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[VinFTW]

http://www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/...borne_prehistory_lore_theories_spoilers_many/

Mind = blown

best explanation I've seen so far.

Only iffy part is Laurence but he explains that in his edit at the end of it.

DEFINITELY worth the read.

Keep in mind, its just a rough estimate of whats going on, as you can see, when you scroll down in the Best comments, he retracts some stuff after a nice rebuttal from another user. Anxious for his edits.

Really, I just can't wait for Vaatividya to chime in.

 

[Aztechnology]

This thread makes me want to buy the darkest dungeon so badly.

 

[HeelPower]

You dont need to go into NG+, just eat the three umbilical cords and beat Gherman, when the Moon Presence shows up you can use the item that lets you port back to a lamp to port back to the Hunters dream and buy Ghermans weapon and armour then.

Thanks.

 

[Uthred]

http://www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/...borne_prehistory_lore_theories_spoilers_many/

Mind = blown

best explanation I've seen so far.

Only iffy part is Laurence but he explains that in his edit at the end of it.

DEFINITELY worth the read.

Keep in mind, its just a rough estimate of whats going on, as you can see, when you scroll down in the Best comments, he retracts some stuff after a nice rebuttal from another user. Anxious for his edits.

Really, I just can't wait for Vaatividya to chime in.

Its an interesting enough read. But as he says himself its heavy on conjecture. Too heavy in my opinion, lots of it reads like unsupported fanfiction (I dont mean that in a derogative sense). Personally my main sticking point with it is that it paints the Great Ones as specifically malevolent beings with a vested interest in the world/humanity, I find this a bit boring to be honest as it buys into the same tired good vs evil duality that the Cthulhu mythos (a clear inspiration for the game) did its best avoid. Evil gods being out to get humanity strikes me as dull and somewhat at odds with the general themes of the Cthulhu mythos which the game seems to be pushing. I think its more interesting if the Great Ones are simply extremely powerful extra-terrestrial who dont care about humanity because humanity is too insginificant to matter and who interact with humanity not out of deliberate maliciousness but simply to fulfill their own largely unkownable goals.

 

[HeelPower]

Reaching the abandoned workshop was such an amazing moment.

I really appreciate and respect that the developers at FROM want the player to work the get the full story(they never REALLY get it anyway)

Sometimes though I just wish they'd tell us more D:

Like that moment in the workshop...

What an amazing game! Leaves you wanting more and more.

 

[Flipyap]

http://www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/...borne_prehistory_lore_theories_spoilers_many/

Mind = blown

best explanation I've seen so far.

Only iffy part is Laurence but he explains that in his edit at the end of it.

DEFINITELY worth the read.

Keep in mind, its just a rough estimate of whats going on, as you can see, when you scroll down in the Best comments, he retracts some stuff after a nice rebuttal from another user. Anxious for his edits.

Really, I just can't wait for Vaatividya to chime in.

Trying to piece together a singular, linear timeline of a story that takes place between two worlds (where time doesn't seem to work the same way) doesn't sound like a very good idea.
Especially since that person seems to use the current state and mechanics of the dream world as backstory of the waking world.
The Great Ones certainly are able to influence the waking world, but I doubt that this story begins with anyone actually fighting undying monsters. Otherwise there isn't much comfort in being assured that we'll wake from this nightmare and go back to our previous nightmarish existence with its permadeath rules.

 

[Soulflarz]

So, any realistic guesses as to how much ENB will say? He has insider info, right? Vaati is the one who doesnt...?

 

[Foffy]

So, any realistic guesses as to how much ENB will say? He has insider info, right? Vaati is the one who doesnt...?

Vaati didn't work on the guide and visit From, so what would he know?

 

[ExVicis]

http://www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/...borne_prehistory_lore_theories_spoilers_many/

Mind = blown

best explanation I've seen so far.

Only iffy part is Laurence but he explains that in his edit at the end of it.

DEFINITELY worth the read.

Keep in mind, its just a rough estimate of whats going on, as you can see, when you scroll down in the Best comments, he retracts some stuff after a nice rebuttal from another user. Anxious for his edits.

Really, I just can't wait for Vaatividya to chime in.

