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[Edzi]

I think people just assumed Mergo died because of the "Every Great One loses its child" and the blood on Yharnam's dress. But you're right, it doesn't explicitly say Mergo's dead.

We also don't know if Arianna's baby would die anyway, if it would, Oedon is kind of an idiot. Every red moon he does the same thing, it never works, and he keeps doing it anyway.

Well, assuming I didn't miss any major/explicit lore regarding Mergo's current status, then I feel like it's fair to assume Mergo is actually alive. This makes more sense to me because your goal, as a hunter tied to the dream, seems to be to kill the newborn Great One. All Great Ones do lose their children, but that doesn't mean ALL of their children are lost. If I remember correctly, it's worded in such a way where it says they lose their children, and THEN seek a surrogate. This seems to indicate that the children they have using surrogates can and often are successful, with Mergo being the most recent case.

So far, this is how I can make sense of the Moon Presence's motivation. It seems like the MP does not want competition in the way of new Great Ones, so it sets up the dream to guide a hunter to kill it during the hunt. This also explains why, if you've ingested 3 umbilical cords, the MP jumps back from you (maybe in fear or disgust?) and begins to fight. It senses that you're now a threat, and so tries to dispose of you.

That is a good question. After defeating Rom, I believe we are instructed to "slay the nightmare newborn" (or something like that), which would make me think that Mergo was just born. But that can't be right if Yharnam gave birth to Mergo however many years ago.

One thing I can think of is that maybe death is a very different experience for Great Ones, and perhaps it's not really permanent. The goal of the hunt (at least for hunter's tied to the dream) seems to be to hunt down and kill the newborn. Maybe the newborn needs to be repeatedly "killed", in order to stop it from growing up into a fully formed Great One? Every night of the hunt, the Moon Presence picks a special hunter to carry out this task. Before it was Djura and Eileen, and now it's your turn. (Also, as a side note, Mergo being described as a newborn might not mean much in terms of time, since who knows how long a Great One baby takes to "grow up"?)

I remember reading somewhere that if you play the music box in the Wet Nurse's boss room after killing her/Mergo, then you can hear a baby laughing. I haven't had a chance to test this since I'm still in the beginning of NG+, but if it's true then it might support the idea that even though you 'killed' the newborn, it still exists in some form.

Another thought I just had that's kinda out there, but what if the reason the Great Ones always lose their children is because other Great Ones keep killing them? Maybe they're all jealous of each other, so they pretty much live in a cycle where they're killing each others babies over and over again?

It's interesting to think that the hunters, the scourge of beasts, and everything the Pthumerians/Yharnamites have gone through could just be insignificant pieces in a game played by the Great Ones.

Also, another thing that just came to mind, but could the birth of a newborn Great One, or in Mergo's case a possibly "reborn" Great One, somehow be a trigger for the hunt? It could be tied to the increase in beasts or something to do with the ritual reaching some kind of end... I dunno, I'm just writing down a random stream of consciousness at this point... Trying to tie everything to the MP and it's motivations. I probably need to revisit the item descriptions regarding the hunt.


-----(LAST EDIT, I SWEAR)-----

Completely unrelated thought I just had, but I wanna write it down here for reference. I've always been a bit confused regarding some theories that indicate the world we're in (Yharnam) is some kind of dream world or alternate dimension. The guy at the beginning of the game who begins your first blood transfusion seems to indicate it as being some kind of nightmare. I was thinking that maybe what this means is that people who use the special blood of Yharnam enter into the sphere of influence of the Great Ones. They now become somewhat aware of them, and are part of their world, thus entering a type of "nightmare". It could also mean that you literally enter an alternate nightmare world. I've heard people mention parallel dimensions/dreams that the Great Ones like to dwell in, so maybe all those who use the blood are slipped into this hidden dimension of the Great Ones which exists on top of the "normal" world. In this way, we're still in the "real" world of Yharnam, but on the same plane of existence as the Great Ones as well.

 

[Skii]

I don't think they want to specifically contact Mergo. I think they just wanted to contact A Great One and Mergo was the one they got for whatever reason. Maybe cause it was easiest. Dunno, I might be forgetting item descriptions as per usual.

