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Bloodborne Story and Lore Discussion Thread [Unmarked Spoilers]

Vena

Member
n, you kill a lot of the so called Gods on DS, but we can't be sure we kill them all. But we are sure that, once we finish the Age of Fire, they lose their powers, finishing their reign, and starting the age of Men.

The don't lose their powers, they just lose supremacy (which is in and of itself a bit weird, since Havel is obviously a human and was a general and great friend of Gwyn, and there are other humans seemingly in high standing with the Lords... like the Four Kings before they fell to corruption and the rise of the Darkwraiths). Their power stems from their own souls, Gwyn was terrified of his "light", the First Flame, fading and giving way to the Dark and humanity, not of losing his power. More specifically, I think Gwyn was afraid of the Dark and humanity after what transpired in New Londo. (Also why would Gwyn care about other Gods losing their power as his motivation to effectively kill himself. It was far more that he was simply terrified of what could come not of what his supposed brethren might lose or gain from it. And by the end of it, you're just putting a tired and old man out of his misery.)

As for killing everyone, I meant that you kill what little was left of anyone. You kill Neato, the Bed of Chaos, Seethe, the Four Kings, and Gwyn (and then Gwyndolin and Priscilla). Guinevere may have run off but I don't see how that can happen without anyone noticing, nor would I understand why the Gods would abandon their seat of power and fortress at Anor Londo.

Anyway, back to the point, Lordran is a dead place by the time DS starts and the Lords have lost their hold over the world, and its just a decrepit shack falling apart at the seams. In BB, you're in a world that's still alive and ripe for the saving from the Old Gods who have a definite and firm grip over the world come the start of the game. Humans have lost control of their own world/lives in BB, and the Old Gods are manipulating everything to further their own species.
 

Steel

Banned
I feel like the Moon Presence is the one making humans have the Olds children's. It's only with the Red Moon that Arianna or Iosefka get pregnant (and I assume they are Great One children's).

When you kill him, you basically , as a new Moon Presence, can prevent the Great Ones to procreate, dooming them forever. Kind of goes on how you fuck the gods in the Dark Lord ending of DkS.

Although I'm still missing the full meaning of the hunt.

EDIT: Oh wait, forgot that you have to kill Mergo for completing the hunt. That goes against what I said...

That's exactly what I mean, it seems like the game expects you to blame the moon presence, but puts evidence that runs counter to the moon presence being the bad guy here. The moon presence is really the thing that leads you to ending the hunt and thining out the number of great ones.

The question then, of course, is why the Moon presence doesn't directly do anything outside of the hunter's dream. Maybe Great Ones have jurisdictions and can't directly interfere with one another and that's why the Moon Presence needs a surrogate, a hunter, to carry out its will of killing the other great ones/killing their babies? Perhaps Micolash was a similiar surrogate working for Amygdalla?

Which would then make you in the secret ending need a surrogate to carry out your will, just like the moon presence, thus going back to my theory that the moon presence might have been a hunter like you at some point.

Well, I mean more like the Moon Presence is the one making the cycle, not necesary him/her being the father/mother.

I mean, it's not like the Great Ones come down and procreate with women, they just get "blessed" with a Great One child when the Red Moon rises. So I assume the Red Moon is some sort of ritual or magic stuff from the Moon Presence that makes the Great Ones able to have their children- Thats why I mean you fuck them all once you kill the Moon Presence (the one maintaining this kind of "cycle").

But I can't make all of this make sense with Gerhman's hunt, considering he's like a pawn of the Moon Presence.

It does make sense if you consider the Moon Presence's goal is for you to murder the great ones, as stated above.

Also the VA credits have one listed for "blood minister". I assume that's the dude in the beginning. Should throw out any crackpot theory that he's Gascoigne/Laurence/some other named NPC. Weird that he's just a random dude but oh well, guess he's not really important after all.

I think he's pretty important because you don't see him ever again, especially considering his last words to you.
 

Guevara

Member
A user on Reddit made a pretty great map of Yharnam
ChUbdyQ.jpg

Interesting how many dead ends there are, really. At the end of Hemick, and Cainhurst, and Yahar'ghul, etc.

For how tight the game is designed, there are a lot of: Boss room then warp back
 

Coconut

Banned
A user on Reddit made a pretty great map of Yharnam


Interesting how many dead ends there are, really. At the end of Hemick, and Cainhurst, and Yahar'ghul, etc.

For how tight the game is designed, there are a lot of: Boss room then warp back

Meh wish it depicted the typography better.
 

Gbraga

Member
A user on Reddit made a pretty great map of Yharnam


Interesting how many dead ends there are, really. At the end of Hemick, and Cainhurst, and Yahar'ghul, etc.

For how tight the game is designed, there are a lot of: Boss room then warp back

Well, to be fair, this game also has many optional bosses, the required content is not a lot, but it's mostly interconnected. Yahar'gul wouldn't count, since at the end you go to the nightmare and continue from there, so of course it's not connected :p

Byrgenwerth does count though, many people (including myself) feel it's definitely an unfinished dungeon.

That said, Dark Souls definitely had better "world design" imo, even if I think the individual levels might be better designed in Bloodborne.
 

