Support NeoGAF

[LiK]

Adella was at the bottom of the Gaol crying. She wouldn't talk to you unless you were in Black Church attire.

ah, yea, i tried going back to her post-Rom after i got the outfit but she wasn't there. oh well

 

[Messofanego]

My worst experience with the aliens was with the two "magician types" in the forbidden woods valley.

They were harder than the boss....

The ones with hairs and shoot projectiles? Don't they have low health too (200ish), so you can lock on and throw a Molotov cocktail or just time it and charge them?

Or are you thinking of different aliens?

 

[GorillaJu]

Hmmm that makes sense. What's Oedon then? He's connected to blood right? Is he connected with the beast plague as well?

Oedon seems to be the essence of the old blood, going by the description on the Oedon rune in the Cathedral Ward.

 

[Gun Animal]

Just finished the game and all I want to say is what a dumb, predictable and probably most popular Souls ending the Honoring Wishes ending is. They all sound pretty dumb truth be told from a quick wiki'ing though.

The biggest thing holding FROM's Soulslike games back is the recycling of narrative beats.

 

[convo]

Just finished the game and all I want to say is what a dumb, predictable and probably most popular Souls ending the Honoring Wishes ending is. They all sound pretty dumb truth be told from a quick wiki'ing though.

I think they are less ambiguous than the Dark souls endings, and people were somehow able to get a whole lot out of those. Considering the turn for cosmic horror in the game it is still quite enjoyably to think what role Gerhman had to play in all this.

 

[Deified Data]

I'm not interested in spoilers but I thought I'd ask this here since it has a better chance of being answered.

I had it spoiled for me that BB has multiple endings, but I'm curious how they implement them. Is it a Demon's/Dark Souls-style multiple choice with different outcomes, or is it a Persona-style "we have multiple endings that are differentiated only by the level of their completeness", with only one True Ending?

Reason I ask is I also had it spoiled for me how to obtain the "True Ending" and I feel obliged to pursue that now, unless the other endings have any merit to them.

I realize this is a spoiler thread but I'd appreciate as vague an answer as possible, thanks.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Maybe any enemy boss with a lot of eyes was once a human/not originally aliens? The singing things have extra eyes, Willem tries to collect eyes, Rom has lots of eyes. Compare that to Erbreitas and Moon Presence, and obviously Oedon who's formless.

It's definitely weird that Moon Presence doesn't seem to have eyes at all lol

 

[convo]

Maybe any enemy boss with a lot of eyes was once a human/not originally aliens? The singing things have extra eyes, Willem tries to collect eyes, Rom has lots of eyes. Compare that to Erbreitas and Moon Presence, and obviously Oedon who's formless.

ENB had mentioned that insight was a pun on having eyes on the inside of your head, makes you more perceptive to the real horrors out there.

 

[Beelzebufo]

ENB had mentioned that insight was a pun on having eyes on the inside of your head, makes you more perceptive to the real horrors out there.

Yeah, and like people actually collect eyes too right? So why do some great ones have tons of eyes but others don't? Can Moon Presence not see Amygdala because it doesn't have eyes?

Also, what's this about Amygdala being dead?

Also, Celesial Emmisary still seems relatively disconnected to me. It can spawn more of its friends, and it's name makes it sound like it was sent to earth to make contact if that makes sense (and reproduce/take over, maybe like with Iosafka?) Either that or its the original person who made contact with the Great Ones, but isn't that Willem?

 

[HeelPower]

The ones with hairs and shoot projectiles? Don't they have low health too (200ish), so you can lock on and throw a Molotov cocktail or just time it and charge them?

Or are you thinking of different aliens?

yeah them...they owned me when I first met them.lol.

Most will have missed them the first time through. Give people some time to discover ,it took years for people to understand the npcs in Dark souls.

I just love the way you could find so many of them behind closed doors in the city...adds sooo much to the place and you could relate more to their terrible situation.

They were all well voiced too.

 

[Aztechnology]

Wait, insight literally means you're getting eyes inside your head? Didn't some lore note say that Willem wanted to line the inside of his skull with eyes or some shit.

"When you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you"

 

[Astral]

Where exactly does the game indicate who the Pthumerians are?

 

[theSlacker]

Kinda separate from the recent discussion thread, but has anyone else noticed how the Cainhurst Summons is found on the operating table that you begin the game on. At first I didn't really notice that and just thought the fact that it was listed as being "addressed to you" was just some magic or mystery thing going on. But since it was on the place where you started it could mean that you dropped it and that you had some sort of previous connection to Cainhurst. No other references to that though so IDK.

 

[convo]

The biggest thing holding FROM's Soulslike games back is the recycling of narrative beats.

These games have a theme of crushing you and being cryptic, so endings reflect on how your choices are a moot point in the scheme of the world. They like cycles since it's a core philosophy in Buddhism, as common in Japanese games as a generic christian prayer in games and movies in the west and also east. If they make a game where the player has achieved a universe shattering irreversible impact on things, it's gonna be the last in the series. Dark souls 3 can have loose ends tied up if they want to put an end to it all.

 

[ExVicis]

Maybe any enemy boss with a lot of eyes was once a human/not originally aliens? The singing things have extra eyes, Willem tries to collect eyes, Rom has lots of eyes. Compare that to Erbreitas and Moon Presence, and obviously Oedon who's formless.

It's definitely weird that Moon Presence doesn't seem to have eyes at all lol

That seems correct when you also consider Mergo's Wet Nurse has none.

What I thought was interesting was those Fly guys at Byrgenwerth. I realized that was probably the first attempt by someone to ascend humanity to the level of a Great One via eyes.

 

[Foffy]

Do we have any idea on what caused this connection between the Great Ones and the people of Yharnam? I imagine the Choir is now an area between time and space, perhaps the "first contact" zone between the Church and these creatures, which connects to two seperate Nightmare planes, and it's also a place forbidden to visit which I imagine would be because it may not match what the Church is telling its people. On top of that, it would appear Ebretias caused the Vilebloods to be a thing, as the one above ground is worshipping an area that can revive the Vileblood Queen/Queen of Cainhurst if she dies in a certain way. Rom also seems to offer something to the people of Bergynwerth with a vision, but perhaps it's the vision to see the Amygdalas, the "guardians" of the city. That vision breaks when the Rom above ground is killed.

