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Bloodborne Story and Lore Discussion Thread [Unmarked Spoilers]
- Thread starter GorillaJu
- Start date
theSlacker
Member
I honestly wanted to believe the veil thing as well as time progressing after you touched the skull after the Vicar fight since they would give reasons for the time to have passed other then "it's a video game and they just used those as the triggers". Oh well. :c
Believe me, I wanted to believe in the veil too because the idea is quite cool.
MegaSackman
Member
What catches my interest in that is that the skull is glowing, I don't think is glowing only to show you a glimpse of the past conveniently telling you the password to Byrgenwerth, I think it "might" be something related to the state of the moon and it's evolution on the night. Same thing happened after Rom, you have to speak with Yharnam to procced in the story, or with Micolash's corpse to enter the nightmare.
Those events are triggers, I don't want to say "veil" but maybe something is really happening there, they could be seals.
Kenzodielocke
Banned
Where can I read the theory of the veil ?
So, about Hypogean Gaol, it's not simply a early visit to Yahar'gul just to be a cool foreshadowing thing. It has different enemies, different enemy placements, you can fight a boss and unlock a shortcut early, when you come back the bag men are all dead and you can loot chunk from their corpses... Anyway, the point: Hypogean Gaol isn't lazy, it's not just a sneak peak into Yahar'gul before the red moon, they even go through the trouble of breaking the lamp later, so I think it's safe to assume they would change (or simply hide) the lore notes, unless they wanted them to be there, right?
The reason for them to be there could be just for the sake of foreshadowing and giving you pieces of the puzzle earlier, but I'd like to know your opinion on the implications of them being there.
The only possibilities I could think of, when you consider you can read those messages before you can hear the harrowing cry or see the Paleblood sky are the following:
1 - Team Veil was right, Mergo's cry (just guessing it's Mergo, does it actually stop in the world after you kill the Wet Nurse?) and the Paleblood sky were always there, Rom was just keeping them hidden, along with the rest of the Unseen Village itself, either to seal them or to unable people to mess with their rituals.
2 - Those lore notes are not just lore notes the game gives you, but were left there by someone, which would explain why they would be there before the actual events, you weren't supposed to be reading them anyway, but that's not much of a theory because it's not backed by anything else.
What do you guys think?
The reason for them to be there could be just for the sake of foreshadowing and giving you pieces of the puzzle earlier, but I'd like to know your opinion on the implications of them being there.
The only possibilities I could think of, when you consider you can read those messages before you can hear the harrowing cry or see the Paleblood sky are the following:
1 - Team Veil was right, Mergo's cry (just guessing it's Mergo, does it actually stop in the world after you kill the Wet Nurse?) and the Paleblood sky were always there, Rom was just keeping them hidden, along with the rest of the Unseen Village itself, either to seal them or to unable people to mess with their rituals.
2 - Those lore notes are not just lore notes the game gives you, but were left there by someone, which would explain why they would be there before the actual events, you weren't supposed to be reading them anyway, but that's not much of a theory because it's not backed by anything else.
What do you guys think?
DrDrizzay101
Member
For everybody asking about Patches in NM Frontier, up high on the wall above where the item is when he pushes you off:
What do people think of these two NPC invaders? Guy on the left has a weirdly large nose, almost looks like a mask. Left guy is wearing the Black Church Set while the right guy is wearing the Yharnam Hunter Set.
Very interesting to me that the Yharnam set mentions Ludwig as the first Healing Church hunter, who recruited Yharnam hunters:
while the Black Church set mentions it was worn by the Healing Church hunters:
Last one: what do people think of these spires/masts sticking up out of the mist, right around the area that leads to the Amygdala fight? The middle mast in this picture has a sail or torn cloth thing that rapidly rotates around it:
What do people think of these two NPC invaders? Guy on the left has a weirdly large nose, almost looks like a mask. Left guy is wearing the Black Church Set while the right guy is wearing the Yharnam Hunter Set.
