Support NeoGAF

[pantsmith]

The pregnancy themes are important because they are a subversion of a traditional Christian theme, the immaculate conception, as are Bloodborne's version of communion and transubstanstiation.

Queen Yharnam is the vessel through which an Old One, my guess is Odeon, "conceived" a child. Though she lost this child, Mergo, since it is part Old God it exists somewhere out there between worlds, in ghastly form, between life and death.

This leads to two important bits:

1) Now that Yharnam has been "blessed" with divine child, she is the conduit for the Old Ones and her blood is changed. She is made immortal, and anyone who communes with her blood is granted its healing properties.

2) Clerics try to replicate this by providing their own holy blood, in the image of Yharnam herself. Furthermore, The Vileblood Queen is a crude imitation of Yharnam the Vilebloods use as their own conduit of blood healing.

To revisit Mergo, hes basically nightmare Jesus. He cant live in the real world, because he already died and is part nightmare, but he is still looked after by the Wet Nurse because hes Old One royalty.

I think he is Odeon's because Odeon is formless sans his voice and influence, and all we know of Mergo are his cries. I reckon we hear him because thats the only way we can perceive him.

So then the question: is Odeon using the Moon as his physical form? This would make sense given Mergos chamber is the Lunarium.

 

[Yurt]

Also it seems really likely that the bloodletting beast is Laurence. If Laurence started the healing church, it makes sense that bloodletting, the medical procedure of draining blood to cure illness, is required for blood ministration.

and when he's close to death he grows a tentacle on his head, which I imagine can be used for bloodletting

 

[Laughing Banana]

So, anybody else think those crosses/gravestones where you fight Gherman are the graves of other hunters hes had to put down?

If it's true... then why is it only our Hunter that can came back from "death" again and again and again and again?

I may have missed it, but is there a lore explanation for how our Hunter has basically an unlimited amount of retries?

 

[GorillaJu]

Odd did you search for the lore notes in Japanese? Maybe something was lost in translation!

It's mystifying enough in English. But I'm definitely gonna make a char on my JP copy soon. Partly because my lady friend has been watching me play it and can't understand a damn thing :lol

 

[ElFly]

If it's true... then why is it only our Hunter that can came back from "death" again and again and again and again?

I may have missed it, but is there a lore explanation for how our Hunter has basically an unlimited amount of retries?

Because he/she still has dreams.

 

[lowhighkang_LHK]

So has the collective hive-mind come to a certain agreement on certain larger themes yet? Or we still at the debating stage?

 

[Steel]

So has the collective hive-mind come to a certain agreement on certain larger themes yet? Or we still at the debating stage?

We need more eyes.

 

[Karsticles]

Has anyone tried taking Father G through the sewers to meet his daughter?

 

[GorillaJu]

Has anyone tried taking Father G through the sewers to meet his daughter?

His girl's house is in front of a shortcut so you can just go straight there from the bridge.

Never tried it though.

 

[Laughing Banana]

And as I pointed out... nothing in the game suggests that Rom protects any veil, or that there's a veil. It honestly sounds like you're just making stuff up, but you're probably just regurgitating something that someone else made up haha.

You don't even need to kill Rom to see the Great Ones for real! You just need insight. He really doesn't do anything at all except sit there and know stuff.

Here.

It's not a stretch at all that people make that connection. Especially after you kill him you can see Amygdala everywhere.

Because he/she still has dreams.

I still don't quite grasp it; what makes our Hunter more special than the ones roaming Yharnam like Eileen or Djura. Why are we still dreaming and they're not...? And how come a connection to dream makes our Hunter basically an immortal with unlimited retries....?

 

[Karsticles]

His girl's house is in front of a shortcut so you can just go straight there from the bridge.

Right, but you can't open the gate to that shortcut without going through the sewers. If you go through the sewers to open the gate, is his summon still there?

If so, what is the result?

 

[Gbraga]

Here.

It's not a stretch at all that people make that connection. Especially after you kill him you can see Amygdala everywhere.