Perhaps something underground is the connection? Gerhman and the city seem to have a grand fondness of the underground ruins as a type of hunter pilgrimage, and so far seems to be fruitless save for what may be most players final encounter down there, with the Queen of Yharnam.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Do we have any idea on what caused this connection between the Great Ones and the people of Yharnam? I imagine the Choir is now an area between time and space, perhaps the "first contact" zone between the Church and these creatures, which connects to two seperate Nightmare planes. On top of that, it would appear Ebretias caused the Vilebloods to be a thing, as the one above ground is worshipping an area that can revive the Vileblood Queen/Queen of Cainhurst if she dies in a certain way. Rom also seems to offer something to the people of Bergynwerth with a vision, but perhaps it's the vision to see the Amygdalas, the "guardians" of the city.

Perhaps something underground is the connection? Gerhman and the city seem to have a grand fondness of the underground ruins as a type of hunter pilgrimage.

They first met way in the past with the Pthumerians.

 

[Soulflarz]

I think you mean Ludwigs R2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sx2b3e2leE#t=64

Ludwigs R2 was enjoyably useful. I mean the charge up was crazy, but the damage output could stun practically everything.

 

[Foffy]

They first met way in the past with the Pthumerians.

Perhaps the Yharnam Queen caused this connection. At least that's my guess, as you see her in the game at least two mandatory times, and she's one of the games final optional boss.

She is the same height as the Phumerians too, as she's as tall as the Pthumerian bosses found underground. Perhaps she was the source, and probably why the Great Ones use women as vessels to birth more monsters.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Haha just saw the secret ending for the first time. That makes no sense at all haha.

Is the Doll a great one maybe? That's why you can only see her moving when you have insight? But that doesn't really make sense either. Doesn't the doll only exist in the dream? But the house isn't on fire and you kill the moon which apparently made the dream and ahhhhhhhh

Perhaps the Yharnam Queen caused this connection. At least that's my guess, as you see her in the game at least two mandatory times, and she's one of the games final optional boss.

She is the same height as the Phumerians too, as she's as tall as the Pthumerian bosses found underground. Perhaps she was the source, and probably why the Great Ones use women as vessels to birth more monsters.

Oh yeah, I think she was the first one way back then, and where they get the blood from and what the city was named after. They even call it "Yharnam Blood"

Thinking about this stuff makes my head hurt though, because then you have to think about the hunters in the context of her even though the moon and ahhh

Too much insight.

 

[Uthred]

Do we have any idea on what caused this connection between the Great Ones and the people of Yharnam? I imagine the Choir is now an area between time and space, perhaps the "first contact" zone between the Church and these creatures, which connects to two seperate Nightmare planes, and it's also a place forbidden to visit which I imagine would be because it may not match what the Church is telling its people. On top of that, it would appear Ebretias caused the Vilebloods to be a thing, as the one above ground is worshipping an area that can revive the Vileblood Queen/Queen of Cainhurst if she dies in a certain way. Rom also seems to offer something to the people of Bergynwerth with a vision, but perhaps it's the vision to see the Amygdalas, the "guardians" of the city. That vision breaks when the Rom above ground is killed.

Perhaps something underground is the connection? Gerhman and the city seem to have a grand fondness of the underground ruins as a type of hunter pilgrimage, and so far seems to be fruitless save for what may be most players final encounter down there, with the Queen of Yharnam.

The Vilebloods origin is spelt out elsewhere in the game pretty explicitly, someone stole forbidden blood from Bergynwerth and brought it to Cainhurst. I think the reason you have the Choir is because they wanted to get closer to the Great Ones post contact, which seems to be traced back to the Pthumerians. The church also seems to be pretty open about , or terrible at hiding, the great one connection, the great staircase leading into the grand cathedral is lined with statues of wiggly faced gods after all.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Also, what the hell are the messengers?

 

[Foffy]

Haha just saw the secret ending for the first time. That makes no sense at all haha.

Is the Doll a great one maybe? That's why you can only see her moving when you have insight? But that doesn't really make sense either. Doesn't the doll only exist in the dream? But the house isn't on fire and you kill the moon which apparently made the dream and ahhhhhhhh

I imagine the Dream is an illusion of sorts. It's actually based off of an actual area in Yharnam that has been abandoned, which also contains the Doll. My guess is that Gehrman or the Moon Presence itself is using the Dream as a means of getting someone to accomplish a goal for the Moon Presence, perhaps to become a vessel. Your character is 'marked' and connected this - it's why you survive death out in the world and everyone else may die forever, as you are connected with the Messengers, which appear to be vessels associated with the Dream - so you're being bullshitted about curing your blood curse with Pureblood, but are very likely being used to accomplish a deeper goal of sorts, similarly to how you were told in both Dark Souls games that there was a cure to the curse of the Darksign, but one doesn't exist.

 

[Beelzebufo]

I imagine the Dream is an illusion of sorts. It's actually based off of an actual area in Yharnam that has been abandoned, which also contains the Doll. My guess is that Gehrman or the Moon Presence itself is using the Dream as a means of getting someone to accomplish a goal for the Moon Presence, perhaps to become a vessel. Your character is 'marked' and connected this - it's why you survive death out in the world and everyone else may die forever, as you are connected with the Messengers, which appear to be vessels associated with the Dream - so you're being bullshitted about curing your blood curse with Pureblood, but are very likely being used to accomplish a deeper goal of sorts, similarly to how you were told in both Dark Souls games that there was a cure to the curse of the Darksign, but one doesn't exist.

But you're never told Paleblood will cure your curse, you accept the Hunter's Contract because of the Paleblood!

 

[Foffy]

But you're never told Paleblood will cure your curse, you accept the Hunter's Contract because of the Paleblood!

I thought there was a spot in the Dream where one of the messengers tells you, quite literally, to seek Paleblood. Right past the Rune Workshop and near the wall with the weirdly dithered spiderweb.