Also Mergo is physically dead and has been for a long time before the game starts. Mergo exists only in the Nightmare and as a Great One I'm not sure it has the same rules about growing up or maturing that humans do. Besides, that baby's cries are able to resonate anywhere in Yharnam in the real world even though it's dead and exists in a dream (which might be a cause of people going mad) and since we were sent to kill it I don't think it was gonna grow up to be a random scrub Great One. Dude was probably gonna be a big shot if he matured.

Mergo's dead? Interesting. Maybe the nightmare is a moment in the past? Still doesn't really explain why we can hear the cries during our time in Yharnam. Also doesn't explain why we can't hear it in the Hunter's dream,

One thing I can think of is that maybe death is a very different experience for Great Ones, and perhaps it's not really permanent. The goal of the hunt (at least for hunter's tied to the dream) seems to be to hunt down and kill the newborn. Maybe the newborn needs to be repeatedly "killed", in order to stop it from growing up into a fully formed Great One? Every night of the hunt, the Moon Presence picks a special hunter to carry out this task. Before it was Djura and Eileen, and now it's your turn. (Also, as a side note, Mergo being described as a newborn might not mean much in terms of time, since who knows how long a Great One baby takes to "grow up"?)

I remember reading somewhere that if you play the music box in the Wet Nurse's boss room after killing her/Mergo, then you can hear a baby laughing. I haven't had a chance to test this since I'm still in the beginning of NG+, but if it's true then it might support the idea that even though you 'killed' the newborn, it still exists in some form.

Another thought I just had that's kinda out there, but what if the reason the Great Ones always lose their children is because other Great Ones keep killing them? Maybe they're all jealous of each other, so they pretty much live in a cycle where they're killing each others babies over and over again?

It's interesting to think that the hunters, the scourge of beasts, and everything the Pthumerians/Yharnamites have gone through could just be insignificant pieces in a game played by the Great Ones.

(also, another thing that just came to mind, but what if the birth of a newborn Great One, or in Mergo's case a possibly "reborn" Great One, is somehow a trigger for the hunt? It could be tied to the increase in beasts or something to do with the ritual reaching some kind of end... I dunno, I'm just writing down a random stream of conscienceless at this point)

I think you make a good point. ENB just put out his last walkthrough video and he believes that the doll is in fact a Great One. The fact that it always resurrects after you kill it is one of the reasons why he believes she is one (and the fact she has pale blood).

Also, Mergo resurrecting every hunt would make sense of the school of Mensis and their practices in contacting him.

It would also explain why Oedon can continue to impregnate women even when he already has a tomb.

Same goes for Amygdala, Rom and Ebrietas featuring in the Chalice dungeons. You can face them multiple times implying they can't be truly killed.

You "killing" Moon Presence and becoming the Great One could just mean that you will now become the new Moon Presence. It never truly died. You become the new host for it essentially.

 

[Edzi]

Mergo's dead? Interesting. Maybe the nightmare is a moment in the past? Still doesn't really explain why we can hear the cries during our time in Yharnam. Also doesn't explain why we can't hear it in the Hunter's dream,



I think you make a good point. ENB just put out his last walkthrough video and he believes that the doll is in fact a Great One. The fact that it always resurrects after you kill it is one of the reasons why he believes she is one (and the fact she has pale blood).

Also, Mergo resurrecting every hunt would make sense of the school of Mensis and their practices in contacting him.

It would also explain why Oedon can continue to impregnate women even when he already has a tomb.

Same goes for Amygdala, Rom and Ebrietas featuring in the Chalice dungeons. You can face them multiple times implying they can't be truly killed.

You "killing" Moon Presence and becoming the Great One could just mean that you will now become the new Moon Presence. It never truly died. You become the new host for it essentially.

Yeah, makes sense. I agree with all your points except the last one though, since I don't think you become a new Moon Presence. The MP is probably not permanently dead and will likely return, but the fact that it fought you indicates to me that it saw you as a possible threat because you were in the process of ascending to become a new Great One.

 

[Skii]

Yeah, makes sense. I agree with all your points except the last one though, since I don't think you become a new Moon Presence. The MP is probably not permanently dead and will likely return, but the fact that it fought you indicates to me that it saw you as a possible threat because you were in the process of ascending to become a new Great One.

Yeah, I'm reaching. This game is definitely more vague than any of the Souls game and also has more lore imo making it really difficult to piece all of it together.

 

[Toxi]

I really feel like "Gehrman" is not actually the original Gehrman. My only proof...