Ferrio

Banned
A user on Reddit made a pretty great map of Yharnam


Interesting how many dead ends there are, really. At the end of Hemick, and Cainhurst, and Yahar'ghul, etc.

For how tight the game is designed, there are a lot of: Boss room then warp back

And if anyone was doubtful that that one door was suppose to go to the cleric beast bridge, here's the proof.
 

140.85

Cognitive Dissonance, Distilled
A user on Reddit made a pretty great map of Yharnam


Interesting how many dead ends there are, really. At the end of Hemick, and Cainhurst, and Yahar'ghul, etc.

For how tight the game is designed, there are a lot of: Boss room then warp back

It's like Demon's but with the headstones being interconnected.
 

Guevara

Member
What is going on in Yahar'Hul where the Tonitrus is? That area is like a long street basically, with blocked off (bricked off) gates on both ends.

(Tonitrus -------------> One Reborn)

Feels like a main street.
 

Hyunkel6

Member
I finished the game, but just realized that there is one door that I did not manage to open. When you exist cathedral ward to the left and then go left again past the huge enemy with the axe, there is what appears to be a locked door at the end of the path (past another huge enemy with a morning star, I think). The door is in a room full of breakable pots.

Edit: Oups, wrong thread.
 

Ferr986

Member
That's exactly what I mean, it seems like the game expects you to blame the moon presence, but puts evidence that runs counter to the moon presence being the bad guy here. The moon presence is really the thing that leads you to ending the hunt and thining out the number of great ones.

The question then, of course, is why the Moon presence doesn't directly do anything outside of the hunter's dream. Maybe Great Ones have jurisdictions and can't directly interfere with one another and that's why the Moon Presence needs a surrogate, a hunter, to carry out its will of killing the other great ones/killing their babies? Perhaps Micolash was a similiar surrogate working for Amygdalla?

Which would then make you in the secret ending need a surrogate to carry out your will, just like the moon presence, thus going back to my theory that the moon presence might have been a hunter like you at some point.



It does make sense if you consider the Moon Presence's goal is for you to murder the great ones, as stated above.

Can't make it have sense either way because if his goal was to murder great ones then wouldn't be the responsable to their procreation cycle, unless he's the biggest asshole ever.

Also, I'm not sure about the Moon Presence being the one ending the hunt. I mean sure, you end your hunt but the hunting cycle keeps going, but as long as the Moon Presence is alive and have his "surrogate" like Gerhman, a new hunter will come to the dream for the next hunting night. I feel like only when you kill him , you end up really breaking the hunt cycle, and starting everything anew (without knowing what will do our hunter as a new Moon Presence).
 

Toxi

Banned
Huh, I just realized why the Forbidden Woods boss is called Shadow of Yharnam. You find the non-Snakey versions on the boss in upper Mergo's Loft where Queen Yharnam is. So they're following her around like a shadow, presumably either to guard her or Mergo. The guys in the Forbidden Woods got hijacked by the snake parasites, so that's why they're not close to her.
 

140.85

Cognitive Dissonance, Distilled
Huh, I just realized why the Forbidden Woods boss is called Shadow of Yharnam. You find the non-Snakey versions on the boss in upper Mergo's Loft where Queen Yharnam is. So they're following her around like a shadow, presumably either to guard her or Mergo. The guys in the Forbidden Woods got hijacked by the snake parasites, so that's why they're not close to her.

They drop a rune that explains they are the queens bodyguards and more
 

Amentallica

Unconfirmed Member
A user on Reddit made a pretty great map of Yharnam


Interesting how many dead ends there are, really. At the end of Hemick, and Cainhurst, and Yahar'ghul, etc.

For how tight the game is designed, there are a lot of: Boss room then warp back

Welp, when it's laid out like that it sure doesn't look like that big. But when playing I feel like it's a maze in some parts.
 

Draft

Member
I appreciate this dude's effort and I know half the fun of stuff like this is speculating and using your imagination but he tends to stray pretty far from the source material here and there. I think he's way off regarding a few things, especially what Paleblood is.
Yes, his Paleblood explanation is a little too "midichlorian" for my taste, but he's right about the blood minister being Laurence!
 

Steel

Banned
Can't make it have sense either way because if his goal was to murder great ones then wouldn't be the responsible to their procreation cycle, unless he's the biggest asshole ever.

Also, I'm not sure about the Moon Presence being the one ending the hunt. I mean sure, you end your hunt but the hunting cycle keeps going, but as long as the Moon Presence is alive and have his "surrogate" like Gerhman, a new hunter will come to the dream for the next hunting night. I feel like only when you kill him , you end up really breaking the hunt cycle, and starting everything anew (without knowing what will do our hunter as a new Moon Presence).

You're implying the hunt exists because the Great One's have babies, which isn't what the game implies at all about previous hunts(hell, the Head hunter's emblem implies the hunt isn't even supposed to effect the Cathedral Ward). The hunt is normally about clearing out beasts(And it doesn't seem like the Moon Presence is the cause of the beast infestation, as he's not the source of Yharnam's blood). Consider the fact that only one baby is actually born in the course of the game, and you can murder it without the moon presence even caring, he still lets you leave the dream via Gherman. Not to mention that the red moon disappears once you leave the dream via the give up ending regardless as well, so he willingly gives up his influence. Also, Mergo existed before you even killed Rom in Nightmare frontier.

