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Bloodborne Story and Lore Discussion Thread [Unmarked Spoilers]
- Thread starter GorillaJu
- Start date
UpDownLeftRight
Banned
Kotaku's write up is great and puts a cohesive time line onto a lot of things we have been speculating together. One thing is that he says its "speculation, not fact" that Laurence's skull is on the altar, but we have a bit of inside knowledge here.it is fact, not speculation!
Also it seems really likely that the bloodletting beast is Laurence. If Laurence started the healing church, it makes sense that bloodletting, the medical procedure of draining blood to cure illness, is required for blood ministration.
Here's my new theory: I don't think Ashen Blood = beast transformation. I think Ashen Blood = petrification. The antitode item description says it eventually triggered the metamorphosis epidemic, and I think it triggered it, but isn't the same illness.
Ashen blood -> use antidote. Antidotes not strong enough -> blood ministration. Take blood -> become a beast.
Otherwise through what mechanic are the people we see all over becoming petrified? There are statues, but there are also people who obviously turned to stone. One could make the connection that your blood becoming like ashgrey and sandyyou eventually turn to stone.
Also, we know there are different types of blood too, with different properties. White blood (Ebrietas?) -> become a mushroom dude, red blood (Oedon blood?) -> become a beast, black blood (???) -> become a Vileblood, etc.
Just some thoughts
Regarding the blood letting beast I have a video I grabbed earlier which might add some confusion. It talked to me as I died and apparently that dialogue belongs to the gunner from Old Yharnam.
https://youtu.be/PtYDo5xqgqw
I think the crosses are hunters he killed in battle, and the gravestones are hunters who took the blue pill. The Doll pays respects at your grave if you take the easy end, so that would indicate that those who submit their lives are given reverent memorials. So those crucifixes must come from the hunters who tried to kill Gehrman.
Also thinking about Gehrman, the colors of his clothing (brown, red, white) match the Byrgenwerth student clothing, don't they? Could allude to his beginnings as a hunter coming from Byrgenwerth.
Karsticles
Member
Basically confirmed in the "Give In" ending.
Karsticles
Member
Ah, that makes sense. That is interesting, though, that someone could be alive in the dreams but dead in the real world. It speaks to how clearly this is a world of alternate dimensions, and not a simple dream.
Yep Kotaku did a really good writeup.
Still it's not totally clear to me what happens with Mergo.
It is said that the umbilical cord of the child was used by Mensis/Micolash to reach him.
Same way as Gehrnam used the umbilical cord he had to the get in contact with the moon presence.
So the child was already born long ago since Mensis used his umbilical cord, but we don't know if he died or went missing.
If he died why Mensis wanted to reach him through the nightmare?
Do great ones not die in the normal sense?
And if he didn't die and simply went into the Mensis dream that the Mensis group with Micolash created, what happens when we unleash the red moon?
I thought that it was in that moment that Mergo came to life but if he was already alive....what's going on? He simply gets powerful enough to fully take over the nightmare dimension and possibly to engulf the whole Yahrnam in that reality because it's not isolated in that nightmare dimension anymore?
Also it's not clear why if both Micolash and Mergo are killed the dimension remains.
Still I guess that relatively to the moon presence and the endings things can be explained if we think that the hunter's mission is to gain enough insight to become a surrogate for a Great One child, in this case the Moon Presence. Depending on what we do, we either get the chance to break our contract and be freed from our mission forgetting about everything or we try to become a surrogate failing and being used as a replacement for Gerhman while the cycle continues or in the third case we become the Child of Blood that everyone is expecting to be born during the hunting nights (there are people in their homes asking to be blessed with blood aka to be chosen as surrogates in that night).
Or maybe the Micolash that we kill is just an echo of his physical form that we find dead.
Beelzebufo
Banned
Basically, I think that's sort of two different ways of saying the same thing really, yeah?
The weirdest thing is that the dream stuff works differently for Hunters. Micolash is still sitting in the chair, but you disappear when you go to the Hunter's Dream.
Maybe it's not different for Hunters, but instead different for the hosts? We're not hosting the dream ourselves, after all (or at least I think we're not?), and we also disappear when we go to the Nightmare of Mensis/Nightmare Frontier.
I was just thinking that the statues were dreamscape elements. The way they're positioned is odd in general, to the point I seriously doubt they're anything else. I mean, ashen blood might petrify you, but then why would a bunch of people who are actively getting petrified be climbing the walls in abject horror in hidden village? Why would all of those people get petrified at the same instant in time and not separately? Also why do they look like they're undead?
Then you have the other statues, IIRC a lot of the statues were faceless, gathered in groups with similar clothing. All of this seems more dreamlike, or purposeful, than a side effect of ashen blood.
Then there's also the password guy who's one of two students who're apparently still alive and "serving their master" even in madness, despite the fact you find their dead bodies before you find that item.