 

[Shengar]

Haha just saw the secret ending for the first time. That makes no sense at all haha.

Is the Doll a great one maybe? That's why you can only see her moving when you have insight? But that doesn't really make sense either. Doesn't the doll only exist in the dream? But the house isn't on fire and you kill the moon which apparently made the dream and ahhhhhhhh

Someone in this thread post a compelling theory about The Doll being made by Gerhman in an image of someone he cares, possibly wife or daughter, and in order to give a sentience, he used the Umblical Cord which in turned explain the existence of it in the Abandoned Workshop.

There are some excellent write up in the thread, maybe I would compile them if I have the time.

 

[Beelzebufo]

I thought there was a spot in the Dream where one of the messengers tells you, quite literally, to seek Paleblood. Right past the Rune Workshop and near the wall with the weirdly dithered spiderweb.

Doesn't that just ask you to find the source of the beasts? (I'm still not sure what that is lol)

^Thats an interesting theory! Can cords do that?

It's interesting that you learn so much about Byrgenwyrth and the a Church/Choir and even Mensis but basically nothing about the Hunters and Beasts, other than that Gehrman is the first Hunter and he did it with the moon lol.

 

[The Xtortionist]

I thought there was a spot in the Dream where one of the messengers tells you, quite literally, to seek Paleblood. Right past the Rune Workshop and near the wall with the weirdly dithered spiderweb.

The note in the Dream's workshop says something along the lines of "Halt the spreading scourge of beasts, lest the night carry on forever." There a note in the clinic at the beginning of the game that says "Seek Paleblood to transcend the hunt".

 

[Shengar]

Yeah, the most discussed lore in this thread is about the Great Ones, and anything that related to them. Hunters and beasts, two things that preceded even The Healing Church, barely got any useful information on them at all despite their seemingly important role in world. I always admired how so much information we could gain in Bloodborne despite the lacking to unique boss item drop, fodders equipment and such. But it seems I have to retract that impression since the lack of numerous items hurts the information we could get on Hunters and Beasts.

 

[Gun Animal]

These games have a theme of crushing you and being cryptic, so endings reflect on how your choices are a moot point in the scheme of the world. They like cycles since it's a core philosophy in Buddhism, as common in Japanese games as a generic christian prayer in games and movies in the west and also east. If they make a game where the player has achieved a universe shattering irreversible impact on things, it's gonna be the last in the series. Dark souls 3 can have loose ends tied up if they want to put an end to it all.

You don't think it's a problem to write every new IP wi the sequels in mind? A good writer doesn't need to save ideas for sequels. Anyways, I'm not saying their next game needs to break a cycle, I'm saying it shouldn't focus on cycles at all. Instead of using a new backdrop to tell the same story, tell a new story.

 

[The Xtortionist]

Does anyone else wonder how the player character got to the Clinic in the first place? It doesn't seem to be located near the city entrance, and one would expect anyone walking the streets to be mauled by beasts and deranged townsfolk. Consider that with one of the starting clothing items that says the player "awakes to a nightmare of blood and beasts." Would I be right in recognizing this as implying that there was not a "nightmare of blood and beasts" before the player received the transfusion? Considering all that (and if I'm not off base), there may be a reasonable amount of evidence for the Yharnam the player awakes in existing outside of reality. Not a dream in the traditional sense, but some other plane of existence reserved for those with Yharnam blood. I've seen this theory thrown around, but this is just my take on it given the evidence I've seen.

Just something to think about. Thoughts?

edit - bit of a side note, but the promise of a cure-all for illnesses seems like an awfully good way to lure foreigners to Yharnam and ensure a steady supply of new hunters, doesn't it?

 

[Shengar]

Does anyone else wonder how the player character got to the Clinic in the first place? It doesn't seem to be located near the city entrance, and one would expect anyone walking the streets to be mauled by beasts and deranged townsfolk. Consider that with one of the starting clothing items that says the player "awakes to a nightmare of blood and beasts." Would I be right in recognizing this as implying that there was not a "nightmare of blood and beasts" before the player received the transfusion? Considering all that (and if I'm not off base), there may be a reasonable amount of evidence for the Yharnam the player awakes in existing outside of reality. Not a dream in the traditional sense, but some other plane of existence reserved for those with Yharnam blood. I've seen this theory thrown around, but this is just my take on it given the evidence I've seen.

Just something to think about. Thoughts?

No, Dream in Lovecraftian Mythos doesn't necessarily mean it's outside of reality. Dream could affect someone's "real" self as well. It could overlap with multiple layer of plane and reality, especially if that dream is Great One's. And yes, that theory have been thrown a lot too in early pages. With that in mind "It's all just a dream" doesn't have any weight to it since probably what we do in the Dream already affected the "real" world as well.

 

[Foffy]

The note in the Dream's workshop says something along the lines of "Halt the spreading scourge of beasts, lest the night carry on forever." There a note in the clinic at the beginning of the game that says "Seek Paleblood to transcend the hunt".

Ah, got it backwards. Maybe Pureblood is the myth given to the infected, so they go out and engage in the hunt, which perhaps feeds the Great Ones goals. It probably allows those outside of Yharnam - like the player character - to venture into the city in the hopes for a cure, but only to play the game the Great Ones want regarding to create more Great Ones and infest more of the land.

In many ways, it is very similar to Dark Souls: one is marked with an ailment or curse, one looks for a way to get out of the circumstance, but one is kind of doomed by being afflicted. There is no way out.

 

[The Xtortionist]

Ah, got it backwards. Maybe Pureblood is the myth given to the infected, so they go out and engage in the hunt, which perhaps feeds the Great Ones goals. It probably allows those outside of Yharnam - like the player character - to venture into the city in the hopes for a cure, but only to play the game the Great Ones want regarding to create more Great Ones and infest more of the land.

In many ways, it is very similar to Dark Souls: one is marked with an ailment or curse, one looks for a way to get out of the circumstance, but one is kind of doomed by being afflicted. There is no way out.

I'd like to know who left the Paleblood note there.