• During the final battle, Gehrman switches clothes from his normal attire to the Charred Set and the Top Hat. However, the description for Gehrman's clothing says it was his hunter attire, so switching it out when he joins the hunt makes little sense.
  
• Not only does Gehrman change clothes in the final battle, his peg leg magically is whole with no explanation. Did it really grow back, or was the missing leg simply an illusion?
  
• The description of the Old Hunter's Badge ends with: "It should be left in peace, unless one is truly willing to assume the will of those gone before." What is the will of those gone before? Why does this sound like a warning?
  
• Gehrman noticeably hesitates upon saying his own name. He shows no signs of forgetfulness outside of this moment, so why would he hesitate?
  
• Many other hunters came before the player. Their graves dot the Hunter's Dream. But when you think about it, does it really make sense that the player was the first to refuse Gehrman's offer? Gehrman even says, "It always comes down the to the Hunter's helper to clean up these sorts of messes." It seems implausible that the player would have been the first to fight or even kill Gehrman, so how is he still around?
  
• In the Honoring Wishes ending, you not only take Gehrman's place watching over the dream, you also sit in his wheelchair and let the doll push you around. Why? The player character has no problems walking. Why is the player adopting Gehrman's mannerisms when all they did was take over his job?

So here's what I think: The Gehrman in the dream isn't the original Gehrman. He was one of the many hunters who came to the Hunter's Dream before the player, and like the player he refused Gehrman's offer and killed the old man. When the Moon Presence bewitched him, he took the Old Hunter Badge and assumed Gehrman's role watching over the dream. As time went on, he began to be more and more like Gehrman in appearance: First he stopped walking and sat on the wheelchair, then his clothes became Gehrman's clothes, his leg seemed to vanish, his mind began to become Gehrman's... He truly "assumed the will" of Gehrman. There is still some semblance of the original hunter's old self present when "Gehrman" struggles to remember his name, or when he returns to the hunt and regains his original appearance, but there's not much left.

And yes, this makes Gehrman the Bloodborne equivalent of Tim Allen in The Santa Clause.

 

[KittenMaster]

I wouldn't assume he was one of Gherman's understudies just yet, though it does occur to me that the Gherman you see in the dream prior to Mergo being killed acts like a sort of illusion that gets dispelled if you attack it.

 

[LiK]

gaddamn ENB. said the Doll could be a Great One. cannot wait for his lore video!

 

[FF Seraphim]

I really feel like "Gehrman" is not actually the original Gehrman. My only proof...

• During the final battle, Gehrman switches clothes from his normal attire to the Charred Set and the Top Hat. However, the description for Gehrman's clothing says it was his hunter attire, so switching it out when he joins the hunt makes little sense.
  
• Not only does Gehrman change clothes in the final battle, his peg leg magically is whole with no explanation. Did it really grow back, or was the missing leg simply an illusion?
  
• The description of the Old Hunter's Badge ends with: "It should be left in peace, unless one is truly willing to assume the will of those gone before." What is the will of those gone before? Why does this sound like a warning?
  
• Gehrman noticeably hesitates upon saying his own name. He shows no signs of forgetfulness outside of this moment, so why would he hesitate?
  
• Many other hunters came before the player. Their graves dot the Hunter's Dream. But when you think about it, does it really make sense that the player was the first to refuse Gehrman's offer? Gehrman even says, "It always comes down the to the Hunter's helper to clean up these sorts of messes." It seems implausible that the player would have been the first to fight or even kill Gehrman, so how is he still around?
  
• In the Honoring Wishes ending, you not only take Gehrman's place watching over the dream, you also sit in his wheelchair and let the doll push you around. Why? The player character has no problems walking. Why is the player adopting Gehrman's mannerisms when all they did was take over his job?

So here's what I think: The Gehrman in the dream isn't the original Gehrman. He was one of the many hunters who came to the Hunter's Dream before the player, and like the player he refused Gehrman's offer and killed the old man. When the Moon Presence bewitched him, he took the Old Hunter Badge and assumed Gehrman's role watching over the dream. As time went on, he began to be more and more like Gehrman in appearance: First he stopped walking and sat on the wheelchair, then his clothes became Gehrman's clothes, his leg seemed to vanish, his mind began to become Gehrman's... He truly "assumed the will" of Gehrman. There is still some semblance of the original hunter's old self present when "Gehrman" struggles to remember his name, or when he returns to the hunt and regains his original appearance, but there's not much left.

