OniBarubary
Banned
Considering the number of people dead who show up in them as well as dead people in Chalice Dungeons, I mean, hey anything is possible.
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Bloodborne Story and Lore Discussion Thread [Unmarked Spoilers]
- Thread starter GorillaJu
- Start date
Considering the number of people dead who show up in them as well as dead people in Chalice Dungeons, I mean, hey anything is possible.
Karsticles
Member
Remember that we have to take a portal to enter the nightmare. There isn't any reason to doubt that we could encounter the dead in other nightmares. They just need to add a new portal.
If the person that the Cleric Beast was is someone that we have seen or heard about it, it'd be Ludwig. You can speculate that it can be any nameless Church Hunter Chief but we know of none other than Ludwig (and while he is not named, it's easy to conclude that he would have been one as he is the first).
The Sword Hunter Badge is also a symbol of the Church Hunters and can easily relate to Ludwig as much as the Radiant version.
The Forgotten Madman is a silly second choice as there are a handful of other NPCs that also use the Holy Blade. It's been shown that these weapons aren't "special" or unique weapons. Many can have variants of the same weapon so just because one has it doesn't mean that it is theirs. Just like the crazy beast claw hunter in the Chalice Dungeons isn't Irreverent Izzy.
edit:
Also I would take a guess that Ludwig is probably very old if he is still alive and human. Older than any hunter we've met (as you can conclude that he came shortly after Gehrman who shouldn't be alive and has outgrown most people that he's known).
edit edit:
The other more obvious answer is that the Cleric Beast is just no one of import.
I think the Cleric Beast may just be someone of no import but there is definitely some pull for Ludwig.
But since Paarl is pointed at not necessarily being Archibald it's possible then that the Cleric Beast is just some dude.
KittenMaster
Member
Lol. That happened to me when I did the Clinic skip last patch.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
I think Paarl is the beast that *inspires* Archibald to create those electric weapons of his; it fits the item description. Well, or one of the folks he gave his badge to, that works as well. I like the 1st one better though.
I also think the Cleric Beast is not Ludwig but rather a high ranked member of the Healing Church; it's just the way the badge we got from him is described that makes me think that.
Yep. He replaces ALL the NPCs in Central Yharnam, for example. I don't know whether it is a bug or not--if it's not, it is rather creepy.
The point of contention is whether that certain captain was Ludwig at the time or not.
I'll hold that it's Ludwig until I see evidence that says otherwise.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
I realized that.
However Ludwig is quite probably one of the oldest Hunters so I guess I feel it's kind of weird for him to become the Cleric Beast... and besides, it drops the Sword Hunter Badge, not the Radiant Sword Hunter Badge, and as the Badge description says: "One of the badges crafted by the Healing Church. The silver sword is a symbol of a Church hunter.
Ludwig was the first of many Healing Church hunters to come, many of Whom were clerics. As it was, clerics transformed into the most hideous beasts."
I think the bolded really implies that it is one of the clerics that transformed into the Cleric Beast and not Ludwig himself.
Oh, yah I can see how it can be read that way.
Another translation where I'd like to know how it's written in Japanese.
Yeah and I don't really see him being the madman boss with the Holy greatsword and the rifle in the old labyrinth as he's accompanied with another madman wielding that hammer-sword, they're most likely just Tomb Prospectors that went mad there.
I'm almost 100% certain we will see Ludwig in future DLC.
A little off-topic and I don't know if someone has already posted it but this is one of the best things ever lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kESblhp325I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kESblhp325I
OniBarubary
Banned
I'm a tad curious about the little midgety dudes in Nightmare of Mensis. That just...shuffle around and rarely agro. They're very weird. Just...full face masks and armor but nothing like them outside the Nightmare. Creeped me the hell out when they're heads tracked you. Really unsettling.