I still don't quite grasp it; what makes our Hunter more special than the ones roaming Yharnam like Eileen or Djura. Why are we still dreaming and they're not...? And how come a connection to dream makes our Hunter basically an immortal with unlimited retries....?

They no longer dream, I suppose? They know about the doll and the Hunter's Dream, they've probably been there. We're not more special, we're just there currently and they're not, for whatever reason, I guess.

Some people think they accepted Gehrman's offer, but Gehrman says we'll forget the dream if we do so, and I really like it that way too, since it's a blue pill ending, we choose to forget all the eldritch horrors we've experienced and just keep going with our lives. Living among beasts isn't so bad compared to the shit we gain insight on later in the game.

 

[lowhighkang_LHK]

Has anyone tried taking Father G through the sewers to meet his daughter?

da fuq?

 

[Apathy]

If it's true... then why is it only our Hunter that can came back from "death" again and again and again and again?

I may have missed it, but is there a lore explanation for how our Hunter has basically an unlimited amount of retries?

If he cuts off a hunter's head they stop dreaming and can never come back to the dream (they wake up in the real world and can die again). The gravestones are past hunters that chose to have be put out of their misery by Gehrman. The curse of the dream for us is that we cannot fully die and why we respawn. The curse of the dream for Gehrman is that he is stuck in there forever (or until a suitable candidate comes alone to take his place or to end the moon presence depending on the ending)

 

[Apathy]

da fuq?

You can summon NPC's to help you with the first Cleric Beast and with BSB.

Has anyone tried taking Father G through the sewers to meet his daughter?

Someone has tried and apparently nothing happens

 

[Gattsu25]

Here.

But there are two Byrgenwerth spiders and we all know this note is referring to patches

 

[Laughing Banana]

Some people think they accepted Gehrman's offer, but Gehrman says we'll forget the dream if we do so, and I really like it that way too, since it's a blue pill ending, we choose to forget all the eldritch horrors we've experienced and just keep going with our lives. Living among beasts isn't so bad compared to the shit we gain insight on later in the game.

If he cuts off a hunter's head they stop dreaming and can never come back to the dream (they wake up in the real world and can die again). The gravestones are past hunters that chose to have be put out of their misery by Gehrman. The curse of the dream for us is that we cannot fully die and why we respawn. The curse of the dream for Gehrman is that he is stuck in there forever (or until a suitable candidate comes alone to take his place or to end the moon presence depending on the ending)

These two statements are in conflict with one another, yeah? I wonder how Eileen and Djura seem to know about the Gehrman's dream world. And also, why is our Hunter is chosen to bear this "curse"? By whom?

I am beginning to think that the old guy at the beginning may be a servant of a Great One or something, tasked to giving Yharnam blood to any person coming to the city for the possibility that "this might be the one that can be strong enough to host as a Great One surrogate."

...........playing this game as a female Hunter is a bit icky, isn't it, ewrgh.

 

[indigo-cyclops]

Finally beat it. Managed to get all three endings because of saving. I do like the submit ending, has me very intrigued.

I'm now in NG+ and decided to try the fence skip trick and went in to Iosefka's Clinic and it was eerie. There's two of her in there. One in the area where you fight her and one at the door.

Technical or on purpose? I know we assume she is an impostor by the time you meet her...

 

[Apathy]

These two statements are in conflict with one another, yeah? I wonder how Eileen and Djura seem to know about the Gehrman's dream world. And also, why is our Hunter is chosen to bear this "curse"? By whom?

I am beginning to think that the old guy at the beginning may be a servant of a Great One or something, tasked to giving Yharnam blood to any person coming to the city for the possibility that "this might be the one that can be strong enough to host as a Great One surrogate."

...........playing this game as a female Hunter is a bit icky, isn't it, ewrgh.

I think (and this is my theory) that when Gehrman says you'll forget the dream, he actually means you'll forget how to come back to the hunter's dream, as if you had to learn to get into the hunter's dream at some point. This would let Eileen's knowledge of the hunter's dream and of the doll be possible (as well as her ability to die in the real world).

