crimzonflame
Member
What 90 page thesis?
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Bloodborne Story and Lore Discussion Thread [Unmarked Spoilers]
- Thread starter GorillaJu
- Start date
GwyndolinCinder
Member
I believe old Yarhnam is unique, it doesnt seem to be synced properly in time, old yharnam burnt down long ago, yet when we get there its still burning....
It's possible for fires to last a pretty long time. See Centralia, the town where an underground fire's been burning for half a century and will probably burn for a few more centuries.
It's just a bit weird that the Church of the Good Chalice is directly under the Central Yharnam bridges yet somehow the the moon is different despite being under the exact same patch of sky. Think it's just a dev oversight personally.
KittenMaster
Member
Keep in mind these are the same developers where you can make it instantly nighttime in Dark Souls by going down an elevator near the starting hub.
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
yeah I also think it's just a continuity issue. Like, they never bothered to change it.
If you mean New Londo, it's in a cavern.
FF Seraphim
Member
I think they were going with empty/mindless more so than Stupid.
At the Alter of Despair you see a spider like creature on it, people are speculating that the Rom we fight isn't the real one and the real one died long ago...
SamusPrime
Banned
I think this just traces back to old school design in a way and I agree. It's perpetually night in Darkroot Garden after walking down some stairs from a birds-chirping-sunny kind of day in Undead Parish. It makes no logical sense but shifts the atmosphere and feels great.
In a game where the skies signify a significant change/progress however, it's pretty odd although probably has the same thought process behind it.
usp84
Member
Yeah thats better than stupid of course
Interesting about the creature in Ebrietas room
Enb uploaded a new video. If what he speculate about Ooden chapel is true then the skeptical man is right all along about chapel bro is not to be trusted.
Chapel bro asked you to bring in any survivors in hopes of some of them are female so Ooden could find a suitable host to bear a child with. Kinda make sense since skeptical man is the only survivor that hasn't lost himself throughout the whole ordeal while the other 3 female survivors have gone mad.
Chapel bro asked you to bring in any survivors in hopes of some of them are female so Ooden could find a suitable host to bear a child with. Kinda make sense since skeptical man is the only survivor that hasn't lost himself throughout the whole ordeal while the other 3 female survivors have gone mad.
I doubt it. The skeptical man also tells you to be wary of the Arianna because he thinks she resents and despises Adella. He's intentionally written as a hilariously bad judge of character.
KittenMaster
Member
Maybe skeptical man is, well, skeptical of healing blood and also refuses to accept any kind of knowledge of higher beings. That would be kind of funny if that was why he never goes mad, heh.
Kinda feel like it hints at the fact that gaining knowledge that immense about the old ones destroys the mind. That's how I interpreted anyways.
On a different note has there been much discussion about the messengers? Does anyone get a kin vibe from them with the pale white skin and everything?
They actually remind me of Pthumerians.
KittenMaster
Member
I believe they are tied to the nightmare. Not only does the game mention their link to the nightmares at one point, but in earlier builds of the game they were oozing out of nightmare fog boss doors.
Yah basically everything he says is actually the opposite of the truth. The inverse of all his statements is actually the case, as I see it (It's Adella who has the resentment and jealousy, not Arianna etc.)
edit: I get the feeling the messengers and the Doll are at least associated with each other in some manner. They bring you to her at the beginning, afterall.
cm osi
Member
maybe that was a true great one while the rom we fight is a human who became a great one.. dunno
SkylineRKR
Member
My guess is Rom is being made deliberately mindless because she is meant to protect the ritual secrets.
I guess that by being made vacuous, she won't corrupt, desire something else or defect or something. She was just there, guarding something without knowing anything and no ability to do so. Never abandoning her purpose.
But maybe no one can hold all that knowledge with a properly working mind. Its what the game is pretty much about after all.
I guess that by being made vacuous, she won't corrupt, desire something else or defect or something. She was just there, guarding something without knowing anything and no ability to do so. Never abandoning her purpose.
But maybe no one can hold all that knowledge with a properly working mind. Its what the game is pretty much about after all.
Shin Kojima
Banned
I wasn't familiar with the word vacuous before (not my native language), but I was watching Married With Children the other day and saw Kelly being referred to as a vacuous blonde. This is how I think of Rom now.
I like Epic Name Bro's latest video. The short version being: more advanced species tend to be more selective in their reproduction.
For me, everything else kind of falls into place from here. The world is literally going baby-crazy, it's a time of violence and frenzy.
- Lesser animals like dogs and cats have whole litter of babies, and every year.
- Humans tend to have only one or two children, and only when the circumstances are right
- So the Great Ones are probably even more selective, the stars have to align and the stakes are incredibly high
For me, everything else kind of falls into place from here. The world is literally going baby-crazy, it's a time of violence and frenzy.