Mermandala
Member
Totally outside of game lore but there was a dwarf god named Bes in Egypt that was associated with protection especially in regards to childbirth. He is often accompanied by a Hippopotamus deity named Taweret who was specific to protecting pregnant mothers. The pair would also show up on temples in general to ward off dangerous forces. Together they certainly attended births and protected newborn children.
Anyway, here are some pics of statues:
I have a passing interest in Mesopotamian mythology and it just jumped out at me when I saw those freakish little dudes. (Pthumerian / Sumerian is a Lovecraft-styled naming possibility as well)
As I understand it there are also people or beings or whatever they to serve and attend to Mergo.
GwyndolinCinder
Member
Does anyone know Laurence's name in the japan version ?
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
ローレンス
So, just, Laurence. There aren't many character name changes this time around.
I think one of the biggest changes is that アメンドーズ (Amendoze?) became "Amygdala" in the English version.
KittenMaster
Member
Man. After hearing it pointed out that the heads of the crows and dog heads are switched in Mergo's Loft, I can't unsee it now. I did first notice the boars with many eyes because one was carrying my souls and it freaked me out to see that many eyes glow.
I also just realized that the dead guy that you interact to go to the top level of the Lecture Hall could be Micolash himself.
Interesting connection I made is that it is possible that even if the Umbasa reference was kept in Bloodbourne, that Father Gascoigne might've been the only one to ever mutter it as his armor set implies that he comes from a foreign land. It is possible that he might have come from a place and a church where the god often referenced in Demon's Souls is worshiped.
I also just realized that the dead guy that you interact to go to the top level of the Lecture Hall could be Micolash himself.
Interesting connection I made is that it is possible that even if the Umbasa reference was kept in Bloodbourne, that Father Gascoigne might've been the only one to ever mutter it as his armor set implies that he comes from a foreign land. It is possible that he might have come from a place and a church where the god often referenced in Demon's Souls is worshiped.
That would make sense, since it's mentioned in his clothing descriptions that his title "Father" is used for clerics where he comes from.
The major plot revelation/secret in Demons is that their God and the Old One are one and the same. The whole church was based around holy miracles that came from God but the source is truly just The Old One just like it is for sorceries.
KittenMaster
Member
I know, but I assume Father Gascoigne wouldn't know about that.
I've been slowly reading the lore discussion here and there's really heavy, insightful theories that have been discussed so far. Haven't read this thread till the end but there's one thing that has been nagging me ever since I finished the game yesterday night.
Why does Gehrman only allow us to leave the dream after we've killed Mergo's wet nurse? Does him allowing us to leave have anything at all to do with the slaying of the wet nurse? Or is it just because the night has passed and thus, the hunt has come to an end? Are hunter's only allowed to access the Hunter's Dream during the night of the hunt then? And what was the purpose of bringing the hunters over to the Hunter's Dream? Are we just there to slay as many beasts as we can throughout the night?
Also why the burning church? I initially assumed that it was to signify the crumbling of the hunter's dream as the night/hunt is coming to an end. But the ending in which we accepted Gehrman's offer of mercy (and your hunter wakes up as the sun finally rises in the horizon-- indicating that the nightly hunt is over) shows the doll praying at your grave I assume? And, the church is looking just fine.
Why does Gehrman only allow us to leave the dream after we've killed Mergo's wet nurse? Does him allowing us to leave have anything at all to do with the slaying of the wet nurse? Or is it just because the night has passed and thus, the hunt has come to an end? Are hunter's only allowed to access the Hunter's Dream during the night of the hunt then? And what was the purpose of bringing the hunters over to the Hunter's Dream? Are we just there to slay as many beasts as we can throughout the night?
Also why the burning church? I initially assumed that it was to signify the crumbling of the hunter's dream as the night/hunt is coming to an end. But the ending in which we accepted Gehrman's offer of mercy (and your hunter wakes up as the sun finally rises in the horizon-- indicating that the nightly hunt is over) shows the doll praying at your grave I assume? And, the church is looking just fine.