It's interesting, not bad but he's off on a couple things besides the bit about Laurence. For example Ebrietas was never summoned, I'm almost certain she too was found inside the Labyrinth and was the first Great One the Church found. As well items hint or say that the Beast Plague predates the Church Hunters, their Workshop or even the Healing Church itself.

Edit: As well I had a thought. When you kill Rom what if it's not necessarily the veil is lifted but...you can look beyond it or it's gone for you. My reasoning being that absolutely no one else notices an Amygdala right on the side of the Cathedral Ward despite that being where all the NPCs have been hanging out. And further talking to the Doll she says "...your presence soothes, I sense the ancient echoes..." after beating Rom. I don't think anything was necessarily lifted really but something with you probably changed.

 

[Soulflarz]

*reads the reddit summary*

So, in terms of lore being discovered, is this the fastest of them all so far?

 

[GorillaJu]

ENB won't say much until the guide is out I assume. But he does know quite a lot about the lore and what's going on. In the end I think Miyazaki doesn't want it to be 100% clear and follow one singular time line that can be definitively correct. In his interview with the Guardian he talks about being a kid and reading fiction, filling in the gaps with his imagination for the parts he couldn't understand. That's probably what he wants the players to do

 

[Soulflarz]

ENB won't say much until the guide is out I assume. But he does know quite a lot about the lore and what's going on. In the end I think Miyazaki doesn't want it to be 100% clear and follow one singular time line that can be definitively correct. In his interview with the Guardian he talks about being a kid and reading fiction, filling in the gaps with his imagination for the parts he couldn't understand. That's probably what he wants the players to do

This is actually why I mildly dislike ENB knowing so much. He was our old primary source for the lore (and vaati), but I thought about it the other day...and do I want my primary source for a story that can be interpreted in certain ways to have a cheat sheet?

 

[ExVicis]

*reads the reddit summary*

So, in terms of lore being discovered, is this the fastest of them all so far?

Maybe, but there's still a lot of questions I have. Little bits like how did Gerhman know everyone that was at Byrgenwerth and was friends with them. Then you have big things like what was Gerhman's purpose at all or what actually started the Beast Plague? Everyone seems to think the Old Ones did but I was under the impression it was just something that always lurked in Humanity (at least that what an item's description and Micolash's dialogue suggest to me).

 

[Shengar]

*reads the reddit summary*

So, in terms of lore being discovered, is this the fastest of them all so far?

It's quick because people already accustomed to Miyazaki style of storytelling. When Dark Souls come out, only handful of people do this and those people are the one who did so to Demon' Souls, and their number isn't particularly great. Now people know item description in Miyazaki game is essential, everybody who play his game and engrossed sith lores pretty much doing it to Bloodborne since day one.

 

[GorillaJu]

This is actually why I mildly dislike ENB knowing so much. He was our old primary source for the lore (and vaati), but I thought about it the other day...and do I want my primary source for a story that can be interpreted in certain ways to have a cheat sheet?

Maybe, but there's still a lot of questions I have. Little bits like how did Gerhman know everyone that was at Byrgenwerth and was friends with them. Then you have big things like what was Gerhman's purpose at all or what actually started the Beast Plague? Everyone seems to think the Old Ones did but I was under the impression it was just something that always lurked in Humanity (at least that what an item's description and Micolash's dialogue suggest to me).

Agreed re: ENB. Vaati for me is just too speculative.

The beast plague is definitely a result of imbibing the old blood. An example that clarifies that best is probably Amelia, when you approach her is saying "seek the old blood... But beware the frailty of men, their spirits are weak and easily broken." Or something to that effect. Then she turns into a horrific beast.

Cleric beast and Vicar Amelia... All of the highest ranking church officers—the ones who worshipped and drank the old blood (presumably Laurence as well, if the skull on the altar is his, though he was dead before we began this hunt) turned into the biggest and nastiest beasts. The blood starved beast is nasty too, but he wasn't a church officer, he was a person receiving blood healing in an Old Yharnam ritual. ENB not-so-subtly hinted that the Blood Starved Beast hanging from the chandelier in the ritual chamber in OY was a human, and receiving healing, at the time he was chained.

