I think that is the holy medium, responsible for the beginnings of blood ministration. Alfred says that the holy medium is sitting on the alter of the Grand Cathedralhowever I believe that's Laurence's knowledge, or his blood, that's being held in the medium. Remember that blood "echoes" can be channeled to grant power. Laurence's memories were probably channeled into the medium. He may have been the one to do it.
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Bloodborne Story and Lore Discussion Thread [Unmarked Spoilers]
- Thread starter GorillaJu
- Start date
I think that is the holy medium, responsible for the beginnings of blood ministration. Alfred says that the holy medium is sitting on the alter of the Grand Cathedralhowever I believe that's Laurence's knowledge, or his blood, that's being held in the medium. Remember that blood "echoes" can be channeled to grant power. Laurence's memories were probably channeled into the medium. He may have been the one to do it.
superseohyun
Member
as with all the Souls games, we'll know much more about the story in the upcoming DLCs! I'm already hyped as hell
anyway, that was Laurence's skull behind Amelia, wasn't it? And it wasn't human so he clearly turned into a beast and died for whatever reason afterwards (his skull seemed to be cracked though)
And we see Amelia either praying for him or to him? And we know how that turned out
so he's just another Church priest that turned into a beast in the end then, and I don't think there's any more to it.
Regarding Yharnam (but admittedly mostly just post-Rom), I was getting Berserk's Eclipse vibes ALL game, so maybe that was kinda what it was? Where dimensions or realities are colliding with each other and in the end something more emerges from the ritual, a Great One/Griffith. GUYS we should make more links to Berserk's lore because we know how much that influenced From Software
edit: some nice theories over here too
wow that is some great read
One thing in this post that I think is a little more clear:
The trophy description when you achieve the true ending says that you usher humanity into its next infancy, implying that you're sending humanity into a new era. Presumably if your character was nobleand this probably depends on your personal interpretation of your character and thus follows your own imaginationit will be a peaceful era.
Souls games basically give you a chance for a bittersweet ending, and I think part of Miyazaki's philosophy is to offer a cathartic option where you feel you see an ending worthy of your achievements in the game. Is there anything better than eternal squid-on-doll sex while you watch over your peaceful children from godhood? Yeah... Didn't think so.
The trophy description when you achieve the true ending says that you usher humanity into its next infancy, implying that you're sending humanity into a new era. Presumably if your character was nobleand this probably depends on your personal interpretation of your character and thus follows your own imaginationit will be a peaceful era.
Souls games basically give you a chance for a bittersweet ending, and I think part of Miyazaki's philosophy is to offer a cathartic option where you feel you see an ending worthy of your achievements in the game. Is there anything better than eternal squid-on-doll sex while you watch over your peaceful children from godhood? Yeah... Didn't think so.
Right, that makes sense!
it's hard for me to accept any plausible theories lately after DS2's fake dragon debacle, where everyone at one point accepted the fact that Aldia has found a way to turn himself into a dragon
And then an update completely demolished that theory after adding his NPC/Boss in game lool
The what is the Holy Medium? Why is it take shape in a skull of a beast? I guess whatever Laurence do, which is very unclear at the moment even the person himself, is the thread that will connecting between the Beast and the Kin.
Maybe it is the skull of a great one?
Nah it's way too tiny and beast-like to be one
None of the great ones resembled a human that much
Well so many gaps are left unfilled that everything at some point can sound plausible. I think when it's this cryptic and the goal is just to try and piece things together, you have to just attach yourself to what you want to believe. Like when you watch movies with ambiguous endings, it's left to you to decide what happened right after the camera stopped rolling (did the top keep spinning or did it wobble? etc)
But so far very Great Ones, or perhaps to be exact everyone that granted power by them, take shape in grotesque creature, not a beast that look so "noble". I guess whatever Laurence did, it's possible that it have major impact to the ongoing event and would be very different if he didn't so.
I'm really feeling that Laurence will be the Artorias of Bloodborne lol
Yeah good point. It's clearly some kind of beast skull. Seems like it'd be about the size of a werewolf skull. Either way, unless Alfred is wrong or there are just multiple Holy Mediums, that is the Holy Medium.
^Shengar I'm leaning that way too. Similar to Artorias, we hear a lot about Laurence but don't know what happened to him. I don't think that's him in the rocking chair, I'm quite certain that is Provost Willem.
I appreciate it
There are still things throughout that game that I'm mulling over and things that still don't make a whole lot of sense. But I think it's supposed to be like that. There are so many possible explanations for most of the game that any one of us could be right; and that's if there's a right answer at all.