And yes, this makes Gehrman the Bloodborne equivalent of Tim Allen in The Santa Clause.

This would mean the Hunter's before get Gehrman's memories as well though. If you talk to sleeping Gehrman behind the Dream Workshop you hear him whimpering for Laurence to come free him from the Dream.
https://youtu.be/Pkm3_X6BmZo

When you kill him he says "The Night and Dream were long..." in a way that makes it seem he is happy to have died.

 

[Edzi]

I really feel like "Gehrman" is not actually the original Gehrman. My only proof...

• During the final battle, Gehrman switches clothes from his normal attire to the Charred Set and the Top Hat. However, the description for Gehrman's clothing says it was his hunter attire, so switching it out when he joins the hunt makes little sense.
  
• Not only does Gehrman change clothes in the final battle, his peg leg magically is whole with no explanation. Did it really grow back, or was the missing leg simply an illusion?
  
• The description of the Old Hunter's Badge ends with: "It should be left in peace, unless one is truly willing to assume the will of those gone before." What is the will of those gone before? Why does this sound like a warning?
  
• Gehrman noticeably hesitates upon saying his own name. He shows no signs of forgetfulness outside of this moment, so why would he hesitate?
  
• Many other hunters came before the player. Their graves dot the Hunter's Dream. But when you think about it, does it really make sense that the player was the first to refuse Gehrman's offer? Gehrman even says, "It always comes down the to the Hunter's helper to clean up these sorts of messes." It seems implausible that the player would have been the first to fight or even kill Gehrman, so how is he still around?
  
• In the Honoring Wishes ending, you not only take Gehrman's place watching over the dream, you also sit in his wheelchair and let the doll push you around. Why? The player character has no problems walking. Why is the player adopting Gehrman's mannerisms when all they did was take over his job?

So here's what I think: The Gehrman in the dream isn't the original Gehrman. He was one of the many hunters who came to the Hunter's Dream before the player, and like the player he refused Gehrman's offer and killed the old man. When the Moon Presence bewitched him, he took the Old Hunter Badge and assumed Gehrman's role watching over the dream. As time went on, he began to be more and more like Gehrman in appearance: First he stopped walking and sat on the wheelchair, then his clothes became Gehrman's clothes, his leg seemed to vanish, his mind began to become Gehrman's... He truly "assumed the will" of Gehrman. There is still some semblance of the original hunter's old self present when "Gehrman" struggles to remember his name, or when he returns to the hunt and regains his original appearance, but there's not much left.

And yes, this makes Gehrman the Bloodborne equivalent of Tim Allen in The Santa Clause.

I feel like there are too many inconsistencies for this to be true. For one, I distinctly remember Gehrman limping during the final fight, so are you sure his peg leg disappeared? Also, Gehrman frequently dreams of Laurence and Master Willem, indicating that he really is just that old and has been in the dream for a while. Changing clothes may not mean anything either (though I admit, I never noticed this when I fought him). He may not have been planning on joining the hunt and fighting you in the end, so he just chose to go casual while he freed you from the dream.

The only bit that sort of gets me thinking is why you'd be in Gehrman's wheelchair in that ending, but I think that can sort of be explained away by the MP. Maybe it renders your legs useless/weak so you don't get any funny ideas about leaving the dream? The MP could have allowed Gehrman a bit more strength than usual to fight you, since at that point you were the primary threat to the dream. Or, the more likely answer could just be that after getting knocked out by the MP once you beat Gehrman, the Doll just decides to wheel you around until you wake up. Either way, I don't think it's a terribly important point. It may even have been there just to drive it home to the player that you've taken over Gehrman's position in the Dream.

 

[Dresden]

gaddamn ENB. said the Doll could be a Great One. cannot wait for his lore video!

that 90 page reddit thing came to the same conclusion as well, fun stuff.

The Doll, who nurtured us, emboldened us, strengthened and cared for us. The Doll cradles us in a motherly fashion, giggling.

"Are you cold? Oh, Good Hunter."

Perhaps not every Great One loses its child after all.

 

[Toxi]

I feel like there are too many inconsistencies for this to be true. For one, I distinctly remember Gehrman limping during the final fight, so are you sure his peg leg disappeared?

