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Bloodborne Story and Lore Discussion Thread [Unmarked Spoilers]

Flipyap

Member
and I fixed that initial comment you keep clinging to

it's not his helmet, just like this isn't the wheel weapon, that isn't Eileen the Crow, the one next to him isn't the priest from the Cathedral and those aren't the Executioners you encounter in the Witch's Abode

just little things here and there that reference Berserk
I could agree about the the wheel weapon, maybe, but Berserk seriously did not invent iron mask torture, plague doctors or... uh, priests and executioners.
These aren't fictional inventions, so they inevitably end in unrelated medieval fiction of all sorts. It would be pretty sad if the creators of Bloodborne needed to read a dumb violent porn comic book to find out about these things.
 

Steel

Banned
More NPCs also mention this. Either hunters have this moon scent or you in particular have this scent, which would make you special.

The latter might make more sense given the specific dialogue where it's mentioned and the importance of the moon, but the Souls series so far has never been about "the chosen one", they even subvert this idea in Dark Souls, where The Chosen Undead is basically anyone who can get shit done, so I'm more inclined to believe in the former.

Probably the former seeing as the hunter's dream is the Moon Presence's domain. Also consider Gascoigne's little girl recognizing your scent as something familiar, like her father's.
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
I could agree about the the wheel weapon, maybe, but Berserk seriously did not invent iron mask torture, plague doctors or... uh, priests and executioners.
These aren't fictional inventions, so they inevitably end in unrelated medieval fiction of all sorts. It would be pretty sad if the creators of Bloodborne needed to read a dumb violent porn comic book to find out about these things.

Miyazaki has long read all sorts of western fantasy fiction, learning the language where required to digest the books. He also references dark western fantasy art, and medieval art a great deal.

Berserk is pretty famous though, so I would suspect it's a bit of one, and a bit of the other. Miyazaki and crew certainly would have known about the historical nature of many elements, but some particular stylizations of items could have come from the manga art.
 

Yurt

il capo silenzioso
I could agree about the the wheel weapon, maybe, but Berserk seriously did not invent iron mask torture, plague doctors or... uh, priests and executioners.
These aren't fictional inventions, so they inevitably end in unrelated medieval fiction of all sorts. It would be pretty sad if the creators of Bloodborne needed to read a dumb violent porn comic book to find out about these things.
what Kai Dracon said! And

lpue4Ql.jpg

2578022-1337897944513.jpg

qwCQqZO.png
 

Randam

Member
and I fixed that initial comment you keep clinging to

it's not his helmet, just like this isn't the wheel weapon, that isn't Eileen the Crow, the one next to him isn't the priest from the Cathedral and those aren't the Executioners you encounter in the Witch's Abode



just little things here and there that reference Berserk

or they both just referenced the middle ages. ;)

edit: didn't see we were at page 56 already.

so:
I could agree about the the wheel weapon, maybe, but Berserk seriously did not invent iron mask torture, plague doctors or... uh, priests and executioners.
These aren't fictional inventions, so they inevitably end in unrelated medieval fiction of all sorts. It would be pretty sad if the creators of Bloodborne needed to read a dumb violent porn comic book to find out about these things.


this too.
and even "the wheel" was a thing before.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_wheel

there are a few things, that are berserk references.
but the most are just mediaval references in general from both series.
 

140.85

Cognitive Dissonance, Distilled
But you don't get the nightmare newborn message until after the moon is no longer pale and becomes the "red moon".

Paleblood refers to the great ones. "A Paleblood Sky!" is basically saying "The Sky and the Cosmos are one", and the sky is full of Great Ones. Particularly the moon.

I agree with this take. Paleblood is a misdirection and is probably the name of the Moon Presence.
 

Randam

Member
Yurt pls, don't you know your medieval history?

All blacksmiths were topless and hairy, and called Rickert in their younger years. Plus all dragons are made of crystal.

boy, you guys are funny..



but yeah, you are right.
history books and wikipedia articles etc just took stuff from the berserk manga.
 
Finished and platinumed the game yesterday, making my way through NG+ now but....I've still got so many questions about the ending(s). I'm LTTP, so don't feel obligated to tread over old ground again, however -

- What is the purpose of the hunt in the wider sense? The Yharnam Sunrise ending made me believe it was all a dream. But then what was the significance of the Great Ones etc relative to that dream?
 

