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[Adaren]

I am saying that they should be "First Cord", "Second Cord", "Third Cord" and "Fourth Cord", but programming limitations made them all "Third Cord", just like programming limitations make the "Behold! A Paleblood sky" message never change.

(programming limitations here is just lazyness. The third cord one is more complex, but changing the paleblood message should have been trivial)

Just jumping in to say that this is absurd. The cords don't stack and each have different descriptions, so the game clearly differentiates between them. Saying that they had to have the same name because of programming doesn't make any sense. We probably shouldn't be making baseless assumptions about what the devs could program, especially when there's evidence to the contrary.

On the note of the "paleblood sky", keep in mind that you can see the blood moon early with enough insight. This suggests that Rom is hiding the true sky, much like he masks the Amygdalae. The person who wrote the note probably just had high insight (not unreasonable since the note is in Yahar'gul / near the School of Mensis iirc).

 

[pantsmith]

I don't think we'll ever know for sure about the Moon Presence's objectives, and I'm ok with that, personally. This is unsurprising considering where they pulled inspiration from.

Unless we get it through other means, like design works interviews or whatever, but I don't think there's anything in the game to tell us what the Moon Presence wants. It's one of the intentionally vague things for people to think about, and kinda fits the theme of "Great Ones are far beyong our understanding".

There's a lot of parallels and subversions of core Christian ideas, which I think accounts for the moon presence.

If Odeon is nightmare God and Mergo is nightmare Jesus, then the Moon Presence is the nightmare Holy Spirit. Queen Yharnam is the nightmare equivalent to the Virgin Mary. We're talking varying degrees of Old One divinity, all converging at the same point.

Just going off of the motif of chalices and communion, if Christianity is about communing with Christ through his blood from a chalice, thus partaking in his salvation/divinity, Queen Yharnam's blood is made several shades of unholy by bearing Odeon's child (Mergo). That's why drinking her blood is so powerful, just as the blood from the Holy Grail is said to do much the same.

There's an article on Kotaku that asks whether the blood we're consuming is all menstrual blood because we get the most potent stuff from women -- I'd argue that we get it from women because they have a stronger connection to Odeon, and they share their blood in the likeness of Yharnam (though never as potently as her gift). Saints are trained by the Church because they need more of it than one person can produce and distribute, and people like the prostitute or Vilebloods Queen are shunned because they are deemed perversions of the Church's ritual.

We're all passing around the same empowered blood, originally sourced from Yharnam. The exception is the pale blood, which is cosmic alien blood not from this world.

To answer the question of why umbilical cords summon the Moon Presence, we've just slain the mothers/hosts of Odeon's influence and consumed the flesh of his unformed surrogates. Moon Presence, if I am correct in assuming it is synonymous with the Moon and Odeon, is there to kill you because you just committed an abhorrent act against him. Then, by killing "it", instead of taking its blood like you would every other enemy, you siphon its supernatural power which turns you into a baby Great One.

 

[ElFly]

Just jumping in to say that this is absurd. The cords don't stack and each have different descriptions, so the game clearly differentiates between them. Saying that they had to have the same name because of programming doesn't make any sense. We probably shouldn't be making baseless assumptions about what the devs could program, especially when there's evidence to the contrary.

On the note of the "paleblood sky", keep in mind that you can see the blood moon early with enough insight. This suggests that Rom is hiding the true sky, much like he masks the Amygdalae. The person who wrote the note probably just had high insight (not unreasonable since the note is in Yahar'gul / near the School of Mensis iirc).

None of the interpretations make sense. If they are all "Third cord", where are the first and second cords. If they are "One third of cord", why is the american game the only one that says that. The other interpretations that make sense are

-the correct name is "one of three cords"
-the names were supposed to change as "first cord", "second cord", "third cord" as you found them but they just left them all as third cord.