It was a cool story for sure. Really weird though, I haven't fully decided if I like it or not yet. I will say with all certainty though that it's certainly interesting and compelling. The twisted folks at From really know what they're doing.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
I would say I 'like' the story in so far as it serves to make the game more interesting without detracting or interfering. It enhances without overwhelming. Like alcohol content in a good wine!
The plot may not be ground breaking but the world is as alluring as you'll ever find in a game.
The plot may not be ground breaking but the world is as alluring as you'll ever find in a game.
superseohyun
Member
hmm now that i think of it, apparently Djura was having dreams too. Could he once be in the dream world and completed whatever Gehrman told him to do, and rewakend in the real world but somehow retained some of his memory. Thus he doubt the purpose of the hunt.
That's what really makes the game for me as well. Other than the fantastic gameplay design, that's where Bloodborne shines brightest. Story aside, everything about the world and settings they've crafted is extraordinary. I found myself compelled to explore to try and learn more and unravel the secrets of Yharnam and the greater world.
The Xtortionist
Member
Would anyone happen to know if anything special happens if you attack Gehrman while he's waiting by the tree at endgame? The thought just crossed my mind.
Long Post Incoming
Okay. I just finished the game and got the true ending. Out of curiosity, I looked up the other endings for reference along with some of what other people think happened so I could piece together my thoughts on the story. I apologize in advance if I forget a character's name or leave things out. This is all merely conjecture like everyone else's, that's pretty much all we have to go by when a story is this obtuse. I also apologize for any spelling and grammatical mistakes. No offense friends, but I'm not going to treat this like a college essay or anything
- The Great Ones were an ancient race of almost celestial beings that made contact with primitive humans. Hence them being referred to as "the gods" why we see statues and monuments that resemble them.
- Byrgenwerth was a research facility that was established upon discovering a labyrinth containing the remains of some Great Ones.
- There were a few names discovered throughout the game and the only one I can remember is Laurence who I believe to be the dude in the rocking chair right before your fight Rom. He and a few others were the ones that established Byrgenwerth and began investigating and trying to make contact with the Great Ones. Perhaps, even try to harness some of their power within themselves.
- Their research of The Great Ones became the early foundation of blood ministration and led to the founding of Yharnam and the establishment of The Church. I believe the blood ministration was built upon the use of the old blood of The Great Ones.
- I have a theory that at some point, Laurence basically went crazy due to his obsession with trying to contact and harness the power of The Great Ones. This lead to one of his colleagues breaking off to found the village/town of Yahar'Gul to carry on the research.
- Over time, Yharnam and Yahar'Gul expanded and research on the The Great Ones continued. The early signs of the Scourge of Beasts began to pop up around this time. Gehrman, a great warrior and hunter, took it upon himself to put down these monsters before they became a problem and spread the plague.
- At some point, the Choir, or academy, or whatever organization that comprised the Lecture Hall area and the depths of Yahar'Gul managed to really tap into the power of The Great Ones; but it wasn't natural. This is why the students are horrendously deformed and I believe The One Reborn to be a failed attempt at genetically creating a Great One.
- This breakthrough drew the attention of The Moon Presence which beckoned to the normal world. I believe this being to be sinister and his plan was to merge the normal world with a nightmarish dream world of his creation and rule like a god much like the ancient Great Ones within Byrgenwerth.
- Micolash, who I presume to be some kind of ancient and powerful scholar, became a conduit for this nightmare realm. The creation and spread of this nightmare led to the red moon and the slow engulfing of the normal world. The Lecture Hall was essentially transported away from Yahar'gul and into the nightmare realm itself.
- Within this nightmare, it's my theory that The Moon Presence essentially impregnated several women (who are selected for whatever reason) in hopes of creating new Great Ones to further spread his influence within this world.
- I believe that one of these women was the Queen who was impregnated with "Mergo". Mergo was lost for some reason, and this combination of loss of child and strange contact with The Moon Presence resulted in her being restless for all eternity. She comes out in particular during Red Moons.
- I believe the other woman was Gehrman's wife. My theory is that she was impregnated and either died in unholy labor or was killed mercifully (along with the child) by Gehrman. This is why there was an umbilical cord in the old workshop. I believe the doll is modeled after his wife.
- At some point before the nightmare could spread very far, Rom somehow was able to drive the nightmare away and keep it sealed. I'm not sure if Rom himself is a Great One or a powerful being who somehow gained power equal to one. If he is indeed a Great One, he must be in opposition to the others.