I didn't see him limping, but you're right. I double-checked, and you can see his foot missing for his right leg in the boss fight (Though it's very hard to make out thanks to all the flowers and he doesn't seem impaired at all). So I guess that point's out the window.

Man, Gehrman (Or fake Gehrman) is a badass fighting like that without a leg.

Also, Gehrman frequently dreams of Laurence and Master Willem, indicating that he really is just that old.

Again, the theory is that a hunter becomes Gehrman in body and mind. Hell, it might be possible that Gehrman can never actually escape the Hunter's Dream, because he

Changing clothes may not mean anything either (though I admit, I never noticed this when I fought him) since he may not have been planning on joining the hunt and fighting you in the end.

It's odd because he changes from the clothes specifically noted to be Gehrman's hunter attire to a different set when he joins the hunt.

 

[VinFTW]

Holy fuck, that'd be amazing (Doll being a great one).

Also, that weird creature in the chalice seems like a further grown "infant" great one like the one we turn into.

 

[Skii]

So when the doll says "I'm a doll, created by you humans", it could possibly mean it was born from a human surrogate.

 

[Toxi]

So when the doll says "I'm a doll, created by you humans", it could possibly mean it was born from a human surrogate.

...What if the Great Ones were created by humans? By our dreams and nightmares come to life?

 

[Gattsu25]

...What if the Great Ones were created by humans? By our dreams and nightmares come to life?

Dude, your avatar is awesome.

Sorry. Carry on.

 

[bodyofanamerican]

I haven't been able to find a straight answer. When does Gehrman mention Willem and Laurence in his sleep?

 

[FF Seraphim]

I haven't been able to find a straight answer. When does Gehrman mention Willem and Laurence in his sleep?

When he goes to sleep, not sure when that happens....

You know what else is odd? When he tells you to climb above the ward. Is he telling us to hunt down Ebrietas? Or is he wanting us to find the Old Workshop...

 

[Neoweee]

When he goes to sleep, not sure when that happens....

You know what else is odd? When he tells you to climb above the ward. Is he telling us to hunt down Ebrietas? Or is he wanting us to find the Old Workshop...

He's giving you directions on how to advance, so neither of those things. If you aren't buying the Ward key, you need to kill BSB, climb the workshop, then drop down into the Cathedral Ward.

 

[III-V]

It would be interesting if the doll was a great one, but I am not sure if it makes sense.

She even states that she was made by humans.

One interesting tidbit is that she is pale blood. The first note that the PC comes across is the one in the clinic telling the PC to seek pale blood to transcend the hunt, which does appear to be on of her functions if you fight and defeat the MP.

Other notes about the doll are her incredible height, and in the chalice dungeons, there are statues of tall women standing over gravestones holding a light and wearing a shawl.

 

[OniBarubary]

It would be interesting if the doll was a great one, but I am not sure if it makes sense.

She even states that she was made by humans.

One interesting tidbit is that she is pale blood. The first note that the PC comes across is the one in the clinic telling the PC to seek pale blood to transcend the hunt, which does appear to be on of her functions if you fight and defeat the MP.

Other notes about the doll are her incredible height, and in the chalice dungeons, there are statues of tall women standing over gravestones holding a light and wearing a shawl.

The Pthumerians are a super tall race. Stand next to Yharnam in front of the Wet Nurse bsttle and see how she's like 2 feet taller than you.

Doll may be based on their proportions

 

[bodyofanamerican]

When he goes to sleep, not sure when that happens....

You know what else is odd? When he tells you to climb above the ward. Is he telling us to hunt down Ebrietas? Or is he wanting us to find the Old Workshop...

I found him sleeping once but he just snores. Are there other times??

I think he's probably just directing you to the crazy fucked up shit in the Upper Ward.

 

[The Xtortionist]

I thought Gehrman was just directing you to Amelia so you could learn the password and go to Byrgenwerth *shrug*

 

[LiK]

I haven't been able to find a straight answer. When does Gehrman mention Willem and Laurence in his sleep?

I dunno about Willem but he mentions Laurence if you find him behind the Workshop asleep in his wheelchair. It's hard to hear so you need to have subtitles on. That's how people have been discovering it.

 

[Adam Blue]

It would be interesting if the doll was a great one, but I am not sure if it makes sense.

She even states that she was made by humans.