Yurt

il capo silenzioso
boy, you guys are funny..



but yeah, you are right.
history books and wikipedia articles etc just took stuff from the berserk manga.

oh man this is just plain sad now :lol, just give it up already, you even admitted as much in the Berserk thread. The series draws quite a bit from the manga, case closed and moving on...

Finished and platinumed the game yesterday, making my way through NG+ now but....I've still got so many questions about the ending(s). I'm LTTP, so don't feel obligated to tread over old ground again, however -

- What is the purpose of the hunt in the wider sense? The Yharnam Sunrise ending made me believe it was all a dream. But then what was the significance of the Great Ones etc relative to that dream?

the million dollar question! I've seen many interesting interpretations in this thread (so I highly recommend you go through a few pages at least) but I personally don't think (or want to believe) that it was all a dream! I think our hunter came to Yharnam in search of a cure, like the other PCs of the previous games, and then he got caught up in a web of cosmic events way bigger in scope than he anticipated, and then just went a long for the ride. Kinda like Jack Nicholson in Chinatown if you will :p

the third ending is exactly what transcending the hunt meant I assume, because you effectively ended it (for yourself?) by becoming a Great One.

I'd like to believe that the Hunter's Dream is an interdimensional place created by the Moon Presence, like that Lecture room drifting in the nightmare of Mensis (or rather Mergo?) and so on, which explains the Nightmare Slain message you get after killing those two?
 
It can't be a dream because the doll tends to your grave after you die. That means the Hunter's Dream exists independently of you.

Yeah. I found this today.

Gehrman is doing you a favour by killing you to set you free but the dream is still there.

If you choose to kill him you're unshackling him from the dream.

I don't feel that any of the endings are as conclusive as Dark Souls 2's DLC ending. They leave too much open imo.

I think the significance of the third ending based on the trophy list descriptions is that you're the first successful Human/Great One hybrid. Since it says you are "lifting humanity into its next childhood". In other words you are the new direction that humanity will take after. In the second ending you are "captivated" by the moon presence and pledge to watch over the hunter's dream so it's clear here that the Moon Presence is responsible for it.

I'd like to see a DLC 4th ending that flips everyone off for something better than what the three current endings provide, like what DK2 did.
 

Sayad

Member
This Berserk discussion, lol! I guess if you call it "dumb violent porn" you'd find it hard to accept that this game you love so much takes a lot of inspirations from it.
 

Derpot

Member
This Berserk discussion, lol! I guess if you call it "dumb violent porn" you'd find it hard to accept that this game you love so much takes a lot of inspirations from it.

Yeah, wut. Berserk is such a good manga. Sure it's not for everyone, but still D:
(Damn, I really need to continue it but I don't really remember where I stopped lol)
 

Yurt

il capo silenzioso
Yeah, wut. Berserk is such a good manga. Sure it's not for everyone, but still D:
(Damn, I really need to continue it but I don't really remember where I stopped lol)
lemme help.......were they on a boat? :p
Yeah. I found this today.

Gehrman is doing you a favour by killing you to set you free but the dream is still there.

If you choose to kill him you're unshackling him from the dream.


I don't feel that any of the endings are as conclusive as Dark Souls 2's DLC ending. They leave too much open imo.

I think the significance of the third ending based on the trophy list descriptions is that you're the first successful Human/Great One hybrid. Since it says you are "lifting humanity into its next childhood". In other words you are the new direction that humanity will take after. In the second ending you are "captivated" by the moon presence and pledge to watch over the hunter's dream so it's clear here that the Moon Presence is responsible for it.

I'd like to see a DLC 4th ending that flips everyone off for something better than what the three current endings provide, like what DK2 did.
Yeah that was my line of thinking as well! Although I can't explain why he was so angry about it, I was just trying to unshackle you buddy -_-
 

Sayad

Member
Are there characters other than Eileen and Djura who mention the dream? Also, did they stop dreaming by allowing Gehrman to kill them? If so, then that's pretty much the undisputed bad ending.

lemme help.......were they on a boat? :p
Are they still on the boat? :D
Seriously asking.
 

CookTrain

Member
It can't be a dream because the doll tends to your grave after you die. That means the Hunter's Dream exists independently of you.

It exists independently, but it can still be a dream. The surface hints seem to suggest that you're in the dream(s) of another and beyond that, you have the whole dream-reality that comes with the reality-bending of the Great Ones.
 

