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[ShockingAlberto]

I haven't read the whole thread (got about 17 pages through before I realized I should do other stuff today, too), but I didn't see this mentioned and wanted to discuss it.

The boss of the Forbidden Woods is collectively named "Shadows of Yarnham." When you beat on them enough, you discover they're snake people - either people with snakes inside them like the "humans" along the path or literally just snakes filling a robe.

When you go to Nightmare of Mensis, you see these same enemies with the same attacks. They're all specifically around where Yarnham, the NPC, is. They don't show up at all prior to Micolash, so they're likely not regular residents of Mensis. The ones in Mensis, however, don't turn into snakes when they've been damaged enough and don't seem to have any snake-based attacks (like the boss did if you killed all but one).

Additionally, they're not using "modern" weaponry, either in Mensis or in the Forbidden Woods. Even though there's a flamethrower weapon, one of the shadows uses a candle. Another uses what really resembles Dark Souls pyromancy.

So what's the theory on these guys? Guards of Yarnham, to either keep her protected or subjugated so she doesn't go fuck with Mergo's Wet Nurse? Were the snake cultists explicitly trying to emulate these guys or even outright revive them?

 

[Yurt]

finally found it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5o8jwqKsDE

0:34, the underwater level I was talking about. We might still get it in a DLC, if we're lucky.

and perhaps

I haven't read the whole thread (got about 17 pages through before I realized I should do other stuff today, too), but I didn't see this mentioned and wanted to discuss it.

The boss of the Forbidden Woods is collectively named "Shadows of Yarnham." When you beat on them enough, you discover they're snake people - either people with snakes inside them like the "humans" along the path or literally just snakes filling a robe.

When you go to Nightmare of Mensis, you see these same enemies with the same attacks. They're all specifically around where Yarnham, the NPC, is. They don't show up at all prior to Micolash, so they're likely not regular residents of Mensis. The ones in Mensis, however, don't turn into snakes when they've been damaged enough and don't seem to have any snake-based attacks (like the boss did if you killed all but one).

Additionally, they're not using "modern" weaponry, either in Mensis or in the Forbidden Woods. Even though there's a flamethrower weapon, one of the shadows uses a candle. Another uses what really resembles Dark Souls pyromancy.

So what's the theory on these guys? Guards of Yarnham, to either keep her protected or subjugated so she doesn't go fuck with Mergo's Wet Nurse? Were the snake cultists explicitly trying to emulate these guys or even outright revive them?

I like where this is going

 

[Tactics18]

finally found it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5o8jwqKsDE

0:34, the underwater level I was talking about. We might still get it in a DLC, if we're lucky.

That's the Tomb of Oedon (Father Gascoigne lamp).

 

[Yurt]

That's the Tomb of Oedon (Father Gascoigne lamp).

I noticed, but what's with the underwater effects?

 

[pantsmith]

I haven't read the whole thread (got about 17 pages through before I realized I should do other stuff today, too), but I didn't see this mentioned and wanted to discuss it.

The boss of the Forbidden Woods is collectively named "Shadows of Yarnham." When you beat on them enough, you discover they're snake people - either people with snakes inside them like the "humans" along the path or literally just snakes filling a robe.

When you go to Nightmare of Mensis, you see these same enemies with the same attacks. They're all specifically around where Yarnham, the NPC, is. They don't show up at all prior to Micolash, so they're likely not regular residents of Mensis. The ones in Mensis, however, don't turn into snakes when they've been damaged enough and don't seem to have any snake-based attacks (like the boss did if you killed all but one).

Additionally, they're not using "modern" weaponry, either in Mensis or in the Forbidden Woods. Even though there's a flamethrower weapon, one of the shadows uses a candle. Another uses what really resembles Dark Souls pyromancy.

So what's the theory on these guys? Guards of Yarnham, to either keep her protected or subjugated so she doesn't go fuck with Mergo's Wet Nurse? Were the snake cultists explicitly trying to emulate these guys or even outright revive them?

I wrote a response to this elsewhere, but the gist was that, looking where they are, and what they are, they seem like shadowy enforcers fairly close to the secrets of whatever it is that's going on.

The Shadows appear right before the gate to the ancient college, which the church has ruled off limits. You need to beat them to proceed, so a solid guess is that they specifically are there to keep it forbidden. The next time you see them is on your way to Mergo, Nightmare Jesus and source of the nightmare.

To your point, both places also feature an encounter with Yharnam herself. Yharnam is key to everything, the holy conduit/vessel through whom the church discovered blood healing, so it would make sense that the Shadows are some kind of secret service for keeping her and her secrets out of the hands of outsiders or deviants (like the Vilebloods).