I tend to think that Rom was vacuous before she got insight. I think see might been disabled or brain dead and was changed by the scholars as a experiment. Maybe other people who tried to become great ones failed so they used somebody who has issues using brain. Scholars might gone crazy due to too much insight so they tried somebody different somebody who doesn't use brain like the rest
Outsiders from distant lands come to Yharnam looking for a cure and i suppose that the same goes for the main character.
I guess that´s the reason why yharnamites hate outsiders and they don´t share any kind information with them,they must think that the special blood that cures any disease should be only for the citizens.
Maybe because yharnamites are a bunch of drunks and they can´t resist the temptation of the blood,which makes me wonder if Arianna was a really a prostitute or just someone who shares her forbidden blood in exchange for money.
Outsiders may have a higher chance of succeeding this task because they´re not addicted to blood.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
oh shiiiit
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Well, we are in a game where the protagonist rode a frozen horse cart through a collapsing bridge towards a hidden snowy castle (which from afar doesn't seem to be snowy at all) so weird is the order of the day, hahaha.
It may not even far-fetched to say that it's just the protagonist's head being screwy here, and what he/she conceived as a "fact" with his/her eyes may or may not be entirely the thing that he/she thinks he/she sees.
KittenMaster
Member
I knew about this for awhile, but I wasn't sure what I could make of it, especially with most people undecided on the extent of Paleblood's meaning.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Everyone's favorite waifu is secretly the mastermind behind it all.
....................
Seriously though, the Moon Presence; what is its purpose/intentions? I think everyone pretty much agreed that the whole Hunt thing is orchestrated by it, yeah? So what *is* its intention? Does it want for the PC to hunt/kill all the other Great Ones? But for whatever purpose? But seeing how the only *required* killable Great One is Margo... (Rom is not a real Great One, I think everyone has agreed to this, yes?), then does it hate Margo and wants the PC to kill it?
Does it views the PC that has swallowed umbilical cords as "oh fuck a competition better kill him/her", but why?
Urghhhhhhhhhhhh.................
Also I think the Moon Presence made the Doll, or at least bringing her alive, which may explain her having paleblood....... gah, I dunno.
KittenMaster
Member
I thought the Hunt was started in retaliation to the beast plague?
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Yes, but it seemed like the Hunter that was tied to the Hunter's Dream was burdened with a different kind of Hunt altogether by the Moon Presence. At least not simply just an ordinary beast hunt. You can say the Moon Presence piggybacked the concept of the normal Hunt for its own reasons.
But what reasons? I don't get it, I honestly don't. It doesn't seem to mind if you accept Gerhman's kindess of releasing you from the dream since it doesn't interrupt, and yet if you refuse and manage to best the First Hunter it came down personally from whatever it is snoozing to fold you into a new guardian of the dream... I mean, huh? For what? You have proven yourself as an entity strong enough to best the Great Ones and...it folded you as a mere Guardian of the Dream? For what..., the next cycles of the Hunt?
And it seemed pissed if you consume the cords... why? Or maybe its intention all along was to find a human strong enough to become a Great One, and that that last battle with him was actually a test?
This is a question that's been bugging me regarding the story for quite some time, yah. I assume it's safe to infer that it wants a child as well. Another piece of info is one of the umbilical cord's descriptions.
"The Third Umbilical Cord precipitated the encounter with the pale moon, which beckoned the hunters and conceived the Hunter's Dream."
This cord in particular doesn't really have a very defined origin. It's found in the Old Workshop next to the "actual"(?) doll. One comes from Iosefka, one from Arianna, and one from Mergo's Wet Nurse which all have a pretty clear origin and reason for having them but this one in particular is puzzling. However it appeared, that's what brought for the pale moon (the red moon) and the Moon Presence. It came and took (presumably) Gehrman and so came the dream we know.
This specific cord has a connection to the Moon Presence. How, I dunno, maybe it came from the Doll? Somehow?
A problem with determining the Moon Presence's goals is because we don't know if it's directly controlling Gehrman or just imprisoning him. Gehrman wants us to seek out the chapel and tells us we are done hunting after the Wet Nurse (and in turn, Mergo) are dead. He lets us go afterwards, if we so choose.
Whether this is something the Moon Presence wants or not is a big question. You can take the burning church as Gehrman rebelling (I like to) but it doesn't quite fit because you'd think it'd piss of the Moon Presence directly in some manner. But it only shows up after Gehrman is dead to get a new host for the dream and continue the dream and hunt for reasons?