SomTervo

Member
More NPCs also mention this. Either hunters have this moon scent or you in particular have this scent, which would make you special.

The latter might make more sense given the specific dialogue where it's mentioned and the importance of the moon, but the Souls series so far has never been about "the chosen one", they even subvert this idea in Dark Souls, where The Chosen Undead is basically anyone who can get shit done, so I'm more inclined to believe in the former.

V interesting about the Moon Scent stuff. I piked up on the scent thing but i just assumed it was hunters smelling of blood.

However im sure the moon scent thing must just be hunters in general, or common to some hunters. Maybe common to the hunters who visit the hunters' dream.

The 'that scent...' line is often paralleled with 'a hunter, are ya?'
 

Skii

Member
Yeah. I found this today.

Gehrman is doing you a favour by killing you to set you free but the dream is still there.

If you choose to kill him you're unshackling him from the dream.

I don't feel that any of the endings are as conclusive as Dark Souls 2's DLC ending. They leave too much open imo.

I think the significance of the third ending based on the trophy list descriptions is that you're the first successful Human/Great One hybrid. Since it says you are "lifting humanity into its next childhood". In other words you are the new direction that humanity will take after. In the second ending you are "captivated" by the moon presence and pledge to watch over the hunter's dream so it's clear here that the Moon Presence is responsible for it.

I'd like to see a DLC 4th ending that flips everyone off for something better than what the three current endings provide, like what DK2 did.

This doesn't need any other additional endings imo. Dark Souls 2 needed one badly as the original ending was so poorly done. It was essentially the exact same as Dark Souls (which was supposed to be the point) but left absolutely no closure and made the game somewhat irrelevant to the whole timeline.

It was important for DS2 to end with
you rejecting both endings from the first game and going on to find another solution/doing your own thing. That's what the actual player would've done, so why not the character you play in the game?

Are there characters other than Eileen and Djura who mention the dream? Also, did they stop dreaming by allowing Gehrman to kill them? If so, then that's pretty much the undisputed bad ending.

I don't quite understand how waking up from the dream ends you up in the same world as you was in before. What's the point of the dream then? Does that mean you only have the Hunter's dream when it is your turn to seek the Paleblood? Once it is resolved, you wake up and watch on as someone else goes through the same fate?
 

GorillaJu

Member
Why would anyone think Dark Souls/Demon's Souls/BloodBorne isnt inspired by Berserk.

Of course it is. It's not a surprising thing too, it's a fantastic piece of manga.

Also I've heard from a friend of Miyazaki that he's a huge anime/manga fan and he does in fact really like Berserk (but that's not the only one his games are influenced by).
 
Man, I know the answer is "just some random church biddy" but I really want Vicar Amelia to have a bit more importance to the plot. There's something neat going on there with her and the locket and she's such a hard fucking boss I just don't want her to be a load-bearing boss.
 
When you kill Rom, the game tells you "Ritual Secret Broken, seek the nightmare newborn". Isn't this evidence that a ritual was working after all?
 

Kusagari

Member
So is Mother Brain Kos, or some say Kosm?

Its a Great One with a bunch of eyes you can "make contact" with in the same area as Micolash.

Just seems like too big a coincidence.
 
Finished the game today, absolutely loved the turn Bloodborne made from gothic Van Helsing beast-hunting to Lovecraftian body horror, especially since there isn't a lot of the latter in gaming. Reading through all the story analysis and theories for everything is giving me so much appreciation for the effort they put into the world.

I do however have two questions about Bloodborne and to a larger extent the Souls series that I haven't seen brought up elsewhere much, and in the grand scheme of things might not be that important. I've always wondered, is there any form of lore for the reason behind why you can respawn after death as well as enemies, and what the nature behind seeing and interacting with players from other worlds is really about?

In any other game I'd guess both of those would quickly be answered with "Because video games, it's just checkpointing/multiplayer content, don't think too hard about", but with how much detail they put into every facet of Bloodborne/the Souls series I'd like to imagine there being more.
 

Toxi

Banned
So is Mother Brain Kos, or some say Kosm?

Its a Great One with a bunch of eyes you can "make contact" with in the same area as Micolash.

Just seems like too big a coincidence.
Some people think it's Kos/Kosm, though it's kinda weird Micolash would be trying to make contact with it after locking it away.
 