Were they human? Why snakes? My best guess is that the snakes are littered throughout the woods to kill anything and anyone that tries to go through. If students looking for insight turned to spiders to gain more eyes, the Choir turned to aliens to become closer to "The Cosmos", and the Menses turned to nightmare to learn more about it, I think being snake people shows the kind of role they are trying to fit: supernatural assassins/killers.

Also my original thought is that snakes are like naturally occurring sentient tentacles, and so they work as visual metaphor for the natural world being twisted and emulating a Lovecraftian one. They also have a potent literary and metaphorical implication. Note who the Serpents served in Dark Souls...

 

[Ferr986]

I noticed, but what's with the underwater effects?

I would say it's just a random effect. All of that trailer have touched up graphics.

 

[pantsmith]

I noticed, but what's with the underwater effects?

It could just as easily be a hazy nightmare effect. That's very clearly the Tomb of Odeon.

 

[Yurt]

I would say it's just a random effect. All of that trailer have touched up graphics.

It could just as easily be a hazy nightmare effect. That's very clearly the Tomb of Odeon.

 

[Majmun]

Wow, Eileen killed me during NG+++ and told me to send her regards to the doll.

That was pretty unexpected and awesome.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

That's all well said.

I've also been thinking recently about the Tonsil stone. Here's the description:

A latticed, deformed rock, or perhaps a meteorite.

Appears useless, but possesses some odd gravitational force that prevents its riddance. A dubious soul once said:

"Step lightly round to the right of the great cathedral, and seek an ancient, shrouded church... The gift of the godhead will grant you strength..."

I think about this item specifically because I was really, really confused by the Amygdala at the shrouded church. That was the first place I explored, even ignoring Vicar Amelia, just to see what was in that direction. An invisible hand picking me up then squeezing me to death was all very confusing, so the mystery around them and the tonsil stone stayed in my head for a while.

To start with, you can get the tonsil stone from someone in Forbidden Woods (you can actually get it from most anyone after people start turning to beasts, but he seems to be the intended one). Let me transcribe the dialogue here:

Oh, a hunter of beasts, are you?

Glory be. You know not the value you possess.

...But, more's the pity...

The hours of the night are many, and the beasts more than I can count. A veritable hunt unending!

Not even death offers solace, and the blood imbibes you.

Ha, a most frightful fate, oh my.

But I'm willing to do you a kindness.

Step lightly round to the right of the great cathedral and seek an ancient, shrouded church.

..The gift of the godhead will grant you strength...

Yes, I'm unquestionably certain, heheh...

First of all, this is weirdly explicit for a Souls game's directions. Secondly, I think there's two key lines here: "Not even death offers solace" and "The gift of the godhead grants you strength." This is pretty explicit foreshadowing, too, as it starts basically openly talking about old gods long before they really reveal themselves.

So let's get to what happens when you go there. Whether you can see the Amygdala or not, he'll still grab you. He doesn't really squeeze you and instead causes frenzy until you die. When you have the tonsil stone on you, however, this dialogue occurs:

Oh Amygdala, oh Amygdala...

Have mercy on the poor bastard...

Then you wake up in the Lecture Building. When you get there, Patches implies he was the one who asked Amygdala to save you ("You're in my debt, you know,") but I'm listening to the voice now and it sounds way more like Micolash than Patches. Even the laugh sounds similar.

The theory I had been operating on for a while was that the Lecture Building was in a dream, which is why it had easy access to Nightmares, why Patches was a spider-person (and refers to the area as brushing up against the Gods), and why everyone has lost their molecular constitution as they await Mensis' return.

This is furthered by the fact that, after beating the Old One, you touch someone sitting alone with a Mensis Cage on (which could very well be Mensis) and you go to the second floor of the lecture building. It's also one of the few places in the game, including regular Hunters' Dream, that goes not allow any form of summoning. Gameplay-wise, that might be because it has no boss, but it's interesting to note.

The problem I am running into is that it doesn't make sense why Amygdala would send you there, even to be spared. Taken further back, I'm unsure why a villager wants you to go there, except to to go the Nightmare Frontier to commune with the Gods. Mind you, the person who gives it to you does the Souls laugh, so they're hiding something, but I wonder if you were just being offered as a sacrifice?

There's also the fact that the tonsil stone is a meteorite, so it clearly has that cosmic factor to it.

 

[Karsticles]

Interesting thought, Alberto.

The "gift of the godhead" - that suggests Amygdala? As though Amygdala is doing you a favor by sending you to Nightmare Frontier. Of course, "favors" from an Old One might be vastly different from our concept of favors. Even stranger, why send you to the Lecture Hall instead of Nightmare Frontier?

I don't see why Patches would be lying, though. He claims it's him that saves you, and that he is the one to help you meet a god. He's just chilling at the start of the Lecture Hall, so why isn't it believable? Then again, he tries to kill you in Nightmare Frontier...