As usual there won't be any direct or obvious answers. Especially considering these are some of the questions the game doesn't nudge you towards at all. We know the Hunters dream the same dream (Eileen mentions the Doll in a line) and they all go through Gehrman. What we don't know are 1) Gehrman's goals and 2) Moon Presence's goals.
Moon Presence controls Gehrman (indirectly) and one of the few things the crazy speculation stuff that the 90page thesis thing brought up that I found insightful is mentioning that the Great Ones don't necessarily have to all be on the same "side". It could be that the Moon Presence wants you to take out Mergo's Wet Nurse. That could be one answer.
We know absolutely nothing about how long Hunter's dream keeps someone and whether a single night of hunting is all that transpires. We know this happens often but that sort of implies that beasts aren't much of an issue during times when hunts aren't an issue? We know nothing about the properties of the "Night of the Hunt". Is it every night? Is just when there's a full moon? The Red Moon appears because Rom isn't there to hide it/defend us from it/however you want to interpret it. Is it only when the Great Ones descend to bless a womb with a child? The beast plague happens because of the blood and that doesn't necessarily demand the Great Ones being around (Red Moon) but that would also imply that beasts are always an issue which we aren't really told much about aside from "Nightly Hunts".
I consider the Dream Moon Presence's method to create a hunter that can handle the scourge of beasts while a good surrogate is searched for. But who knows. Again, it's hardly addressed.
Initially I thought the burning church was Gehrman rebelling but that wouldn't really make sense since it always happens and the Moon Presence doesn't seem pissed off right away. So it's probably just the dream fading to the sun or something like that. It exists as all the dreams "exist" as planes but it's been shown that it's affected by the Moon, Red Moon, and presumably the Sun.
Handy Fake
Member
This game's begging to be made into a film.
Or a series. Get the director of the "Hannibal" series in to do it.
With Mads Mikkelsen in a role. As the lead, or Gehrman.
Or a series. Get the director of the "Hannibal" series in to do it.
With Mads Mikkelsen in a role. As the lead, or Gehrman.
KittenMaster
Member
I don't think it's a huge mystery why Gehrman would want you to awaken. He's expressed disdain for his fate and if you pay attention to the Doll's dialogue she prays for your own awakening.
Yah, I was just considering if Gehrman has any ulterior motives or if he has simply resigned himself to waiting for Laurence and lost hope in any other options out.
So after chewing it over for a week, here are some random thoughts on Bloodborne lore. This has probably already been discussed, but I haven't kept up with the thread.
- Rom was a scholar at Byrgenwerth who "ascended" to become a Great One? Micolash says he was "granted eyes", which throughout the game is a reference to gaining insight. More insight -> becoming a great one (or a being like it?)
- Everyone in Yharnam had the capacity to become beasts, but cleansed themselves with blood to avoid this. This was brought about by the Healing Church.
- The Vilebloods did not partake in blood healing, and the church considered them unclean and prone to beastial nature. They were killed by Logarius. Except for the Queen, who can regenerate for some reason.
- Less insight = more beast, more insight = more ascended
- The Healing Church worshiped some Great Ones? And eventually brought down one from space as Ebrietas?
- Followers of Micolash seeked to remove their beastial nature by ascending through some weird rituals. They were able to channel themselves into the Nightmare of Mensis by wearing weird caged masks.
- The "dreams" are really dreams of separate great ones? Yharnam being the dream of Rom? Mensis being the dream of that big brain in there? And Nightmare Frontier the dream of Amygdala?
- Micolash wanted to create a new great one? That's why Yharnam was in the Nightmare and Mergo's Wet Nurse was there, too. They were going to take care of the baby great one?
- The One Reborn represents abortion? Failed summonings by the followers of Micolash/Worshippers of Mensis?
- There's clearly some distinction between those that are beasts and those that take too much blood, but I'm not sure what it is. For instance, how did Amelia turn into a beast even though she was part of the church and likely used blood healing? Same for Father Guacamole?