Guevara

Member
Finished the game today, absolutely loved the turn Bloodborne made from gothic Van Helsing beast-hunting to Lovecraftian body horror, especially since there isn't a lot of the latter in gaming. Reading through all the story analysis and theories for everything is giving me so much appreciation for the effort they put into the world.

I do however have two questions about Bloodborne and to a larger extent the Souls series that I haven't seen brought up elsewhere much, and in the grand scheme of things might not be that important. I've always wondered, is there any form of lore for the reason behind why you can respawn after death as well as enemies, and what the nature behind seeing and interacting with players from other worlds is really about?

In any other game I'd guess both of those would quickly be answered with "Because video games, it's just checkpointing/multiplayer content, don't think too hard about", but with how much detail they put into every facet of Bloodborne/the Souls series I'd like to imagine there being more.
As I see it:

Dark Souls: your curse is that you are undead, and therefore cannot truly die. (there's also some stuff about the flow of time being shattered in Lordran) However, the more you die, especially as you lose your souls, you are more likely to hallow and become a shuffling, brainless zombie basically.

BB: your curse is that you are stuck in the nightmare, and therefore cannot wake up. You can transcend the hunt, or you can accept Gerhman's gift of death.
 

kotor22

Member
So quick question, the oldest keepers. I notice they have like 4 pairs of eyes on their armor. Whats their story? Or does it just pretty much end with "The keepers, who mind the slumbering Great Ones"?
 

Steel

Banned
Finished the game today, absolutely loved the turn Bloodborne made from gothic Van Helsing beast-hunting to Lovecraftian body horror, especially since there isn't a lot of the latter in gaming. Reading through all the story analysis and theories for everything is giving me so much appreciation for the effort they put into the world.

I do however have two questions about Bloodborne and to a larger extent the Souls series that I haven't seen brought up elsewhere much, and in the grand scheme of things might not be that important. I've always wondered, is there any form of lore for the reason behind why you can respawn after death as well as enemies, and what the nature behind seeing and interacting with players from other worlds is really about?

In any other game I'd guess both of those would quickly be answered with "Because video games, it's just checkpointing/multiplayer content, don't think too hard about", but with how much detail they put into every facet of Bloodborne/the Souls series I'd like to imagine there being more.

My theory on that(and other things mixed together) from earlier:

That's not it. Remember when you're originally getting a blood transfusion to become a hunter, you're told "You can treat what happens after this as a dream" more or less? The entirety of "The Hunt" is a shared dream of Yharnam used to interact with the Great Ones, and so that the Great ones can create offspring. The Hunter's dream is hosted by the moon presence, but the nightmare is hosted by Micolash, and everything else seems to be hosted by Rom and Amygdalla.

Remember when you murdered Micolash he whines "I'm waking up. Now I'll forget everything!" basically, a perma death in the dream means forgetting everything that happened in the dream and going back to the real world. HOWEVER, I do not think this means that everyone who enters the dream has to die and forget to exit it.

My theory: the point of the hunt/dream is for the people of Yarhnam to gain insight into the great ones to bring into the real world, turning into a beast causes you to be stuck in the dream unless you're forced to accept your death, which is what the hunters are for, they're the emergency ejection system. Hunters themselves have to be able to leave the dream when the job is done, which is why there are Hunters of Hunters like Eileen to force other hunters to accept their death and make them die a final dream death once they stop dreaming. Gherman exists to mop up the last man standing, he's unable to leave the dream himself because he's bound to it by the Moon Presence.

Evidence:

Multiple NPCs are aware of past hunts, they're aware of hunts always ending sooner or later. That's why they stay indoors, they don't want to forget about the hunt and what little knowledge of it they bring home with them, so they try to stay alive and keep themselves from going beast, that's why a lot of the NPCs are outright hostile to you bothering them in their houses(also explains why you hear a couple of houses praying to be blessed with blood, perhaps that's the reward for surviving to the end). It's probably also why the guy who gives you the flamesprayer is glad that he'd probably die before he turns into a beast.

Then you have the hunters who don't dream anymore. Djura and Gascoigne are major examples and both of them have bandaged up eyes as a signifier of their inability to dream. Eyes are related to insight, it's repeated multiple times throughout the game that the more eyes you have the closer you are to the great ones, and they've run out. It's also worth noting that if you go back to the hunter's dream with 0 insight the doll goes back to being inanimate, as well, so it affects your perception of the dream severely. The normal NPCs don't seem to have the same problem(they have functional eyes), probably because they're not bound to the Hunter's Dream(or the moon presence) at all in the first place.