As for the man at the start, if we could find out his identity or his proxy it would start fixing some of the timelines because with him things can go a few different ways and different motives. My belief is that he has some connection to Laurence but don't have enough information to back that up (a loyal servant, much like Willem has Dores and the password gatekeeper?). Gehrman knows Laurence, and and he mutters in his sleep to hurry, as if hes waiting for Laurence to come back or to save him from the Dream. One of the cords says

"Every Great One loses its child, and then yearns for a surrogate. The Third Umbilical Cord precipitated the encounter with the pale moon, which beckoned the hunters and conceived the hunter's dream."

and a note in the lecture building says

The nameless moon presence beckoned by Laurence and his associates. Paleblood."

So I think that one of Laurence's associates for the ritual was Gehrman and his summoning of the moon presence that created the hunter's dream trapped Gehrman in there. So Laurence, and any associates or loyal servants of his, continue to send in hunter's (or would-be hunters) into the Hunter's dream to see if they can save Gehrman. As you're an outsider and not a hunter (because if you were a hunter from a foreign land why would you not come with your hunter gear and weapons?). The old man says something about paleblood as if you had just asked him a question (what is paleblood? or where can i find paleblood?). How would you as a foreigner know what that is? Someone has told you to ask about it and perhaps that is the reason why you get picked to get special blood that lets you go into the hunter's dream. That was like the key word that told the starting guy you were already vetted to go in into the dream.

Again, my theory

 

[Baalzebup]

It has been bothering me for a while now, but why do we refer to all of the Cthulhu-esque creatures as "Amygdalas?" Considering what the one who sends you to the Lecture building / Nightmare Frontier says, I was under the impression that Amygdala is the name of the particular individual in NF, not the name of the creature type.

Even Patches referring to it as "Lord Amygdala" hints at it being a name of an individual, not a race or species.

They are the same race, so they are lesser amygdalas

See, to me, this doesn't make any sense. We don't call lower tier vampires "lesser draculas" just because the bigger cheese of a vampire is named Dracula. And what makes them lesser in the first place? The one who lasers you up in Yahar'gul seems to be equal in laser power, at the least, so it doesn't seem like they are weaker or anything. (I admit I haven't done any real size comparison, so that might be the "why" for lesser)

 

[Orochinagis]

It has been bothering me for a while now, but why do we refer to all of the Cthulhu-esque creatures as "Amygdalas?" Considering what the one who sends you to the Lecture building / Nightmare Frontier says, I was under the impression that Amygdala is the name of the particular individual in NF, not the name of the creature type.

Even Patches referring to it as "Lord Amygdala" hints at it being a name of an individual, not a race or species.

They are the same race, so they are lesser amygdalas

 

[Flipyap]

It has been bothering me for a while now, but why do we refer to all of the Cthulhu-esque creatures as "Amygdalas?" Considering what the one who sends you to the Lecture building / Nightmare Frontier says, I was under the impression that Amygdala is the name of the particular individual in NF, not the name of the creature type.

Even Patches referring to it as "Lord Amygdala" hints at it being a name of an individual, not a race or species.

See, to me, this doesn't make any sense. We don't call lower tier vampires "lesser draculas" just because the bigger cheese of a vampire is named Dracula. And what makes them lesser in the first place? The one who lasers you up in Yahar'gul seems to be equal in laser power, at the least, so it doesn't seem like they are weaker or anything. (I admit I haven't done any real size comparison, so that might be the "why" for lesser)

Because it's the only name we're given that can be associated with those creatures. It's no different from calling them Cthulhu-esque, but at least this way our borrowed nicknames stay within the same setting.

We'd probably call all vampires Draculas, if we didn't have a word for a vampire (see: Frankensteins).

 

[GorillaJu]

Amygdala is a term I've seen used before for Chthulu-style horror monsters. It's generally used to mean a race or species that I've seen so it was my instinct to classify them all as Amygdalas.