Ah, the paleblood sky note thing is interesting tho. But wait, are you sure about this? Wiki says the moon changes independent of insight.

edit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmqpYhl4mHc

this video suggests the moon doesn't change at 40 insight, which is the cutoff to see the amydgala. We have a huge fight on whether Rom is really blocking the red moon, or if it is just the natural time passing, so I assume that would have come up if the moon changed with enough insight as an argument in support of the blocking side. Have to assume you are wrong.

 

[Veritigo_X]

Yeah, we have nothing on him, aside from him being mentioned and the fact that he seems like kind of a big deal.

Archibald has a much more clear importance to the overall lore than Izzy, imo.

Hopefully we'll get more info on him in the hopefully already in development DLC?

Archibald is definitely more important, but we also get a good amount of info on him from all the different bolt items. We have next to nothing on Izzy, but maybe that says how important the character is. I do hope some of these item description characters make an appearance in DLC. I want to go back in time and fight Ludwig.

 

[Gbraga]

Archibald is definitely more important, but we also get a good amount of info on him from all the different bolt items. We have next to nothing on Izzy, but maybe that says how important the character is. I do hope some of these item description characters make an appearance in DLC. I want to go back in time and fight Ludwig.

YES

 

[pantsmith]

Archibald is definitely more important, but we also get a good amount of info on him from all the different bolt items. We have next to nothing on Izzy, but maybe that says how important the character is. I do hope some of these item description characters make an appearance in DLC. I want to go back in time and fight Ludwig.

Ludwig is definitely the Artorias-equivalent of this game. And the crazy thing is he is on parity with Gherman in terms of how important he is to botht he hunt and history of the world, and we never find out what happened to him!

 

[Veritigo_X]

Ludwig is definitely the Artorias-equivalent of this game. And the crazy thing is he is on parity with Gherman in terms of how important he is to botht he hunt and history of the world, and we never find out what happened to him!

Has it been established whose grave it is in the Abandoned Workshop where you find the Old Hunter's Bone? It's the same grave in the Hunter's Dream where the Doll prays. I need to read that 90 page lore document so I'm a bit behind, but I figured it was either Ludwig's grave or Gehrman's grave with Ludwig being the one who placed the Old Hunter's Bone there.

 

[Defuser]

Speaking on paleblood, it just occur to me the opening scene with the blood minister, his dialogue started with "oh yes...paleblood.... well you came to the right place."

It seems to me the player knew about paleblood all this while which is why the player came to yharnam in the first place.

 

[Zaventem]

Ludwig is definitely the Artorias-equivalent of this game. And the crazy thing is he is on parity with Gherman in terms of how important he is to botht he hunt and history of the world, and we never find out what happened to him!

Based Ludwig DLC incoming.

 

[Gbraga]

Speaking on paleblood, it just occur to me the opening scene with the blood minister, his dialogue started with "oh yes...paleblood.... well you came to the right place."

It seems to me the player knew about paleblood all this while which is why the player came to yharnam in the first place.

The player character is ludwig

shyamalan.jpg

 

[pantsmith]

Has it been established whose grave it is in the Abandoned Workshop where you find the Old Hunter's Bone? It's the same grave in the Hunter's Dream where the Doll prays. I need to read that 90 page lore document so I'm a bit behind, but I figured it was either Ludwig's grave or Gehrman's grave with Ludwig being the one who placed the Old Hunter's Bone there.

It's implied that workshop is tied to Gehrman, and his dream/experience as the first hunter. The bone seems tied to one of Gehrmans apprentices, and his style of fighting ("quickening"). Based on what we know Ludwig came after, used different tools, had a different style, and probably worked from further within the church. Hard to say, though.

The 90 page document is great, truly, but I disagree with a couple of his conclusions (which is okay!) so don't take it as fact. That said, I agree with the author's hypothesis that Ludwig went mad on an expedition into the Labyrinth, and that he had the old hunter workshop sealed after church hunters took over managing the Hunt.

 

[Adaren]

None of the interpretations make sense. If they are all "Third cord", where are the first and second cords. If they are "One third of cord", why is the american game the only one that says that. The other interpretations that make sense are

-the correct name is "one of three cords"
-the names were supposed to change as "first cord", "second cord", "third cord" as you found them but they just left them all as third cord.