One interesting tidbit is that she is pale blood. The first note that the PC comes across is the one in the clinic telling the PC to seek pale blood to transcend the hunt, which does appear to be on of her functions if you fight and defeat the MP.

Other notes about the doll are her incredible height, and in the chalice dungeons, there are statues of tall women standing over gravestones holding a light and wearing a shawl.

This could somehow be related to those frenzy-brain enemies that are wearing doll clothes.

 

[bosseye]

Might have missed this (sorry if so), but can anyone tell me what the voice says when you consume a madman's knowledge and gain insight? It seems to get clearer the higher your insight goes and it definitely has the word 'hunter' but other than that I can't make it out.

 

[Meneses]

Makes sense that the Doll could be a Great One, or maybe a creation of the Great Ones in the image of "humanoid" people, as kind of a bridge between the two species, or maybe as some kind of experiment in replicating the "human" reproductive system - I can't remember if it's stated anywhere in-game, but assuming the first contact was with the Pthumerians, the Great Ones would create a tall, pale "person" because that's how they saw them.

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

So I was thinking... DLC/prequel that takes place in Pthumeria during its downfall. Cool idea or not?

 

[PolishQ]

Makes sense that the Doll could be a Great One, or maybe a creation of the Great Ones in the image of "humanoid" people, as kind of a bridge between the two species, or maybe as some kind of experiment in replicating the "human" reproductive system - I can't remember if it's stated anywhere in-game, but assuming the first contact was with the Pthumerians, the Great Ones would create a tall, pale "person" because that's how they saw them.

It could also be that the Doll is an avatar for the Moon Presence. During the Gehrman boss battle, he sometimes turns to the moon, basks in its glow, and becomes powered up. This looks an awful lot like what happens when we channel blood echoes through the Doll.

Of course, that doesn't explain why the Doll is still "alive" after we kill the Moon Presence... but maybe we only destroyed its physical manifestation? The moon is still in the sky, after all.

 

[YeSp]

So when the doll says "I'm a doll, created by you humans", it could possibly mean it was born from a human surrogate.

If you go to the old workshop in the real world you will see the doll ..it that sense it was created by humans (Gherman). There is also a third of an umbilical cord as well which is a significant clue about the hunters dream. Gherman like Micolash is a host of the hunters dream. Perhaps the great one took the form of the doll.

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

I definitely think Gehrman created the doll. There are a lot of hints about this, mostly dealing with how lonely he was. Of course, there is a difference between the doll who is a physical object and the doll who is the actual sentient force inhabiting the object.

 

[Von Krukru]

The Doll in the dream must be an idealised version of the Doll of the workshop (just an inanimate object). Like Mergo's Wet Nurse seems to be an idealised version of Eileen in the dream of Micolash.

 

[Toxi]

Like Mergo's Wet Nurse seems to be an idealised version of Eileen in the dream of Micolash.

Where do people get this idea? There's nothing to indicate Mergo's Wet Nurse has anything to do with Eileen. "They both have feathers" means little; so do all the belly-dragging crows in Yharnam. There's no reason why Micolash would even know who Eileen is.

Dude, your avatar is awesome.

Sorry. Carry on.

Thanks. Yours is pretty creepy.

 

[Gbraga]

I don't think the Doll being a Great One is really supported by the game, honestly.

Most of the points ENB pointed could be explained by "it's a dream and she's a doll". Her pale blood also doesn't really indicate anything. Beings who have pale blood in the game are kin, not great ones, the great ones all have red blood (correct me if I'm wrong).

The Doll could be influenced/controlled by the Moon Presence, definitely, after all, even Gehrman and later the good hunter (depending on your ending) become captivated by the moon presence and watch over the dream, commanding the hunt.

 

[Toxi]

Most of the points ENB pointed could be explained by "it's a dream and she's a doll". Her pale blood also doesn't really indicate anything. Beings who have pale blood in the game are kin, not great ones, the great ones all have red blood (correct me if I'm wrong).

Ebrietas has clear blood. She is both Kin and a Great One.

 

[LiK]

I don't think the Doll being a Great One is really supported by the game, honestly.

Most of the points ENB pointed could be explained by "it's a dream and she's a doll". Her pale blood also doesn't really indicate anything. Beings who have pale blood in the game are kin, not great ones, the great ones all have red blood (correct me if I'm wrong).