 

[convo]

This thread makes me want to buy the darkest dungeon so badly.

My thoughts exactly. The significance of the chalice dungeons is quite apparent.

 

[cris7198]

Ok, this is what I have so far connecting Demon's Souls and Bloodborne (I could be wrong though)


The Demon's ending that appears to be canon is the good one, in which the Maiden in Black puts the Old One back to sleep and takes him away, so the world loses its Souls arts, no more magic and miracles, so that's why the hunters use guns and very few people can use "magic" and even that they have to use objects to do it.

IIRC the Chalice dungeons are mentioned to be the Tomb of the Old Gods by Gerhman when the tells you about them, and he says that they are deep below Yarhnam, and in Demon's when the Maiden in Black takes you to the Old One, you go from the Nexus and fall veeery deep below it.... could be something, could be nothing.

The Great Ones, what if Umbasa (the God in Demon's to be believed that created or brought the Old One to the Earth) is just another Great One, or he is THE Great One (maybe The Moon Presence?) and he is still present in Bloodborne as the source of the nightmare.

We could not be the first humans that transformed into a Great One, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffpS0ctIo60
Just look at the final boss! This guys looks waaaay too similar to how the player looks when you get the ending in which you transform into a Great One


That's what I have for now, some stuff could be wrong or not entirely correct (I'm really tired lol) let me know what you think c:

 

[Kurtofan]

I feel like I wasn't supposed to do the umbilical chord ending first? Am I the space worm at the end or...?

What happens in the other two endings?

 

[GorillaJu]

I feel like I wasn't supposed to do the umbilical chord ending first? Am I the space worm at the end or...?

What happens in the other two endings?

Yes, that's you, the next giant space Zoidberg. Treat humanity well, good doctor

 

[Kurtofan]

I won't

 

[Victrix]

I haven't gone through this whole thread, but has there been any talk of the Beasts directly opposing the Old Ones?

I'm not entirely sure the 'plague of beasts' is 'evil', for a lot of reasons. Not least of which being the Church wants Hunts for beasts, and the church is utterly corrupt.

There's also the inverse relationship between Insight and Beasthood - the greater your Insight to the cosmic horrors, the weaker your primal Beasthood.

edit: Even Djura agrees, and he seemingly managed to escape the nightmare/dream.

"Yes, very good. I no longer dream, but I was once a hunter, too."
"There's nothing more horrific than a hunt. In case you've failed to realize..."
"The things you hunt, they're not beasts. They're people."
"I should think you still have dreams? Well, next time you dream, give some thought to the hunt, and its purpose."

 

[Kurtofan]

Is Micolash the source of the Nightmare of Mensis? The corpse on the chair?

 

[Mendax]

Is Micolash the source of the Nightmare of Mensis? The corpse on the chair?

hmm he is called "host of the nightmare" so I'd say he is keeping the nightmare in place / keeping it going. Yet, his title makes me think it already existed and/or someone/something forced it onto him.

 

[Uthred]

hmm he is called "host of the nightmare" so I'd say he is keeping the nightmare in place / keeping it going. Yet, his title makes me think it already existed and/or someone/something forced it onto him.

I don't think that's the meaning of host in his name, I think it's more akin to "the guy presenting it" rather than "the guy who it's taking place in". Otherwise it doesn't really make sense that it still exists when he's defeated/wakes up (not that not making good sense is particularly rare in the story )

 

[GorillaJu]

I don't think that's the meaning of host in his name, I think it's more akin to "the guy presenting it" rather than "the guy who it's taking place in". Otherwise it doesn't really make sense that it still exists when he's defeated/wakes up (not that not making good sense is particularly rare in the story )

Gherman's dream still exists when you kill him, though. I think that is Micolash's corpse that takes you to the Nightmare of Mensis. He's wearing the same clothing.

 

[Aztechnology]

Is Micolash the source of the Nightmare of Mensis? The corpse on the chair?

Edit: Nevermind, an item description corrected me.

 

[GorillaJu]

I don't think so. I believe Mensis is a great one, and Micolash is/was one of his servants.

The Etymology of Mensis is moon, so it stands to reason that potentially what we see as the moon is actually Mensis, a great one. Which might explain beyond the art direction why it's so freaking large.

