Support NeoGAF

[Ristlager]

Thanks!

 

[Mermandala]

Does anyone have a clear image of the Altar of Despair? There are some kind of pods or puff things growing around the carcass that I can't remember how similar they were to the pods above but wasn't there also some fungus/tentacle things on the body itself? How similar are they to the ones growing from Master Willem? The messengers sometimes look like a patch of some kind of growth as well, but living.

The location of the Altar far below the Cathedral reminds me of cultures building on top of much older religious sites and so the altar could be of Pthumerian origin.

 

[Gbraga]

Isnt the stone description related to the possible embrion that is inside the stone?

It does say "but her horrific consciousness is only asleep".

Though I guess her counsciousness being Mergo would explain why she's grateful after you kill the Wet Nurse (which, I assume, also causes Mergo's death), she's finally free.

But then the whole time travel shenanigan should probably have an effect in the Wet Nurse boss fight if you do it while having the Yharnam Stone with you, kinda like the alternate cutscene from Sif if you do the DLC before him.

 

[Ferr986]

It does say "but her horrific consciousness is only asleep".

Though I guess her counsciousness being Mergo would explain why she's grateful after you kill the Wet Nurse (which, I assume, also causes Mergo's death), she's finally free.

But then the whole time travel shenanigan should probably have an effect in the Wet Nurse boss fight if you do it while having the Yharnam Stone with you, kinda like the alternate cutscene from Sif if you do the DLC before him.

Yeah I always though the Chalice Yharnam is more about Mergo. I mean, she's not agresive in Mensis and is glad that you kill him, yet in Chalice she rushes to kill you.

The last part, well I have the unpopular opinion that they didn't think about that or didn't care that much..

EDIT: Also, can we consider it time travel? or is more about being different Mergos? The Great Ones keep resurrecting him or something..

I dunno, Mergo is so weird in this game...

 

[krimsoncharge]

Just completed the game but didnt understand much of the story and after a while everything went over my head. Is there a summary or yt video explaining the events of the game ?

 

[Edzi]

Like many other things in Bloodborne, you can interpret the evidence in a multitude of ways. There's no hard answer.

I get that the lore can be interpreted in a lot of different ways, but I can't help feeling like the theory that Ebrietas was human and not a true Great One is just stretching. Most of the reasoning doesn't seem like it's directly supported by the game, while the idea that she's a legitimate Great One does seem to be supported by in-game lore.

Let's go off of the assumption that the Moon Presence and Mergo's Wet Nurse are "True" Great ones.* What does that mean? I'm not really sure, but the common interpretation is that they are "natural" Great Ones who were never human. Let's look at some of the things that have in common:

- "Nightmare Slain" when they die
- Each associated with a dream world
- Each closely associated with an umbilical cord third**
- The player is not given their true names. Keep in mind that the boss names in Bloodborne seem to be "word of God" (e.g. the player never hears "Vicar Amelia", but they know her name. Same goes for the Shadows of Yharnam, etc.). Even the descriptions of the nameless-bosses seem to be "word of God" (e.g. I, for one, wouldn't have labeled the creepy invisible reaper as a "Wet Nurse"), so it's REALLY unusual that they aren't given names.***
- Neither is a Chalice dungeon boss: their battles are unique.

None of these things are true for Ebrietas. So the question becomes: why is she different? Why was she "left behind"? Who was she left behind by? Why is she ALSO present as a Chalice dungeon boss? The same question goes for Rom.

Ebrietas means "drunkenness" in Latin. The only other reference to alcohol is in the Pungent Blood Cocktail, which describes blood as "intoxicating". Ebrietas also vomits blood as one of her primary attacks. Ebrietas is closely associated with the labyrinth. Could Ebrietas have once consumed a great deal of blood, much like the Pthumerians? Could that have been related to a possible evolution from a Pthumerian to a Great One? It seems possible.

* Oedon is a bit of an odd duck here, as usual. He/she is closely associated with an umbilical cord fragment, and it isn't clear whether Oedon is the creature's true name or a name given by the Church to the mysterious incorporeal force that lies within the blood. And, of course, Oedon doesn't get explicitly associated with a dream world or deliver the player a death message. Nonetheless, the "formless" nature (not just invisible, but without ANY physical embodiment. Oedon is a concept with a motivation. Isn't that creepy?) seems to be about as far as you can get from the more "grounded" Great Ones.