 

[Shengar]

Ah, got it backwards. Maybe Pureblood is the myth given to the infected, so they go out and engage in the hunt, which perhaps feeds the Great Ones goals. It probably allows those outside of Yharnam - like the player character - to venture into the city in the hopes for a cure, but only to play the game the Great Ones want regarding to create more Great Ones and infest more of the land.

In many ways, it is very similar to Dark Souls: one is marked with an ailment or curse, one looks for a way to get out of the circumstance, but one is kind of doomed by being afflicted. There is no way out.

Pureblood as a red herring? It could be, much like how "Vallarfax" in Demon's Souls tell the enticing power of demon's souls, drawing warriors across the land to enter the fog, only to become the prey of demons.

 

[GorillaJu]

Just finished the game and all I want to say is what a dumb, predictable and probably most popular Souls ending the Honoring Wishes ending is. They all sound pretty dumb truth be told from a quick wiki'ing though.

This is fantastic and highly valuable insight.

 

[Uthred]

Just some random thoughts after reading a few item descriptions. Lets assume that Yharnam is real (leaving aside the question of Wheels for the moment). But the "mundane" reality of Yharnam is layered over by overlapping "dreams", where each dream is its own distinct reality and is being dreamed by (and possibly is) a Great One. The Nightmare Frontier is Amygdala's dream, Nightmare of Mensis is Mergo's Wetnurses (or Mergo's) dream, etc.

"... And when the Great Ones descend, a womb will be blessed with child."

So a Great One descends, a particular woman is impregnated by it, a woman who has corrupt blood that makes her suitable to carry a "Child of Blood" (and be impregnated by the Great One's emanations it seems, no tentacled turkey baster in sight). This child is lost, which leaves a) the Great One wanting a surrogate child and b) a dead great one infant. The dead infant great one gets us a Cord of the Eye:

"A great relic, also known as the Cord of the Eye. Every infant Great One has this precursor to the umbilical cord."

So we can see that when born (dead) the Great One infant doesnt have a full umbilical cord they just have something that could become one.

"Provost Willem sought the Cord in order to elevate his being and thoughts to those of a Great One, by lining his brain with eyes. The only choice, he knew, if man were to ever match Their greatness." -Iosefka

"Every Great One loses its child, and then yearns for a surrogate. The Third Umbilical Cord precipitated the encounter with the pale moon, which beckoned the hunters and conceived the hunter's dream." - Abandoned Workshop

Assuming the Pale Moon is the Moon Presence, the Cord of the Eye seems to be a pre-requisite to getting an audience with the Moon Presence. The Moon Presence is not itself a Great One but seems to be a sentient transformative force (or cosmic womb if you prefer), possibly a servant or avatar of Kos, that can bring about a new Great One, the surrogate child. It would appear that there have been three abortive great one birthing attempts given the reference above to it being the third cord. The reason none of them have worked is that the cord of the eye is only one part of the umbilical cord so those using it coudnt connect proper to the cosmic womb/moon presence. Though its certainlly the key to encountering the pale moon and to uplifting oneself so it seems reasonable to assume the two are synonymous.

Without a full umbilical cord the Moon Presence couldnt give birth to a new Great One so its basically in the process of birthing something (hence the Hunters Moon and the nearness of the Moon Presence). This half born thing is basically a dream without a dreamer (Great Old One). In this case the Hunters Dream, which seems to be both the hub area and the most dominant reality/closest reality to the "real" Yharnam. The Hunter's Dream is the cause of the beasts and they cant be "vanquished" until the reality of the Hunter's Dream is supplanted by someone successfully connecting to the Moon Presence

"Handwritten scrawl: Seek paleblood to transcend the hunt." / "To escape this dreadful Hunter's Dream, halt the source of the spreading scourge of beasts, lest the night carry on forever."

Later the game more or less explicitly tells you to kill some baby Great Ones to get those sweet sweet Cord of Eyes - "Nightmarish rituals crave a newborn. Find one, and silence its harrowing cry."

That has a few holes I know, but its late and the lore feels endlessly self referential. I think it has problems but I feel the "Great One descends -> Corrupted blood woman impregnated -> child lost -> Cord of Eyes available -> call down moon presence for a shot at ascension" cycle is basically right and I think the Moon Presence as a semi-sentient Great One womb works as well. If a Great One always loses their child then it stand to reason that there must be alternate routes to Great Ones increasing in number, which would be using a full umbilical cord to attach to the Moon Presence (the true ending) or having Kos take "mercy" and give you "eyes" (Rom). So the other Great Ones either came about by similar avenues or were fully extra-terrestrial in nature. If we assume there were three birth attempts Oedon is likely the first:

"Every Great One loses its child, and then yearns for a surrogate, and Oedon, the formless Great One, is no different. To think, it was corrupted blood that began this eldritch liaison." - Arianna's Child

No idea about the second, the third was possibly whoever the Doll was modelled on and Arianna is possibly the fourth, but if so which particular Great One knocked her up? It seems unlikely to be Ebrietas, Daughter of the Cosmos, her name implies she is one of the original or "pure" Great Ones birthed somehow from Kos. The second and fourth attempts cant be Rom either and the Celestial Emissary again feels like something that came down from outside. Which would leave Amygdala (who's all over the shop - are there lots that look like it or are they all it?) and Mergo's Wet Nurse (though that name doesnt really scream procreation).

 

[Yurt]

as with all the Souls games, we'll know much more about the story in the upcoming DLCs! I'm already hyped as hell


anyway, that was Laurence's skull behind Amelia, wasn't it? And it wasn't human so he clearly turned into a beast and died for whatever reason afterwards (his skull seemed to be cracked though)

And we see Amelia either praying for him or to him? And we know how that turned out

so he's just another Church priest that turned into a beast in the end then, and I don't think there's any more to it.


