KittenMaster
Member
Good observation. Both Great Ones in the respective dream/nightmares give the NIGHTMARE SLAIN message as well.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Bloodborne Story and Lore Discussion Thread [Unmarked Spoilers]
- Thread starter GorillaJu
- Start date
Good observation. Both Great Ones in the respective dream/nightmares give the NIGHTMARE SLAIN message as well.
Mermandala
Member
Formless Oedon through his runes is highly associated with quicksilver bullets which are really a bit of a mystery themselves. "Human or no, the oozing blood is a medium of the highest grade, and the essence of the formless Great One, Oedon. Both Oedon, and his inadvertent worshippers, surreptitiously seek the precious blood." His worshipers are called inadvertent which doesn't jive with an actual Tomb and a Chapel. Pregnancy by him seems to occur immaculately with Arianna which is old-hat for formless deities really. Instead of an invisible Space Dad you create a Pthumerian male likeness to serve as Yharnam's King memorializing all of this into stone. Another way to think about inadvertent is that the manner folks worship Oedon as a traditional God is a ruse and his true worship lies elsewhere, connected to the quicksilver bullet usage. Which goes back to the finding of the various phantasms or slugs. A funny pun I was thinking of was the English slang where slug means a bullet. Probably a weird coincidence.
The PC can create new bullets from blood - that's a pretty neat trick. I've got no way to explain that. I still feel that the formlessness and the invertebrates and the bizarre drawn-out multi-species reproduction cycles is pointing at some kind of cosmic parasite. The Great Joke being that we imagine the "Great Ones" in grand terms of massive monstrous forces or imposing architectural housing wheres they may really be "invisible" critters in the blood of slugs. Slugs and blowflies have a fairly well-known parasitic relationship so maybe that is part of where the freaky "Garden of Eyes" name stems from. Having "eyes inside your brain" in the form of parasites could lead to madness and death, the curse of harboring the Eldritch Truth.
The PC can create new bullets from blood - that's a pretty neat trick. I've got no way to explain that. I still feel that the formlessness and the invertebrates and the bizarre drawn-out multi-species reproduction cycles is pointing at some kind of cosmic parasite. The Great Joke being that we imagine the "Great Ones" in grand terms of massive monstrous forces or imposing architectural housing wheres they may really be "invisible" critters in the blood of slugs. Slugs and blowflies have a fairly well-known parasitic relationship so maybe that is part of where the freaky "Garden of Eyes" name stems from. Having "eyes inside your brain" in the form of parasites could lead to madness and death, the curse of harboring the Eldritch Truth.
Then why the hell does she have it? >_<
OniBarubary
Banned
So someone found an enemy in the chalices that isn't in the guide and I (and many others) have personally never seen before and people are speculating that it's a live version of the invertebrates from the spell items. Once you kill it it poofs away forever, apparently.
Big pic, so I'm just straight-linking it.
http://bloodborne.wiki.fextralife.com/file/view/Bloodborne+-+slug.png/547482074/Bloodborne%20-%20slug.png
Edit: And apparently it's immune to lightning damage? That's weird. That's the only immunity in the game I'm aware of.
Big pic, so I'm just straight-linking it.
http://bloodborne.wiki.fextralife.com/file/view/Bloodborne+-+slug.png/547482074/Bloodborne%20-%20slug.png
Edit: And apparently it's immune to lightning damage? That's weird. That's the only immunity in the game I'm aware of.
The church just took it from him and deduced how to use it. Clearly the church controls Byrgenwerth now. The choir is kind of abandoned now, so maybe fake Iosefka searched for another place to continue her experiments.
PirateKing
Junior Member
They're not simple bullets. They're fused with the owner's blood. I'm guessing the PC has many normal bullets stored but can use his own blood to get extra bullets at the cost of his health.
PirateKing
Junior Member
What the fuck
He makes good points, but also extrapolates a lot. At least he mostly marks where he is extrapolating, so it is a good way of getting a lot of obscure facts in one sitting.
It is a fun read, and it is not really thaaat long.