That happened to me too. I don't know if it was a mistake or not.
Well if you think about the philosphies of all the different factions it would seem that the nightmares are an inward looking attempt to communicate with the great ones and other attempts are outward attempts to communicate with the great ones.
Also we are guided by the messengers to these various locations so they seem to the the most powerful creatures of them all.
Beelzebufo
Banned
That's an interesting way to look at it, and it makes sense. I guess once the healing church found Ebrietas, the Choir tried communicating directly with her while Mensis found other stuff?
And yeah! The messengers also have statues in tombs in the Pthumeru dungeon. They're like protector dieties.
Actually, can we agree that everything that actually happens in the Chalice Dungeons is basically noncanon? You find another Ebreitas down there. I guess you could say there's really weird time traveling shit going on, but in the sense that the things you do both in the main game and in the Chalice Dungeons don't affect each other (like killing Ebrietas in Isz doesn't make it disappear in the Ward), so it might as well not be happening at all.
I guess everything time based in this game doesn't really make sense though.
Mermandala
Member
The labyrinth (the deeper you go) sits "under" observable time and branches into multiple parallel dimensions. It could explain how such a thing as a randomized dungeon could exist. living string (theory / ritual / whatever) maybe.
There's a buncha different Amygdalas in the world why can't Ebritas be one of many enemies that look like it?
MegaSackman
Member
This happened to me, he wasn't around in Hunter's Dream and when I woke He said from somewhere "I'm too old to keep doing this" and something more, it took me by surprise.
robo_qwop
Member
Well... there's also "Nightmare of Mensis" and the actual real world word "menses" to consider...
Or don't. Probably don't.
Ya I mean the story is tied a lot to reproduction, so didn't think it would be far fetched.
Ohh
"The term Menses is derived from the Latin word mensis, which signifies a month, because in healthy women, who are neither pregnant nor giving suck, this discharge generally flows regularly at intervals of a lunar month, or about twenty eight days."
Ohh
"The term Menses is derived from the Latin word mensis, which signifies a month, because in healthy women, who are neither pregnant nor giving suck, this discharge generally flows regularly at intervals of a lunar month, or about twenty eight days."
But you pick up vials of blood from men too... They just aren't super special blood that exhibit special properties.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
You could say Bloodborne is... a period piece B^)
Where?
Through out the entire game. They are what you use to heal yourself.
Healing Blood Vials. They drop everywhere
Yes, but the blood from the women is special, has different properties and is in special vials.
Well it's implied that Ariana is a descendant of th Cainhurst aristocracy and that Adella is a a nun choosen because she makes fancy blood. It's in the item descriptions.
Mermandala
Member
Drink up from the Holy Grail Ya'll!
Pretty sure their blood isn't special in itself, but rather because they've had transfusions like you've had. The healing church is the source of that blood, more or less.
He has a few other lines in that state too. I forget the details.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
I don't think Rom is a true great one.
Deeper into the chalices I found something called great one coldblood. Rom drops kin coldblood.
Deeper into the chalices I found something called great one coldblood. Rom drops kin coldblood.
Someone here mentioned that the lake you fight Rom, the Vacuous Spider in might actually be the dream of the long dead Rom that whose corpse you find in the Orphanage.
I really like that idea. Maybe that's why you find Ebrietas mourning over her? Because you just ended Rom's life in the dream?
I really like that idea. Maybe that's why you find Ebrietas mourning over her? Because you just ended Rom's life in the dream?
indigo-cyclops
Member
Is there a a full transcript of her recited prayer before fighting her? I should check the wiki I guess.
"Seek the old blood. Let us pray... let us wish... to partake in communion. Let us partake in communion... and feast upon the old blood.
Our thirst for blood satiates us, soothes our fears. Seek the old blood... but beware the frailty of men. Their wills are weak, minds young.
The foul beasts will dangle nectar and lure the meek into the depths. Remain wary of the frailty of men. Their wills are weak, minds young.
Were it not for fear, death would go unlamented."
He isn't.
He got his eyes (read his powers) later, like Micolash said but lost his brain the process.
Willem put him in the lake and he's using his eyes (while he should put the brain
) to prevent the Mensis ritual from being completed and Mergo turning the whole Yahrnam into his nightmare. Willem feared the blood rituals and the blood infusions. This is my take on it at least.GwyndolinCinder
Member
Well both rom and ebi come back in the chalice dungeons, so they clearly are still alive in some form
I've been off GAF for a while and thought I'd come pop in, I platinumed the game a few days ago so I think I'm piecing stuff together between myself and this thread.
I've seen lots of talk about the background but what do people think about the Themes of the game. I find link between instinct = blind (I.e. Gascogne, Amelia etc having covered eyes) while insight = too many eyes (most great ones are covered in them). Also lots of menstruation imagery.... Don't see that in many games.