** Rom also fits all of these bullet points except for this one. She is one degree away from Master Willem, who has his own umbilical cord. This cord has references to Master Willem's dreams of evolution but none to Rom herself, unlike the cords of the other Great Ones. I'd be inclined to say that Willem's cord is of a different sort of origin than the other three cords.

*** Aside: Miyazaki said in the guide interview that he puts a great deal of care into each name he puts into the game. Take that as you will.

Of all the things you listed as support, the two that I find most compelling are pointing out that the Great Ones that exist in Dream Worlds and give the "Nightmare Slain" message might be special, but even then I think it's far easier to explain that by saying it was because those two Great Ones just happened to be tied to Nightmares/Dreams. It doesn't necessarily mean anything more than that, and the game doesn't really give us many reasons to think that a true Great One needs to be associated with a Dream/Nightmare.

I also think you're stretching with the idea that not having a true name in the game somehow makes them special/true Great Ones. You mentioned Oedon and sort of dismissed him by saying his name could just be given by the Church members, but can't that also be said of Ebrietas? She was the primary Great One that the church dealt with, so it would make sense for them to name her, while the Wet Nurse and the MP probably never dealt directly with members of the Church.

 

[OniBarubary]

I think the Chalice and Yharnam boss in it are just neat little things like EX dungeons in Star Ocean; not canon, just things that developers decided to throw you a bone with. After all Yharnam is pregnant in it when during the game she obviously had her kid so I don't take that much in depth and just at face value. The developers just wanted a fun secret boss treat fight.

 

[Gbraga]

Yeah I always though the Chalice Yharnam is more about Mergo. I mean, she's not agresive in Mensis and is glad that you kill him, yet in Chalice she rushes to kill you.

The last part, well I have the unpopular opinion that they didn't think about that or didn't care that much..

EDIT: Also, can we consider it time travel? or is more about being different Mergos? The Great Ones keep resurrecting him or something..

I dunno, Mergo is so weird in this game...

It's the chalices, man, it's never 100% clear what their place is in the timeline when you're doing them.

Their lore significance is clear, but I'm not sure if I should just disregard every event that happens there as just videogames being videogames or if we're actually exploring them in real time, which would make absolutely no sense with the kind of bullshit we encounter there.

It definitely felt like the procedural thing came first and then they tried to tie them with the lore, so it wasn't "videogamey", which always leads to it being even worse than it would be if it had no meaning at all.

I was actually expecting chalices to be 100% videogamey, in fact, I was hoping for Souls series DLC bosses for the chalices, it would be so nice to fight O&S in this game, I'd pay some nice money for this.

 

[OniBarubary]

Alright, stealing more information from Reddit here.

The weird mystery creature is in this Central Pthumeru Root Chalice with Fetid Offering enabled:

r637xabe

More pics

After playing with it people found it can spew acid on you, it can grab you and induce frenzy (and death), it swipes it's tentacles around and (so far) all it drops are blood vials. Perhaps more disturbing is that if you circle around it, it's head pops out on the other side of it's body. Confirmed that it's fully immune to lightning damage.

What a weird fucking secret.

 

[theSlacker]

Djura is an ex-hunter who accepted the death at the tree. Basically he woke up after the night of the hunt. It's hardly a good ending.

If that's the case then how does Djura and Elieen know of the Hunter's Dream? Elieen especially points at the doll.

I don't believe that the other old hunters you can find in the game are ones that "accepted death". I think they have just had other various circumstances causing them to no longer be able to "dream".

chalice dungeons would be super fun if it was easy to grab a coop partner and run through them without losing them at the end of every floor

No they wouldn't. Walking though a pile of shit isn't any less shitty with a friend.

 

[Adaren]

I get that the lore can be interpreted in a lot of different ways, but I can't help feeling like the theory that Ebrietas was human and not a true Great One is just stretching. Most of the reasoning doesn't seem like it's directly supported by the game, while the idea that she's a legitimate Great One does seem to be supported by in-game lore.