Oh! Im pretty sure I saw that asshole once. Now that you mention it, I never found him with my 2nd char (although I never did a root chalice with my 2nd char, but did almost all roots ever with my first).
I feel like "his inadvertent worshippers" is talking about the yharnamites in general. They seek the precious blood, both for its healing properties, and also because they're addicted to it. They have no idea about great ones and all that, they're inadvertent worshippers of Oedon because Oedon is represented by blood. Yharnam's Blood Ministration is communion with Oedon.
Also fits with the Tomb and Chapel named after Oedon, the Church uses the old blood to partake in communion with Oedon, but people who use blood as a drug aren't seeking communion.
I'm still not convinced on the imposter doctor being from the Choir, though. Why would she do that to a fellow Choir member, and why does she have knowledge on how to make Numbing Mist, the secret recipe from Cainhurst, guarded by its nobles? She getting pregnant also fits with her being from Cainhurst, possibly related to Arianna and Annalise.
What the fuck
Mermandala
Member
Hah! It's funny you said "stumped" because for the longest time I thought it was coming from that pointless stump near the front of the area that doesn't seem to house anything in both manifestations of the Workshop plus with tree stumps and baths being the abode of messengers it seemed like something was up.
Mermandala
Member
Sure, but by what lore mechanism does blood create bullets? There may not be one (video games). Odeon's Runes are specific to quicksilver bullets so it may be a clue.
OniBarubary
Banned
I think she's a member of the Choir alright, but may have either been from Cainhurst or is a spy from Cainhurst. I don't think OG Iosefka was from the Choir, I think they just used her impostor model at the door to save time since you can never actually physically see regular Iosefka without tricking the game. But yeah, impostor Iosefka has gotta be Choir; her outfit, her experiments, her magic, it just fits too well. The Cainhurst stuff is the only kink and I don't think that explaining that or adding it to her character eliminates her being a full blown Choir member.
Thanks for the info. I will give it a read.
The whole Great One vs Kin vs Ascended etc is probably just a bit of a pantheon sort of thing in the end, like higher gods and lesser gods.
I guess the 3 highest ones are Oedon, Wet Nurse and Moon Presence. First one is never met, the other two are the only ones giving the "Nightmare Slain" message. Both are also strongly associated with their own parallel dimensions - the Nightmare of Mensis and the Hunter's Dream. Then there's the lesser ones, who may or may not be of human or pthumerian origin.
So they're all Great Ones at the end of the day, they just have different "ranks".
I guess the 3 highest ones are Oedon, Wet Nurse and Moon Presence. First one is never met, the other two are the only ones giving the "Nightmare Slain" message. Both are also strongly associated with their own parallel dimensions - the Nightmare of Mensis and the Hunter's Dream. Then there's the lesser ones, who may or may not be of human or pthumerian origin.
So they're all Great Ones at the end of the day, they just have different "ranks".
Ok this made me double check and I am lost now.
Wiki says that fake Iosefka only drops the cord if you kill her after killing Rom. Which suggests she used your incursion into Byrgenwerth to take the cord.
Which means the cord itself is not needed to create Celestials? But the church is also creating celestials, which suggest her to be part of the choir.
But on the other hand, at that point Iosefka seems to be pregnant, and killing her drops the cord. Which has a description that makes it seem like it was Willem's. But since she is pregnant, then maybe it was her cord, and the description is just for flavor??
And I cannot make sense of her Cainhurst connection. Other than you having a Cainhurst summon, which may be the reason she is friendly to you, she thinks you were sent by Cainhurst.
I never thought about the possibility of her being both from Cainhurst and the Choir, you're definitely right that's very possible, especially with the whole spying thing that goes on between Mensis and the Choir.
But I just assumed she got the outfit and hunter tools from Iosefka herself, before turning her into a celestial mob. Explains Iosefka's outfit with more than just "videogames".
Though only "videogames" would explain why they look exactly the same.
Her Cainhurst connection comes from the fact that she gives you Numbing Mist for every person you send there, and Numbing Mist is a secret recipe guarded by Cainhurst nobles.