Very interesting to me that the Yharnam set mentions Ludwig as the first Healing Church hunter, who recruited Yharnam hunters:
while the Black Church set mentions it was worn by the Healing Church hunters:
Last one: what do people think of these spires/masts sticking up out of the mist, right around the area that leads to the Amygdala fight? The middle mast in this picture has a sail or torn cloth thing that rapidly rotates around it:
Here's a theory: Patches works for Amygdalla, that's why he practically worships him. He himself mentions that you can't die, and if you keep proceeding as you have been then you will murder Mergo. Amygdalla is the head Great One of the Nightmare Frontier, which encompasses Mergo's Loft so he has something to do with Mergo, perhaps he's Mergo's father.
The reason why patches sends you to Amygdalla is possibly to keep you occupied until the ritual of Mensis is complete, as he doesn't expect you to win against Amygdalla(his reaction talking to him after the fight), and he's keeping the door to the second floor of the lecture hall shut that leads to Mergo's loft. He's basically trying to hold you off for as long as possible to ensure Mergo's safety and is completely caught off guard when you appear on the other side of the door he was keeping shut.
As for why his voice appears everywhere? It's not that he is physically everywhere, the house in Forbidden Woods is the perfect test of this, as you can see through the holes in it. The old lady that's supposed to be there is still there even when he talks to you. For me, I continued the conversation immediately afterward and it was the old lady talking to me like nothing had happened. I think the fact that you kept hearing that voice after the first knock on a door was a glitch.
DrDrizzay101
Member
Yeah, most definitely. I have a picture that looks almost exactly like yours, lol. So cool.
NM Frontier might be my favorite area in the game. Can't explain it but there's something I find intoxicating, in a terrifying way. I posted earlier in the thread about the Dali-surrealism influence of the landscape design.
Also, those fucking white squid things gave me serious nightmares IRL. I thought I had a picture saved of the ghoul-monsters underneath them, on their bellies when they raise up, but can't find it now... so disturbing.
DrDrizzay101
Member
Couple YouTuber lore videos, for anyone interested:
Super Bunny Hop: BB and Lovecraft
https://youtu.be/voMAx-lKfIw
Dave Control Live: BB Lore/Story
https://youtu.be/fJOL5iRXvqA
Super Bunny Hop: BB and Lovecraft
https://youtu.be/voMAx-lKfIw
Dave Control Live: BB Lore/Story
https://youtu.be/fJOL5iRXvqA
some decent posts about it in this thread!
I'm pretty sure it was purposely done by From so no one misses out on the Stone
Orochinagis
Member
I wont be surprised if the skull will be a portal to DLC.
In the latinoamerican dub If you choose a female hunter The Doll refers all the female hunter rest here in the dream, instead of saying "all hunters".
You get the password from Amelia's watch.
I'd avoid classifying Odeon, Mergo or Moon Presence as Great Ones because we have no information to back that up. All of the others listed above are Great Ones, per the trophy descriptions, and are things we hunt.
If we were to draw up a hierarchy, "Great One" would fall somewhere below "Old One", which fits with Lovecrafts pantheon; an apt comparison is one of Cthulu to Yog-Sothoth, both tremendously powerful and horrifying from our perspective, but one is much older and beyond understanding.
My best guess is that Odeon and Kosm are Old Ones, the Moon is either Odeon or some kind of Old One, and Mergo is an Old One child, which is its own weird category.
thing is that the boss title reference Rom as a female, because it's a spider and the pronoum of spiders in spanish is always female (Rom la araña vacua), yet Micolash calls him el vacuo Rom, clearly stating he's male. Considering what he says about Rom (Kos placing eyes on Rom) you can understand that he was originally male before whatever Kos did to him, turning him into a Great One spider.
Although it may be just an error in the spanish script too.
MegaSackman
Member
Didn't know that, but... you can't avoid the cinematic to progress in the story, right?