Of all those reasons, the two that I find most compelling are the Great Ones that give the "Nightmare Slain" message, but even then I think it's far easier to explain that by saying it was because those two Great Ones just happened to be tied to Nightmares/Dreams. It doesn't necessarily mean anything more than that.

I also think you're stretching with the idea that not having a true name in the game somehow makes them special/true Great Ones. You mentioned Oedon and sort of dismissed him by saying his name could just be given by the Church members, but can't that also be said of Ebrietas? She was the primary Great One that the church dealt with, so it would make sense for them to name her, while the Wet Nurse and the MP probably never dealt directly with members of the Church.

This might be an issue of semantics. I also think Ebrietas is a Great One, but I think she (and Rom as well) are remarkably different than Moon Presence/MWN. I think her differences suggest that she might be ascended from a human.

To me, the most compelling piece of evidence is the names. Even before I read that Miyazaki put a great deal of effort into each name, I thought it was weird that MWN and MP are referred to only by descriptions. You're right that Oedon kind of throws a wrench in everything, but he/she/it also seems to be in a class of its own in even as far as Great Ones are concerned.

 

[Gbraga]

Alright, stealing more information from Reddit here.

The weird mystery creature is in this Central Pthumeru Root Chalice with Fetid Offering enabled:

r637xabe

More pics

After playing with it people found it can spew acid on you, it can grab you and induce frenzy (and death), it swipes it's tentacles around and (so far) all it drops are blood vials. Perhaps more disturbing is that if you circle around it, it's head pops out on the other side of it's body. Confirmed that it's fully immune to lightning damage.

What a weird fucking secret.

This is so, so cool. I have no idea of what that is, but it's nice to actually have a secret in this game. One even the people behind the official guide didn't pick up on.

This might be an issue of semantics. I also think Ebrietas is a Great One, but I think she (and Rom as well) are remarkably different than Moon Presence/MWN. I think her differences suggest that she might be ascended from a human.

To me, the most compelling piece of evidence is the names. Even before I read that Miyazaki put a great deal of effort into each name, I thought it was weird that MWN and MP are referred to only by descriptions. You're right that Oedon kind of throws a wrench in everything, but he/she/it also seems to be in a class of its own in even as far as Great Ones are concerned.

I don't know. They make it very explicit (by Soulsborne standards, of course, which is not explicit at all) that Rom and the Celestial Emissary (which also isn't really a name ) aren't "legit" Great Ones, but all we have on Ebrietas for that is that she has a name and a title...

Is Amygdala also a human, then? I also see no evidence torwards that.

 

[Edzi]

This might be an issue of semantics. I also think Ebrietas is a Great One, but I think she (and Rom as well) are remarkably different than Moon Presence/MWN. I think her differences suggest that she might be ascended from a human.

To me, the most compelling piece of evidence is the names. Even before I read that Miyazaki put a great deal of effort into each name, I thought it was weird that MWN and MP are referred to only by descriptions. You're right that Oedon kind of throws a wrench in everything, but he/she/it also seems to be in a class of its own in even as far as Great Ones are concerned.

No, I get where you're coming from, I just don't think the theory that she evolved from a human is really supported. I consider most Great Ones in the game to come from space/the Cosmos.

I agree that the Great Ones don't all seem to be the same rank (though I don't think the concept of rank really applies to them), but I still maintain that most of them in the game are cosmic entitites that, for whatever reason, decided to come down and communicate with men. I think some people might be trying too hard to categorize or differentiate the Great Ones when that might not really be necessary at all.

As far as the names go, I agree that they're important, but like I mentioned in my last post, the Oedon naming situation could be used to explain Ebrietas as well if you want to go that route.

 

[Adaren]

Is Amygdala also a human, then? I also see no evidence torwards that.

I don't either; I'm not really sure what Amygdala is, but it doesn't seem to really fit in either category. I'm inclined to just call it (them?) some sort of alien nightmare Great One for now, probably not ascended from a human but not on the same "otherworldly" level as those who are associated with the umbilical cords.

 

[Gbraga]

I don't either; I'm not really sure what Amygdala is, but it doesn't seem to really fit in either category. I'm inclined to just call it (them?) some sort of alien nightmare Great One for now, probably not ascended from a human but not on the same "otherworldly" level as those who are associated with the umbilical cords.