If it's only goal is to kill the Wet Nurse/Mergo, then I'd imagine it wouldn't care about the dream anymore but clearly that's not the case. So maybe this is something Gehrman wants and the Moon Presence doesn't care. The Great Ones don't have to be all friendly with each other. They probably don't give two shits about each other and just want a kid for themselves. This is a ton of rambling but basically the Moon Presence probably wants a kid but what we do throughout the game doesn't feel like we are working to that. To end the hunt, killing the Moon Presence (and in turn the Red Moon) is the only way. Gehrman doesn't really lead us to that. He just tells us we are done after the Wet Nurse is dead when the hunt isn't actually over. So in that sense, Gehrman either doesn't know or can't tell you? He clearly wants out, he's waiting on Laurence, but in no one hints at you to help him.
Basically I have no idea.
Also about the implications for the Doll: There are only a few people/creatures that have Pale Blood: Willem, the blue alien kin dudes (Celestial Emissaries), and I might be wrong (going off of memory) the Celestial children. These three are all humans that became "ascended" or elevated. They are "kin" in this sense. Not actual great ones. The only thing that throws a wrench in this is Rom. Perhaps Rom is a more "pure" great one in a sense even when we are told that she ascended to this status.
Now with the Doll, the thing that's real weird is that she's in a "dream" world. Not in Yharnam's dimension/plane. Also the part where she's a doll and we don't know if she was human or anything like that. But she has blood. That's the really weird part. She's not a manipulated automaton or anything like that. She is herself and has her own thoughts and feelings (or had feelings once). I assume it's tied to being cared for as an actual doll in Yharnam but how that translates to her or why she is the way she is who fawkin knows.
Somehow, she's definitely more than just a doll, and more akin to kin (hue hue).
KittenMaster
Member
the cords knocked the moon presence away forcefully so I think in that scenario that speaks more of the hunter's intentions than ehat the moon presence wants
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Gehrman cries in his sleep begging to be released from the dream, so I think it is safe to say that he's being imprisoned there without his consent. Still fuck all if I know about the intention of the Moon Presence, however; whatever idea I have for its intention seemed to be deftly countered by what it does in the game, hahaha...
As for the Doll, I actually think the umbilical cord belonged to her; or to be more precise, the human woman she's modeled after; probably someone related to Gehrman, maybe his wife/lover/daughter, I dunno. The Doll costumes' description said straight-out that they were made by someone with an obsession, after all.
Well that's just the thing! It doesn't interfere when Gehrman offered the Hunter to be released, and only personally came down if you best him in combat, so one thing that it DOES want is to have someone to become the guardian of the dream. But for what..........? If its intention is to kill the competition; Margo; then why does it feel the need to fold the Hunter in becoming the next Gehrman and the dream to continue..................?
The Xtortionist
Member
What if the Moon Presence is just a giant dick who uses hunters to slaughter the children of other Great Ones?
Gehrman cries in his sleep begging to be released from the dream, so I think it is safe to say that he's being imprisoned there without his consent. Still fuck all if I know about the intention of the Moon Presence, however; whatever idea I have for its intention seemed to be deftly countered by what it does in the game, hahaha...
As for the Doll, I actually think the umbilical cord belonged to her; or to be more precise, the human woman she's modeled after; probably someone related to Gehrman, maybe his wife/lover/daughter, I dunno. The Doll costumes' description said straight-out that they were made by someone with an obsession, after all.
Regarding Gehrman, I just meant that what he tells you to do and when he thinks you have succeeded might just be Moon Presence's desires speaking through him rather than himself. That just muddies up Moon Presence's intentions a lot because it's not clear if it's specifically Gehrman's wishes or Moon Presence's.
And yes, I was thinking the Doll is the most likely candidate for the cord but how that works out logistically is where I just get lost.
Bots are better than you
Banned
Reading many theories here and on other sites, this lore-digging is something i love about the Souls-games.
What i think is, that the great ones themselves are working against each other. If they all worked for the same goal, presence in the "real world" through blood, offsprings and nightmares, why would they support opposing human forces?
Willem stands for "Fear the blood", points to the lake where Rom is hiding/being kept, and is seemingly under watch of the Healing Church (Choir hunter guarding the college). So i think he is supporting the nightmare-route that is practiced in Yahar'gul.
Maybe the Church used Rom to lock out the Nightmare Great Ones, as her death seems to trigger some chaotic events (multiple pregnancies, the red moon, the summoning of the One Reborn in Yahar'gul).
The Healing Church using the ways of Laurence try to use the blood to become closer to Great Ones, maybe they don't serve them, but try to prevent/prepare for an unwanted encounter.
The Great Ones seem to differ too. Let's look at the Church-Great One, Ebrietas, and those Slug-Babies in the Upper Cathedral Ward, they appear rather Slug-like, tentacle like, the Moon Presence has some similar traits.
The "nightmarish"-Great Ones, Amygdala and the Wet Nurse, look more insect/spider-like (also, the spider-theme of the Nightmare-levels) or better said, more horrifying, more dark.
So the Moon Presence uses the hunt to find a capable hunter, sets him up to search for the nightmarish Great Ones and have him kill the (maybe) creature, that would enable them to enter the real world.