- After that was done, Yharnam and The Church expanded and the practice of blood ministration spread making the city a bit of a legend. Eventually though, the overuse and dangerous experiments with the blood of The Great Ones, which I believe to be the "pale blood", lead to The Scourge of Beast overwhelming Yharnam. Overwhelming to the point that Old Yharnam had to be abandoned and sealed away. It was at this point that the Church sealed away Byrgenwerth and the Forbidden Woods knowing that it was the source of this terrible plague.
- With the Scourge becoming endemic, The Hunt, as first done by Gehrman, became a tradition within Yharnam. Great warriors and hunters would travel to the city to cleanse the place, test their meddle, and partake in a sport of sorts.
- With the original nightmare ended, The Moon Presence was left with little power to do anything. So it went after the two individuals who it had close enough contact with. The first was Laurence, original founder of Byrgenwerth and the one with a blind (pun intended, haha) obsession with The Great Ones. The second was Gehrman whose possession of the umbilical cord compelled The Moon Presence. I feel like this could be what the game means by "surrogates". Not true Great One children, but individuals that it can still use.
- I believe The Moon Presence cursed Gehrman and trapped him within the then created Hunter's Dream. I think it was Gehrman's duty to find potentially powerful hunters and use them to try and release the nightmare. Basically, he was forced to manipulate them and trap them within the Dream as a sort of purgatory. He would promise them that they could escape if they could end the Scourge of Beasts. Basically, he manipulated them under the guise of "The Hunt". He was to guide them to Byrgenwerth in hopes that one day a hunter could defeat Rom and release the nightmare once again.
- Laurence, again, the dude in the rocking chair at Byrgenwerth, was to meet hunters as they arrived and direct them to the lake to face Rom.
- So basically, your hunter becomes trapped in the Hunter's Dream and battles his way to Byrgenwerth believing it to be the root of the Scourge of Beasts. There he battles and defeats Rom accidentally unleashing the nightmare. That's why he sees the white queen, her soul is "unleashed" a bit.
- With the new moon and the nightmare descending to engulf the normal realm, select women again begin to be impregnated with potential Great One offspring. Iosefka and that whore chick who starts with an "A" were two such women. Hence, why you obtain powerful umbilical cords upon killing them.
- Thing is though, your hunter had been obtaining insight throughout his quest. The Madman's Knowledge items say when you inspect that they contain knowledge of The Great Ones. I believe that gaining all of this insight allowed the hunter to kind of transcend the hunt and maintain awareness of what's going on. Hence why he is able to enter Yahar'gul and see all of the creatures with clarity.
- It's at this point I believe Gehrman starts to rebel a bit. Your character keeps finding references to some kind of ritual, red moons, and children, etc. and begins to kind of be guided into the nightmare.
- The Hunter fights his way through the Unseen Village (whose name makes sense now) which is the heart of the nightmare. After killing The One Reborn he is able to enter the nightmare itself and begins to really learn about The Great Ones themselves.
- He kills some of them such as Amygdala, Celestial Emissary, and Ebrietas, before entering the nightmare of Mensis (The Mensis Ritual, the summoning of the nightmare) and kills Micolash. Upon killing Micolash, the nightmare begins to fade which would explain why the sky looks a bit different. The ritual has been stopped but the nightmare hasn't completely faded away yet; it will with time.
- The hunter is then faced with Mergo's Wet Nurse who I believe to be a Great One tasked with overseeing the nightmare and of course the birth of the Great One children (duh). It engages the hunter in a last ditch effort to preserve everything that they've done. The hunter defeats the Nurse and returns to the Hunter's Dream to find it burning.
- I believe that Gehrman is essentially rebelling against The Moon Presence. The hunter had stopped the nightmare that Gehrman was forced to help bring back which greatly pleases Gehrman; this why he tells the hunter what a great job he's done upon their confrontation. Gehrman is telling his overseer to F-Off basically and he burns down the place signaling his defiance.
- When the hunter meets with Gehrman, he is offered the chance to be killed and released from this terrible purgatory after putting an end to the nightmare. If the hunter agrees, he wakes up to a normal world and may or may not remember everything. If the hunter refuses to die, then Gehrman decides he must force the fate upon the hunter and they battle.
- In the ending where you only fight Gehrman, the hunter is victorious which ushers in The Moon presence. It then makes the hunter the new caretaker of The Hunter's Dream to replace its lost slave. In this ending, I believe the hunter is forced to act as The Moon Presence's pawn like Gehrman was.
- But in the true ending, the hunter obtains incredible strength and power from consuming the umbilical cords. The Moon Presence realizes that it can't control this hunter and decides to engage him. The hunter defeats The Moon Presence and now is where it gets weird.