Perhaps the reason why Hunters need to be ejected from the Hunters dream while NPCs do not need to be is because of the blood used to create hunters in the first place making them close enough to beasts that they cannot die in the dream until they've been forced to accept they're death(or accept it on their own) and forget everything. In the true ending you "transcend the hunt" by becoming a great one yourself, and as such you no longer need to be killed(Though you're probably a permanent resident of the dreams now).
 
It exists independently, but it can still be a dream. The surface hints seem to suggest that you're in the dream(s) of another and beyond that, you have the whole dream-reality that comes with the reality-bending of the Great Ones.
In this context, by "a dream", I mean "your dream". I agree that it is A dream, but I also think that dreams are enmeshed with reality in this game.
 
Finished the game today, absolutely loved the turn Bloodborne made from gothic Van Helsing beast-hunting to Lovecraftian body horror, especially since there isn't a lot of the latter in gaming. Reading through all the story analysis and theories for everything is giving me so much appreciation for the effort they put into the world.

I do however have two questions about Bloodborne and to a larger extent the Souls series that I haven't seen brought up elsewhere much, and in the grand scheme of things might not be that important. I've always wondered, is there any form of lore for the reason behind why you can respawn after death as well as enemies, and what the nature behind seeing and interacting with players from other worlds is really about?

In any other game I'd guess both of those would quickly be answered with "Because video games, it's just checkpointing/multiplayer content, don't think too hard about", but with how much detail they put into every facet of Bloodborne/the Souls series I'd like to imagine there being more.

In Dark Souls you are cursed, like everyone else playing the game* (note that) everytime you "respawn" you are becoming more hollow and your reasoning is degrading so you have to search for humanity on living beings to fight the curse long enough to your soul becoming a Great Soul and be inmune to the curse, for a certain time.

Returning to that note, you are not necessary in the game to be finished there are other players who want to be the chosen undead so you see them interacting with the world alonside you buffing your miracles, healing you by heling themselves near to you, invading you, summoning red phantoms or helping you. That was kinda forgotten in DS2 and you become the center of the history .

The trick is and some few really noticed, even if you "fail" there will be another "one" (another player) who will continue the journey and kindle the fire

In BB respawning more diluted and you are practically bond to the Dream so everytime you fail in your jorney you will be saved and transported into the Dream inmediately without any repercusion at all, there is zero interaction with other players outside coop and invasion like dark souls 2 and the history is wraped around you like Dark Souls 2 so the story wont move until you move and will end until you end it.
 
My theory on that(and other things mixed together) from earlier:
The vast majority of what you wrote has no basis in the game. There is no notion that the citizens are dreaming or want to bring back "dream knowledge". There are only a handful of people aware of anything going on.
 

Steel

Banned
The vast majority of what you wrote has no basis in the game. There is no notion that the citizens are dreaming or want to bring back "dream knowledge". There are only a handful of people aware of anything going on.

? Every person you meet, whether they go to a safe zone or not know about the hunt and previous hunts.
 
? Every person you meet, whether they go to a safe zone or not know about the hunt and previous hunts.
They know about "the hunt" like we players do when we start the game. They think it's about killing beasts, and that alone. That's why everyone blames "outsiders" for causing the mess (and most distrust hunters). They think people become beasts because the blood gets corrupted. Outsiders corrupted the blood. The people indoors think the beasts will be quelled again, and they can go back to imbibing blood as they did before. They don't think they're at any risk for becoming beasts themselves, by and large.

They don't know anything about paleblood, and there's no intonation at all that they care about insight or Old Ones. Even Alfred, who is a hunter and knows more than most, innocently thinks the Upper Cathedral Ward is still filled with high ranking church officials.

Almost everyone is ignorant to what is truly going on.
 
Long shot...but while playing NG+ I thought about it a bit more and...does anyone think the body that you find the Workshop Tool on right after killing the Witches of Hemweck is Charyll?

That said...what's the deal with the witches? They're definitely not churchy, but do they have any Great Old One connection? Were they trying to find their own way to speak with the Old Ones and get power by learning the words Charyll wrote down?

Iunno. Probably none of that.
 
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