I've seen lots of talk about the background but what do people think about the Themes of the game. I find link between instinct = blind (I.e. Gascogne, Amelia etc having covered eyes) while insight = too many eyes (most great ones are covered in them). Also lots of menstruation imagery.... Don't see that in many games.
I'm losing my mind, shit.
Every time I go to bed I spend at least 10 minutes thinking about fucking Byrgenwerth and can't sleep for a while.
Miyazaki, what have you done. At the end of the dream lies a monster.
EDIT: Could part of Laurence's motivation in researching blood be rescuing Gehrman?
In Lecture Building:
"The nameless moon presence beckoned by Laurence and his associates. Paleblood."
"Three third cords."
"Hunt the Great Ones, Hunt the Great Ones."
The Abandoned Workshop Cord:
"Every Great One loses its child, and then yearns for a surrogate. The Third Umbilical Cord precipitated the encounter with the pale moon, which beckoned the hunters and conceived the hunter's dream."
What if Laurence's audience with the nameless moon presence conceived the Hunter's Dream and trapped Gehrman? I was having trouble understanding why we fight the moon presence with 3 cords but Laurence gets to live long enough to become a beast, but that makes sense, doesn't it? What's taking you so long, Laurence? Well, he died before he could take you out, old pal.
It also ties in nicely with the very beginning of the game and the secret ending, "Seek Paleblood to transcend the hunt", "The nameless moon presence beckoned by Laurence and his associates. Paleblood."
If Paleblood is the nameless moon presence, the same one we fight, only by beckoning this moon presence using three third cords can we actually transcend the hunt, by becoming an infant great one. The secret ending isn't the true or best ending, the cannon ending or anything like that, just the one where we succeed in executing the very first mission given to us, but it's not fair to call it a "True Ending", considering we're talking about a Souls game.
In Dark Souls, accomplishing our mission means being a pawn to Gwnydolin and Frampt and not even know what's going on, after all.
Every time I go to bed I spend at least 10 minutes thinking about fucking Byrgenwerth and can't sleep for a while.
Miyazaki, what have you done. At the end of the dream lies a monster.
EDIT: Could part of Laurence's motivation in researching blood be rescuing Gehrman?
In Lecture Building:
"The nameless moon presence beckoned by Laurence and his associates. Paleblood."
"Three third cords."
"Hunt the Great Ones, Hunt the Great Ones."
The Abandoned Workshop Cord:
"Every Great One loses its child, and then yearns for a surrogate. The Third Umbilical Cord precipitated the encounter with the pale moon, which beckoned the hunters and conceived the hunter's dream."
What if Laurence's audience with the nameless moon presence conceived the Hunter's Dream and trapped Gehrman? I was having trouble understanding why we fight the moon presence with 3 cords but Laurence gets to live long enough to become a beast, but that makes sense, doesn't it? What's taking you so long, Laurence? Well, he died before he could take you out, old pal.
It also ties in nicely with the very beginning of the game and the secret ending, "Seek Paleblood to transcend the hunt", "The nameless moon presence beckoned by Laurence and his associates. Paleblood."
If Paleblood is the nameless moon presence, the same one we fight, only by beckoning this moon presence using three third cords can we actually transcend the hunt, by becoming an infant great one. The secret ending isn't the true or best ending, the cannon ending or anything like that, just the one where we succeed in executing the very first mission given to us, but it's not fair to call it a "True Ending", considering we're talking about a Souls game.
In Dark Souls, accomplishing our mission means being a pawn to Gwnydolin and Frampt and not even know what's going on, after all.
Sure, I don't mean it as "Paleblood is the name of the moon presence", but instead just making the connection that the same place contains the lore notes "the nameless moon presence. Paleblood", "three third cords", and by consuming three third cords, you fight Moon Presence and get the "true ending", when our first objective is "Seek Paleblood to transcend the hunt". It's more about how becoming a great one is trascending the hunt.
Eh, birth/babies/children are often used as a horror trope. How often is a crying baby in the distance in a horror movie a good sound? And plenty of people find babies scary for lots of other reasons.
I'm not really sure the insight/beasthood stuff really goes anywhere narratively, it's there in the background, but it doesn't actually impact much of anything that I can think of.
Still bummed you can't pop a beastblood tablet and hulk out into werewolf form though :<
Odd did you search for the lore notes in Japanese? Maybe something was lost in translation!
It makes more sense, I guess, but then we always transcend the hunt no matter what path we take? Since we always kill great ones to beat the game.
And what about the Yahar'gul note that says "Behold! A Paleblood sky!"? Not that my theory explains it at all, I have no idea what that could mean.
At first I expected that note to change as the night advanced but alas.
Try going back to the dream with 0 insight. It has an effect.