Orochinagis
Member
There is no "El Araña" in spanish but "La araña" even if is male. Both sentences are correct, one defines the species and "El vacuo" the gender if Rom was female it would say "La vacua"
That's what I mean, he specifically says his gender is male. Just pointing that because I read ENB said Rom is female.
What I meant about the error script is referencing him as a male (El Vacuo and not La Vacua).
It's definitely his voice. And he tells you exactly where to go.
Orochinagis
Member
Oh I see, but he is speculating like we do so FROM have the last word in that regard
First, it's his voice. Second: it's not just the woods; he gives it to you anywhere and everywhere you can talk to a door. Third: immediately after being taken to the lecture hall by Amygdalla Patches says "you owe me" which directly implies that he was the one who told you how to get there and gave you the tonsil stone.
Considering that the area accessed with the stone is completely optional, and places like Upper Cathedral Ward and Cainhurst, which are just as relevant to the story, are easily missable(and optional areas are normally easily missable in From games), I don't think it's just that they don't want anyone to miss getting it(in fact that is counter to how From designs their games in every way shape and form).
Lys Skygge
Member
I'm pretty sure the voice disappears from the Forbidden Woods after being teleported too.
No you get it from the cutscene. The pendant description tells you to touch the skull for the password.
Deified Data
Banned
Really hate how these threads almost always devolve into "but ENB said this" as a serious response to someone else's hypothesis.
I've no doubt his insight into the game's lore is great, but the speculation is what makes the world interesting, not having "facts" nailed down for you by someone else. ENB doesn't even promote this sort of behavior - he readily admits to speculating as much as anyone else. It's people who regard him as an authority on the matter that are causing the problem. Same with Vaati.
I've no doubt his insight into the game's lore is great, but the speculation is what makes the world interesting, not having "facts" nailed down for you by someone else. ENB doesn't even promote this sort of behavior - he readily admits to speculating as much as anyone else. It's people who regard him as an authority on the matter that are causing the problem. Same with Vaati.
Oedon is explicitly "the formless Great One" on the Oedon Writhe rune:
Oedon Writhe said:
indigo-cyclops
Member
I agree, and he's rarely even speculating with this game for some reason. Like he's waiting for the guide to drop or something.
I'm more interested in what others playing the game have to say. The more the merrier, and more interesting.
Good question. Kinda curious myself, now that I think about it.
Also, Formless Oedon rune:
"The Great One Oedon, lacking form, exists only in voice, and is symbolized by this rune."
And One Third of Umbilical Cord:
"Every Great One loses its child, and then yearns for a surrogate, and Oedon, the formless Great One, is no different. To think, it was corrupted blood that began this eldritch liaison."
The Formless Oedon rune even made me theorize about the window voice telling me to go get grabbed by the amygdala was actually Oedon. I went and revisited every single area after I beat a boss on my first playthrough to notice the changes, so people started to lose their minds when night came, and then suddenly everyone had the same dialogue, I instantly connected that to "Oedon exists only in voice", as Oedon was using the people who were now going mad by their abuse of blood ministration (yharnamites are addicts, and blood is like a drug in Yharnam, according to the Blood Vial description), and became vulnerable vessels to the will of Oedon, "god of blood", manifesting his will through voice.
Then people told me it was just patched talking to me through the windows and I actually learned that the Great One's voices aren't something we could understand just by listening, it's not like they speak in english or anything, but it was cool when I first thought this, made me feel clever.
This is eating my soul, I can't sleep at night trying to figure out what the fuck is going on with this. Since ENB likes Iosefka so much, I hope he has something interesting to say when he gets there, instead of just "hmm, interesting" >_<
Maybe she had ties with the School of Mensis?
She uses the Choir garb, has her blood in the Nightmare of Mensis and makes Numbing Mist from people, a secret recipe guarded by Cainhurst nobles.
Just what the fuck is going on with her.
EDIT: To be fair, only the fake Iosefka gives us Numbing Mist, right?
Iosefka could be a special kind of blood saint from the Choir, her blood being in Mensis could just be taken there because it's good stuff (though being in a chest makes it seem very important, especially for being so close to Mergo and the queen).