Ah, the paleblood sky note thing is interesting tho. But wait, are you sure about this? Wiki says the moon changes independent of insight.

edit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmqpYhl4mHc

this video suggests the moon doesn't change at 40 insight, which is the cutoff to see the amydgala. We have a huge fight on whether Rom is really blocking the red moon, or if it is just the natural time passing, so I assume that would have come up if the moon changed with enough insight as an argument in support of the blocking side. Have to assume you are wrong.

I actually misremembered the Insight thing; my bad. I think I got the idea from the Miyazaki interview at the end of the guide, but I'll check it tonight to verify before I cite it as evidence.

On the note of the Umbilical Cord, I don't think the UK/EU translations are intending to say something different than the US one. It's not unheard of to put fractional words as lone descriptors in front of nouns (e.g. "half pint" instead of "one half of a pint"). The interpretation that the item is "one third of a whole" is consistent with both names, whereas the alternative (that it's numbering the umbilical cords) relies on both the US and the UK/EU names being wrong in different ways. The former seems more plausible to me.

 

[Durden77]

I've read through the first couple of pages in this thread, and I'm still confused lol. I think I have a pretty good grasp on "The Great Ones" and such like that, but I still just don't understand the whole dream concept and the reawakening one. Like, when you're out in Yarhnam, is THAT a dream? Or is the Hunter's Dream a dream? Is any of it a dream? Is any of it real? MY MIND!!

 

[Veritigo_X]

It's implied that workshop is tied to Gehrman, and his dream/experience as the first hunter. The bone seems tied to one of Gehrmans apprentices, and his style of fighting ("quickening"). Based on what we know Ludwig came after, used different tools, had a different style, and probably worked from further within the church. Hard to say, though.

The 90 page document is great, truly, but I disagree with a couple of his conclusions (which is okay!) so don't take it as fact. That said, I agree with the author's hypothesis that Ludwig went mad on an expedition into the Labyrinth, and that he had the old hunter workshop sealed after church hunters took over managing the Hunt.

For some reason I was attributing the Old Hunter's Bone to Ludwig, but reading the description again it belonged to a nameless apprentice to Gehrman who was one of the practitioners of quickening, practiced by the first hunters. Ludwig was the first hunter of the church. So completely different camps of hunters.

 

[pantsmith]

Speaking on paleblood, it just occur to me the opening scene with the blood minister, his dialogue started with "oh yes...paleblood.... well you came to the right place."

It seems to me the player knew about paleblood all this while which is why the player came to yharnam in the first place.

To me, paleblood is a simple way of saying "blood not of this realm", which is a stand in and metaphor for a whole host of things; aliens, gods, great ones and anything else beyond mortal comprehension. I think it's purposefully vague, and meant to be used as an extreme form of a term like blue blood, denoting purity and elevated caste/class but on a cosmic/evolutionary scale.

The short is that people don't want to give into their beastial, earthly nature and instead want to evolve or at least aspire to something greater. You'll notice the creatures with paleblood are way more alien looking, and even the Church/Choir moves away from the standard blood everyone else is imbibing in and gets their from Ebrietas. The bulb-headed alien enemies seem much closer to their gained insight than, say, a mindless hunter in the streets.

I have no idea what to make of the blood minister, but I'm sure his definition of paleblood is just as vague as our understanding of it. The Scholars, The Choir, The Vilebloods, The Hunters and the average Yharnamite would all likely give you a different answer.

 

[Hystzen]

I need something on Iosefka and her imposter, man >_<

I don't think there's enough solid evidence in the game, but even a convincing theory would be enough for me.

How does the imposter know so much and have Willem's cord, and what is the importance of the real Iosefka, for her blood to be in the Nightmare?

I guess a simple "she's an special blood saint of the Choir" would be enough for the real Iosefka, but the imposter, she's possibly from Cainhurst (makes Numbing Mist and could be related to Annalise and Arianna, since she also gets a baby stand), dresses as the Choir and even use their tools, which could be easily explained by her just taking it from Iosefka, but also makes more Celestial dudes, which is Upper Cathedral knowledge.