The Doll could be influenced/controlled by the Moon Presence, definitely, after all, even Gehrman and later the good hunter (depending on your ending) become captivated by the moon presence and watch over the dream, commanding the hunt.

the lore video is gunna be gud. ENB seems pretty excited about it.

 

[Gbraga]

Ebrietas has clear blood. She is both Kin and a Great One.

Ok, nevermind that point then. I still don't see how having pale blood would be evidence of being a Great One, since the Great Ones with pale blood we encounter are clearly in the minority, but still, it's a valid thing to point out.

I just feel like this is one of the "wouldn't it be cool?" theories. There's nothing in the game to convince me of this, and it doesn't really change anything. Great One or not, she upgrades us and takes care of us when we become a Great One, it doesn't change anything at all. It's a really major point to be just a cool detail/secret.

 

[Edzi]

Ebrietas has clear blood. She is both Kin and a Great One.

Can someone give me a brief summary of what Kin are in the game (preferably citing in game lore)? Can the term "Kin" just be seen as a way of saying "anything related to and including Great Ones"? Or does the in game lore actually give enough information to classify them as a separate category of beings?

 

[Kazuhira]

Nah,i don´t think the doll is a great one,the paleblood doesn´t mean too much,it's very inconsistent.
The brain of mensis is the only great one that we´re 100% sure because the "living string" confirms it and that thing has red blood.
Wet nurse(nightmare)=red blood
Amygdala(great one?)=red blood
Rom(Kin)=red blood
Ebrietas(Great One?)=pale blood
Celestial emissary(Kin)=pale blood.
moon presence(Nightmare)=red blood
Maybe the "seek pale blood to transcend the hunt" message was only about finding the doll because you need her to level up,i don´t fucking know.
Anyway,the "paleblood=great one" logic is wrong imo.

 

[LiK]

ENB went through the trouble of repeating that Ebrietas is a Great One. so yea

 

[Toxi]

Nah,i don´t think the doll is a great one,the paleblood doesn´t mean too much,it's very inconsistent.
The brain of mensis is the only great one that we´re 100% sure because the "living string" confirms it and that thing has red blood.
Wet nurse(nightmare)=red blood
Amygdala(great one?)=red blood
Rom(Kin)=red blood
Ebrietas(Great One?)=pale blood
Celestial emissary(Kin)=pale blood.
moon presence(Nightmare)=red blood
Maybe the "seek pale blood to transcend the hunt" message was only about finding the doll because you need her to level up,i don´t fucking know.
Anyway,the "paleblood=great one" logic is wrong imo.

Ebrietas is confirmed as a Great One by the Auger of Ebrietas description. She is also Kin (don't ask me how that works) according to the guide.

Amygdala, Rom, the Wet Nurse, and the Celestial Emissary are called Great Ones in their trophy descriptions.

And Paleblood was confirmed to refer to the Moon Presence.

 

[Gbraga]

Can someone give me a brief summary of what Kin are in the game (preferably citing in game lore)? Can the term "Kin" just be seen as a way of saying "anything related to and including Great Ones"? Or does the in game lore actually give enough information to classify them as a separate category of beings?

That was my first interpretation, but since ENB mentioned that Rom isn't a Great One, she's Kin, that made me rethink that.

The game, as far as I know, just uses Kin as an enemy type.

Kin Coldblood says:

"Coldblood of inhuman kin of the cosmos, brethren of the Great Ones", but I guess that could work both ways.

 

[Alebrije]

Mergo's dead? Interesting. Maybe the nightmare is a moment in the past? Still doesn't really explain why we can hear the cries during our time in Yharnam. Also doesn't explain why we can't hear it in the Hunter's dream,



I think you make a good point. ENB just put out his last walkthrough video and he believes that the doll is in fact a Great One. The fact that it always resurrects after you kill it is one of the reasons why he believes she is one (and the fact she has pale blood).

Also, Mergo resurrecting every hunt would make sense of the school of Mensis and their practices in contacting him.

It would also explain why Oedon can continue to impregnate women even when he already has a tomb.

Same goes for Amygdala, Rom and Ebrietas featuring in the Chalice dungeons. You can face them multiple times implying they can't be truly killed.

You "killing" Moon Presence and becoming the Great One could just mean that you will now become the new Moon Presence. It never truly died. You become the new host for it essentially.