- I'm not sure if the hunter like takes in the Moon Presence's power and becomes a Great One himself (that weird squid thing seen at the end) or just puts an end to everything and returns to the real world. I like to think that the hunter was able to wake up free from everything and that squid was maybe the Doll's long-lost child returning to her or something before the dream disappears. Kind of like reuniting the afterlife. If he is indeed the squid, that would mean the hunter has basically ascended to become a pseudo-godlike figure.
Well that certainly took a long time to write up haha. I'm with everyone that the so-called "bad ending" is probably the most satisfying. It would definitely be if it came with a final battle.
I LUV U
fantastic read
Agreed but the thing is the "true" ending really doent provide enough clarity on what eventually happened. What happened to the Hunter? Did he become a Great One? And if so what is the little slug in the end? So many questions...
Agreed but the thing is the "true" ending really doent provide enough clarity on what eventually happened. What happened to the Hunter? Did he become a Great One? And if so what is the little slug in the end? So many questions...
The trophy text actually spells it out. You become an infant Great One and lift humanity as a whole to the next level of existence.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
What do you guys think we'll get DLC of? If any. I'm thinking we could get something that expounds on Mergo or Laurence. Those seem like the two biggest mentioned characters who we know the least about.
Long Post Incoming
Okay. I just finished the game and got the true ending. Out of curiosity, I looked up the other endings for reference along with some of what other people think happened so I could piece together my thoughts on the story. I apologize in advance if I forget a character's name or leave things out. This is all merely conjecture like everyone else's, that's pretty much all we have to go by when a story is this obtuse. I also apologize for any spelling and grammatical mistakes. No offense friends, but I'm not going to treat this like a college essay or anything
- The Great Ones were an ancient race of almost celestial beings that made contact with primitive humans. Hence them being referred to as "the gods" why we see statues and monuments that resemble them.
- Byrgenwerth was a research facility that was established upon discovering a labyrinth containing the remains of some Great Ones.
- There were a few names discovered throughout the game and the only one I can remember is Laurence who I believe to be the dude in the rocking chair right before your fight Rom. He and a few others were the ones that established Byrgenwerth and began investigating and trying to make contact with the Great Ones. Perhaps, even try to harness some of their power within themselves.
- Their research of The Great Ones became the early foundation of blood ministration and led to the founding of Yharnam and the establishment of The Church. I believe the blood ministration was built upon the use of the old blood of The Great Ones.
- I have a theory that at some point, Laurence basically went crazy due to his obsession with trying to contact and harness the power of The Great Ones. This lead to one of his colleagues breaking off to found the village/town of Yahar'Gul to carry on the research.
- Over time, Yharnam and Yahar'Gul expanded and research on the The Great Ones continued. The early signs of the Scourge of Beasts began to pop up around this time. Gehrman, a great warrior and hunter, took it upon himself to put down these monsters before they became a problem and spread the plague.
- At some point, the Choir, or academy, or whatever organization that comprised the Lecture Hall area and the depths of Yahar'Gul managed to really tap into the power of The Great Ones; but it wasn't natural. This is why the students are horrendously deformed and I believe The One Reborn to be a failed attempt at genetically creating a Great One.
- This breakthrough drew the attention of The Moon Presence which beckoned to the normal world. I believe this being to be sinister and his plan was to merge the normal world with a nightmarish dream world of his creation and rule like a god much like the ancient Great Ones within Byrgenwerth.
- Micolash, who I presume to be some kind of ancient and powerful scholar, became a conduit for this nightmare realm. The creation and spread of this nightmare led to the red moon and the slow engulfing of the normal world. The Lecture Hall was essentially transported away from Yahar'gul and into the nightmare realm itself.
- Within this nightmare, it's my theory that The Moon Presence essentially impregnated several women (who are selected for whatever reason) in hopes of creating new Great Ones to further spread his influence within this world.
- I believe that one of these women was the Queen who was impregnated with "Mergo". Mergo was lost for some reason, and this combination of loss of child and strange contact with The Moon Presence resulted in her being restless for all eternity. She comes out in particular during Red Moons.
- I believe the other woman was Gehrman's wife. My theory is that she was impregnated and either died in unholy labor or was killed mercifully (along with the child) by Gehrman. This is why there was an umbilical cord in the old workshop. I believe the doll is modeled after his wife.
- At some point before the nightmare could spread very far, Rom somehow was able to drive the nightmare away and keep it sealed. I'm not sure if Rom himself is a Great One or a powerful being who somehow gained power equal to one. If he is indeed a Great One, he must be in opposition to the others.