How/why does she know so much? Could the removal of Willem's cord be what left him in that state?

About translations, I was thinking about that yesterday, about what if the Third Umbilical Cord is actually the correct one, instead of One Third of Umbilical Cord? The Lecture Building note says "Three third cords", after all, and it seems quite silly to me that no one before you would have the brilliant idea of making one entire thing using three thirds of thing. If it's just a "Third cord", instead of "One third of a cord", then using three of them to be able to transcend the hunt could be harder to figure out.

And Hunt the Great Ones. Hunt the Great Ones, that note still makes no sense to me.

The interesting thing about Iosefka is finding a blood vial of hers in a chest before Mergo Wet Nurse. The imposter might come from the nightmare first then to upper ward then eventually to the clinic

 

[Mermandala]

To me, paleblood is a simple way of saying "blood not of this realm", which is a stand in and metaphor for a whole host of things; aliens, gods, great ones and anything else beyond mortal comprehension. I think it's purposefully vague, and meant to be used as an extreme form of a term like blue blood, denoting purity and elevated caste/class but on a cosmic/evolutionary scale.

The short is that people don't want to give into their beastial, earthly nature and instead want to evolve or at least aspire to something greater. You'll notice the creatures with paleblood are way more alien looking, and even the Church/Choir moves away from the standard blood everyone else is imbibing in and gets their from Ebrietas. The bulb-headed alien enemies seem much closer to their gained insight than, say, a mindless hunter in the streets.

I have no idea what to make of the blood minister, but I'm sure his definition of paleblood is just as vague as our understanding of it. The Scholars, The Choir, The Vilebloods, The Hunters and the average Yharnamite would all likely give you a different answer.

One of the meanings for Paleblood I keep kicking around is that it indicates a cosmic parasite in the host. Hunters all have it for instance and this allows them to become stronger by feeding it blood echoes. In reality the parasite is the one leveling up.

Microscopic in the blood stream is pretty close to invisible before we were able to put enough "eyes" inside our microscopes. All of the trouble starting with finding these "mediums" in the Labyrinth. They are infected I think.

Transcend the Hunt and finally give birth to the new Great One. I still can't jive all the cords business though except to point out that terrestrial parasites have some very bizarre reproduction cycles that take place across several species in a seemingly impossible Rube Goldberg machine. Here is a random pic of an indirect life cycle that features a snail (kin slug stand-in). The Bird is a Hunter maybe?

There is something to say about drinking Soma (Moon) and some Vedic things but it keeps spiraling out of control when I think about it.

 

[Edzi]

I think the main thing I'm still struggling with is The Hunt, and the motivations behind it. Reading through the lore discussion has connected a lot of dots, but this is still sort of unclear to me. What's the point of the/your current hunt? Why are you being guided to do what you do in the game? What exactly are the motivations of the Moon Presence?

Has anyone read the 90 page thesis on the story lore that was posted on reddit yesterday? It's well put together, and is worth checking out.

http://www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/comments/33v7pq/lorethe_paleblood_hunt_an_indepth_90_page/

Going through this right now. He's too eager to make the perfect connections rather than just acceptable ones, but this is a pretty good read otherwise.

Just finished reading it, and I agree. He definitely stretches in some parts, but he also makes a ton of really good connections. Absolutely worth the read.

I've read through the first couple of pages in this thread, and I'm still confused lol. I think I have a pretty good grasp on "The Great Ones" and such like that, but I still just don't understand the whole dream concept and the reawakening one. Like, when you're out in Yarhnam, is THAT a dream? Or is the Hunter's Dream a dream? Is any of it a dream? Is any of it real? MY MIND!!