This is obviously pure speculation.

I think Mensis is a school that broke off from Byrgenwerth College. They are the 'mad men' who "toil surreptitiously to beckon the moon." I don't think the name means literally that Mensis = moon, I do think the name indicates their affiliation however.

 

[The Xtortionist]

Gherman's dream still exists when you kill him, though. I think that is Micolash's corpse that takes you to the Nightmare of Mensis. He's wearing the same clothing.

If that's his corpse, why does he care about waking up and forgetting everything? I mean, he's already dead. Or maybe he's not...or is, but doesn't realize it...

Hmm

 

[GorillaJu]

If that's his corpse, why does he care about waking up and forgetting everything? I mean, he's already dead. Or maybe he's not...or is, but doesn't realize it...

Hmm

I think he doesn't realize he's dead in our dimension.

 

[Aztechnology]

I think Mensis is a school that broke off from Byrgenwerth College. They are the 'mad men' who "toil surreptitiously to beckon the moon." I don't think the name means literally that Mensis = moon, I do think the name indicates their affiliation however.

Yea one of the Umbilical cords made me facepalm after I said that.

"Every Great One loses its child, and then yearns for a surrogate. This Cord granted Mensis audience with Mergo, but resulted in the stillbirth of their brains."

So it seems Mensis is an Organization. So the nightmare is probably just the manifestation of the insanity caused by their communication with Mergo. So my question now is, how long has Mergo been in formation?

 

[Sephiroth_GR_]

I think Mensis is a school that broke off from Byrgenwerth College. They are the 'mad men' who "toil surreptitiously to beckon the moon." I don't think the name means literally that Mensis = moon, I do think the name indicates their affiliation however.

I posted on the previous page about 2 items that caught my eye regarding the final Pthumeru Chalice Dungeon.One of which is:

Living String:

"Special material used in a holy chalice ritual.

The immense brain that Mensis retrieved from the nightmare was indeed lined with eyes on the inside, but they were of an evil sort, and the brain itself was terrible rotten.

But even still, it was a legitimate Great One, and left a relic. A living relic, at that, which is a precious thing indeed.


From the second item i get that Mother Brain is actually the remains of a Great One?

Also i think i read somewhere about lined eyes with brain regarding Master Willem...

Also who is Mensis?

From all the item descriptions do we know if Mensis is actually a person or just a group of persons at Byrgenwerth College?

 

[GorillaJu]

Mensis is definitely a group but it could have been formed by a person named "Mensis."

Maybe... "Laurence Mensis"?

 

[GorillaJu]

Yea one of the Umbilical cords made me facepalm after I said that.

"Every Great One loses its child, and then yearns for a surrogate. This Cord granted Mensis audience with Mergo, but resulted in the stillbirth of their brains."

So it seems Mensis is an Organization. So the nightmare is probably just the manifestation of the insanity caused by their communication with Mergo. So my question now is, how long has Mergo been in formation?

I think Mergo is Yharnam's baby, no? I dunno what happened to it after you slaughter it's Wet Nurse.

Btw I noticed that Queen Yharnam's baby was definitely taken from her. I think that's why she appears to be yearning toward it and toward the moon, who stole it from her. She has shackles on her wrists and her bloody stomach is wrapped in bandages. The Wet Nurse with all those blades probably sliced her open and removed it from her.

 

[Aztechnology]

I think Mergo is Yharnam's baby, no? I dunno what happened to it after you slaughter it's Wet Nurse.

Btw I noticed that Queen Yharnam's baby was definitely taken from her. I think that's why she appears to be yearning toward it and toward the moon, who stole it from her. She has shackles on her wrists and her bloody stomach is wrapped in bandages. The Wet Nurse with all those blades probably sliced her open and removed it from her.

Yea the name Mergo's Wet Nurse, would imply that Mergo was an infant. But it never tells when it was an infant. It seems it may be a nightmare from a time past, as it's possible through the corpses of members of Mensis we entered the Nightmare of Mensis. So in the "Waking World" Mergo could actually have already matured. It's hard to say.