- After that was done, Yharnam and The Church expanded and the practice of blood ministration spread making the city a bit of a legend. Eventually though, the overuse and dangerous experiments with the blood of The Great Ones, which I believe to be the "pale blood", lead to The Scourge of Beast overwhelming Yharnam. Overwhelming to the point that Old Yharnam had to be abandoned and sealed away. It was at this point that the Church sealed away Byrgenwerth and the Forbidden Woods knowing that it was the source of this terrible plague.
- With the Scourge becoming endemic, The Hunt, as first done by Gehrman, became a tradition within Yharnam. Great warriors and hunters would travel to the city to cleanse the place, test their meddle, and partake in a sport of sorts.
- With the original nightmare ended, The Moon Presence was left with little power to do anything. So it went after the two individuals who it had close enough contact with. The first was Laurence, original founder of Byrgenwerth and the one with a blind (pun intended, haha) obsession with The Great Ones. The second was Gehrman whose possession of the umbilical cord compelled The Moon Presence. I feel like this could be what the game means by "surrogates". Not true Great One children, but individuals that it can still use.
- I believe The Moon Presence cursed Gehrman and trapped him within the then created Hunter's Dream. I think it was Gehrman's duty to find potentially powerful hunters and use them to try and release the nightmare. Basically, he was forced to manipulate them and trap them within the Dream as a sort of purgatory. He would promise them that they could escape if they could end the Scourge of Beasts. Basically, he manipulated them under the guise of "The Hunt". He was to guide them to Byrgenwerth in hopes that one day a hunter could defeat Rom and release the nightmare once again.
- Laurence, again, the dude in the rocking chair at Byrgenwerth, was to meet hunters as they arrived and direct them to the lake to face Rom.
- So basically, your hunter becomes trapped in the Hunter's Dream and battles his way to Byrgenwerth believing it to be the root of the Scourge of Beasts. There he battles and defeats Rom accidentally unleashing the nightmare. That's why he sees the white queen, her soul is "unleashed" a bit.
- With the new moon and the nightmare descending to engulf the normal realm, select women again begin to be impregnated with potential Great One offspring. Iosefka and that whore chick who starts with an "A" were two such women. Hence, why you obtain powerful umbilical cords upon killing them.
- Thing is though, your hunter had been obtaining insight throughout his quest. The Madman's Knowledge items say when you inspect that they contain knowledge of The Great Ones. I believe that gaining all of this insight allowed the hunter to kind of transcend the hunt and maintain awareness of what's going on. Hence why he is able to enter Yahar'gul and see all of the creatures with clarity.
- It's at this point I believe Gehrman starts to rebel a bit. Your character keeps finding references to some kind of ritual, red moons, and children, etc. and begins to kind of be guided into the nightmare.
- The Hunter fights his way through the Unseen Village (whose name makes sense now) which is the heart of the nightmare. After killing The One Reborn he is able to enter the nightmare itself and begins to really learn about The Great Ones themselves.
- He kills some of them such as Amygdala, Celestial Emissary, and Ebrietas, before entering the nightmare of Mensis (The Mensis Ritual, the summoning of the nightmare) and kills Micolash. Upon killing Micolash, the nightmare begins to fade which would explain why the sky looks a bit different. The ritual has been stopped but the nightmare hasn't completely faded away yet; it will with time.
- The hunter is then faced with Mergo's Wet Nurse who I believe to be a Great One tasked with overseeing the nightmare and of course the birth of the Great One children (duh). It engages the hunter in a last ditch effort to preserve everything that they've done. The hunter defeats the Nurse and returns to the Hunter's Dream to find it burning.
- I believe that Gehrman is essentially rebelling against The Moon Presence. The hunter had stopped the nightmare that Gehrman was forced to help bring back which greatly pleases Gehrman; this why he tells the hunter what a great job he's done upon their confrontation. Gehrman is telling his overseer to F-Off basically and he burns down the place signaling his defiance.
- When the hunter meets with Gehrman, he is offered the chance to be killed and released from this terrible purgatory after putting an end to the nightmare. If the hunter agrees, he wakes up to a normal world and may or may not remember everything. If the hunter refuses to die, then Gehrman decides he must force the fate upon the hunter and they battle.
- In the ending where you only fight Gehrman, the hunter is victorious which ushers in The Moon presence. It then makes the hunter the new caretaker of The Hunter's Dream to replace its lost slave. In this ending, I believe the hunter is forced to act as The Moon Presence's pawn like Gehrman was.
- But in the true ending, the hunter obtains incredible strength and power from consuming the umbilical cords. The Moon Presence realizes that it can't control this hunter and decides to engage him. The hunter defeats The Moon Presence and now is where it gets weird.