The way I see it, Yharman is real. The Hunter's Dream and the Nightmares are the alternate dimension/"dream" areas. The fact that other NPC hunters in the game (like Djura and Eileen) seem to have been in the MC's shoes at some point (having been part of the Hunter's Dream cycle) implies to me that they've essentially gone through their own hunt as the Moon Presence's weirdly immortal hunter (whatever that means, since I'm still unsure what the point of it is), and at the end they probably chose Gherman's mercy killing and woke up again in Yharnam after the hunt, no longer tied to the dream (so they can actually die now).

 

[The Xtortionist]

Just finished reading it, and I agree. He definitely stretches in some parts, but he also makes a ton of really good connections. Absolutely worth the read.

I think the main thing I'm still struggling with is The Hunt, and the motivations behind it. Reading through that 90 page analysis connected a lot of dots, but this is still sort of unclear to me. What's the point of the/your current hunt? Why are you being guided to do what you do in the game? What exactly are the motivations of the Moon Presence?



The way I see it, Yharman is real. The Hunter's Dream and the Nightmares are the alternate dimension/"dream" areas. The fact that other NPC hunters in the game (like Djura and Eileen) seem to have been in the MC's shoes at some point (having been part of the Hunter's Dream cycle) implies to me that they've essentially gone through their own hunt as the Moon Presence's weirdly immortal hunter (whatever that means, since I'm still unsure what the point of it is), and at the end they probably chose Gherman's mercy killing and woke up again in Yharnam after the hunt, no longer tied to the dream (so they can actually die now).

Wouldn't Eileen and Djura forget the dream if they submitted to Gehrman? I thought you wake up as an amnesiac.

 

[Edzi]

Wouldn't Eileen and Djura forget the dream if they submitted to Gehrman? I thought you wake up as an amnesiac.

Sometimes you forget dreams after waking up and sometimes you remember them, so maybe the Hunter's dream is similar? I don't see it as too much of a stretch that those two might have some memories regarding their hunt. Or maybe Gehrman telling you you'll forget the dream is more metaphorical, and he means that you will no longer be tied to it so you can forget about it if you want? I dunno.

I suppose another way of explaining Djura and Eileens knowledge of Gehrman, the dream, and the Doll might have something to do with both of them being older characters who might have known Gehrman in his workshop days. But didn't Djura say something to the effect of not dreaming *anymore*?

 

[ElFly]

It's interesting to note that in japan, keeping your umbilical cord is something of a tradition, but I haven't seen anything of note that could relate it to the moon or something.

 

[Mermandala]

It's interesting to note that in japan, keeping your umbilical cord is something of a tradition, but I haven't seen anything of note that could relate it to the moon or something.

That is super interesting all the same. Just looking it up now there also seems to be a tradition of keeping it within a doll in a closed and special box.

 

[aradikus]

It's interesting to note that in japan, keeping your umbilical cord is something of a tradition, but I haven't seen anything of note that could relate it to the moon or something.

This idea was used in Silent Hill 4: The Room as well.

 

[Hawkie]

It's interesting to note that in japan, keeping your umbilical cord is something of a tradition, but I haven't seen anything of note that could relate it to the moon or something.

My mum still has mine and those of my other siblings stored away (with the pegs). Was quite a common thing in N.Ireland in the 70's.

 

[Kurtofan]

I wonder if the executioners work for the school of mensis? They seem to guard the entrance to yarhar Gul. Or they might just work for the healing church in general, you see them near the hemwick crossing that leads to cainhurst, meaning that they'd execute any vileblood coming in or trying to get in.

My other idea would that they're here to keep the yahar gul people inside, like those snipers facing the doors. but that's weird considering the two yahargul hunters above them.

 

[ElFly]

My mum still has mine and those of my other siblings stored away (with the pegs). Was quite a common thing in N.Ireland in the 70's.

Please don't eat it in a misguided journey for enlightenment. Also don't beat on guys on wheelchairs.

 

[Gbraga]

Please don't eat it in a misguided journey for enlightenment. Also don't beat on guys on wheelchairs.

But if you do, tell us if it worked.

 

[OniBarubary]

Playing NG+ again, and...this can't be on purpose lore...and I hate to mention it, but with all the impregnating and other stuff in the game...