 

[Gattsu25]

Still reading through this thread but what is the current thought on the main character's hand turning into a claw during the visceral attacks?

 

[Auctopus]

http://www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/...borne_prehistory_lore_theories_spoilers_many/

Mind = blown

best explanation I've seen so far.

Only iffy part is Laurence but he explains that in his edit at the end of it.

DEFINITELY worth the read.

Keep in mind, its just a rough estimate of whats going on, as you can see, when you scroll down in the Best comments, he retracts some stuff after a nice rebuttal from another user. Anxious for his edits.

Really, I just can't wait for Vaatividya to chime in.

I cannot stand when people just overuse romantic language to give their argument more credence. Lore explanations should always come from item descriptions or character dialogue, not just pulling stuff from nowhere 'cause you think it sounds cool.

This slowly seeped into Dark Souls after the game steadily became mainstream as people believed the game had a choose-your-own-adventure story, it isn't - there is a correct lore and there will be a correct lore for Bloodborne.

As well produced as Vaati's videos are, he is the absolute worst for it. He continually pulled lore out of his ass in his DS2 videos. Watch ENB's videos pre-DLC announcement, he correctly guess everything about Oolacile/Artorias through descriptions, dialogue and bosses before the DLC showed you.

 

[Uthred]

Gherman's dream still exists when you kill him, though. I think that is Micolash's corpse that takes you to the Nightmare of Mensis. He's wearing the same clothing.

Ah well I dont think the Hunters Dream is Gherman's dream, I think the Hunters Dream is a proto-great one brought about by Gherman's incomplete interaction with the Moon Presence. So Gherman dying or not doesnt really affect it. Though I didnt notice the corpse was wearing the same clothing. Perhaps either the "dreams" once established have an existence beyond the dreamer or perhaps every dream is both created by and is for all intents and purposes a Great One and the things we fight are just their avatars/terrestrial boies? So Amygdala basically is the Nightmare Froniter, Rom is his lake area, Mergo's Wet Nurse is the Nightmare of Mensis (where she was raising Mergo until Mensis used a cord of the eye to show up and fuck things up somehow?), the beasts and such are the GhermanxMoon Presence proto-great one bleeding into reality, etc.

 

[Karsticles]

I haven't gone through this whole thread, but has there been any talk of the Beasts directly opposing the Old Ones?

I'm not entirely sure the 'plague of beasts' is 'evil', for a lot of reasons. Not least of which being the Church wants Hunts for beasts, and the church is utterly corrupt.

There's also the inverse relationship between Insight and Beasthood - the greater your Insight to the cosmic horrors, the weaker your primal Beasthood.

edit: Even Djura agrees, and he seemingly managed to escape the nightmare/dream.

"Yes, very good. I no longer dream, but I was once a hunter, too."
"There's nothing more horrific than a hunt. In case you've failed to realize..."
"The things you hunt, they're not beasts. They're people."
"I should think you still have dreams? Well, next time you dream, give some thought to the hunt, and its purpose."

I feel like this is an important post.

 

[TheOfficeMut]

I've definitely developed ADD as I've gotten older. I can't patiently read through text in video games anymore, especially if it relates to the story. With that said, I have no idea what the hell is going on in Bloodborne, and I just got up to the boss in Byrgenwerth.

LOL

 

[Auctopus]

I haven't gone through this whole thread, but has there been any talk of the Beasts directly opposing the Old Ones?

I'm not entirely sure the 'plague of beasts' is 'evil', for a lot of reasons. Not least of which being the Church wants Hunts for beasts, and the church is utterly corrupt.

There's also the inverse relationship between Insight and Beasthood - the greater your Insight to the cosmic horrors, the weaker your primal Beasthood.

edit: Even Djura agrees, and he seemingly managed to escape the nightmare/dream.

"Yes, very good. I no longer dream, but I was once a hunter, too."
"There's nothing more horrific than a hunt. In case you've failed to realize..."
"The things you hunt, they're not beasts. They're people."
"I should think you still have dreams? Well, next time you dream, give some thought to the hunt, and its purpose."

Great stuff, this is the real shit.

 

[test_account]

Are there any theories about whos watching through the grass when you take the carriage to Cainhurst? Or is the camera just positioned like that to make it look more creepy?