You definitely raised my confusion level.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

Thank god for this thread, I had theories about the story but much like the game its not fed to you lol.

What happens if you submit your life to gerham in the end instead of refusing? Do you still fight him?

 

[Ferrio]

Thank god for this thread, I had theories about the story but much like the game its not fed to you lol.

What happens if you submit your life to gerham in the end instead of refusing? Do you still fight him?

He kills you and you wake up in yarnham in the morning like nothing happened.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Interesting thought, Alberto.

The "gift of the godhead" - that suggests Amygdala? As though Amygdala is doing you a favor by sending you to Nightmare Frontier. Of course, "favors" from an Old One might be vastly different from our concept of favors. Even stranger, why send you to the Lecture Hall instead of Nightmare Frontier?

I don't see why Patches would be lying, though. He claims it's him that saves you, and that he is the one to help you meet a god. He's just chilling at the start of the Lecture Hall, so why isn't it believable? Then again, he tries to kill you in Nightmare Frontier...

You definitely raised my confusion level.

Well, he's Patches. In what game has he not lied to you? Admittedly, that's just me assuming, but listen to the voice from the Amygdala death and compare it to talking to Patches later and they certainly sound different to me.

It's not an exact match to Micolash, but it sounds far closer to him than it does to Patches, especially in terms of accent and, well, the laugh.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

He kills you and you wake up in yarnham in the morning like nothing happened.

I see, should you fight him? I fought him and got put into new game plus almost immediately

 

[Karsticles]

Well, he's Patches. In what game has he not lied to you? Admittedly, that's just me assuming, but listen to the voice from the Amygdala death and compare it to talking to Patches later and they certainly sound different to me.

It's not an exact match to Micolash, but it sounds far closer to him than it does to Patches, especially in terms of accent and, well, the laugh.

They sound alike enough to me, but I am also horrible at this sort of thing, so I won't argue it, haha.

What does Patches say if you kill him?

I see, should you fight him? I fought him and got put into new game plus almost immediately

Secret ending 3.

 

[theSlacker]

The problem I am running into is that it doesn't make sense why Amygdala would send you there, even to be spared. Taken further back, I'm unsure why a villager wants you to go there, except to to go the Nightmare Frontier to commune with the Gods. Mind you, the person who gives it to you does the Souls laugh, so they're hiding something, but I wonder if you were just being offered as a sacrifice?

There's also the fact that the tonsil stone is a meteorite, so it clearly has that cosmic factor to it.

One of the biggest things about that that I've wondered about about that is if how that person that gives you the stone acts is intentional. What I mean by that is how he appears at every single talkable door that has someone inside if it after opening the door to the forbidden woods until you talk to him at least once and then load a new area. Not just the first one you go to, but you can go door to door talking to him. Or if that is some gameplay glitch. If it's just a bug then it can be written off but there would be some other implications, even if I don't really know what they would be, if it is intended.

By the way, anyone got a picture of the Patches that boots you off the ledge? I've seen people claim that you can actually see him up on the mountainside near that area before he gives you the boot.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I see, should you fight him? I fought him and got put into new game plus almost immediately

The three endings are:

He kills you, you kill him, you eat three umbilical cords before beating him and you get the best ending.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

The three endings are:

He kills you, you kill him, you eat three umbilical cords before beating him and you get the best ending.

Awesome! Should those events need to happen in a specific order? Like should I have let him kill me first?

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Awesome! Should those events need to happen in a specific order? Like should I have let him kill me first?

Unless you back up your saves, you can only do one per playthrough. But it doesn't matter what order you do them in, you just need to do ending 2 before eating the three cords if you want to go that route.

 

[Skatterd]

My current theory (which changes daily and is obviously missing pieces..and I apologize if it has been said):

We are given goals at the beginning of the game:
In Yharnam- "Seek palebood to transcend the hunt"
In the Hunter's Dream "To escape this dreadful Hunter's Dream, halt the source of the spreading scourge of beasts, lest the night carry on forever."

These are two separate goals with two separate purposes (and endings). The first is to end the night and bring about morning (given by Gehrman, perhaps) and the other to end the hunt, for good. (given by Iosefka? the Blood Minister? not sure).

So hunters are those who are for whatever reason resistant to beasthood. This has a side-effect however- they can enter "dreams." They are willed into the Hunters Dream of Gehrman, chosen by either him or the Moon Presence itself. Each night of the hunt new hunters are brought to the Hunters Dream and tasked with a specific purpose and then cast out by Gehrman when morning comes. I think that the purpose of the hunt is the Moon Presence sensing the rise of a new great one that threatens its existence...in this case Mergo.