Regarding Yharnam (but admittedly mostly just post-Rom), I was getting Berserk's Eclipse vibes ALL game, so maybe that was kinda what it was? Where dimensions or realities are colliding with each other and in the end something more emerges from the ritual, a Great One/Griffith. GUYS we should make more links to Berserk's lore because we know how much that influenced From Software


edit: some nice theories over here too

 

[Zukkoyaki]

Long Post Incoming

Okay. I just finished the game and got the true ending. Out of curiosity, I looked up the other endings for reference along with some of what other people think happened so I could piece together my thoughts on the story. I apologize in advance if I forget a character's name or leave things out. This is all merely conjecture like everyone else's, that's pretty much all we have to go by when a story is this obtuse. I also apologize for any spelling and grammatical mistakes. No offense friends, but I'm not going to treat this like a college essay or anything

- The Great Ones were an ancient race of almost celestial beings that made contact with primitive humans. Hence them being referred to as "the gods" why we see statues and monuments that resemble them.

- Byrgenwerth was a research facility that was established upon discovering a labyrinth containing the remains of some Great Ones.

- There were a few names discovered throughout the game and the only one I can remember is Laurence who I believe to be the dude in the rocking chair right before your fight Rom. He and a few others were the ones that established Byrgenwerth and began investigating and trying to make contact with the Great Ones. Perhaps, even try to harness some of their power within themselves.

- Their research of The Great Ones became the early foundation of blood ministration and led to the founding of Yharnam and the establishment of The Church. I believe the blood ministration was built upon the use of the old blood of The Great Ones.

- I have a theory that at some point, Laurence basically went crazy due to his obsession with trying to contact and harness the power of The Great Ones. This lead to one of his colleagues breaking off to found the village/town of Yahar'Gul to carry on the research.

- Over time, Yharnam and Yahar'Gul expanded and research on the The Great Ones continued. The early signs of the Scourge of Beasts began to pop up around this time. Gehrman, a great warrior and hunter, took it upon himself to put down these monsters before they became a problem and spread the plague.

- At some point, the Choir, or academy, or whatever organization that comprised the Lecture Hall area and the depths of Yahar'Gul managed to really tap into the power of The Great Ones; but it wasn't natural. This is why the students are horrendously deformed and I believe The One Reborn to be a failed attempt at genetically creating a Great One.

- This breakthrough drew the attention of The Moon Presence which beckoned to the normal world. I believe this being to be sinister and his plan was to merge the normal world with a nightmarish dream world of his creation and rule like a god much like the ancient Great Ones within Byrgenwerth.

- Micolash, who I presume to be some kind of ancient and powerful scholar, became a conduit for this nightmare realm. The creation and spread of this nightmare led to the red moon and the slow engulfing of the normal world. The Lecture Hall was essentially transported away from Yahar'gul and into the nightmare realm itself.

- Within this nightmare, it's my theory that The Moon Presence essentially impregnated several women (who are selected for whatever reason) in hopes of creating new Great Ones to further spread his influence within this world.

- I believe that one of these women was the Queen who was impregnated with "Mergo". Mergo was lost for some reason, and this combination of loss of child and strange contact with The Moon Presence resulted in her being restless for all eternity. She comes out in particular during Red Moons.

- I believe the other woman was Gehrman's wife. My theory is that she was impregnated and either died in unholy labor or was killed mercifully (along with the child) by Gehrman. This is why there was an umbilical cord in the old workshop. I believe the doll is modeled after his wife.

- At some point before the nightmare could spread very far, Rom somehow was able to drive the nightmare away and keep it sealed. I'm not sure if Rom himself is a Great One or a powerful being who somehow gained power equal to one. If he is indeed a Great One, he must be in opposition to the others.

- After that was done, Yharnam and The Church expanded and the practice of blood ministration spread making the city a bit of a legend. Eventually though, the overuse and dangerous experiments with the blood of The Great Ones, which I believe to be the "pale blood", lead to The Scourge of Beast overwhelming Yharnam. Overwhelming to the point that Old Yharnam had to be abandoned and sealed away. It was at this point that the Church sealed away Byrgenwerth and the Forbidden Woods knowing that it was the source of this terrible plague.

- With the Scourge becoming endemic, The Hunt, as first done by Gehrman, became a tradition within Yharnam. Great warriors and hunters would travel to the city to cleanse the place, test their meddle, and partake in a sport of sorts.

- With the original nightmare ended, The Moon Presence was left with little power to do anything. So it went after the two individuals who it had close enough contact with. The first was Laurence, original founder of Byrgenwerth and the one with a blind (pun intended, haha) obsession with The Great Ones. The second was Gehrman whose possession of the umbilical cord compelled The Moon Presence. I feel like this could be what the game means by "surrogates". Not true Great One children, but individuals that it can still use.

- I believe The Moon Presence cursed Gehrman and trapped him within the then created Hunter's Dream. I think it was Gehrman's duty to find potentially powerful hunters and use them to try and release the nightmare. Basically, he was forced to manipulate them and trap them within the Dream as a sort of purgatory. He would promise them that they could escape if they could end the Scourge of Beasts. Basically, he manipulated them under the guise of "The Hunt". He was to guide them to Byrgenwerth in hopes that one day a hunter could defeat Rom and release the nightmare once again.

- Laurence, again, the dude in the rocking chair at Byrgenwerth, was to meet hunters as they arrived and direct them to the lake to face Rom.

- So basically, your hunter becomes trapped in the Hunter's Dream and battles his way to Byrgenwerth believing it to be the root of the Scourge of Beasts. There he battles and defeats Rom accidentally unleashing the nightmare. That's why he sees the white queen, her soul is "unleashed" a bit.

- With the new moon and the nightmare descending to engulf the normal realm, select women again begin to be impregnated with potential Great One offspring. Iosefka and that whore chick who starts with an "A" were two such women. Hence, why you obtain powerful umbilical cords upon killing them.

- Thing is though, your hunter had been obtaining insight throughout his quest. The Madman's Knowledge items say when you inspect that they contain knowledge of The Great Ones. I believe that gaining all of this insight allowed the hunter to kind of transcend the hunt and maintain awareness of what's going on. Hence why he is able to enter Yahar'gul and see all of the creatures with clarity.

- It's at this point I believe Gehrman starts to rebel a bit. Your character keeps finding references to some kind of ritual, red moons, and children, etc. and begins to kind of be guided into the nightmare.