Oh, but I do agree that there's probably some ranking among them, I don't think they're all on the same level, I just don't think there are more of them who ascended (at least from humans, who knows about other alien species) aside from Rom and the Emissary.

 

[Skii]

Even though it would be cool to see the Yharnam Stone having actual in-game significance, I'd really be against that choice.

Truth is, Chalice Dungeons are boring as shit. I don't wanna have to go all the way through the mandatory dungeons to beat Yharnam with every single character I want to play the DLC with, that would be such a major pain in the ass that I would never play the DLC more than once, to be quite honest.

Would also mess up the All Bosses Speedruns, and word on the street is that From really like the speedrunning community of their games, no one wins from this decision, it would be so stupid.

Yharnam Stone might allow you to do something special in the DLC but I guarantee it won't be used to start it.

 

[Gbraga]

Yharnam Stone might allow you to do something special in the DLC but I guarantee it won't be used to start it.

That'd be cool.

 

[Adaren]

I just realized that the descriptions referencing "left behind Great Ones" is plural.

So, ignoring the question of who's doing the leaving, who got left behind? Ebrietas and Rom? Altar-Rom? Chalice Ebrietas? Could it be Amygdala as well?

Material used in a Holy Chalice rite.

Of the all the strange lifeforms that reside in the nooks and crannies of the old labyrinth, the slugs are clear signs of the left-behind Great Ones.

"A secret symbol left by Caryll, runesmith of Byrgenwerth.

A transcription of "Eye," as spoken by left-behind Great Ones. Allows one to make additional discoveries.

Eyes symbolize the truth Master Willem sought in his research. Disillusioned by the limits of human intellect.
Master Willem looked to beings from higher planes for guidance, and sought to line his brain with eyes in order to elevate his thoughts."

 

[Veritigo_X]

A friend of mine brought up a theory that the celestial emissaries (and the larger Great One) before the Ebrietas were members of the Choir. I don't know if there's anything to support this outside of their location but I thought it was a neat idea.

 

[Gbraga]

A friend of mine brought up a theory that the celestial emissaries (and the larger Great One) before the Ebrietas were members of the Choir. I don't know if there's anything to support this outside of their location but I thought it was a neat idea.

Aren't they orphans, experimented on by the Choir?

 

[Yurt]

I doubt we are getting DLC any time soon if ever

but if we do, I hope it isn't more Chalice dungeons or ancient ruins like the Nightmare Frontier. Gimme something like Cainhurst baby!

So someone found an enemy in the chalices that isn't in the guide and I (and many others) have personally never seen before and people are speculating that it's a live version of the invertebrates from the spell items. Once you kill it it poofs away forever, apparently.

Big pic, so I'm just straight-linking it.

http://bloodborne.wiki.fextralife.com/file/view/Bloodborne+-+slug.png/547482074/Bloodborne%20-%20slug.png

Edit: And apparently it's immune to lightning damage? That's weird. That's the only immunity in the game I'm aware of.

yeaah I ran into it once!

 

[OniBarubary]

Aren't they orphans, experimented on by the Choir?

Pretty sure that's correct. There's a line in an item description about it somewhere.

yeaah I ran into it once!

LOL And you didn't tell us?

 

[Adaren]

Aren't they orphans, experimented on by the Choir?

Relevant item description:

Key to the Orphanage, birthplace of the Choir.
The Orphanage, shadowed by the Grand Cathedral, was a place of scholarship and experimentation, where young orphans became potent unseen thinkers for the Healing Church.
The Choir, that would later split the Healing Church, was a creation of the Orphanage.

 

[Revengineer]

I doubt we are getting DLC any time soon if ever

but if we do, I hope it isn't more Chalice dungeons or ancient ruins like the Nightmare Frontier. Gimme something like Cainhurst baby!



yeaah I ran into it once!

Eugh that thing is fucking nasty. Do eyes pop out of those holes?

 

[Veritigo_X]

Aren't they orphans, experimented on by the Choir?

That makes more sense since we already have evidence of a member of the Choir experimenting on people to create these celestial emissaries. That doesn't seem like the type of experiment they'd perform on themselves. Where did the fact they are orphans come from?

Relevant item description:

Ah, thanks!