Every carrier of a child of blood seems to necessarily be connected to the corrupted blood of Cainhurst, possibly related to Yharnam herself in some way. Arianna wears the Noble Dress, which is also from Cainhurst, and her blood's description says it's very similar to the forbidden blood, or something of the sort. And the Tsundere Queen is just from Cainhurst, period, no need to speculate.
Looks pretty much exactly like the slugs in Demon's Souls.
edit: well apart from the squid face I guess.
I wonder if your hunter also comes from Cainhurst; maybe he/she is a descendant of Cainhurst bloodlines and is being called to free the queen.
Which would make it hilarious if you use a female hunter, and never during the game get pregnant by the old ones.
Veritigo_X
Member
With all this Iosefka talk, I decided to check out her dialogue on the wiki. According to that, Imposter Iosefka has dialogue after the blood moon that I've never heard:
Seems like something a member of the church would say, not a Vileblood.
Seems like something a member of the church would say, not a Vileblood.
I'm not sure if the game even has direct evidence to say where you come from and what you were up to before becoming a hunter, I don't think it does, but it's definitely very interesting that you were seeking Paleblood before even becoming a hunter.
You get it from talking to her when she's in the instakill state. And I agree, doesn't sound like a Vileblood, but I don't think she's a Vileblood, just from Cainhurst, maybe related to the Tsundere Queen
Arianna is most definitely not a vileblood, and yet she also has the corrupted blood and gets a child from Oedon.
The fact that it's the corrupted bloodline from Cainhurst can't be a coincidence, not only because of the Cainhurst connections from every person who gets pregnant, but also because of the description of Arianna's cord: "To think, it was corrupted blood that began this eldritch liaison."
Corrupted Blood seems to be key to carrying a Child of Blood.
She says it while she's on the bed before you get the cord from her. It's unsettling to hear her say it.
Hahaha shit, they put the primeval demons in Bloodborne? Need more Demon's Souls connections.
But really, I hope there is more actual secret shit in this game because having two significant do nothing items is a big wet fart.
Yeah, the amount of secrets (and how meaningless they are to the game) was indeed disappointing.
ENB's disappointment in the conclusion of Annalise's quest sums it up pretty well.
WOW, it's fucking nothing!
Maybe some more boss fights against Pthumerian Descendant. Yay!
Not really -- fuck that guy.
Mermandala
Member
Hey everybody do the Oedon Writhe! It's a sick new dance craze!
Blood contains iron. It's using science loosely with a twist.
Captain Pants
Killed by a goddamned Dredgeling
That sure looks a hell of a lot like the Primordial Demons from Demon's Souls.
edit: Beaten with the same picture! Stupid slow internet.
Primeval Demons look different, thought of that too.
different...or the same? Time ages you!
I think that real Isofeka and fake Iosefka is both from the Choir. We find her vial in the nightmare and we all know the Choir is founded by the School of Mensis not to mention the colour of the Iosefka's vial is not red blood but of pale blood. The fake got Choir spells like the Augur,Call beyond and she got Willem's Cord which she use to consume it hence the writhing in her head,it's no surprise since we saw a choir member in Brygenwerth so it's possible she rummaged the building to get it. If consuming three cords makes you a great one. I assume consuming even one cord makes you into something else.
As for the numbing mist connections, it is possible the imposter is a spy infiltrating the choir for Cainhurst considering the church and the Vilebloods are enemies it's no surprise they would send out spies for intel. the only thing throwing me off is that we found 6 numbing mists in Cathedral Ward when the all the numbing you mist can find is in cainhurst.
Besides, where did the speculation of fake iosefka being pregnant come from? Nauseous doesn't necessarily means preganancy and she kept talking about her head instead of her stomach, any headache strong enough can bring a person down on all four limbs.
As for the numbing mist connections, it is possible the imposter is a spy infiltrating the choir for Cainhurst considering the church and the Vilebloods are enemies it's no surprise they would send out spies for intel. the only thing throwing me off is that we found 6 numbing mists in Cathedral Ward when the all the numbing you mist can find is in cainhurst.