- The Hunter fights his way through the Unseen Village (whose name makes sense now) which is the heart of the nightmare. After killing The One Reborn he is able to enter the nightmare itself and begins to really learn about The Great Ones themselves.

- He kills some of them such as Amygdala, Celestial Emissary, and Ebrietas, before entering the nightmare of Mensis (The Mensis Ritual, the summoning of the nightmare) and kills Micolash. Upon killing Micolash, the nightmare begins to fade which would explain why the sky looks a bit different. The ritual has been stopped but the nightmare hasn't completely faded away yet; it will with time.

- The hunter is then faced with Mergo's Wet Nurse who I believe to be a Great One tasked with overseeing the nightmare and of course the birth of the Great One children (duh). It engages the hunter in a last ditch effort to preserve everything that they've done. The hunter defeats the Nurse and returns to the Hunter's Dream to find it burning.

- I believe that Gehrman is essentially rebelling against The Moon Presence. The hunter had stopped the nightmare that Gehrman was forced to help bring back which greatly pleases Gehrman; this why he tells the hunter what a great job he's done upon their confrontation. Gehrman is telling his overseer to F-Off basically and he burns down the place signaling his defiance.

- When the hunter meets with Gehrman, he is offered the chance to be killed and released from this terrible purgatory after putting an end to the nightmare. If the hunter agrees, he wakes up to a normal world and may or may not remember everything. If the hunter refuses to die, then Gehrman decides he must force the fate upon the hunter and they battle.

- In the ending where you only fight Gehrman, the hunter is victorious which ushers in The Moon presence. It then makes the hunter the new caretaker of The Hunter's Dream to replace its lost slave. In this ending, I believe the hunter is forced to act as The Moon Presence's pawn like Gehrman was.

- But in the true ending, the hunter obtains incredible strength and power from consuming the umbilical cords. The Moon Presence realizes that it can't control this hunter and decides to engage him. The hunter defeats The Moon Presence and now is where it gets weird.

- I'm not sure if the hunter like takes in the Moon Presence's power and becomes a Great One himself (that weird squid thing seen at the end) or just puts an end to everything and returns to the real world. I like to think that the hunter was able to wake up free from everything and that squid was maybe the Doll's long-lost child returning to her or something before the dream disappears. Kind of like reuniting the afterlife. If he is indeed the squid, that would mean the hunter has basically ascended to become a pseudo-godlike figure.


Well that certainly took a long time to write up haha. I'm with everyone that the so-called "bad ending" is probably the most satisfying. It would definitely be if it came with a final battle.

 

[convo]

You don't think it's a problem to write every new IP wi the sequels in mind? A good writer doesn't need to save ideas for sequels. Anyways, I'm not saying their next game needs to break a cycle, I'm saying it shouldn't focus on cycles at all. Instead of using a new backdrop to tell the same story, tell a new story.

As far as i can tell only one ending is an exact cycle. One ending is the hunter leaving the story by awakening from the dream and the other is becoming a little great one and who knows what that entails?It could mean a new path the world will progress into, it doesn't have to be a cycle, it could be a sign of change unless hunters defeat a moon presence and get turned into great ones on a frequent basis. The progression of the story of the game world isn't ended i agree with that, but the entire nature of the game won't allow for the story to flow like that, many Lovecraft stories are not resolved in a clean way.

A knock against the game for certain, and you will want to look for other games for different themes and story. Let's tell the rest of the industry to make games that have this kind of ambition and strong vision.

 

[Breakfast at Noon]

I find it amazing you guys are trying to figure this out because I'm more lost story wise than on Destiny lol

 

[Yurt]

Long Post Incoming

Okay. I just finished the game and got the true ending. Out of curiosity, I looked up the other endings for reference along with some of what other people think happened so I could piece together my thoughts on the story. I apologize in advance if I forget a character's name or leave things out. This is all merely conjecture like everyone else's, that's pretty much all we have to go by when a story is this obtuse. I also apologize for any spelling and grammatical mistakes. No offense friends, but I'm not going to treat this like a college essay or anything

- The Great Ones were an ancient race of almost celestial beings that made contact with primitive humans. Hence them being referred to as "the gods" why we see statues and monuments that resemble them.

- Byrgenwerth was a research facility that was established upon discovering a labyrinth containing the remains of some Great Ones.

- There were a few names discovered throughout the game and the only one I can remember is Laurence who I believe to be the dude in the rocking chair right before your fight Rom. He and a few others were the ones that established Byrgenwerth and began investigating and trying to make contact with the Great Ones. Perhaps, even try to harness some of their power within themselves.

- Their research of The Great Ones became the early foundation of blood ministration and led to the founding of Yharnam and the establishment of The Church. I believe the blood ministration was built upon the use of the old blood of The Great Ones.

- I have a theory that at some point, Laurence basically went crazy due to his obsession with trying to contact and harness the power of The Great Ones. This lead to one of his colleagues breaking off to found the village/town of Yahar'Gul to carry on the research.

- Over time, Yharnam and Yahar'Gul expanded and research on the The Great Ones continued. The early signs of the Scourge of Beasts began to pop up around this time. Gehrman, a great warrior and hunter, took it upon himself to put down these monsters before they became a problem and spread the plague.

- At some point, the Choir, or academy, or whatever organization that comprised the Lecture Hall area and the depths of Yahar'Gul managed to really tap into the power of The Great Ones; but it wasn't natural. This is why the students are horrendously deformed and I believe The One Reborn to be a failed attempt at genetically creating a Great One.

- This breakthrough drew the attention of The Moon Presence which beckoned to the normal world. I believe this being to be sinister and his plan was to merge the normal world with a nightmarish dream world of his creation and rule like a god much like the ancient Great Ones within Byrgenwerth.

- Micolash, who I presume to be some kind of ancient and powerful scholar, became a conduit for this nightmare realm. The creation and spread of this nightmare led to the red moon and the slow engulfing of the normal world. The Lecture Hall was essentially transported away from Yahar'gul and into the nightmare realm itself.