- I'm not sure if the hunter like takes in the Moon Presence's power and becomes a Great One himself (that weird squid thing seen at the end) or just puts an end to everything and returns to the real world. I like to think that the hunter was able to wake up free from everything and that squid was maybe the Doll's long-lost child returning to her or something before the dream disappears. Kind of like reuniting the afterlife. If he is indeed the squid, that would mean the hunter has basically ascended to become a pseudo-godlike figure.
Well that certainly took a long time to write up haha. I'm with everyone that the so-called "bad ending" is probably the most satisfying. It would definitely be if it came with a final battle.
really cool theories. i'm curious if some of the lore in the official guide will agree.
but the True Ending is explained in the trophy description. the description actually explained what happened to you. Kinda rare in these games but at least we don't need to speculate about that.
Beelzebufo
Banned
One problem I've noticed with the the extremely long post is that it confuses Willem with Laurence. It's Willem in the chair, the "lost master" of Byrgenwyrth. Stopped reading after that.
Great post, Zukkoyaki. Most of the theories I agree with, and seem to fit the narrative of the game as I experienced. And without a doubt, the slug like creature at the end is you, after slaying the Moon's Presence.
Wow.
Wow.
Beelzebufo
Banned
The next few seemed to build on the "Laurence is Willem" idea, so it didn't seem worth it.
They didn't, just interchange the name in your head and it's good.
I go back and forth on Rom working against the Nightmare, though. When I first read the note about the Spider of Byrgenwerth keeping the rituals hidden and the guy writing the note apparently disapproved of it, I thought Rom was against the others as well....
....but I dunno, the veil seems too useful for the Nightmare. I dunno. That and if Rom is against the others, does that mean Ebrietas is as well if she's trying to revive him? These questions, man.
***
Also, a separate query of my own. The sack / Santa tough enemies. At a certain point, they're all killed and replaced by undead looking monstrous werewolves. WHY / What's that about?
So I just realized that the Yharnam in 'Shadows of Yharnam' is probably the woman, not the city. We're they her bodyguards of sorts while she was pregnant with a Great One? We also find more of them in the Nightmare of Mensis, where they could be protecting either Yharnam or her child. Mergo's Wet Nurse also bears a strong similarity to the Shadows, and acts as a bodyguard for Mergo.
theSlacker
Member
I'm not sure they even try to hide it. Like it seems to me that the slow realization in the game is that that is just what that church is about and everyone in the area knows it and doesn't think it is weird. Like they have actual legitimacy behind their beliefs, the stuff does give power and heal so why would it be hidden to their people, it's just us as an outsider to that society goes into it thinking that a "church" would be something worshiping the kind of things we do. When you go back and look at other things, like Father Gascoigne's gear it even mentions that the local church doesn't have the rank of "Father" as to why it is clear he is from another area.
Eileen also mentions the Dream in various conversations, and not being able to access it anymore. What causes hunters to be able to come and go is unknown.
This is some solid work man thanks for sharing.
our hunter at that point of the story doesn't know that, no?
(speculation time)
as for the wheelchair guy, I dunno, he seemed half dead already and all but given up hope, and we don't know what he really wants, maybe he wanted Rom dead as well?
Yeah that makes sense, with blood ministrations being an analogue for the "Innsmouth Look"
Yeah I was a bit torn on what the item meant by "this all started", whether that related to Arianna or the entire "thing". It does make more sense given your theory above that it simply relates to Arianna as she does go on about her corrupted blood. I dont think Oedon being formless really matters because as you said the women seem to get impregnated more or less via evil wiggly faced god telepathy.
Cool theory, a few things stood out at me
I don't think the Great Ones are almost celestial beings, I think the games fairly explicit about them being flat out aliens
The Choir is the highest ranking part of the church (and the highest point for that matter)
I dont really buy the Moon Presence being behind a series of sinister machinations, it seems the most mindless of the Great Ones and I dont think theres any in game support of it being a Great One either
But we know the realm that Micloash is the host off (and I think they mean host more in the "Guy who welcomes" you, not "Guy who its in") is dreamt/created by Mensis and that what the Moon Presence conceived was the Hunters Dream (all in item descriptions)
Again I dont think the Moon Presence is a Great One, but even if it were the Great Ones seem implicitly capable of only having one child, every description of their children is singular so it would seem to make more sense for the other (explicitly) Great Ones who are permanently around Yharnam it seems to be behind a number of the pregnancies. I also think a lust for power is too "human" a motive for a Great One.