Rom, by the way, is definitely not the petrified spider you see at the Altar of Despair. I don't understand why people keep saying that it's Rom or a Rom corpse. It has the head of a spider, similar to Rom's head, but it's clearly an arachnid with 8 legs, where as Rom's body, and his movements, mimic a sea mammal like a walrus. He also doesn't have 8 legs, he has like 40. That's why I've been saying for a while I think "the spider" was his nick name before being uplifted to Great One status, or maybe because he was uplifted. It seems like he wasn't well liked. "Vacuous spider" sounds like an insult more so than a physical description—he's an idiotic traitor?

Don't forget Micolash says "Grant us eyes like you did the Vacuous Rom." Sounds like he was "vacuous", an idiot, before he had eyes.

 

[GwyndolinCinder]

Something i've noticed no discussion about, Gehrman praises the moon and gets the effect of the old hunter bone?

 

[Gbraga]

Something i've noticed no discussion about, Gehrman praises the moon and gets the effect of the old hunter bone?

It's a technique of the first hunters, he doesn't need to channel the bone to use it.

Amygdala is a term I've seen used before for Chthulu-style horror monsters. It's generally used to mean a race or species that I've seen so it was my instinct to classify them all as Amygdalas.

Rom, by the way, is definitely not the petrified spider you see at the Altar of Despair. I don't understand why people keep saying that it's Rom or a Rom corpse. It has the head of a spider, similar to Rom's head, but it's clearly an arachnid with 8 legs, where as Rom's body, and his movements, mimic a sea mammal like a walrus. He also doesn't have 8 legs, he has like 40. That's why I've been saying for a while I think "the spider" was his nick name before being uplifted to Great One status, or maybe because he was uplifted. It seems like he wasn't well liked. "Vacuous spider" sounds like an insult more so than a physical description—he's an idiotic traitor?

Don't forget Micolash says "Grant us eyes like you did the Vacuous Rom." Sounds like he was "vacuous", an idiot, before he had eyes.

I also think that his name was given more out of spite than an accurate description of him. I don't have much evidence to go on, so it's just a random theory, all I have is "The Byrgenwerth spider hides all manner of rituals, certain to reveal nothing, for true enlightenment need not be shared."

He became a Great One, but didn't share any of the knowledge he acquired, so they called him vacuous, but maybe it wasn't because he was incapable of sharing such knowledge, there are more reasons for that, as hinted in that note.

 

[Sayad]

Has anyone tried taking Father G through the sewers to meet his daughter?

I did through the city, nothing happens. He disappear when you try to take him through sewers so no taking him to his boss fight.

 

[Majmun]

Amygdala is a term I've seen used before for Chthulu-style horror monsters. It's generally used to mean a race or species that I've seen so it was my instinct to classify them all as Amygdalas.

I associate amygdala withe the brain amygdala myself. The part of our brain that processes emotions, especially fear. In dreams as well.

 

[MegaSackman]

The pregnancy themes are important because they are a subversion of a traditional Christian theme, the immaculate conception, as are Bloodborne's version of communion and transubstanstiation.

Queen Yharnam is the vessel through which an Old One, my guess is Odeon, "conceived" a child. Though she lost this child, Mergo, since it is part Old God it exists somewhere out there between worlds, in ghastly form, between life and death.

This leads to two important bits:

1) Now that Yharnam has been "blessed" with divine child, she is the conduit for the Old Ones and her blood is changed. She is made immortal, and anyone who communes with her blood is granted its healing properties.

2) Clerics try to replicate this by providing their own holy blood, in the image of Yharnam herself. Furthermore, The Vileblood Queen is a crude imitation of Yharnam the Vilebloods use as their own conduit of blood healing.

To revisit Mergo, hes basically nightmare Jesus. He cant live in the real world, because he already died and is part nightmare, but he is still looked after by the Wet Nurse because hes Old One royalty.

I think he is Odeon's because Odeon is formless sans his voice and influence, and all we know of Mergo are his cries. I reckon we hear him because thats the only way we can perceive him.