...it can't be by coincidence that Rom's head looks like a penis, right? And I don't mean sorta kinda, it looks like a fucking penis. From her mouth location to head shape to everything.

To get some relevant lore discussion going, I assume that the bridge that overlooks the lake is where the Lecture Building used to be, right?

 

[Toxi]

To get some relevant lore discussion going, I assume that the bridge that overlooks the lake is where the Lecture Building used to be, right?

I was thinking so, but the Lunarium Key description seems to disagree.

"Key to the lunarium facing the lake on the second floor of Byrgenwerth College.

In his final years, Master Willem was fond of the lookout, and the rocking chair that he kept there for meditation. In the end, it is said, he left his secret with the lake."

Then again, the description also seems to think Master Willem was dead, which he obviously wasn't.

 

[OniBarubary]

Alright well...that being said, I have no idea where the Lecture Building was supposed to be. There's no like...place where it would make sense.

 

[Mermandala]

Alright well...that being said, I have no idea where the Lecture Building was supposed to be. There's no like...place where it would make sense.

I had a lecture building like that in college... never could find the place.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Ludwig is definitely the Artorias-equivalent of this game. And the crazy thing is he is on parity with Gherman in terms of how important he is to botht he hunt and history of the world, and we never find out what happened to him!

Is he?

He's one of the original Hunter I suppose, and he recruited normal folks to join the Hunt, and he's the first of the Healing Church Hunters, but that's about it, right?

Doesn't really strike me as "important", at least not at the same level as Gherman, what's with his past as part of the Byrgenwyth scholars along with Laurence that found Yharnam in the Chalice Dungeons and was chosen (forced?) by the Moon Presence to host the Hunter's Dream, as well as being officially called as the First Hunter.

You know what I'm actually wondering about? Caryll. His runes are an integral part of the gameplay and one can safely assume that he has close connection to the Great Ones (even multiple of them perhaps!) due to how they work and yet we know fuck all about him, even less than what we know about Ludwig (only that Willem would be proud of him and that he's a Byrgenwyth scholar but nothing more.)

 

[Revengineer]

I was thinking so, but the Lunarium Key description seems to disagree.

"Key to the lunarium facing the lake on the second floor of Byrgenwerth College.

In his final years, Master Willem was fond of the lookout, and the rocking chair that he kept there for meditation. In the end, it is said, he left his secret with the lake."

Then again, the description also seems to think Master Willem was dead, which he obviously wasn't.

How do we know the Willem we "meet" is not some manipulation by Rom? (I have not gone back to WIllem after Rom and have always killed WIllem just before Rom on my subsequent plays)

 

[Alebrije]

Alright well...that being said, I have no idea where the Lecture Building was supposed to be. There's no like...place where it would make sense.

I guess it is under Byrgenwerth , yuo can see a blocked entrance inside the building 1st floor that goes under it but you can not open. this kind if entrance is similar in the lecture building (dream) when you go down to find Patches the spider. Both entrances/gates are similar on shape and form.

also the lecture building has no windows so it supports the idea that could be underground

 

[OniBarubary]

You know what I'm actually wondering about? Caryll. His runes are an integral part of the gameplay and one can safely assume that he has close connection to the Great Ones (even multiple of them perhaps!) due to how they work and yet we know fuck all about him, even less than what we know about Ludwig (only that Willem would be proud of him and that he's a Byrgenwyth scholar but nothing more.)

Yeah. Dude seems to be fucking ridiculously impressive because he managed to transpose the words of the Great Ones and found a way to imprint their meaning into people WITHOUT THE USE OF BLOOD. That's huge. Maybe that's why the witches tortured him to death, trying to find out his seeeeecreeeeeets.

I guess it is under Byrgenwerth , yuo can see a blocked entrance inside the building 1st floor that goes under it but you can not open. this kind if entrance is similar in the lecture building (dream) when you go down to find Patches the spider. Both entrances/gates are similar on shape and form.

Man, my college was built in a fairly nonsensical way but at least we didn't have to take ladders to get to class.