The Imposter could be a noble from Cainhurst, sharing the same heritage as Arianna and Annalise, which is why she also gets a baby when the moon hangs low?
Only the Queen whose objective is to give birth to the child of blood doesn't get a child herself? Poor Annalise-sama.
I knew her tsundere ways were just to hide her loneliness.
So, have we discussed the lore for Keeper of the Old Lords yet?
I'm stuck on her in the defiled chalice and I keep thinking that she's a link back to Dark Souls. I keep debating about whether or not this is just a subtle nod or an actual link to the games.
Her name is specifically Keeper of the Old Lords, which I think is significant. When she buffs her weapon, it's exactly the same as the Dark Souls buff, which is different from all of the weapon buffs in Bloodborne. Her armor is reminiscent of the Darkwraith armor. And the armor description just sounds so much like a link to dark souls.
The keepers, who mind the slumbering Great Ones, gained
eternal life, preserved in ashen form in a ceremony of flame
that cremated body and soul.
The long, pointed hat is a symbol of the old keepers and is
considered evidence of their companionship, forged in a
certain sin.
Thoughts on this? Am I just crazy?
I'm stuck on her in the defiled chalice and I keep thinking that she's a link back to Dark Souls. I keep debating about whether or not this is just a subtle nod or an actual link to the games.
Her name is specifically Keeper of the Old Lords, which I think is significant. When she buffs her weapon, it's exactly the same as the Dark Souls buff, which is different from all of the weapon buffs in Bloodborne. Her armor is reminiscent of the Darkwraith armor. And the armor description just sounds so much like a link to dark souls.
The keepers, who mind the slumbering Great Ones, gained
eternal life, preserved in ashen form in a ceremony of flame
that cremated body and soul.
The long, pointed hat is a symbol of the old keepers and is
considered evidence of their companionship, forged in a
certain sin.
Thoughts on this? Am I just crazy?
Hmm, I'd be with you if not for the Great Ones being mentioned in the armor description.
After all, the technology shows that Bloodborne could take place after either Demon's or Dark Souls, so it would make sense that it could be a Darkwraith (or even a Dark Lord?) from some other cycle, (or even the Chosen Undead himself?), but the Great Ones aren't involved in Dark Souls, so the description actually remove all doubt from me.
See, I debated that too, but what if the keepers predate the Old Ones? Or perhaps the Old Ones are what happens if you choose the era of Dark in Dark Souls 1/2? Perhaps the first flame was "blinding" the eyes and that's why there was no mention of them in Dark Souls?
I know that's super graspy- but that character specifically is such a Dark Souls reference, it's uncanny. From doesn't just do arbitrary references, so I'm really stuck on this!
Well, I'll give you the "From doesn't just do arbitrary references" thing. They even removed the Umbasa line from Gascoigne probably because they saw people were already speculating and linking Project Beast to the Amulet of Beasts, and then they were like "woah, people are going crazy over nothing, remove that shit"
MegaSackman
Member
She uses the Choir garb, has her blood in the Nightmare of Mensis and makes Numbing Mist from people, a secret recipe guarded by Cainhurst nobles.
Just what the fuck is going on with her.
EDIT: To be fair, only the fake Iosefka gives us Numbing Mist, right?
Iosefka could be a special kind of blood saint from the Choir, her blood being in Mensis could just be taken there because it's good stuff (though being in a chest makes it seem very important, especially for being so close to Mergo and the queen).
The Imposter could be a noble from Cainhurst, sharing the same heritage as Arianna and Annalise, which is why she also gets a baby when the moon hangs low?
Only the Queen whose objective is to give birth to the child of blood doesn't get a child herself? Poor Annalise-sama.
I knew her tsundere ways were just to hide her loneliness.
Maybe Iosefka's imposter went to the clinic searching for her and she wasn't there... Is the corpse of Iosefka in the clinic? I didn't see her. Maybe she wasn't there when the impostor arrived, maybe she left or was taken.