So then the question: is Odeon using the Moon as his physical form? This would make sense given Mergos chamber is the Lunarium.

Interested in what you've said, I'll try to connect the rest with your theory.

 

[Sayad]

Just found out that Celestial Emissary is a great one! The bar for greatness doesn't seem that high.

 

[Steel]

Here's a question to those who don't believe the it's all a dream theory that I've been considering. How do you explain enemy respawns and the fact that NPCs don't respawn? At first I thought a good way to explain it without Yahrnam being a dream would be to say that the dream allows you to effectively go back in time repeatedly and redo the same event over and over until you're succsssful and the event becomes reality, but that doesn't explain NPC permadeath, shortcuts being opened, and enemies still respawning despite all that as soon as you hit a loading screen.

Also on the subject of the relation of mechanics and the story, how does summoning factor in?

Just found out that Celestial Emissary is a great one! The bar for greatness doesn't seem that high.

Well, some people had some real trouble with her. Also all those less Amygdalas are Great Ones.

 

[Kai Dracon]

Here's a question to those who don't believe the it's all a dream theory that I've been considering. How do you explain enemy respawns and the fact that NPCs don't respawn? At first I thought a good way to explain it without Yahrnam being a dream would be to say that the dream allows you to effectively go back in time repeatedly and redo the same event over and over until you're succsssful and the event becomes reality, but that doesn't explain NPC permadeath, shortcuts being opened, and enemies still respawning despite all that as soon as you hit a loading screen.

Also on the subject of the relation of mechanics and the story, how does summoning factor in?

Those technical mechanics are explained by the fact that it's a video game and follows the conventions of the Souls series. Demon's Souls didn't have a real explanation for enemies respawning yet NPCs changing permanently. Dark Souls actually took a stab at this because using a bonfire creates a wave of energy that heals the player *and* revives minor enemies on par with the player.

Bloodborne doesn't bother. It uses From's trademark design conventions and that's pretty much it. It doesn't even really go deep into the "there are many worlds, time is fractured" reasoning for summoning used in past games. It just mentions other worlds and leaves it at that.

 

[Steel]

Those technical mechanics are explained by the fact that it's a video game and follows the conventions of the Souls series. Demon's Souls didn't have a real explanation for enemies respawning yet NPCs changing permanently. Dark Souls actually took a stab at this because using a bonfire creates a wave of energy that heals the player *and* revives minor enemies on par with the player.

Bloodborne doesn't bother. It uses From's trademark design conventions and that's pretty much it.

Summoning was explained in demon souls. Actually so was respawning, the demons revived the enemies every time they died, they take your own body when you're knocked out of body form too.

 

[Beelzebufo]

It makes more sense, I guess, but then we always transcend the hunt no matter what path we take? Since we always kill great ones to beat the game.

And what about the Yahar'gul note that says "Behold! A Paleblood sky!"? Not that my theory explains it at all, I have no idea what that could mean.

The Sky and the cosmos are one?

 

[a harpy]

There are two lore notes that make me question what Laurence was up to when he beckoned the moon.

"Nightmarish rituals crave a newborn. Find one, and silence its harrowing cry."

and

"Madmen toil surreptitiously in rituals to beckon the moon. Uncover their secrets."

Does that mean that Laurence used a newborn to beckon the Moon Presence originally? Was Mergo used to beckon the Moon Presence by Laurence, and is that why Yharnam looks like the child was ripped out of her? I am be behind on lore.

I think discovering more stuff about Rom will open up a lot of information, like why Willem wants us to meet Rom, why Rom is considered vacuous, where he exists, and whether or not his enlightenment is shared when you kill him, which lets you see the amygdalas / red moon (his enlightenment being the veil people complain about) or a more eastern sense of enlightenment that would be uncouth and dishonest to share. I, too, like the idea presented earlier that 'Vacuous Spider' is more of a moniker than anything meant to be taken literally.