 

[PolishQ]

Has there been any discussion about the possibility that the nightmare itself is Mergo? Or that the offspring of the Great Ones take the form of nightmares/dreams?

Exhibit A: After killing Rom, you are instructed to seek the Nightmare Newborn. One way to interpret this is "seek the newborn within the nightmare". Another is "seek the newborn nightmare."

Exhibit B: One of the Third Cord item descriptions mentions "the pale moon, which ... conceived the hunter's dream." "Conceived" is an interesting choice of words here. What if it's meant to be taken literally, as in conception and birth?

 

[Yurt]

Pretty sure that's correct. There's a line in an item description about it somewhere.



LOL And you didn't tell us?

ahaha it didn't occur to me that it was that rare!

at first I thought it was simply just a pig with a prolapsed anus that took one too many visceral attacks

 

[Revengineer]

Has there been any discussion about the possibility that the nightmare itself is Mergo? Or that the offspring of the Great Ones take the form of nightmares/dreams?

Exhibit A: After killing Rom, you are instructed to seek the Nightmare Newborn. One way to interpret this is "seek the newborn within the nightmare". Another is "seek the newborn nightmare."

Exhibit B: One of the Third Cord item descriptions mentions "the pale moon, which ... conceived the hunter's dream." "Conceived" is an interesting choice of words here. What if it's meant to be taken literally, as in conception and birth?

Re: Ex A: I think it would say "seek the Nightmare newborn(e)" if it meant seeking a newly born(e)

Re: Ex B: Interesting. I wonder if the nightmare and dream are both things that are "birthed" from ... things? The pale moon - what is the pale moon? Is it truly a moon's phase, or is it a thing, a great one disguised?

 

[OniBarubary]

Has there been any discussion about the possibility that the nightmare itself is Mergo? Or that the offspring of the Great Ones take the form of nightmares/dreams?

Exhibit A: After killing Rom, you are instructed to seek the Nightmare Newborn. One way to interpret this is "seek the newborn within the nightmare". Another is "seek the newborn nightmare."

Exhibit B: One of the Third Cord item descriptions mentions "the pale moon, which ... conceived the hunter's dream." "Conceived" is an interesting choice of words here. What if it's meant to be taken literally, as in conception and birth?

Hrrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmmmm. Interesting. I think we'd need a little more to go off of but it's an interesting conceit.

The things backing this up are that since the Nightmare was a newborn it may have created a Wet Nurse as it's avatar and protector. So the Wet Nurse isn't a separate being per se but IS Mergo in it's form to defend itself.

That would make the Moon Presence similar in that it has an avatar that comes down to defend itself or something.

Hrm. Might need to think about that more.

 

[Moral Panic]

- The player is not given their true names. Keep in mind that the boss names in Bloodborne seem to be "word of God" (e.g. the player never hears "Vicar Amelia", but they know her name. Same goes for the Shadows of Yharnam, etc.). Even the descriptions of the nameless-bosses seem to be "word of God" (e.g. I, for one, wouldn't have labeled the creepy invisible reaper as a "Wet Nurse"), so it's REALLY unusual that they aren't given names.***

But then Ebrietas is given the title "Daughter of the Cosmos" which indicates her not being a former Pthumerian or human.

 

[Revengineer]

Hrrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmmmm. Interesting. I think we'd need a little more to go off of but it's an interesting conceit.

The things backing this up are that since the Nightmare was a newborn it may have created a Wet Nurse as it's avatar and protector. So the Wet Nurse isn't a separate being per se but IS Mergo in it's form to defend itself.

That would make the Moon Presence similar in that it has an avatar that comes down to defend itself or something.

Hrm. Might need to think about that more.

Then there are two malicious entities producing what are ostensibly the "good" and "evil" sides of the unconscious world's coin (dream/nightmare)? That is appropriately oppressive and hopeless for Bloodborne.

 

[OniBarubary]

Then there are two malicious entities producing what are ostensibly the "good" and "evil" sides of the unconscious world's coin (dream/nightmare)? That is appropriately oppressive and hopeless for Bloodborne.

What makes it super oppressive and hopeless is that I don't think they're good/evil. They're pretty much awful/awful. No matter who wins, everyone loses.