Besides, where did the speculation of fake iosefka being pregnant come from? Nauseous doesn't necessarily means preganancy and she kept talking about her head instead of her stomach, any headache strong enough can bring a person down on all four limbs.
Mermandala
Member
Could be. That's looser than Arianna after the Hunt though if that's science. Speaking of her, at least she seemed to be sort of regular pregnant, unlike poor fake Iosefka who got the worst kind of pregnant. Head-Pregnant.
We can get those "spells" too, and we're not from the Choir. That's what I was using when assuming she wasn't from the Choir. She could just take the tools and clothes from Iosefka.
But I'm getting more and more convincend on the "Cainhurst Spy in the Choir" thing, though we'll never know for sure, I guess.
Her being pregnant came from her reaction, the dialogue "how they writhe in my head", the Oedon Writhe rune she drops when you kill her before the red moon and Oedon wanting babbys, I guess, but you do have a point, the babby never comes out.
Here´s my take on this subject.
The cord was found in fake iosefka and i think she took it from the corpse of the real one.
I believe that the real iosefka was a member of the school of mensis because you find iosefka´s blood vial in the nighmare of mensis (i know the description of the item is a little ambiguous but whatever) and maybe she was a spy,just like edgard was.
To sum it up,real iosefka stole the umbilical cord and decided to hide in her clinic but then the fake one found her and kill her to take it back.
The fact that there was spy of the choir(edgard) in the school of mensis proves that something was happening between both sides,so basically i think fake iosefka was a member too,she can even use "A call beyond" which is part of the choir´s arsenal.
OniBarubary
Banned
I'm moreso intrigued why one third umbilical is enough to fuck up most of the NPCs but you straight-shoot three of them and it turns you into a god.
...maybe this whole game is a metaphor for drugs.
...maybe this whole game is a metaphor for drugs.
But she is turning people you send to her into celestials and only in the choir you have the knowledge to do that. I stick to she is both from Cainhurst and The Choir.
Yeah, the whole spy thing also made me think that Iosefka's Vial in the Nightmare was a hint that she was from Mensis, but I still don't see how that would be relevant, what difference that makes to anything, you know? Iosefka was just helping dudes, from what I understand, it's fake Iosefka that's actually relevant to the lore, but that vial in the Nightmare definitely makes me think Iosefka is supposed to be very important as well. We need more info on her :C
Well, if you only take one third cord, the Moon Presence turns you into the new "host of the dream", basically. So you do need three to not get fucked.
Indeed, indeed. It's getting kinda hard to doubt it at this point, unless someone notice some very subtle detail that proves this wrong.
KittenMaster
Member
What if... the vial was brought TO the nightmare?
One time in an early chalice (depth 1 pthumeru level 3?) I found a thin, whitish-blue glowing guy with a walking stick. He just ignored me and walked up to a wall and stood there. When I got close he'd look at me, then when I moved away, he'd go back to looking at the wall. No dialogue options. Any idea what this was?
Sure, but why?
I just killed it because reasons. No idea what that is, storywise.
Wait what? My understanding is there are only three endings...
1. Submit
2. Fight Gehrman
3. Eat 3 cords and Fight Gehrman & Moon Presence
1 & 2 don't require eating any cords.
I know, I just mean that only taking three can have the positive effect of transcending the hunt, you're still fucked if you take one or two, so it's not a progressive thing, the more you take the more fucked you are. You need to take three or more to make a real difference.
Mermandala
Member
Almonds are making us all nuts.
OniBarubary
Banned
Amygdala just means tonsil in Greek (and almond). It's still a real part of the brain that was named that due to how it looked. The part of the brain called the amygdala does in fact control fear, amongst other things.
I was thinking... the real iosefka isn't as kind and gentle everyone think she is if she is from the choir. She refuses to open the door because of her patients but we never saw any of the patients in there except for that celestial on the table. And we did see all the dead bodies being dumped through the hole while we ascend the ladder from the forbidden woods and just so happens we see celestials in the woods which is connected to the clinic.