Bloodborne's mechanics are explained with the bells that were relics of the choir, used to cross gaps between worlds. I think it's a fun explanation because the Great Ones inhabit the cosmos and seem like some kind of divine infestation on all instances of Yharnam, which is why new worlds were created like the Dream and Nightmare to separate inhabitants from the existence of the Great Ones. Or try to draw closer... whatever.

 

[SoraanTribal]

I guess I just don't really understand what is a dream, a nightmare... why I turned into a little mutated pre-Great One at the end of the game... Is everything that is happening in Yarnham actually happening or is it some dream? The "First Hunter" guy kept saying he wanted to wake up and something about Laurence. I remember there being a cutscene after the fight with Amelia but not sure what that had to do with anything either.

 

[Steel]

I've been wondering, why do you think the markers representing areas you teleport to in the hunter's dream are gravestones?

 

[Victrix]

I've been wondering, why do you think the markers representing areas you teleport to in the hunter's dream are gravestones?

Previous Hunters that Gherman executed + all the dead bodies from you walking off edges and dying to Amelia

 

[Beelzebufo]

I've been wondering, why do you think the markers representing areas you teleport to in the hunter's dream are gravestones?

Messengers like the Hunters?

Also, for the record, all of the Celestial mobs in the clinic are hostile.

 

[Orochinagis]

I was wondering if you can destroy the defiled light portals (the ones with the corpses impaled) in the hidden village I found like 4 of them before facing the reborn boss.

Messengers like the Hunters?

Also, for the record, all of the Celestial mobs in the clinic are hostile.

I remember the is non hostile kneeling down near to a window, probably the cannibal guy I sent there.

Here's a question to those who don't believe the it's all a dream theory that I've been considering. How do you explain enemy respawns and the fact that NPCs don't respawn? At first I thought a good way to explain it without Yahrnam being a dream would be to say that the dream allows you to effectively go back in time repeatedly and redo the same event over and over until you're succsssful and the event becomes reality, but that doesn't explain NPC permadeath, shortcuts being opened, and enemies still respawning despite all that as soon as you hit a loading screen.

Also on the subject of the relation of mechanics and the story, how does summoning factor in?.

Game mechanic, dont overthink it and they completely removed the getting corrupted after getting lots of blood too.

 

[poodpick]

I was wondering if you can destroy the defiled light portals (the ones with the corpses impaled) in the hidden village I found like 4 of them before facing the reborn boss.



I remember the is non hostile kneeling down near to a window, probably the cannibal guy I sent there

Bait the box skeleton things into the fire and it will go out.

 

[Steel]

Previous Hunters that Gherman executed + all the dead bodies from you walking off edges and dying to Amelia

I got the impression that the gravestones for the ones Gherman executed were the ones you couldn't interact with. The ones marking areas in the game seem to have a distinct style to them associated with the area they're attached, particularly the nightmare one.

 

[ElFly]

I did through the city, nothing happens. He disappear when you try to take him through sewers so no taking him to his boss fight.

Can he take the elevator?

 

[LiK]

ENB confirmed Rom is female and is Kin. Interesting.

 

[GwyndolinCinder]

ENB confirmed Rom is female and is Kin. Interesting.

still watchin it, does he explain how he knows this? hope its not guide info

 

[LiK]

still watchin it, does he explain how he knows this? hope its not guide info

Kin info is from the Coldblood she drops. I totally forgot about reading the description for it before using it. Not sure how he knows she's female tho.

 

[Kenzodielocke]

I wish bosses had their own blood vials for more lore like it was with the bosssouls.

 

[Kama_1082]

Is there a site where I can read a synopsis of the story with ending thoughts? I've already beat the game, but I'm a bit confused on a few things.

 

[HeelPower]

Here.

Surprised that "shudder uncontrollably" hasn't become a meme yet.

lol

 

[GwyndolinCinder]

Kin info is from the Coldblood she drops. I totally forgot about reading the description for it before using it. Not sure how he knows she's female tho.

Asked on twitter, he says its a guess because quote "she's the supreme spider baby-momma"

 

[HTVfanatic]

Does attacking Gherman the first time you meet him have any implications?