If Gerhman kills you, he acts like the Moon Presence wants. The job is done, the tool is being disposed. Since this means that Gerhman lives, it is certainly not what he himself wants.
If you kill Gerhman, you are being used as the next host of the hunters dream. Since the nightmare will try to enter the human world once again, the hunters dream needs to exists for scouting the next capable hunter.
Avoiding the Moon Presence slavery by consuming the cords could mean that you achieve the goal of the Healing Church.
Remember, the Hunter seems to have infected blood, the old blood, and evolves into a great one in this ending, which is what the Church wants. Become great ones by using the old blood.
Long ass post, gotta love the lore-discussions!
What i think is, that the great ones themselves are working against each other. If they all worked for the same goal, presence in the "real world" through blood, offsprings and nightmares, why would they support opposing human forces?
Willem stands for "Fear the blood", points to the lake where Rom is hiding/being kept, and is seemingly under watch of the Healing Church (Choir hunter guarding the college). So i think he is supporting the nightmare-route that is practiced in Yahar'gul.
Maybe the Church used Rom to lock out the Nightmare Great Ones, as her death seems to trigger some chaotic events (multiple pregnancies, the red moon, the summoning of the One Reborn in Yahar'gul).
The Healing Church using the ways of Laurence try to use the blood to become closer to Great Ones, maybe they don't serve them, but try to prevent/prepare for an unwanted encounter.
The Great Ones seem to differ too. Let's look at the Church-Great One, Ebrietas, and those Slug-Babies in the Upper Cathedral Ward, they appear rather Slug-like, tentacle like, the Moon Presence has some similar traits.
The "nightmarish"-Great Ones, Amygdala and the Wet Nurse, look more insect/spider-like (also, the spider-theme of the Nightmare-levels) or better said, more horrifying, more dark.
So the Moon Presence uses the hunt to find a capable hunter, sets him up to search for the nightmarish Great Ones and have him kill the (maybe) creature, that would enable them to enter the real world.
If Gerhman kills you, he acts like the Moon Presence wants. The job is done, the tool is being disposed. Since this means that Gerhman lives, it is certainly not what he himself wants.
If you kill Gerhman, you are being used as the next host of the hunters dream. Since the nightmare will try to enter the human world once again, the hunters dream needs to exists for scouting the next capable hunter.
Avoiding the Moon Presence slavery by consuming the cords could mean that you achieve the goal of the Healing Church.
Remember, the Hunter seems to have infected blood, the old blood, and evolves into a great one in this ending, which is what the Church wants. Become great ones by using the old blood.
Long ass post, gotta love the lore-discussions!
ts intention seemed to be deftly countered by what it does in the game, hahaha...
As for the Doll, I actually think the umbilical cord belonged to her; or to be more precise, the human woman she's modeled after; probably someone related to Gehrman, maybe his wife/lover/daughter, I dunno. The Doll costumes' description said straight-out that they were made by someone with an obsession, after all.
I think the Doll is related to that Gehrman apprentice where the old hunter bone comes. You can find her praying his supposedly tomb (I say his because that's where you find the bone in the real Workshop).
Might be because Old Yahrnam isn't in the same time frame! Everything about it being burned down point to it happening a long time ago, yet when you're there it's still burning. It's also not burning when you look at it from the bridge in Yahrnam.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Hmmm, this is probably the closest we can get to an actual answer as to the identity of the Doll... or rather, the person the Doll is modeled after.
Nah, I think "burned down" here is referring to the actual burning down of the entire area; the area that we traversed through was the left-over of that action; after all, it seemed broken/burnt out in many spots, like for example the cathedral where BsB dwells (it has no roof)
The ones being burned in the area when we visited the place are creatures and not building; I personally think it was Djura and that Hunter that did all that burning, probably to save those that has suffered the plague in a level that is beyond help, so it is not inconceivable that the fires were still on since perhaps the creatures that were burned were put there just recently.
I like to believe the The Doll is an image of Gherman's wife who died after giving birth to a demon and thus the third umbilical cord you find in the old workshop.
The Moon Presence sees the other dream (Nightmare of Mensis) as a rival, that's why your mission ends after you kill Mergo's Wet Nurse. If you kill Gherman without consuming the umbilical cords, The Moon Presence has no other choice than make you his successor to continue the Dream. Otherwise it sees you as another rival who must be killed.
At least that's how I see it.
I don't even know what this implies. What is pale blood / what does it mean?
crimzonflame
Member
Isnt the "bad" ending really the good ending? I mean it seems happier or at least brighter than the two other endings.
KittenMaster
Member
Right now I subscribe to the theory that Gherman is the surrogate for the Moon Presence's child (Great Ones have great difficulty bearing children, so they seek surrogates), and when you kill Gherman (something that wasn't planned) it decides to take you in his place.