Which...really seems to be the moral of Bloodborne. What a claustrophobically depressing game.

 

[Mermandala]

What makes it super oppressive and hopeless is that I don't think they're good/evil. They're pretty much awful/awful. No matter who wins, everyone loses.

Which...really seems to be the moral of Bloodborne. What a claustrophobically depressing game.

Pram to wheelchair, cradle to grave, nothing but nightmares.

 

[Easy_D]

But then Ebrietas is given the title "Daughter of the Cosmos" which indicates her not being a former Pthumerian or human.

If Ebrietas is specifically named Daughter, couldn't that point to her being a successful birth of whichever god is associated with the cosmos?

 

[OniBarubary]

Pram to wheelchair, cradle to grave, nothing but nightmares.

Bloodborne is pretty much just a video game tie-in to Cradle 2 The Grave.

If Ebrietas is specifically named Daughter, doesn't that point to her being a successful birth of whichever god is associated with the cosmos?

...

Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow.

How did I never even think about that?

 

[Adaren]

But then Ebrietas is given the title "Daughter of the Cosmos" which indicates her not being a former Pthumerian or human.

Definitely possible, and it holds more weight if you assume that Miyazaki chose her name carefully. I take her title to be somewhat romantic: she was a human, but was "chosen" to be able to ascend all the way to Great-One-hood (not everyone cane, given Fake Iosefka's dialogue) and thus was titled to be the Daughter of the Cosmos. Alternatively, perhaps Kos(m) had something to do with her ascension. A more literal interpretation's definitely possible, though.

"Celestial Emissary" may suffer from a similar confusion. Were I only given its name, I'd think it to be an emissary from the stars, but I think most people think it to be the opposite.

If Ebrietas is specifically named Daughter, couldn't that point to her being a successful birth of whichever god is associated with the cosmos?

Good connection! I looked at that quote just 5 minutes ago, meant to incorporate it into my post, and completely forgot.

Every Great One loses its child, and then yearns for a surrogate.

 

[Edzi]

I just realized that the descriptions referencing "left behind Great Ones" is plural.

So, ignoring the question of who's doing the leaving, who got left behind? Ebrietas and Rom? Altar-Rom? Chalice Ebrietas? Could it be Amygdala as well?

Maybe most of the Great Ones we see in the game are "left behind"? They could be the ones who decided to stick around after the Pthumerians first contacted the Old Ones. I'm kinda fuzzy on the lore when it comes to the first contact though.

If Ebrietas is specifically named Daughter, doesn't that point to her being a successful birth of whichever god is associated with the cosmos?

I think this is taking the word 'daughter' too literally.

 

[Easy_D]

Maybe most of the Great Ones we see in the game are "left behind"? They could be the ones who decided to stick around after the Pthumerian's first contacted the Old Ones.



I think this is taking the word 'daughter' too literally.

Unless that's what they want you to think , what if this is the most clearly spelled out thing ever :lol

 

[Edzi]

Unless that's what they want you to think , what if this is the most clearly spelled out thing ever :lol

Heh, definitely possible I suppose.

 

[OniBarubary]

So I'm watching some random ENB videos because I'm waiting for my dinner to cook and he says something I don't think I ever heard before, that the word for "Hunter" in the runes of Great Ones is inscribed on your brain in the beginning of the game.

...where did the game imply that?

 

[I-hate-u]

Just like Father Gascoigne lol.

 

[Adaren]

Not sure if anyone knows Japanese, but Google Translating the Japanese name of "Celestial Emissary" comes up with:

星界からの使者 -> "Messenger from the star world"

...which is honestly what "Celestial Emissary" suggests in English as well. It seems like, if we take the names as literally as possible, then Celestial Emissary probably didn't evolve from human (alternatively, they ascended to the stars, turned into the Celestial Emissary, and came back with some new knowledge, see "Call Beyond").

Long ago, the Healing Church used phantasms to reach a lofty plane of darkness, but failed to make contact with the outer reaches of the cosmos.

---

So I'm watching some random ENB videos because I'm waiting for my dinner to cook and he says something I don't think I ever heard before, that the word for "Hunter" in the runes of Great Ones is inscribed on your brain in the beginning of the game.

...where did the game imply that?