 

[Uthred]

I feel like this is an important post.

Beasthood/beasts being the antithesis of Insight/the Great Ones has been brought up a few times in the thread already. The ashen plague and they way Insight vs Beasthood work certainly seem to point towards it. The bit about the beasts being people doesnt seem particularly revelatory, you know fairly early own, pre Old-Yharnam I'd say, that beasts are devolved humans.

 

[Ferr986]

oh, boy, seeing myself getting turned into a friggin squid really soured me.
Why gods can't be just human dudes in FROM games lol

 

[test_account]

Beasthood/beasts being the antithesis of Insight/the Great Ones has been brought up a few times in the thread already. The ashen plague and they way Insight vs Beasthood work certainly seem to point towards it. The bit about the beasts being people doesnt seem particularly revelatory, you know fairly early own, pre Old-Yharnam I'd say, that beasts are devolved humans.

There is a solid proof of it a bit later on in the game. If you talk to the guy through the windows at the begining of the game (he gives you a flamethrower later on), he talks about that he is sick and that he will die human. But later on in the game, if you return to that spot, the window is broken and there is a beast there. The beast only appear one time (or maybe several of times until you kill it), so its clearly that human that has turned into that beats.

 

[Jaeger]

There is a solid proof of it a bit later on in the game. If you talk to the guy through the windows at the begining of the game (he gives you a flamethrower later on), he talks about that he is sick and that he will die human. But later on in the game, if you return to that spot, the window is broken and there is a beast there. The beast only appear one time (or maybe several of times until you kill it), so its clearly that human that has turned into that beats.

Yea. That's Gilbert. He's by the first lamp you come across in the window. Its him. Its even a big hole in the window.

 

[Karsticles]

You know what I haven't seen anyone even attempt to explain?

Messengers.

Beasthood/beasts being the antithesis of Insight/the Great Ones has been brought up a few times in the thread already. The ashen plague and they way Insight vs Beasthood work certainly seem to point towards it. The bit about the beasts being people doesnt seem particularly revelatory, you know fairly early own, pre Old-Yharnam I'd say, that beasts are devolved humans.

Oh, I know, but a lot of people are treating the two like they are on the same team.

 

[Uthred]

There is a solid proof of it a bit later on in the game. If you talk to the guy through the windows at the begining of the game (he gives you a flamethrower later on), he talks about that he is sick and that he will die human. But later on in the game, if you return to that spot, the window is broken and there is a beast there. The beast only appear one time (or maybe several of times until you kill it), so its clearly that human that has turned into that beats.

Lots of stuff in the early game e.g. the antitdote description seemed to make it fairly clear as well, but yeah Gilbert is fairly definitive proof. I dont think it really changes much, just makes your Hunter seem like a bit of a bigger bastard perhaps, but considering the first people you kill in game are fairly non-bestial killing actual beasts shouldnt phase you (I mean later on you can kill a preganant woman, and presumably then root around in her belly and eat a piece of her unborn alien child. You also get to kill a newborn as well. The player character is generally pretty far from morally supportable)

You know what I haven't seen anyone even attempt to explain?

Messengers.

Messengers are a bit of a conundrum, off the top of my head (which tragically lacks eyes on the insider) they seem to function as more or less (or at least semi-) mindless servitors of a dream. They do the "busy work" to keep the dream functioning as it should.

 

[LiK]

So, any realistic guesses as to how much ENB will say? He has insider info, right? Vaati is the one who doesnt...?

no need to guess, ENB will point out lore and other info as his LP goes on. altho he's probably saving a lot of info until the guide comes out. I've noticed he's been skipping the intended way of playing certain areas by rushing through them.

Vaati knows as much as us here. He's not an insider.

i'm actually looking forward to AGS making BB videos way more. he also worked on the guide and he had soooo many great insider stories about DkS2. he'll def tell us a lot of great stuff.

 

[Jaeger]

no need to guess, ENB will point out lore and other info as his LP goes on. altho he's probably saving a lot of info until the guide comes out.

Was the Guide delayed?

 

[LiK]

Was the Guide delayed?

yea, they had to update it because of the changes in the day one patch.