Mergo is an infant great one, the child of Yharnam, Pthumerian Queen and a powerful great one (maybe Amygdala?). Mergo resides in the dream of Micolash.

Once the hunter fulfills his or her purpose in killing Mergo, the hunt can end. But there will always be a another hunt, there will always be other great ones (this can be seen by Oedon impregnating Arianna). The night is over for now, but one day the hunt will continue.

If the hunter rejects Gehrman and chooses to stay in the dream, the Moon Presence has found a more powerful hunter and embraces you as its new avatar. The hunt continues with you taking Gehrman's place.

However if you consume the umbilical cord of an infant great one your insight is too high to fall under the moon presence's spell. You were told to seek paleblood which is in fact the Moon Presence itself...
""The nameless moon presence beckoned by Laurence and his associates. Paleblood.""
...and in defeating it you became an infant great one yourself..effectively transcending the hunt for good and bringing humanity into a new childhood (whatever that may be...)

This is obviously a lot of conjecture but it feels good to rant about it a bit...I need to think more on some of the other aspects like Ebrietas and the healing church...they are obviously important (as the blood of Ebrietas is most likely the main cause of beasthood)...but I don't think they factor as much into the hunter's dream plot...thanks for humoring me .

 

[GorillaJu]

One of the biggest things about that that I've wondered about about that is if how that person that gives you the stone acts is intentional. What I mean by that is how he appears at every single talkable door that has someone inside if it after opening the door to the forbidden woods until you talk to him at least once and then load a new area. Not just the first one you go to, but you can go door to door talking to him. Or if that is some gameplay glitch. If it's just a bug then it can be written off but there would be some other implications, even if I don't really know what they would be, if it is intended.

By the way, anyone got a picture of the Patches that boots you off the ledge? I've seen people claim that you can actually see him up on the mountainside near that area before he gives you the boot.

You can see him after getting pushed but I've never seen him before. Maybe I just didn't notice.

 

[Gbraga]

I wouldn't think too much into Lecture Building's geographic location. It is said in lore notes and item descriptions there that the Lecture Building is part of Byrgenwerth. Given how unfinished the actual Byrgenwerth dungeon seems, with ridiculous shortcuts and very small area, I assume it's just part of the fully realized version of Byrgenwerth they intended but were not able to accomplish, and just decided to link them to the Nightmares in order not to throw it away (the game is already kinda short on content compared to Dark Souls, after all, they wouldn't want to cut any more than necessary).

I guess my biggest disappointment in the game was the "wait, that's it?" moment at Byrgenwerth, after the story hyped it so much for such a long time.

About transcending the hunt, I'm still sticking to my theory that the cord ending is the only one where you actually transcend the hunt. If you submit, the hunt continues, you may escape it or stay part of it. If you beat Gehrman but not the moon presence, you command the hunt, I guess? But only by becoming a Great One you actually transcend it, you're above the hunt now, is it over, does it continue? It doesn't matter, you go beyond the hunt now, and I'm not even talking about the "humanity is irrelevant to a great one" thing, even if you become a great one who loves humanity and thinks humanity is your waifu, the hunt is still small talk next to the shit you'll deal with now.

Seek Paleblood to transcend the hunt

The nameless moon presence beckoned by Laurence and his associates. Paleblood.

Three third cords.

The Third Umbilical Cord precipitated the encounter with the pale moon, which beckoned the hunters and conceived the hunter's dream.

In my opinion, those three notes are all connected, and pretty much the only in-game hint you get on how to actually succeed at your initial goal.

Even if Paleblood only refers to the blood of the great ones, as many people believe, I still think the lore notes themselves are talking about using the cords to have audience with Moon Presence, and not just "kill Great Ones to transcend the hunt", because that would imply you'll always transcend the hunt, no matter which ending you choose, since you'll necessarily kill at least one legitimate great one (assuming Rom doesn't count) to beat the game.

It is interesting though to notice that the Hunter's Dream note might be talking about a different objective. After all, the sun does rise in the submit ending, so the night doesn't carry on forever even if you don't transcend the hunt.

 

[pmx7]

I died right as I killed rom
World wasnt change, I went back to the lake and talked to Yarnham and then the world changed.

I wouldn't say it's completely fabricated considering the series of events immediately following Rom's death. You kill Rom, it rains blood, all of a sudden you see the queen being creepy, you see the red moon in Rom's boss room, and you get teleported and told that the prophecy you read in notes before is true and to kill a baby by a message while the red moon is out. It's no stretch to think that Rom's death triggered that series of events and that Rom was holding it back, I mean she doesn't even start off hostile and only her babies defend her in her first phase as she backs away from you so she doesn't seem malevolent at least.