Speaking of Cainhurst, I asked a question about the Vilebloods, but not sure if somebody answered it already. What was exactly the "forbidden blood" which was the source of the Vilebloods that Alfred talked about? I think the story was that someone from Byrgenwerth brought this "forbidden blood" to Cainhurst. But why? Was this guy some spy from Cainhurst because they were interested by Byrgenwerth's discoveries in the tombs or something like that?
She is, the imposter turns her into a... uh... alien thing?
You can loot Iosefka's Blood Vial from her, and actually see she has no weapons when you first talk to her.
You can also notice the obvious change in tone, but everyone is going mad, and this also happens in Dark Souls, so it makes sense to just assume she's losing her mind.
I wonder what happens to Iosefka if you do the coffin skip and kill the imposter right away, and then keep talking to Iosefka throughout the game. Does she always say she can't open the door and won't change her mind? That would be the best case scenario, I guess, she could also just die anyway.
I assume Yharnam's blood, given Annalise and Yharnam's similarities, and also the descriptions of Yharnam Stone and Queenly Flesh (is that it? I can't remember the exact name of the item now).
As to how or why it ended up in Cainhurst, that I have no idea.
Sorry man, speculating Bloodborne takes place after Dark Souls is ridiculous. If it does then we would have the dark sign instead of the hunters mark or bonfires/undead or several dialogues and lines referring to the dark or the first flame. Dark Souls 2 shown countless centuries and cycles past by, their firearm technology are still primitive and stagnant.
And besides, Bloodborne is a Sony IP therefore it's not possible to have references/sequel to another publisher's IP.....except for Patches.
Bloodborne being a stronger theory of taking place after Demon's is more viable. Umbasa line got removed, it's a Sony IP which mean another IP can refer to Bloodborne would be Demon's and in Demon's good ending all the magic got removed can lead to advancement of firearms.
And besides, Bloodborne is a Sony IP therefore it's not possible to have references/sequel to another publisher's IP.....except for Patches.
Bloodborne being a stronger theory of taking place after Demon's is more viable. Umbasa line got removed, it's a Sony IP which mean another IP can refer to Bloodborne would be Demon's and in Demon's good ending all the magic got removed can lead to advancement of firearms.
Yeah, I don't think it's the case at all.
Even Demon's, that is a Sony IP, is only referenced with that boxart armor thing in the chalice dungeons.
I guess that the more important point is that it really doesn't matter, either way. Dark, Demon's and Bloodborne all have their own stories, and if suddenly we learn that they're all connected, it still doesn't change anything at all. It won't give us more information to further understand the story or anything like that.
That reminds me that Gascoigne said Umbasa when he killed the player in Bloodborne Beta. But they removed it, I think?
Actually, the Dark Souls IP belongs to From not Namco, so they're allowed to reference whatever the hell they want.
Orochinagis
Member
Souls game are open to speculation on purpose, its really hard to make a fact but god lord, Bloodborne have some serious loopholes in its story.
Some people think Vaati have the Dark Souls 2 lore as facts now. it really makes me scrath my head.
He helped to make the strategy guide as far as I remember
Sword Of Doom
Member
Does transfending the hunt mean becoming a great one? Is that the intention of every Hunter and is that why Eileen kills hunters?
Yup, and Vaati even put up a video linking Umbasa and the Talisman of Beasts to project Beast, speculating that the end of magic would lead to the development of advanced technology and medicine. As Defuser said in his edit.
Which is why I believe that's the exact reason they removed it, they didn't want to mislead people and it was just a wink wink reference. After all, now we know that not only there is some kind of magic in Bloodborne, but it's an ancient and advanced kind of magic, in a way that is very removed from the "now there's no magic so it's more realistic" line of thought. And gameplaywise, magic is now used in the form of items that take QS bullets to be used, with the arcane stat for scaling. It's not because of The Old One being the symbol of god, it's just because of the Lovecraft inspiration. Demon's had nothing to do with anything.
