was still difficult and one helper died but we got her Down.

Also finsiehd the game tonight. 1st ending boss was also impossible. Thank god for the coop system. 2nd end boss was a breeeezzzeeee.

After that I reloaded and tried my first chalice. Knocked out the 3 layers in one go. I'm assuming it gets MUCH more difficult

 

[myco666]

The damage on the Wheel has been kinda bad so far.

It's not a good sign when I have trouble killing

Spoiler

the ghosts in Cainhurst

with it.

I have Wheel +8 and it is wrecking everything it touches. High damage and stuns almost everything.

 

[NEO0MJ]

Wheel feels like a weapon that required a dedicated build. Also, it seems to be glitched in a bad way, unless the wiki is outdated.

 

[Laughing Banana]

The community is still trying to figure out the deal with the Wheel, in particular regarding it's second form and how it relates to Arcane. Some say higher Arcane will net you better result in it's second form compared to higher Strength. Some say it factors both Strength and Arcane in both forms. Some say only the second form factors Arcane in it. Yada yada yada etc etc.

 

[cormack12]

Feel like I've nerfed myself a bit in my build. These are my stats, and I have Ebrietas and nightmare of Mensis to so. Here are my stats approaching end game (overall level is 73 I think from memory).

VIT:31
END:30
SKL:28
ARC:15
STR:12

I'm noticing more that I'm locking myself out of alternatives like the cannon, and can only just wield the Tonitrus +7. Cane seems low damage compared to STR weapons, but I'm basically looking at a grind to use things like the cannon and Tonitrus effectively now right?

Weird, things like Rom and Emissary were really easy. Even the One Reborn, but the more challenging bosses are those one on ones like Amygdala and Amelia for sure. It's fun, but I think a STR build has more weapons and is more scalable in this game than SKL so far. Or I have just got a mish mash of stats? I really wanted the arcane for Beast Roar....

 

[Rozart]

Talking about Djura...Is there anyway to get to Paarl before triggering him and his machine gun?

I did it!! I beat Amygdala in

Spoiler

Defiled Dungeon!

FUCK YES FUCK!

Haha, grats! Just managed beat her yesterday as well. My hunter just stood there stunned in disbelief for a moment. Your tips really helped me out!

Ugh,

Spoiler

Ebrietas

is kicking my ass.
I'm ashamed to say I'm level 79.

What weapon are you using? The Ludwig's thrust attack is extremely effective against her.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Feel like I've nerfed myself a bit in my build. These are my stats, and I have Ebrietas and nightmare of Mensis to so. Here are my stats approaching end game (overall level is 73 I think from memory).

VIT:31
END:30
SKL:28
ARC:15
STR:12

I'm noticing more that I'm locking myself out of alternatives like the cannon, and can only just wield the Tonitrus +7. Cane seems low damage compared to STR weapons, but I'm basically looking at a grind to use things like the cannon and Tonitrus effectively now right?

Weird, things like Rom and Emissary were really easy. Even the One Reborn, but the more challenging bosses are those one on ones like Amygdala and Amelia for sure. It's fun, but I think a STR build has more weapons and is more scalable in this game than SKL so far. Or I have just got a mish mash of stats? I really wanted the arcane for Beast Roar....

From the way your stat spreads you'd be better off with something like Saw Spear (really, it's great) or level up 4 more for Ludwig and go from there.

However, your stat spread is also ideal for Burial Blade, since it scales well with SKL, and is strengthened by STR (don't let the D STR scale and B Arcane fools you; Burial Blade gets more attack from raising STR than Arcane; however raising them both up, after SKL of course, will bring out the full damage potential of the weapon.)

From just stuff I find in the main game alone my Burial Blade (just like you, mostly Skill with some Strength and Arcane) +10's attack stat is around 530-ish, which is quite significant.

Talking about Djura...Is there anyway to get to Paarl before triggering him and his machine gun?

Nah, but it's ok since he will be friendly even after he shot at you provided you met with Paarl (you don't have to beat it, just meeting with it is enough) and approach from behind (Paarl's or Blood Starved Beast's lamp).

Edit, actually you can (see NEO0MJ's post below v) but I wouldn't recommend it.

 

[NEO0MJ]

Talking about Djura...Is there anyway to get to Paarl before triggering him and his machine gun?

You can go to the forgotten village after beating Rom. It's the only way to reach it if you don't beat Blood Starved Beast to trigger the kidnappers.

 

[Laughing Banana]

You can go to the forgotten village after beating Rom. It's the only way to reach it if you don't beat Blood Starved Beast to trigger the kidnappers.

But by doing this you'll be missing out an NPC. And free early Tonitrus.

 

[KittenMaster]

You can just not kill Djura and visit him later.