The Hunter's Mark in your inventory.

Dangling, upside-down rune etched in one's mind.

Symbol of a hunter.

By focusing one's thoughts on this rune, a hunter loses all Blood Echoes, but awakens afresh, as if it were all just a bad dream.

 

[Edzi]

Just like Father Gascoigne lol.

You know what this means? Gascoigne is Ebrietas's dad, meaning the little Yharnam girl is a Great One and Gascoigne is actually Kos/Kosm/The Cosmos. Miyazaki, you genius.

Spoiler

 

[Pie and Beans]

I feel Ebrietas has to be a full on Great One because she was found in the labyrinth and brought out. Her design is way too cthulu to not be a full on base Great One rather than a transformation. But then Rom complicates things. Perhaps Rom was her surrogate/kid.

So I'm watching some random ENB videos because I'm waiting for my dinner to cook and he says something I don't think I ever heard before, that the word for "Hunter" in the runes of Great Ones is inscribed on your brain in the beginning of the game.

...where did the game imply that?

Thats what runes are, and how they were conceived. They are the language of the great ones. For instance, Willem has a rune he 'gives' you, but Willem wasnt around for Caryll's stuff. Mother Brain communicates one word to you chillingly when you make contact: MOON.

You get the "return home without echoes" rune item at the start of the game, and thats
HUNTER'S MARK:
"Dangling, upside-down rune etched in one's mind.

Symbol of a hunter.

By focusing one's thoughts on this rune, a hunter loses all Blood Echoes, but awakens afresh, as if it were all just a bad dream."

 

[Yurt]

Unless that's what they want you to think , what if this is the most clearly spelled out thing ever :lol

Just like Father Gascoigne lol.

sensational

 

[Edzi]

Not sure if anyone knows Japanese, but Google Translating the Japanese name of "Celestial Emissary" comes up with:

星界からの使者 -> "Messenger from the star world"

...which is honestly what "Celestial Emissary" suggests in English as well. It seems like, if we take the names as literally as possible, then Celestial Emissary probably didn't just turn into a human (alternatively, they ascended to the stars, turned into the Celestial Emissary, and came back with some new knowledge, see "Call Beyond").

Can't it go both ways in both languages? A messenger from the stars, or a messenger to the stars? Celestial implies that it belongs or relates to the heavens, but I don't think it strongly implies anything beyond that.

Can you rephrase the last bit? I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're getting at here.

EDIT: Just read your edited post. Makes sense, I can see it going either way.

 

[Ryouji Gunblade]

I just had a thought: What if MP is driven by love and wants to be reunited with the Queen? They seem to be stuck in different dreams. If he propagates the nightmare/dream enough, perhaps they can be reunited.

 

[Yurt]

Ebrietas is definitely a legit Great One (as confirmed by the thing she drops) but I can't be the only one who found it a bit odd to see her kneeling/praying? That's such a human thing to do innit

it's almost exactly what Amelia was doing a couple of floors under her!

 

[OniBarubary]

The Hunter's Mark in your inventory.

Thats what runes are, and how they were conceived. They are the language of the great ones. For instance, Willem has a rune he 'gives' you, but Willem wasnt around for Caryll's stuff. Mother Brain communicates one word to you chillingly when you make contact: MOON.

You get the "return home without echoes" rune item at the start of the game, and thats
HUNTER'S MARK:
"Dangling, upside-down rune etched in one's mind.

Symbol of a hunter.

By focusing one's thoughts on this rune, a hunter loses all Blood Echoes, but awakens afresh, as if it were all just a bad dream."

Ah, okay. Odd. I wonder if you always had it or the Blood Minister etched it in since you don't get a way to etch your own runes in until later.

I know what the runes are and all about Caryll, my vote for dude who is probably inconsequential to the plot that I've talked about the most, but didn't realize you were already runed at the start of the game.

 

[PolishQ]

Ah, okay. Odd. I wonder if you always had it or the Blood Minister etched it in since you don't get a way to etch your own runes in until later.

I know what the runes are and all about Caryll, my vote for dude who is probably inconsequential to the plot that I've talked about the most, but didn't realize you were already runed at the start of the game.

Also possible that the messengers etch it in your mind when they first find you.