Weird. Maybe my memory is plain horrible but I've finished the game and don't remember any of this happening.
When I killed Rom only a new lamp appeared to return to the hunters dream.
No blood rain and definitely no talking to Yarnham...happen to anyone else?

 

[Skatterd]

One additional note I want to add before I theorize more about Ebrietas.

The Augur of Ebrietas reads

"Remnant of the eldritch Truth encountered at Byrgenwerth.
Use phantasms, the invertebrates known to be augurs of the Great Ones, to partially summon abandoned Ebrietas.
The initial encounter marked the start of an inquiry into the cosmos from within the old labyrinth, and led to the establishment of the Choir."

First thing to note is that it is referred to as "abandoned" Ebrietas...what I think this means is that Ebrietas was basically kicked out of the "dream" world. You may say other Great Ones exist outside of dreams (Rom, Celestial Emissary), but I would argue that this is because they were created outside of dreams (Rom obviously was).

 

[Guevara]

Finally getting into the Chalice Dungeons, and there are a lot of references to the souls games:

• Parts of Hintertomb look a lot like the Sewers/Blighttown from DaS
• The undead miners from Stonefang tunnel from DeS
• I've noticed a number of metal shield throughout, at least two distinct types (round and squarish). That feels like pre-Bloodborne tech. Wish I could equip them.
• The naked undead remind me of the Undead Asylum
• Also, separately, it's interesting that there is incense in those same treasure rooms

I wouldn't say the chalice dungeons are definitely Lordran or anything, but they are a neat touch.

 

[Fhtagn]

I wouldn't say the chalice dungeons are definitely Lordran or anything, but they are a neat touch.

"Of The Old Lords" and Bone Ash enemies using pyromancy sure make me think of Dark Souls.

And bone ash for that matter.

 

[GorillaJu]

I am really curious what the reason is for the Chalice dungeons having killable bosses that are story-related, like the queen, Yharnam. Is it some kind of magical separate dimension?

 

[Steel]

That's all well said.

I've also been thinking recently about the Tonsil stone. Here's the description:



I think about this item specifically because I was really, really confused by the Amygdala at the shrouded church. That was the first place I explored, even ignoring Vicar Amelia, just to see what was in that direction. An invisible hand picking me up then squeezing me to death was all very confusing, so the mystery around them and the tonsil stone stayed in my head for a while.

To start with, you can get the tonsil stone from someone in Forbidden Woods (you can actually get it from most anyone after people start turning to beasts, but he seems to be the intended one). Let me transcribe the dialogue here:



First of all, this is weirdly explicit for a Souls game's directions. Secondly, I think there's two key lines here: "Not even death offers solace" and "The gift of the godhead grants you strength." This is pretty explicit foreshadowing, too, as it starts basically openly talking about old gods long before they really reveal themselves.

So let's get to what happens when you go there. Whether you can see the Amygdala or not, he'll still grab you. He doesn't really squeeze you and instead causes frenzy until you die. When you have the tonsil stone on you, however, this dialogue occurs:



Then you wake up in the Lecture Building. When you get there, Patches implies he was the one who asked Amygdala to save you ("You're in my debt, you know,") but I'm listening to the voice now and it sounds way more like Micolash than Patches. Even the laugh sounds similar.

The theory I had been operating on for a while was that the Lecture Building was in a dream, which is why it had easy access to Nightmares, why Patches was a spider-person (and refers to the area as brushing up against the Gods), and why everyone has lost their molecular constitution as they await Mensis' return.

This is furthered by the fact that, after beating the Old One, you touch someone sitting alone with a Mensis Cage on (which could very well be Mensis) and you go to the second floor of the lecture building. It's also one of the few places in the game, including regular Hunters' Dream, that goes not allow any form of summoning. Gameplay-wise, that might be because it has no boss, but it's interesting to note.

The problem I am running into is that it doesn't make sense why Amygdala would send you there, even to be spared. Taken further back, I'm unsure why a villager wants you to go there, except to to go the Nightmare Frontier to commune with the Gods. Mind you, the person who gives it to you does the Souls laugh, so they're hiding something, but I wonder if you were just being offered as a sacrifice?

There's also the fact that the tonsil stone is a meteorite, so it clearly has that cosmic factor to it.

For the location of the lecture hall, I remember a note or item description I read literally saying that it's afloat in the nightmare.

A few things to clear up here. It's not a common villager who wants you to go there, I'm pretty sure the guy who originally gives you the tonsil stone(who appears at every door, not just one and says the same thing at every door), is Patches himself. That kind of flys in the face of the "he's a nightmare creature" theory as he shows up in what most here consider the real world(or at least has an effect on it). Yet another point on a long list of things that point to the whole thing being a dream, including Yarnham but I digress...