This seems to be implying those women were impregnated concurrently? But the Queen was a Pthumerian, part of an ancient (possibly pre-human) race that had died out before the modern city of Yharnam came into being and before Gehrman's wife/daughter would have been on the scene
Rom is explicitly a Great One, though also explicitly an "uplifted" one. He doesnt so much drive the Nightmare away, he just makes it so that those without enough eyes/insight cant see it. Which doesnt really seem to be at odds with the other Great Ones
I dont really buy Wilhelm being obsessed to the point of ruin with the Great Ones, while we dont have a lot to go on he seems to be the most cautious of the major NPC's when it comes to interacting with the Old Blood/Great One essence.
This doesnt make a lot of sense to me either, if the Moon Presence wanted Rom gone why on earth would he trap Gehrman (the first and arguably best of the hunters) in the Hunters Dream and have him try and find competent people (how if hes trapped in the hunters dream?) as opposed to simply sending him after Rom?
Wilhelm seems fairly out of it and why would he buy into the Moon Presence's plan?
Not a big fan of the idea that all the various realms are one cohesive nightmare created by the Moon Presence and the other Great Ones are basically "working" for it. We know Kos has a position of prominence among the Great Ones but even then the idea of them all working together runs contrary to the games inspiration and setting I feel.
I just realized a hunter "having dreams" means reviving. Djura says to you "you've got all night to dream" if you befriend him and spare the beasts of Old Yharnam. But more importantlywhen you meet Eileen on the steps of the Grand Cathedral, she says "no more dreams for me, this is my last chance." So a hunter who still dreams is a Hunter who can go in and out of reality repeatedly, even after dying. :O
That old Wheelchair guy is probably Wilhelm and he specifically warned Laurence against the old blood. "Fear the Old Blood" He does not want them to use the blood of the Great ones. On one of the runes it is mentioned that Provst Wilhelm would have been proud about the runes not using any blood.
He would want the Great Ones to be killed off. Now as to why he is in a vegitative state, The Great Ones could have had him driven insane, leaving him unable to stop their advances.
Also to note, that the Veil that seperates the two realities seems to be lifted after you Kill Rom.
Most likely Rom was working with the Great ones, hiding them from plain sight, except for those with the brightest of minds and knowledge (Players with high Insight for instance)
I can get behind that!
as for Wilhelm, if you look closely, he had some sorta disease on his body, possibly from all that blood spinning
I agree with the former but I'm not so sure about the latter. Wilhem was show to be cautious of the Old Blood but at the same time he spend a considerable amount of time researching it. I think he was interested in the Great Ones as research subjects buy wary of their corrupting effect. His vegetative state is likely as a result of his failed attempt to ascend to something akin to a Great One
"Provost Willem sought the Cord in order to elevate his being and thoughts to those of a Great One, by lining his brain with eyes. The only choice, he knew, if man were to ever match Their greatness." -Iosefka
I certainly dont think its due to a directed act of malice on the part of the Great Ones, who seem generally oblivious to humanity and while possibly malign dont really seem to be steepling their fingers and plotting the downfall of crippled old men
out of respect, I go outta my way to type it the way the post I'm quoting is typing it lol
If truly what the creation of Hunter's Dream is from Gerhman making communion and pact with Moon Presence, that only mean the True Ending is the goal that it's sought all along, making the theory about Moon Presence as cosmic womb make more sense. In short, whatever you do, you fall into the machination of the Moon Presence lol
Iosefka's imposter also says "I can feel it writhing around in my head" when she's in labor on the clinic table.
If you approach her when she's in labor from the clinic lantern with the door closed, you can hear a baby crying along with her moaning in pain. It's creepy as all hell.
This would fall in line with the "out of your hands you've been a pawn for a greater persons plans" ending of DS. That seems to be a theme for FromSoft's ARPGS.
Ordinaryundone
Member
Basic Timeline:
-Phtumeran civilization flourishes after making contact with Great One Ebreitas. Blood ministration discovered, civilization collapses in the wake of the birth of the new Great One Mergo, sired by Queen Yharnam (white dress lady). Great Ones cannot birth their own Children, a surrogate must be chosen.
-City of Yharnam begins, built over top of Pthumeran civilization. Scholars at the college of Byrgenwerth (Willem, Laurence, Gherman, Rom) delve deep into the ruins, searching for secrets of the race. They make first contact with Ebreitas, who teaches them blood ministration.
-Willem and the others attempt to beseech the Great Ones for power and insight. Rom is transformed into an immature Great One, but Willem is unsatisfied with the results.
-Laurence and Gherman split from Byrgenwerth and found The Healing Church, dedicated to studying and administering blood ministration. It's discovered to basically be a panacea and The Church, and Yharnam, flourish. It's not without side effects. The Plague of Beasts is discovered and The Hunt is founded. At this point the Church has split into 3 groups: The Doctors, The Hunters (led by Gherman) and the Choir. They are dedicated to blood ministration study, the Hunt, and the study of the cosmos/Great Ones respectively. A secret society known as Mensis grows within the ranks of the Choir, dedicated to summoning or creating their own Great One.