Perhaps the very nature of the Moon presence's existence(and yours, after you take his place) makes it so that the manifestation of the red moon at all causes the great ones to be able to procreate. Maybe the reason you need to kill Rom is to get the "ritual secret"(as the screen says after you kill him) to enter Mergo's Loft through Micolash, which then has the side effect of the Great One's being able to procreate.
 

Lucario

Member
I appreciate this dude's effort and I know half the fun of stuff like this is speculating and using your imagination but he tends to stray pretty far from the source material here and there. I think he's way off regarding a few things, especially what Paleblood is.

I was more distracted by the fact that he uses the word "indeed" twice per paragraph.
 

140.85

Cognitive Dissonance, Distilled
I'm sure many have seen this since it was put up on the 8th of April, but I just watched it today. It's a 20 minute video discussing the lore. Backed up by story and item descriptions. There also wasn't much speculation and the assumptions are kept to a minimum.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJOL5iRXvqA

Thoughts?

This was awesome, thanks! I like how it's based almost solely on in-game text/dialogue.
 

Icomp

Member
Yes, his Paleblood explanation is a little too "midichlorian" for my taste, but he's right about the blood minister being Laurence!

Well, I like the idea at the end that alludes to the doll being the true great one, having gotten a new surrogate.

And I like the fact that Iosefka's blood vial is light yellow, as if she was trying to make "paleblood", the blood of the great ones (?).
 

Yurt

il capo silenzioso
Well, I like the idea at the end that alludes to the doll being the true great one, having gotten a new surrogate.

And I like the fact that Iosefka's blood vial is light yellow, as if she was trying to make "paleblood", the blood of the great ones (?).
she had white blood when I killed her :0
 

cm osi

Member
so whats the deal with martyr logarius? did he just pretended to
kill the vilebloods and let the others inquisitor ran away to stay with her or something? i mean, he's like a guard to her, he has the crown so he clearly knew about her and now he's undead like annalise
 

milkham

Member
so whats the deal with martyr logarius? did he just pretended to
kill the vilebloods and let the others inquisitor ran away to stay with her or something? i mean, he's like a guard to her, he has the crown so he clearly knew about her and now he's undead like annalise

the vilebloods are all dead, as the queen says when you join her covenant that there are now just two vilebloods (you and her). logarius is wearing the crown of illusion and preventing anyone from finding the queen so that there can be no more vilebloods. I suppose he could have just smashed her into a pink pulp like alfred did...
 
in the Lecture room, you can see Master Willem's chair and desk behind him


and some umbilical cords or dead infants on the table

Now that i checked it the landscape in the trailer matches more the ground floor (the desk and lamp is there along with that brain stuff in the bottles minus the chair Willem sits on) of the Byrgenwerth building than the one Patches is in.
 
the vilebloods are all dead, as the queen says when you join her covenant that there are now just two vilebloods (you and her). logarius is wearing the crown of illusion and preventing anyone from finding the queen so that there can be no more vilebloods. I suppose he could have just smashed her into a pink pulp like alfred did...

Going by the quotes about him on gear I assumed that he tried to pick the most "doing good even if not wise" option he could, and instead of smashing an immortal being into still immortal mush, which would be pointlessly cruel, he martyred himself as an eternal guard to prevent anyone else from being able to join her.

Also no need for spoiler tags in this thread.

They're not the word of god, they're not written from an omnicsient perspective. It's the opposite actually. Random example:


Or a better example from Dark Souls:


In a lot of cases there can be good reason to doubt what's written in the item descriptions.

I may have misused the term, since they are not always written from an omniscient perspective, but as far as I know they never lie and can always be taken as direct truths about a situation.
 
I was fighting Bloodletting Beast in Phtumeru Ihyll and when I died, a voice said:
"The time has come again I fear.
But if the fate smiles upon us, we will meet again.
Farewell, dear friend."

Sounded like Patches, but I was surprised and I never heard that line again when I beat him. Bloodletting Beast have no head at all, by the way... I'm so confused, anyone have an idea of the signification of this?
 
I was fighting Bloodletting Beast in Phtumeru Ihyll and when I died, a voice said:
"The time has come again I fear.
But if the fate smiles upon us, we will meet again.
Farewell, dear friend."

Sounded like Patches, but I was surprised and I never heard that line again when I beat him. Bloodletting Beast have no head at all, by the way... I'm so confused, anyone have an idea of the signification of this?

People aren't sure. Some say that it is the bloodletting beast, but others say that it happens because the patches spider is in that map as a vendor close by and it's just what he says if you die close to him.

Probably already covered, but why is Laurence mentioned by Gehrman off-screen after returning from the Old Abandoned Workshop?

Don't know if the trigger is the Old Abandoned Workshop, but there a two things that I've heard Gehrman say in his sleep about Laurence. One at midgame and one near the end. One at the end he also mentions Willem and sounds a lot more sad.
 
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