- Within this nightmare, it's my theory that The Moon Presence essentially impregnated several women (who are selected for whatever reason) in hopes of creating new Great Ones to further spread his influence within this world.

- I believe that one of these women was the Queen who was impregnated with "Mergo". Mergo was lost for some reason, and this combination of loss of child and strange contact with The Moon Presence resulted in her being restless for all eternity. She comes out in particular during Red Moons.

- I believe the other woman was Gehrman's wife. My theory is that she was impregnated and either died in unholy labor or was killed mercifully (along with the child) by Gehrman. This is why there was an umbilical cord in the old workshop. I believe the doll is modeled after his wife.

- At some point before the nightmare could spread very far, Rom somehow was able to drive the nightmare away and keep it sealed. In the process, he even sealed away a great deal of I'm not sure if Rom himself is a Great One or a powerful who somehow gained power equal to one. If he is indeed a Great One, he must be in opposition to the others.

- After the was done, Yharnam and The Church expanded and the practice of blood ministration spread making the city a bit of a legend. Eventually though, the overuse and dangerous experiments with the blood of The Great Ones, which I believe to be the "pale blood", lead to The Scourge of Beast overwhelming Yharnam. Overwhelming to the point that Old Yharnam had to be abandoned and sealed away. It was at this point that the Church sealed away Byrgenwerth and the Forbidden Woods knowing that it was the source of this terrible plague.

- With the Scourge becoming endemic, The Hunt, as first done by Gehrman, became a tradition within Yharnam. Great warriors and hunters would travel to the city to cleanse the place, test their meddle, and partake in a sport of sorts.

- With the original nightmare ended, The Moon Presence was left with little power to do anything. So it went after the two individuals who it had close enough contact with. The first was Laurence, original founder of Byrgenwerth and the one with a blind (pun intended, haha) obsession with The Great Ones. The second was Gehrman whose possession of the umbilical cord compelled The Moon Presence. I feel like this could be what the game means by "surrogates". Not true Great One children, but individuals that it can still use.

- I believe The Moon Presence cursed Gehrman and trapped him within the then created Hunter's Dream. I think it was Gehrman's duty to find potentially powerful hunters and use them to try and release the nightmare. Basically, he was forced to manipulate them. He would trap hunters within the Dream as a sort of purgatory. He would promise them that they could escape if they could end the Scourge of Beasts. Basically, he manipulated them under the guise of "The Hunt". He was to guide them to Byrgenwerth in hopes that one day a hunter could defeat Rom and release the nightmare once again.

- Laurence, again, the dude in the rocking chair at Byrgenwerth, was to meet hunters as they arrived and direct them to the lake to face Rom.

- So basically, your hunter becomes trapped in the Hunter's Dream and battles his way to Byrgenwerth believing it to be the root of the Scourge of Beasts. There he battles and defeats Rom accidentally unleashing the nightmare. That's why he sees the white queen, her soul is "unleashed" a bit.

- With the new moon and the nightmare descending to engulf the normal realm, select women again begin to be impregnated with potential Great One offspring. Iosefka and that whore chick who starts with an "A" were two such women. Hence, why you obtain powerful umbilical cords upon killing them.

- Thing is though, your hunter had been obtaining insight throughout his quest. The Madman's Knowledge items say when you inspect that they contain knowledge of The Great Ones. I believe that gaining all of this insight allowed the hunter to kind of transcend the hunt and maintain awareness of what's going on. Hence why he is able to enter Yahar'gul and see all of the creatures with clarity.

- It's at this point I believe Gehrman starts to rebel a bit. Your character keeps finding references to some kind of ritual, red moons, and children, etc. and begins to kind of be guided into the nightmare.

- The Hunter fights his way through the Unseen Village (whose name makes sense now) which is the heart of the nightmare. After killing The One Reborn he is able to enter the nightmare itself and begins to really learn about The Great Ones themselves.

- He kills some of them such as Amygdala, Celestial Emissary, and Ebrietas, before entering the nightmare of Mensis (The Mensis Ritual, the summoning of the nightmare) and kills Micolash. Upon killing Micolash, the nightmare begins to fade which would explain why the sky looks a bit different. The ritual has been stopped but the nightmare hasn't completely faded away yet; it will with time.

- The hunter is then faced with Mergo's Wet Nurse who I believe to be a Great One tasked with overseeing the nightmare and of course the birth of the Great One children (duh). It engages the hunter in a last ditch effort to preserve everything that they've done. The hunter defeats the Nurse and returns to the Hunter's Dream to find it burning.

- I believe that Gehrman is essentially rebelling against The Moon Presence. The hunter had stopped the nightmare that Gehrman was forced to help bring back which greatly pleases Gehrman; this why he tells the hunter what a great job he's done upon their confrontation. Gehrman is telling his overseer to F-Off basically and he burns down the place signaling his defiance.

- When the hunter meets with Gehrman, he is offered the chance to be killed and released from this terrible purgatory after putting an end to the nightmare. If the hunter agrees, he wakes up to a normal world and may or may not remember everything. If the hunter refuses to die, then Gehrman decides he must force the fate upon the hunter and they battle.

- In the ending where you only fight Gehrman, the hunter is victorious which ushers in The Moon presence. It then makes the hunter the new caretaker of The Hunter's Dream to replace its lost slave. In this ending, I believe the hunter is forced to act as The Moon Presence's pawn like Gehrman was.

- But in the true ending, the hunter obtains incredible strength and power from consuming the umbilical cords. The Moon Presence realizes that it can't control this hunter and decides to engage him. The hunter defeats The Moon Presence and now is where it gets weird.

- I'm not sure if the hunter like takes in the Moon Presence's power and becomes a Great One himself (that weird squid thing seen at the end) or just puts an end to everything and returns to the real world. I like to think that the hunter was able to wake up free from everything and that squid was maybe the Doll's long-lost child returning to her or something before the dream disappears. Kind of like reuniting the afterlife. If he is indeed the squid, that would mean the hunter has basically ascended to become a pseudo-godlike figure.