I'm pretty sure it's him who says "Have mercy on the poor bastard..." because you can talk to him immediately afterward through the nearby door. You can see his face through the cracks in the door and he's taunting you and implying that he's the one who brought you here. This also lines up with the whole "you're in my debt you know" bit of dialogue, because he's the one who gave you the tonsil stone which saved you from getting killed by the Amygdalla in the first place.

"Of The Old Lords" and Bone Ash enemies using pyromancy sure make me think of Dark Souls.

And bone ash for that matter.

Keepers of the Old Lords that uses fire seems like an obvious fire-keeper reference.

 

[Arkage]

Don't know if this is brought up in earlier pages, but I found it interesting that in the "true" ending the doll is not only still around, but apparently the caretaker for you as a baby Great One. It makes me think the Doll was either created to foster the birth and growth of old ones to begin with, or is possessed by some independently powerful being that's orchestrating the power struggles that go on between the great ones.

 

[theSlacker]

You can see him after getting pushed but I've never seen him before. Maybe I just didn't notice.

You can see a bit of his legs and what not (which look red as well meaning something I assume) after being pushed, but read somewhere that people say you can see him entirely up on the mountainside before getting pushed if you look around. I just haven't checked for myself.

 

[Sayad]

You can see a bit of his legs and what not (which look red as well meaning something I assume) after being pushed, but read somewhere that people say you can see him entirely up on the mountainside before getting pushed if you look around. I just haven't checked for myself.

Yep, you can, I even threw a knife at him and he fell down, yet he still pushed me when I moved closer to the edge.

 

[Anuson.Phan]

After going over the story..I think the Great Ones in the game are:

Amygdala - Controls the nightmare frontier
Moon Presence - Controls the hunter's dream
Mergo - The new Great one.
Formless Oedonn - Controls/cause blood the beast transformation.
Ebrietas, Daughter of the Cosmos - Seems she is abandoned/banished?

Kin of the Great one's are:

Mergo's Wet Nurse - Why would a great one have no name and only holds a position as a wet nurse?
Rom, the Vacuous Spider - It drops Kin Coldblood
Celestial Emissary - Has no Great one like power to control dreams.Nightmares. Might be high ranking choir members that are turned into these beings by Ebrietas.

 

[CambriaRising]

Yep, you can, I even threw a knife at him and he fell down, yet he still pushed me when I moved closer to the edge.

I must know what you guys are referring to.

 

[theSlacker]

I must know what you guys are referring to.

In the "Nightmare Frontier" area there is a spot where Patches the Spider will push you off the side into a bunch of poison in a cutscene. When he does it you never really get a look at him, just some big spider legs over the edge. You can apparently see him on the side of the mountain before it happens though.

 

[Gbraga]

After going over the story..I think the Great Ones in the game are:

Amygdala - Controls the nightmare frontier
Moon Presence - Controls the hunter's dream
Mergo - The new Great one.
Formless Oedonn - Controls/cause blood the beast transformation.
Ebrietas, Daughter of the Cosmos - Seems she is abandoned/banished?

Kin of the Great one's are:

Mergo's Wet Nurse - Why would a great one have no name and only holds a position as a wet nurse?
Rom, the Vacuous Spider - It drops Kin Coldblood
Celestial Emissary - Has no Great one like power to control dreams.Nightmares. Might be high ranking choir members that are turned into these beings by Ebrietas.

I don't know, I feel like the trophy descriptions wouldn't call them great ones if they weren't great ones. Rom droping Kin Coldblood might just be another hint at the fact that he/she is not a "real" great one, but instead an artifical one, someone who ascended to that plane.

Celestial Emissary might be another artificial one, indeed, but still a Great One, going by the trophy description.

About Wet Nurse's name, well, Moon Presence doesn't even have one, it's referred to as "the nameless moon presence", after all.

 

[CambriaRising]

In the "Nightmare Frontier" area there is a spot where Patches the Spider will push you off the side into a bunch of poison in a cutscene. When he does it you never really get a look at him, just some big spider legs over the edge. You can apparently see him on the side of the mountain before it happens though.

Oh shit. I just thought that was a random face-spider. I saw him after I killed patches in the academy though. Guess it's the nightmare realm so that doesn't matter.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

I wonder if they will release DLC that will provide a new ending like Dark Souls 2 DLC did.

 

[Laughing Banana]

That's all well said.

I've also been thinking recently about the Tonsil stone. Here's the description:



I think about this item specifically because I was really, really confused by the Amygdala at the shrouded church. That was the first place I explored, even ignoring Vicar Amelia, just to see what was in that direction. An invisible hand picking me up then squeezing me to death was all very confusing, so the mystery around them and the tonsil stone stayed in my head for a while.