I have not doubt that the Doll is a Great One , basically she gives you power in exchange for echoes, why does she wants you to gain power? Because she is looking someone that can stops Mergo. It seems Mergo is a thread for other Great ones.

 

[Toxi]

I have not doubt that the Doll is a Great One , basically she gives you power in exchange for echoes, why does she wants you to gain power? Because she is looking someone that can stops Mergo. It seems Mergo is a thread for other Great ones.

Or it might just be that she is a doll created to serve your desires.

That's a very important idea around the Doll; she has no emotions or identity because everything she does is to serve you and make you happy. When you give her the hairpin, it's the first time someone actually gave something to her and treated her as something more than a toy or a tool, which is why she starts feeling real emotions.

 

[Edzi]

That was my first interpretation, but since ENB mentioned that Rom isn't a Great One, she's Kin, that made me rethink that.

The game, as far as I know, just uses Kin as an enemy type.

Kin Coldblood says:

"Coldblood of inhuman kin of the cosmos, brethren of the Great Ones", but I guess that could work both ways.

Interesting. Rom is explicitly called a Great One in the trophy description, so ENB describing her as Kin makes it seem pretty likely that the two are not mutually exclusive.

What are all the bosses in the game that are considered Kin?

EDIT: wait, did ENB explicitly say Rom was NOT a Great One and only Kin? I don't see how the trophy description could be wrong.

Maybe the idea is that all Kin are a subset of Great Ones, possibly those that ascended to Great One status. So you can have original Great Ones and then lesser Kin Great Ones. I'd need a list of all bosses that are considered Kin to make up my mind though...

 

[Gbraga]

Interesting. Rom is explicitly called a Great One in the trophy description, so ENB describing her as Kin makes it seem pretty likely that the two are not mutually exclusive.

What are all the bosses in the game that are considered Kin?

EDIT: wait, did ENB explicitly say Rom was NOT a Great One and only Kin? I don't see how the trophy description could be wrong.

I don't think it's wrong, I think he just meant she's not a legit Great One, she ascended, but it's not quite on their level.

And I think the game backs this up with the cord ending. There seems to be a very important difference between the infant great one you become and what Rom became, it wouldn't be such a big deal to be the secret ending if it was something they already did with Rom.

 

[Edzi]

I don't think it's wrong, I think he just meant she's not a legit Great One, she ascended, but it's not quite on their level.

And I think the game backs this up with the cord ending. There seems to be a very important difference between the infant great one you become and what Rom became, it wouldn't be such a big deal to be the secret ending if it was something they already did with Rom.

Ah, you beat my second edit. Agreed, this makes more sense if Kin are a lesser type of ascended Great Ones.

Okay, someone please correct me here, but here's how I'd classify the "Great Ones" in the game (Keep in mind, I'm pretty unsure about the lore that backs this up so please help me out here):

Legit OG Great Ones:
Ebrietas
Mergo
Mergo's Wet Nurse
Moon Presence
Oedon
Amygdala


Ascended "lesser" Kin Great Ones:
The One Reborn (though I tend to see this one as more of a failed attempt maybe? Or maybe just something else entirely unrelated to Great Ones?)
Celestial Emmissary (Iffy on this one, could also be seen as a legit OG GO)
Rom
The Brain Of Mensis (Pointed out by Gbraga that the Living String description says it's a legit Great One)

 

[Gbraga]

Does the trophy even call The One Reborn a Great One?

The Brain of Mensis is a legit Great One, the Living String says: "The immense brain that Mensis retrieved from the nightmare was indeed lined with eyes on the inside, but they were of an evil sort, and the brain itself was terrible rotten. But even still, it was a legitimate Great One(...)"

 

[LiK]

Does the trophy even call The One Reborn a Great One?

just checked, nope.

 

[Edzi]

Does the trophy even call The One Reborn a Great One?

I don't think so, I'm just stretching with that one. It definitely seems like a weird experiment/ritual gone wrong. Are there any lore theories regarding what it is?

 

[Gbraga]

just checked, nope.

Thanks!

Yeah, I fugred. Whatever they were trying to do, it didn't really seem to work out that well, haha.

This is also a boss I'm fuzzy on the lore, I'm still kinda clinging to the idea that it's supposed to be a physical body for Mergo/Oedon to be reborn in, but there's not really enough evidence aside from being in Yahar'gul and the boss' name.