- Yharnam was a dream, possibly protected by Rom? Is the Moon Presence the Great One dreamer and Gehrman the hunter? What does the hunt have anything to do with the dream?
The way I've understood it, it was the blood healing (specifically using the blood of the old ones) that led to the beast scourge. Using too much blood seems to be what's causing people to turn.
Old Yarhnam also have the regular night sky no matter what
Am I crazy or the Yharnam Stone has..a child....in it? I see a head and small arms
Bloodborne what the fuck.
heh, considering that when you fight her, she has her baby inside, and the text says that her "consiousness" is just asleep and stirs in unsettling motions... who knows lol
I think Yarhnam is pretty much real. The Hunter dream is well... the dream, and it's by Gerhman, controlled by the Moon Presence. Anyways, the dreams have their own existence, so even if the original dreamer dies, that world still remains, like we see in Mensis.
Also, I though the blood is what turned you into a beast. Blood = Beast, Insight = kin/alien/whatever the fuck they are.
Willem telling Laurence to fear the old blood - Laurence not giving a fuck - you find Laurence skull with a beast form.
Question: What are the Messengers? You see statues of them in the Pthumerian tombs and the description for the White Ribbon suggests they're very old. Were they always inhabitants of the dream? Their pale white skin and gaunt features remind me of the Pthumerians, but they're little weak guys instead of superhumans. Why do they idolize the Hunters so much?
It was pointed earlier (someone even took a screenshot) that you can see Mergo's Loft from the Nightmare Frontier.
Whether the Hunter Dream is in the same...dimension? as the nightmares is anyone's guess, but I'd assume so.
Only one real world, and only one dream world is the safest assumption.
Whether the Hunter Dream is in the same...dimension? as the nightmares is anyone's guess, but I'd assume so.
Only one real world, and only one dream world is the safest assumption.
The (old) blood is actually causing the scourge of the beast. "Fear the old blood" is all about this. Like every other hunter Guascoigne used blood and in the end he became a beast as well.
I thought it was worth it. He presents all of the in game lore in a fairly organized manner, so even though some of his theories may be stretching it, it'll help you connect a lot of dots you might have otherwise missed. Also, 90 pages isn't *that* long.
Byrgenwerth, I kinda get why, but Old Yarhnam not changing skying makes me think it was on oversight on the devs. That, or, Old Yarhnam is unique in some way.
Punished_Snake
Member
I understand the lore, but there is something that I don't understand. Can anybody tell me why a foreigner (the player) is seeking pale blood? Why a foreigner not someone from Yarnam? In general, I don't understand the motivation behind the main character coming to Yarnam.
KittenMaster
Member
I think it's a combination of not being able to implement the paleblood sky in every area and then having an in-universe explanation for that limitation afterward.
Does anybody know what the explanation is for how the obviously supernatural enemies in Cainhurst work?
Does anybody know what the explanation is for how the obviously supernatural enemies in Cainhurst work?
Pretty cool thing about insight, I used up all of my insight at the messenger shop, re-loaded the Hunter's Dream, and the Doll went back to be idle. I still could channel echos though. Kinda cool.
But then, there would Paleblood in Nightmare of Mensis, seeing as Kosm is there. It could be b/c of it being a nightmare dream, like LiK mentioned.
But then, there would Paleblood in Nightmare of Mensis, seeing as Kosm is there. It could be b/c of it being a nightmare dream, like LiK mentioned.
You also can't seethe red moon in Nightmare of Mensis. Makes you wonder if that's a sign of when you're in a dream.
KittenMaster
Member
so the Moon Presence is just located in that area, i assume.
Hemwick Charnel Lane also gets the Paleblood sky.
Am I crazy or the Yharnam Stone has..a child....in it? I see a head and small arms
Bloodborne what the fuck.
yes, that is a stillborne old god fetus
EDIT: looks like I have been thinking DA. Should read: stillborne great one fetus
Read at least the last chapter, from page 60 or something I think.