To start with, you can get the tonsil stone from someone in Forbidden Woods (you can actually get it from most anyone after people start turning to beasts, but he seems to be the intended one). Let me transcribe the dialogue here:

Then you wake up in the Lecture Building. When you get there, Patches implies he was the one who asked Amygdala to save you ("You're in my debt, you know,") but I'm listening to the voice now and it sounds way more like Micolash than Patches. Even the laugh sounds similar.

What is weird is that by the time you can get the Tonsil stone, literally EVERY behind-the-windows/doors NPCs in the game are replaced by the same guy, saying the same thing; it's really eerie to run around Yharnam knocking doors/windows to be greeted by the same guy--and yet after you use it everyone returned to normal.

While this may be just a gameplay mechanic to ensure folks get the Tonsil Stone, but is it really? And who is that guy offering you the Tonsil stone anyway? Seem so random. "Here, take this stone that will take you to this super secret place." For what purpose he granted us that stone?

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

First of all, this is weirdly explicit for a Souls game's directions. Secondly, I think there's two key lines here: "Not even death offers solace" and "The gift of the godhead grants you strength." This is pretty explicit foreshadowing, too, as it starts basically openly talking about old gods long before they really reveal themselves.

Yeah, "godhead" specifically refers to the Great Ones/Old Gods. The use of "head" in there makes me think of how a lot of the word imagery around the Great Ones has to do with the whole insanity inducing knowledge and "lining the inside of your brain with eyes" thing.

 

[theSlacker]

What is weird is that by the time you can get the Tonsil stone, literally EVERY behind-the-windows/doors NPCs in the game are replaced by the same guy, saying the same thing; it's really eerie to run around Yharnam knocking doors/windows to be greeted by the same guy--and yet after you use it everyone returned to normal.

While this may be just a gameplay mechanic to ensure folks get the Tonsil Stone, but is it really? And who is that guy offering you the Tonsil stone anyway? Seem so random. "Here, take this stone that will take you to this super secret place." For what purpose he granted us that stone?

What is even odder about the game going so far out of it's way to get you that item is how it doesn't even matter. If you progress the game normally you will be able to go to the same exact area anyway. It really feels like we are missing something or something was left unfinished there.

 

[Guevara]

Yeah, "godhead" specifically refers to the Great Ones/Old Gods. The use of "head" in there makes me think of how a lot of the word imagery around the Great Ones has to do with the whole insanity inducing knowledge and "lining the inside of your brain with eyes" thing.

There's also the joke that a tonsil stone comes out of a mouth. So, it's literally a bit of their "god" head.

 

[Steel]

What is weird is that by the time you can get the Tonsil stone, literally EVERY behind-the-windows/doors NPCs in the game are replaced by the same guy, saying the same thing; it's really eerie to run around Yharnam knocking doors/windows to be greeted by the same guy--and yet after you use it everyone returned to normal.

While this may be just a gameplay mechanic to ensure folks get the Tonsil Stone, but is it really? And who is that guy offering you the Tonsil stone anyway? Seem so random. "Here, take this stone that will take you to this super secret place." For what purpose he granted us that stone?

it's patches, the same guy you meet in the Lecture hall.

 

[OniBarubary]

I'm leaning on Rom being a girl solely based on the fact that all the Great Old Ones are female or have female pronouns used for them during the game. The only two I'm fuzzy on are Oedon and Mergo, and Oedon is an interesting case because I'm almost positive it's a guy but he also doesn't have a body he's just sound. Mergo however, I'm not sure if it ever gets a gender decider. Which means that Rom only could ascend if she was a woman since all the Great Old One's appear to be female in some way (doesn't hold up well to Oedon but he's...kinda weird and Rom has a body so...).

The other way to spin it is that Rom couldn't become a legit Great Old One because he was a man and as such just became a big dopey spider that was "technically" a GOO but was just sorta...dopey and "vacuous"

I'm just kinda running this around my head at the moment, so it's got a lot of holes and I haven't really put it up to much scrutiny, but I sorta like the idea that gender has a lot to do with being a Great Old One what with all the descriptions of Great Old Ones wanting a child and surrogates and such.

 

[Laughing Banana]

it's patches, the same guy you meet in the Lecture hall.

Hm.

What's the deal with him replacing *every single NPC in the world* though when he gave you that Tonsil Stone?

Just walk around Yharnam; it was him in all the windows and doors saying the same thing. Maybe it was for gameplay purpose... but was it really?

Also, what's his purpose giving us the Tonsil Stone? Seem so random; especially by giving that stone to us the Hunter was given the possibility to kill Amygdala... well one of them anyway.