 

[FF Seraphim]

Is he?

He's one of the original Hunter I suppose, and he recruited normal folks to join the Hunt, and he's the first of the Healing Church Hunters, but that's about it, right?

Doesn't really strike me as "important", at least not at the same level as Gherman, what's with his past as part of the Byrgenwyth scholars along with Laurence that found Yharnam in the Chalice Dungeons and was chosen (forced?) by the Moon Presence to host the Hunter's Dream, as well as being officially called as the First Hunter.

You know what I'm actually wondering about? Caryll. His runes are an integral part of the gameplay and one can safely assume that he has close connection to the Great Ones (even multiple of them perhaps!) due to how they work and yet we know fuck all about him, even less than what we know about Ludwig (only that Willem would be proud of him and that he's a Byrgenwyth scholar but nothing more.)

I say Ludwig is important due to the fact he was one of the first Church Hunters who knew they had to fight "abnormal" beasts, i.e. ones not from human origin.

As for Caryll, he is crazy important. All his runes do not require blood to work. How he did that is never explained but if you read the Rune Workshop Tool description:

"Runesmith Caryll, student of Byrgenwerth, transcribed the inhuman utterings of the Great Ones into what are now called Caryll Runes.

The hunter Who retrieves this workshop tool can etch Caryll Runes into the mind to attain their wondrous
strength.

Provost Willem would have been proud of Caryll's runes, as they do not rely upon blood in any measure."

Caryll is able to understand the Great Ones and transcribe their power without having to transmit any blood.

 

[Karsticles]

I was thinking so, but the Lunarium Key description seems to disagree.

"Key to the lunarium facing the lake on the second floor of Byrgenwerth College.

In his final years, Master Willem was fond of the lookout, and the rocking chair that he kept there for meditation. In the end, it is said, he left his secret with the lake."

Then again, the description also seems to think Master Willem was dead, which he obviously wasn't.

Maybe Willem is dead. Maybe that is his spirit, much like we see Queen Yharnam a few times.

Are we certain the Hunter at Byrgenwerth is with the church?

 

[Dr.Parity]

My mum still has mine and those of my other siblings stored away (with the pegs). Was quite a common thing in N.Ireland in the 70's.

Time to get the secret ending to the game called life.

You know what to do.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Yeah. Dude seems to be fucking ridiculously impressive because he managed to transpose the words of the Great Ones and found a way to imprint their meaning into people WITHOUT THE USE OF BLOOD. That's huge. Maybe that's why the witches tortured him to death, trying to find out his seeeeecreeeeeets.



Man, my college was built in a fairly nonsensical way but at least we didn't have to take ladders to get to class.

I say Ludwig is important due to the fact he was one of the first Church Hunters who knew they had to fight "abnormal" beasts, i.e. ones not from human origin.

As for Caryll, he is crazy important. All his runes do not require blood to work. How he did that is never explained but if you read the Rune Workshop Tool description:



Caryll is able to understand the Great Ones and transcribe their power without having to transmit any blood.

Indeed! I mean, the dude managed to achieve something that EVERYONE in the game was hoping to achieve--that is, communication with the Great Ones--without the use of blood! Transfusing blood is something everyone and their mothers (well, the important ones anyway) know as the exact reason behind all the plague and diseases and disasters that befell Yharnam, and this dude managed to hop around that!

And we know fuck all about him! Hahaha.

 

[Toxi]

Maybe Willem is dead. Maybe that is his spirit, much like we see Queen Yharnam a few times.

Are we certain the Hunter at Byrgenwerth is with the church?

She wears the Choir garb, summons Ebrietas, and IIRC the guide's name for her suggests she's part of the Choir.

 

[Zocano]

He's one of the original Hunter I suppose, and he recruited normal folks to join the Hunt, and he's the first of the Healing Church Hunters, but that's about it, right?

Doesn't really strike me as "important", at least not at the same level as Gherman, what's with his past as part of the Byrgenwyth scholars along with Laurence that found Yharnam in the Chalice Dungeons and was chosen (forced?) by the Moon Presence to host the Hunter's Dream, as well as being officially called as the First Hunter.