-The Hunts begin to grow worse and worse as the plague spreads, culminating in the first Blood Moon. Blood Moons are the time when circumstances are correct for a Great One to be born, and causes a violent reaction in the Blood resulting in a greater number of Beasts. The situation grows so dire that The Church quarantined Old Yharnam, and burnt it to the ground to stop the Beasts. Gherman's wife/daughter dies, having been chosen as a Great One surrogate mother, and his grief is absolute. He goes mad, constructing the doll, and is enraptured in the Nightmare by a Great One called The Moon Presence.
-Willem uses Vacuous Rom, now grown but no more useful to him, to seal the Blood Moon and the boundary between Nightmare and Yharnam. He then tries one last ditch effort to gain insight by putting eyes on his brain. Whatever that entails, it doesn't work, and Willem is left a gibbering wreck while the school continues without him.
-Byrgenworth scholars continue with increasingly dangerous and foolhardy attempts to commune with Great Ones. Byrgenworth ends up summoning Great One Amygdala, in the process losing their lecture hall to Nightmare. The Church seals the path to the now abandoned school and forbids entry.
-Mensis begins blood sacrifice rituals to prepare to summon a Great One.
-You arrive in Yharnam, and receive blood ministration. The Hunt begins again.
-Phtumeran civilization flourishes after making contact with Great One Ebreitas. Blood ministration discovered, civilization collapses in the wake of the birth of the new Great One Mergo, sired by Queen Yharnam (white dress lady). Great Ones cannot birth their own Children, a surrogate must be chosen.
-City of Yharnam begins, built over top of Pthumeran civilization. Scholars at the college of Byrgenwerth (Willem, Laurence, Gherman, Rom) delve deep into the ruins, searching for secrets of the race. They make first contact with Ebreitas, who teaches them blood ministration.
-Willem and the others attempt to beseech the Great Ones for power and insight. Rom is transformed into an immature Great One, but Willem is unsatisfied with the results.
-Laurence and Gherman split from Byrgenwerth and found The Healing Church, dedicated to studying and administering blood ministration. It's discovered to basically be a panacea and The Church, and Yharnam, flourish. It's not without side effects. The Plague of Beasts is discovered and The Hunt is founded. At this point the Church has split into 3 groups: The Doctors, The Hunters (led by Gherman) and the Choir. They are dedicated to blood ministration study, the Hunt, and the study of the cosmos/Great Ones respectively. A secret society known as Mensis grows within the ranks of the Choir, dedicated to summoning or creating their own Great One.
-The Hunts begin to grow worse and worse as the plague spreads, culminating in the first Blood Moon. Blood Moons are the time when circumstances are correct for a Great One to be born, and causes a violent reaction in the Blood resulting in a greater number of Beasts. The situation grows so dire that The Church quarantined Old Yharnam, and burnt it to the ground to stop the Beasts. Gherman's wife/daughter dies, having been chosen as a Great One surrogate mother, and his grief is absolute. He goes mad, constructing the doll, and is enraptured in the Nightmare by a Great One called The Moon Presence.
-Willem uses Vacuous Rom, now grown but no more useful to him, to seal the Blood Moon and the boundary between Nightmare and Yharnam. He then tries one last ditch effort to gain insight by putting eyes on his brain. Whatever that entails, it doesn't work, and Willem is left a gibbering wreck while the school continues without him.
-Byrgenworth scholars continue with increasingly dangerous and foolhardy attempts to commune with Great Ones. Byrgenworth ends up summoning Great One Amygdala, in the process losing their lecture hall to Nightmare. The Church seals the path to the now abandoned school and forbids entry.
-Mensis begins blood sacrifice rituals to prepare to summon a Great One.
-You arrive in Yharnam, and receive blood ministration. The Hunt begins again.
Holy hell I love you guys :3
Beelzebufo
Banned
Berlin is a part of Gehrmany, and he's best friends with Wilhelm.
So anyway, if you look at it, it think it's safe to say that the spiders/anything with tons of eyes was ascended (Rom, Amygdala, mobs), while Ebreitas, Moon Presence, Mergo's Wetnurse, etc are OG Great Ones. Don't know where that puts Celestial Emmisary though.
I would assume Moon Presence is a Great One though, although there's nothing really sea-creaturey about it, it has more similarities with the messengers and The One Reborn. But the One Reborn doesn't make sense anyway.