I'm leaning on Rom being a girl solely based on the fact that all the Great Old Ones are female or have female pronouns used for them during the game. The only two I'm fuzzy on are Oedon and Mergo, and Oedon is an interesting case because I'm almost positive it's a guy but he also doesn't have a body he's just sound. Mergo however, I'm not sure if it ever gets a gender decider. Which means that Rom only could ascend if she was a woman since all the Great Old One's appear to be female in some way (doesn't hold up well to Oedon but he's...kinda weird and Rom has a body so...).

The other way to spin it is that Rom couldn't become a legit Great Old One because he was a man and as such just became a big dopey spider that was "technically" a GOO but was just sorta...dopey and "vacuous"

I'm just kinda running this around my head at the moment, so it's got a lot of holes and I haven't really put it up to much scrutiny, but I sorta like the idea that gender has a lot to do with being a Great Old One what with all the descriptions of Great Old Ones wanting a child and surrogates and such.

Hmm, and yet the fact that all the chosen humans to gave birth to their children were females kind of suggest the opposite, don't you think? Well I guess for Eldritch Abominations gender attributes like "males" or "females" don't seem to matter much... maybe they're not even gendered at all. Interestingly though, Arianna was a prostitute/whore... makes me think that one of the Great Ones disguised itself as a client to impregnate her, because she never even once suggested to the Hunter that she's making contact with a magical being and she looked genuinely baffled/surprised by her own condition after the Hunter killed Rom.

 

[OniBarubary]

I know, it's really odd isn't it? But a lot of the Great Old Ones are female or at least have female pronouns so it's maybe a sort of possibility that since they can't have their own children they use their own blood/ability and impregnate humans for a "surrogate" child.

I may be reading it wrong but I always took it as the fact that because the "kids" of Great Old Ones die or are always stillborn that in order for them to make more or have kids they need to do it with a "surrogate" mother which means the Old Ones are replacing their non-capable wombs with the wombs of humans.

 

[Jaeger]

I wonder if they will release DLC that will provide a new ending like Dark Souls 2 DLC did.

I'm sure we will get DLC. I am looking forward to it. I will buy/pre-order the second it's announced without a second thought. We will be in for absolute glory. More gear, more enemies and bosses, and more areas to explore.

 

[Beelzebufo]

But is not...

A new world reborn.

BTW, what do they mean by "fear the old blood"?

You definitely kill a lot of babies in this game, even if you make more.

Old blood = Loran Blood = Beast blood = Laurence's death.

 

[Apathy]

After going over the story..I think the Great Ones in the game are:

Amygdala - Controls the nightmare frontier
Moon Presence - Controls the hunter's dream
Mergo - The new Great one.
Formless Oedonn - Controls/cause blood the beast transformation.
Ebrietas, Daughter of the Cosmos - Seems she is abandoned/banished?

Kin of the Great one's are:

Mergo's Wet Nurse - Why would a great one have no name and only holds a position as a wet nurse?
Rom, the Vacuous Spider - It drops Kin Coldblood
Celestial Emissary - Has no Great one like power to control dreams.Nightmares. Might be high ranking choir members that are turned into these beings by Ebrietas.

The smaller looking celestial beings don't even have to be choir members. Seems fake Iosefka, someone dressed as a choir member, turned real Iosefka and anyone else you send to the clinic into one of those. Either the Celestial Emissary is something the choir has been able to create and perfect by transforming people and is using it to communicate with other worlds or the Celestial Emissary is something that is here as a proxy for the Old Ones and taught the Choir how to make more of those little ones

 

[Beelzebufo]

After going over the story..I think the Great Ones in the game are:

Amygdala - Controls the nightmare frontier
Moon Presence - Controls the hunter's dream
Mergo - The new Great one.
Formless Oedonn - Controls/cause blood the beast transformation.
Ebrietas, Daughter of the Cosmos - Seems she is abandoned/banished?

Kin of the Great one's are:

Mergo's Wet Nurse - Why would a great one have no name and only holds a position as a wet nurse?
Rom, the Vacuous Spider - It drops Kin Coldblood
Celestial Emissary - Has no Great one like power to control dreams.Nightmares. Might be high ranking choir members that are turned into these beings by Ebrietas.

You forgot the brain, dog. The Brain is a legit great one. There's great ones all over the place it seems.

Half agree with you about CE. Pretty sure it's made through blood ministration, with the ultimate goal to commune with Ebrietas as much as possible. I don't think Ebrietas directly turns them.

I'm still not quite sure what Mergo is, but the nightmare newborn definitely dies when you kill the Wetnurse (you can hear it), so it's not a very good Great One if nothing else haha. And I'm willing to think WN is an OG great one as well. Moon Presence doesn't have a name either.

You're also forgetting the messengers, which seem to be the most powerful of all, really.