I'm with you on this one. Ludwig, while the first church hunter, didn't strike me as incredibly important and I felt we saw all we needed of him. I'm of the opinion that the Cleric Beast *is* Ludwig and the Chief Hunter Emblem and Sword Hunter badge hint as much to me.

Caryll is definitely important like you brought up.

As far as learning about other hunters/NPCs in a DLC-esque manner like Artorias, Aldia, and Vendrick?

Caryll is up there yah, but I want to know more about Gehrman's apprentice. If there are people that want to make Artorias-like comparisons it would be that person. We learn just as much about him as we did Artorias and he was just as important in the base game of Dark Souls as this guy was, I take it.

I'd like to see this master of Quickening.

 

[OniBarubary]

Yeah, I'd say it's pretty much a lock that she's from the Choir and is guarding him.

What's funny is that I've never been able to get it on subsequent playthroughs but the very first time I played the game I caught her standing in front of the chest and she never moved before I VA'd her and killed her. Maybe she was a student there at one time.

 

[Zocano]

She wears the Choir garb, summons Ebrietas, and IIRC the guide's name for her suggests she's part of the Choir.

Her name is "Yurie, The Last Scholar"

So yah. Definitely Choir.

edit: remembered the title wrong but fixed it, woops.

 

[Karsticles]

She wears the Choir garb, summons Ebrietas, and IIRC the guide's name for her suggests she's part of the Choir.

Ah, thanks.

 

[Toxi]

I'm with you on this one. Ludwig, while the first church hunter, didn't strike me as incredibly important and I felt we saw all we needed of him. I'm of the opinion that the Cleric Beast *is* Ludwig and the Chief Hunter Emblem and Sword Hunter badge hint as much to me.

There is nothing to indicate the Sword Hunter Badge belonged to a Ludwig and not one of the many clerics that came after him. Same with the Hunter Chief's Emblem; Ludwig was hardly the only person to lead the Church Hunters. The Emblem is also an item you buy instead of something you get directly from the Cleric Beast.

Besides, there's a much better candidate for Ludwig than the Cleric Beast: The Forgotten Madman in the chalice dungeons. He uses Ludwig's Holy Sword and Rifle and wears a variant of the Tomb Prospector set. Just makes more sense to me.

 

[FF Seraphim]

I'm with you on this one. Ludwig, while the first church hunter, didn't strike me as incredibly important and I felt we saw all we needed of him. I'm of the opinion that the Cleric Beast *is* Ludwig and the Chief Hunter Emblem and Sword Hunter badge hint as much to me.

Caryll is definitely important like you brought up.

As far as learning about other hunters/NPCs in a DLC-esque manner like Artorias, Aldia, and Vendrick?

Caryll is up there yah, but I want to know more about Gehrman's apprentice. If there are people that want to make Artorias-like comparisons it would be that person. We learn just as much about him as we did Artorias and he was just as important in the base game of Dark Souls as this guy was, I take it.

I'd like to see this master of Quickening.

I do not know how Caryll DLC would go down... something tells me he wasn't much of a fighter. Hell I would like to see Irreverent Izzy, Ludwig, and Caryll in some sort of DLC form though!
I do not think Ludwig was the cleric beast since the sword badge doesn't unlock his weapons just the Kirkhammer and the repeating pistol. But the Forgotten Madman in the Chalice may be him since they use both...

 

[StaffyManasse]

But if you do, tell us if it worked.

If it does work, would Hawkie just seem like a rambling madman to us because we lack the insight to see?

 

[hwateber]

Goddamn, I totally forgot that Caryll was a person

 

[OniBarubary]

I do not know how Caryll DLC would go down... something tells me he wasn't much of a fighter. Hell I would like to see Irreverent Izzy, Ludwig, and Caryll in some sort of DLC form though!

Problem is that most of them are dead.

 

[FF Seraphim]

Problem is that most of them are dead.

A new Nightmare maybe? They can make it work somehow!