Well that certainly took a long time to write up haha. I'm with everyone that the so-called "bad ending" is probably the most satisfying. It would definitely be if it came with a final battle.

I absolutely love most of this, brilliant! It's very close to my understanding of the story so I might be biased heh

The guy in the chair is Master Willem actually

Laurence might as well be Rom who took it a step too far

 

[Striek]

As far as i can tell only one ending is an exact cycle. One ending is the hunter leaving the story by awakening from the dream and the other is becoming a little great one and who knows what that entails?It could mean a new path the world will progress into, it doesn't have to be a cycle, it could be a sign of change unless hunters defeat a moon presence and get turned into great ones on a frequent basis. The progression of the story of the game world isn't ended i agree with that, but the entire nature of the game won't allow for the story to flow like that, many Lovecraft stories are not resolved in a clean way.

A knock against the game for certain, and you will want to look for other games for different themes and story. Let's tell the rest of the industry to make games that have this kind of ambition and strong vision.

Eh I'd say the true ending is cyclic as well, problem with the first is it only resolves the player situation, not the dreams.

 

[Zukkoyaki]

I absolutely love most of this, brilliant! It's very close to my understanding of the story so I might be biased heh

The guy in the chair is Master Willem actually

Laurence might as well be Rom who took it a step too far

Ooh, gotcha! There's sooo much to keep track of in this game. I'm not sure if I like or dislike it, ya know?

I'm glad you enjoyed my post as well! I sat on everything for a bit and everything mostly makes sense and I'm comfortable with it all.

All in all, I thought the story was good and very unique. Though I can't help but feel like it would have been more enjoyable if it kept the focus on the hunt and the scourge of beasts the whole time. There's something to be admired about a simple yet stellar story/premise like a hunter seeking to end a terrible curse. Still, mad props to From Software for crafting an incredible game with some of the most interesting lore I've ever seen.

 

[Shengar]

No idea about the second, the third was possibly whoever the Doll was modelled on and Arianna is possibly the fourth, but if so which particular Great One knocked her up? It seems unlikely to be Ebrietas, Daughter of the Cosmos, her name implies she is one of the original or "pure" Great Ones birthed somehow from Kos. The second and fourth attempts cant be Rom either and the Celestial Emissary again feels like something that came down from outside. Which would leave Amygdala (who's all over the shop - are there lots that look like it or are they all it?) and Mergo's Wet Nurse (though that name doesnt really scream procreation).

Nice write up, but I have my own opinion on this quoted part.

First, it seems that Arianna was knocked by Oedon. If you look closely on how her umblical cord being phrased, it's implied, if not telling outright, that Oedon, a Great One that somehow have its own tomb, yearning for a child too. Now, we don't know how Oedon could ended up in the tomb and formless like right now. It could be that its physical form or his form in certain plane died or something and now its "consciousness", possibly the only remaining aspect of Oedon, resides within its tomb. While Oedon seems can't do much with being formless, it seems that it still can exert its influence upon the world around it. Arianna after being sent to the Chapel resides there, and it's possibly within Oedon sphere of influence. Possibly the child within Arianna's originally just another normah human child, but when Arianna steps into Oedon's sphere of influence, it tries to transformed her children into its own.

About the Third Umblical Cord which is found in Abandoned Workshop, there is a theory that The Doll was made in an image of Gerhman's loved one, either daughter or wife. It is possible that Gerhman used the umblical cord to give sentience to the doll. But from the description of the cord, it seems that the cord makes Gerhman able to contanct the Pale Moon, or perhaps Moon Presence itself. From his meeting, it's quite possible that Gerhman agree to become the steward of the Hunter's Dream as the price to make Doll "awakened".

I absolutely love most of this, brilliant! It's very close to my understanding of the story so I might be biased heh

The guy in the chair is Master Willem actually

Laurence might as well be Rom who took it a step too far

But from Micolash ranting, it seems that Rom name is unchanged from when he still a mortal.

 

[Yurt]

Ooh, gotcha! There's sooo much to keep track of in this game. I'm not sure if I like or dislike it, ya know?

I'm glad you enjoyed my post as well! I sat on everything for a bit and everything mostly makes sense and I'm comfortable with it all.

All in all, I thought the story was good and very unique. Though I can't help but feel like it would have been more enjoyable if it kept the focus on the hunt and the scourge of beasts the whole time. There's something to be admired about a simple yet stellar story/premise like a hunter seeking to end a terrible curse. Still, mad props to From Software for crafting an incredible game with some of the most interesting lore I've ever seen.

Yeah I dunno how I feel about the story either, I think I'm enjoying piecing it together more than the story itself.

But from Micolash ranting, it seems that Rom name is unchanged from when he still a mortal.

yeah! Which is what led me to believe that Laurence is just simply that beast-skull behind Amelia

 

[valkyre]

I just finished the game, watched all 3 endings, and am I the only one that finds the "lame" ending of getting your head chopped off, the best one? In terms of the hunter and such. Sure the Moon Presence and Gehrmain remain and will probably attempt the same shit all over, but yeah...

 

[Yurt]

I just finished the game, watched all 3 endings, and am I the only one that finds the "lame" ending of getting your head chopped off, the best one? In terms of the hunter and such. Sure the Moon Presence and Gehrmain remain and will probably attempt the same shit all over, but yeah...

ain't nobody got time for the 'blue pill'

 

[GorillaJu]

Long Post Incoming

Awesome, awesome post. This all sounds so plausible to me and seems to fit the time line as well.

 

[Shengar]

I just finished the game, watched all 3 endings, and am I the only one that finds the "lame" ending of getting your head chopped off, the best one? In terms of the hunter and such. Sure the Moon Presence and Gehrmain remain and will probably attempt the same shit all over, but yeah...

It's bad ending if we follow Lovecraftian Motifs of the game since it means you consciously choose to be under the influence of Great Ones. In the similar manner, killing Gerhman is "good" ending because you become the servant of the Great Ones, something that usually yearned by Lovecraftian (side) characters. The true ending of course, like what I said before basically a Lovecraftian wet dream since it ascend humanity to the rank of cosmic gods.